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GeoffreyC

Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« on: June 15, 2003, 10:23:13 AM »
Perhaps we spend too much time harping on how various courses have been altered to their detriment and to the enjoyment of current and future members.

What are the examples of the best preserved work of MacDonald, Raynor, Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn, Park, Colt, Emmet and Travis?

And WHY-

For Tillinghast, I would nominate Fenway Golf Club.-  Gil Hanse worked with the Green Chairman Steve Frankel to thoroughly research the history of the course and accumulate photographic evidence of how it looked when first built.  Their goal was I think to put the course back to its original state. There was no softening of those marvelous greens at Fenway but instead they were reclaimed to their original size which allowed great pin locations and immaginative shot making optrions  Led by Rodney Hine, they used handwork and slow care to make sure that each bunker was artfully recreated to the best of the ability to interpret the photos possible. They worked methodically on the total project and only this year added the cross bunkering to the short drivable par 4 first hole.  Yes, there are too many trees but they are slowly removing some of them in the more obvious spots.  A sensitve architect and willing leader to convince the membership resulted in a supurb job.

I have not seen Baltimore CC or Somerset Hills but would enjoy comments from those who have.

MacDonald's NGLA is the obvious choice for best preserved of his works due to the dillagence of the in-house care.

Is Fishers Island Raynor's best preserved work?  If so why.

For Colt is it Royal Portrush, Muirfield or some other?

Lets try to find out what has worked well and maybe someone reading this can get some good ideas for their course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

T_MacWood

Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2003, 11:03:02 AM »
Chicago, Mayfield, Franklin Hills, Shoreacres and Lancaster (Ohio). The reason they haven't changed I suspect is a combination of conservativism and/or frugalness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2003, 11:15:29 AM »
From what I have seen of old photographs in the club's history book (as shown to Gib Papazian, Neal Meagher and me by a waitress at a public course grill room in San Mateo!), the Valley Club of Montecito seems to be much like the original by Alister MacKenzie, now that Tom Doak has restored many bunkers and the surrounds at most of the greens. Restored chipping areas like that to the right of #13 are terrific and a great improvement over the rough which was there in the past.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2003, 11:40:55 AM »
Bill- Yikes I forgot to include MacKenzie- my bad

I've not seen the Valley Club. Would those who have and also seen places like Alwoodley comment.  Perhaps Alwoodley would be an example of the frugal and conservative approach Tom MacWood mentioned.

Are Chicago and Shoreacres the best preserved Raynor? More then Fischers Island?  I've not seen any of these so I don't have a clue.  Didn't Shoreacres undergo a restoration by Tom Doak?  That would not be the frugal keeping what we have approach but a proactive one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

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Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2003, 05:49:34 PM »
From a previous post of mine:

From "The History of Tennessee Golf:"  

"Memphis Country Club is one of Tennessee's oldest clubs.  The club was organized in 1905 and the members were playing a nine-hole course designed by James Foulis, Jr.  Tom Bendelow added nine holes and then in 1910 Donald Ross rebuilt the course that is being played today.  Memphis Country Club green superintendent Rod Lingle discussed the course's history:

'This course opened in 1905.  I would be willing to bet this course - for as old as it is - has had less changes than any course in America.  The main reason is we are land locked.  We are on only about 105 acres.  We have old aerials that were taken in the 1920's.  All our tees and greens are in the same positions they were then.  We would like to stretch our course, but we can't because we are land locked.

I think about two thirds of our greens are the original 1905, perhaps 1910 greens.  People can't believe that but it's true.  They think you have to rebuild greens every fifteen to twenty years because they won't grow grass.  That's not true.  It depends on how those greens are maintained.  The greens that have been rebuilt are the second, the third (in 1999 by Lingle), the eighth probably, the ninth probably, the tenth before the 1948 U.S. Amateur, and the eighteenth probably.'"

The text goes on to say that John LeFoy restored the bunkers in 1989, moving only two fairway bunkers at the 14th, and the fairways were converted to zoysia in 1999.  That same year, the greens were re-seeded with Champion Bermuda.  

It has been twenty-five years since I played the course and only recall the volcano-like 4th (?) hole.  I plan to get over there some time this summer.  

