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ChipOat

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf, vot
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2003, 07:55:35 PM »
We did this thread last year, as well.  What's interesting this time is the number of U.K. candidates.

Most U.K. greens are too big to fit my profile of a great short par 4 or par 3 (Troon #8 excepted) so I'll go again with my same U.S. favorites:

Pine Valley #8 (alltime best)
Cypress #8 (Jay Sigel said it was the toughest hole all week
                  in the '81 Walker Cup)
Riviera #10
Winged Foot (West) #6

I'm sure that I've played at least 2 Pete Dye designs that would also qualify but they escape me at the moment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf, vot
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2003, 08:04:44 PM »
JimmyVA,
I have not seen many of the aforementioned holes but the 15th at World Woods is no slouch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Gene Greco

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf, vot
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2003, 01:21:01 AM »
First, I'm in agreement with TEPaul with respect to #17 at Crystal Downs. It does NOT belong in this category of the greatest short par 4s in the world. I will say nothing more.

The best from my perspective in no particular order:

Cypress Point #8

Cypress Point #9

Sand Hills #7

Sand Hills #8

Fenway #15

Friar's Head #5 (My favorite hole on the East End of Long Island - pure simple genius)

Bethpage Red #12

Cuscowilla #5

World Woods Pine Barrens #15

Maidstone #17

National Golf Links #2

National Golf Links #1

National Golf Links #14

Pine Valley #17

The BEST............................................................................


Coaches Poll      Sand Hills #7
Writers Poll        Cypress Point #9
BCS                  National Golf Links #1

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Mike Clayton

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf, vot
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2003, 04:18:42 AM »
10 west Royal Melbourne is the best 300 yard hole I have seen anywhere.So many options and so many clubs to hit.

14 at NSW is a great hole too.
11 Sunningdale
8 and 14 Portmarnock were a bit longer -maybe 350 yds- but fun and tough in the wind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John Foley

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf, vot
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2003, 06:14:39 AM »
How about:

#7 & #8 at Sand Hills
#12 @ TPC Sawgrass
#1 Pacific Dunes
#15 WW Pine Barrens
#14 Hiawatha
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Integrity in the moment of choice

Stan Dodd

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2003, 09:20:24 AM »
Two votes for different holes at Cruden Bay #8 and #12, worthy choices,  but my favorite at Cruden is the 3rd.  Risk Reward tee shot, and a green that is not easy to chip to sometimes the putter from 30 or 40 yards is the best play.  With  a nice view of the village of Port Erroll.  Anice "breather before the challenges of 4, 5 , 6 and 7.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig_Dex

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2003, 09:44:19 AM »
Before the Ryder Cup last year, I always thought that #10 at the Belfry (Brabazon Course) was a great short par-4.

Great risk/reward, perfect match play hole, particularly in fourball play - let your shorter hitting partner play safe, then you go for it.

The angle of the green and its narrow shape, and the water looming, made it a thinking man's hole.  Unfortunately, Sam Torrance moved the tee box back and right, esentially making it a boring hole.  Changing/lengthening it was unnecessary - especially for the Ryder Cup.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mitch Hantman

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2003, 03:47:18 PM »
#18 at TOC is the original classic short 4
#1 at GCGC!
#13 at Loblolly Pines, Hobe Sound, Fl - it's 267 yards, drivable, but potentially can shoot a big number. Many ways to play it.
#13 at Indian Creek is a perfect example of risk/reward short 4

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mitch Hantman

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2003, 03:50:49 PM »
I forgot about Easthampton GC #9 and #11!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2003, 04:04:03 PM »
A few great short par 4's in the Philadelphia area are # 16 at Philadelphia Country Club, 2nd shot is often on a downhill lie into a green that is totally bunkered and as thin as dental floss. #'s 7 & 8 at Merion are not mentioned as much as 11, but they are wonderful and obiously 16 is truly spectacular.  
Lookaway golf club has two great short par 4's ( #7 and # 9) and #2 at my home course Philly Cricket is a classic short par 4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Andy

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2003, 04:28:57 PM »
I will say:

10 West Royal Melbourne
14 Gleneagles Kings
12 Talking Stick North
6 Troon North Pinnacle
8 Cypress
9 Cypress
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brian Phillips

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2003, 10:24:52 AM »
The best modern designed short Par 4 at the moment in my young opinion is :

No. 6 at Kingsbarns.  You will read all about it and get a sketch in Paul Daley's 2nd volume.  Ronan Branigan chose and wrote a short essay for the book as his favourite hole from every other hole he has ever played.

The best old design short Par 4 could be :

No. 3 at Cruden Bay
No. 11 Sunningdale

I can't understand how number 17 at PV is a good short Par 4?