The course's preservation is likely attributable to the longevity of both its greens chairmen and superintendents, all of which apparently service 30-40 years stints.  

BTW, for anyone with a Tennessee connection, the aforementioned book is a must-own.

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Paul_Turner

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Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2003, 07:41:16 PM »
Geoffrey

I agree that Muirfield and Portrush would be fine examples for Colt.  Muirfield had the 13th changed (I'm not sure if he was involved), some bunkers filled, and a handful added-post Colt.  Portrush looks completely unchanged, the 8th and 9th were added later when the clubhouse was moved, but Colt had planned for this.  But because he specialised on heath courses, then perhaps either Swinley Forest or St George's Hill should be picked.  Both are near pristine, although there's been a little bit of fiddling at Swinley recently.  At SGH, the 1st green was shifted, but I think Colt oversaw this, and I think a tier was removed from the 13th.  And of course, the bunkers on the famous 8th have been somewhat spoiled.  But other than that, it's as Colt built.

So lets go with Portrush for links, and Swinley for heath.

By and large, Colt's courses are very well preserved in the UK+Ireland.  In Europe it's a different story, mostly thanks to the Nazis.  I reckon the third links at Zoute in Belgium was a very fine course until it was bombed to pieces.

Alison's best untouched course in Japan is supposed to be Naruo-although this isn't all Alison's .  Hirono had its greens enlarged when the grass was changed, although the original contours are supposed to be kept intact.  I'm not sure if the greens at Kawana have been redone?  They're supposed to be quite a flat/tame set.  So I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2003, 07:42:39 PM »
From everything I've seen there I'd have to think that Fisher's Island G.C is well preserved. Another course in this district that's well preserved is Pine Valley and as ironic as it may seem in the broad scheme of things on this website another course in this district that's well preserved is MERION!! Maidstone is also pretty damn well preserved and Kittanset seems to me to be well preserved!

The course I've run across recently that is not well preserved at least in look is William Flynn's Pepper Pike--it's definitely overly immaculate. It looks to be a good golf course on very good land for golf but it looks to me as if the course is run by the Garden Club of America! Except the 2nd hole--that one looks like it should look in a Flynn design--a natural looking hole with the fescue along the left side.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Bruce Katona

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Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2003, 07:54:34 AM »
I had the pleasure to play Somerset Hills twice in the recent past. It is my understanding, from my host, the course is much the same as Tillinghast designed it. The fescues are up and the nine's are back to their original rotation. The membership had flopped them at some point in the past. The par 3 second hole , "the Redan" is as spectacular as it appears in pictures. Two other memorable par 3's are #12, a short iron across a corner of the on-site irrigation lake and #16, a mid iron to a well guarded green.

The greens are what we have all read about, with bends, twists, and mounds. The green most memorable to me is #13, a good par 4 with trees down the left side. The green has two huge waves through it. You need to putt the ball into the correct trough between the waves. You know you will have three putts on the course, but it is wonderful and plays +/- 6,400 yards from the back tees. You have the opportunity to use every club in your bag.

The knock on Somerset Hills is that it has 17 wonderful holes, then #18 a drive and pitch finishing hole. What's wrong with having the average player finish on a good note, with a birdie or par, right by the clubhouse. The nine's could be swithched for a tournament as #9 is a par 5 of moderate length, but why ??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Keith Williams

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Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2003, 07:57:05 AM »
In the Ross department we had probably ought to mention
Holston Hills C.C. as pretty well preserved.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2003, 11:38:17 AM »
I can't see NGLA or Somerset Hills in this category since they basically use the Augusta model for conditioning.  Personally I believe it has to be Maidstone, Newport or Fishers Island.

Maidstone and Newport are supposdly the only two courses left without irrigation systems.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2003, 04:44:46 PM »
Newport, Maidstone and Fishers for no fairway irrigation. Unfortunately after last summer the talk was Maidstone was considering one though. I think Fishers considered one a few years ago but they still don't have one, I don't think. When it came up for consideration, though, the anti-irrigation contingent was considering if they lost the battle to sabotage the plan by seeing that very small diameter pipes went in. That would have been amusing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Best Preserved courses from the Golden Age
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2003, 04:46:41 PM »
Joel:

NGLA and Somerset Hills uses the Augusta model for conditioning? What do you mean?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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