Cheers

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

JSlonis

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2003, 10:46:50 AM »
Brian,

What is your issue with #17 at Pine Valley?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brian Phillips

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2003, 04:28:11 AM »
JSlonis,

I don't feel there is enough strategy in the hole to be classed as one of the best short Par 4's in the world.

At 267 yards you run out of fairway as another waste area covers the approach.  So all you basically do off the tee is decide how close you want to get to that waste area.

The green is round and two tiered falling towards the player and to the left so again it is all about hitting the correct club.  The green is above the fairway so you can't really much of the green.

It is a good hole but not in my opinion a great short par 4.

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Ken Fry

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2003, 04:31:27 PM »
No one has mentioned #5 at Crystal Downs.  Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2003, 06:28:29 PM »
Hard not to pick Riviera #10 after this weekend. Whatta great hole!

Speaking of great...

#7 Sand Hills
## 1 and 6 Pacific Dunes
#4 Grandote Peaks
#15 (?) Wild Horse


What sets all these holes apart? Really interesting/tricky/unique greens and surrounds.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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somalley

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2003, 07:46:24 PM »
1-#9 Cypress Point
2-#16 Royal County Down(played it in an eightsome!)
3-#2 NGLA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jamie_Duffner

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2003, 07:49:46 PM »
#3 ANGC - an overlooked hole and maybe the best par 4 on the course.

#1 GCGC

Gene - #12 at Bethpage Red is a great call.  One thing the Black misses.

#8 - Shinnecock
#9 - Harbour Town
#3 - Ocean Course (I think it's #3)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gene Greco

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2003, 11:08:08 PM »
Jamie:

Glad someone has seen it and agrees with me regarding this Tillinghast marvel.

#15 World Woods is VERY similar.

Fazio is now caught fibbing as his inspiration HAD to be #12 at the Red, one from the Golden Age.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

JThompson

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2003, 10:51:09 PM »
Why don't you try No. 10 at Riviera?  I played it last week and hit a driver.  I hit one of the palm trees to the left of the green, and my ball went into the bunker to the right of the green.  I skulled my bunker shot over the green and hit my loft wedge into the left bunker.  I hit my next shot over the green and then fluffed a pitch into the bunker.  My bunker shot landed on the green but rolled off the green.  I then took three putts for a 9.  That was on my way to a 79 for the day!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RT

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2003, 02:15:06 AM »
No. 14, Ganton. Marvelous short par-4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2003, 05:57:56 AM »
Brian Phillips;

You've make a good point in questioning the real strategic or optional interest in the tee shot strategy on PVGC's #17. As it is now it is an elongated bowl shaped fairway and obviously the deal from the tee is to just get it on that somewhere as far up as possible.

However, that particular hole used to have a really interesting alternate right fairway (ever so slightly connected to the present left one). The right fairway used to be about 30-35 yds wide and is now mostly in trees. There are even some neat little narrow shallow bunkers way up to the right where it used to be. The entire right side of that hole even way up by the green was also not in trees originally.

The optional strategies when that right fairway was there were really interesting, nuancy and meaningful. Matter of fact, the green was actually designed to make that right fairway option very much the desired choice for a lot of reasons. And I'm not speculating about that because I've got the architect's thinking in writing!

If they were to restore that right fairway today they would have to rethink and redo some things up there somehow to restore the basic risk/reward balance it used to have because of the vastly different distance situations off the tee today compared to back then. There is quite a lot of room up there though to do some things I think. But somehow they'd have to make that right option as risky as it once was and they'd also need to do something at the green-end to make the reward what it used to be too--because evolution has definitely had an effect on the green-end reward.

Why that fairway went out of existence is one of the more interesting stories of the evolution of a hole I think I've ever heard of.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2003, 02:07:12 PM »
No one mentioned the 10th at Merion / East?

Doug Wright: Agree completely with you on the 15th at Wild Horse.

The 4th at Plainfield isn't shabby either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Neil Regan

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Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2003, 10:23:49 PM »
How about Winged Foot East #17 ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JDoyle

Re: Now we'll do the best Short Par 4 in golf,vote
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2003, 07:53:02 AM »
People have mentioned #5 & #17 at Oakmont, however, IMHO #2 is the best short par 4 on the course.

The tee shot has the player pulling nearly any club from the bag.  I have hit a driver and I have hit a six iron with the wind helping.  

The second shot is terrific.  The green is piched back to front.  Anything long is dead because you can't stop the ball coming back and your third shot will be a pitching wedge.

Anything just on the green or short gets returned to your feet.  Its my favorite hole on the course.

Other favorites: #17 at PV, #2 at NGLA and #7 at CC of Fairfield.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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