[Joseph_J]

Which Golfweek issue will Dunlop White's article be in then? I do not have this week's issue, but I cannot wait. Thanks for the heads-up!

[JakaB]

Buck,

Worse than Bellerive being underrated is Butler National not being rated at all.....I love Bellerive more than I would have dreamed...despite some of the mistakes RR has made...but again its not Yalelike mistakes.   My problem is I just have not played enough courses to know whats high or whats low...but I do know enough to guess at what should be at all or should go.

If SLCC goes through with the restoration...it should jump...almost like an intentional shake and bake.

[Paul Richards]

Jaka:

I agree with you.  Butler National should not only be on the Modern list, but it should easily be in the top 40 or 50.
 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Kiawah hosts a big outing for Golfweek raters.  Ocean Course jumps to 15.  Cassique debuts at 58 and gets the cover photo.

Atlantic hosts an outing for the Golfweek raters, not a normal thing for a very private club to do.  Brad Klein was involved with the writing of the Atlantic Breeze Hill book.  Atlantic jumps 40 spots.

Do you think maybe more than gca is invovled in this rating game?  

Victoria National hosted the raters last year and actually dropped around 7 spots...  'nuf said...

[yetanotherguest]

How in the world is Rustic Canyon not on the modern list?

I find it hard to believe that not enough raters managed to play it when I see that Harvester GC in Rhodes, Iowa (!) had enough raters visit to get it on the list.

Is GW's ratings panel and therefore its list geographically biased?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Guest - The GOLFWEEK raters submit overall ratings for courses seen in lifetime EACH year.  A compressed 1 to 10 scale is used where a 6.5 is about the cutoff for top 100.

Joseph - the White article can be read both in the recent edition and on-line at www.golfweek.com.

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Ken F:

With all due respect Winged Foot / West and Riviera are more thorough in exposing weaknesses than Prairie Dunes and Fisher's Island respectively. If you look at all four courses and take away the unpredictable aspects of wind and weather and simply examine each of the courses against each other in my mind it's no contest. And my assessment is not based solely on the aspect of difficulty as you mentioned.

I thoroughly enjoyed the times I've played Prairie Dunes and Fisher's Island but we're talking apples and oranges here when WF / West and Riviera are pushed THAT FAR down the listing.

Regarding Hazeltine -- the course is a bit better than many on GCA might think. The additional changes that were carried out by Rees Jones work out well and my point rested more on the case of Interlachen and White Bear both breaking into the top 50. Here's two examples where the pedigree of the designer and the aspect of quirk have received more fanfare than they rightly should, in my opinion.

I do have to offer a mea cupla I mispoke in stating that Hazeltine did not make the top 100 -- it did among the modern listing.

It's good to see more modern courses were cited -- 35 altogether from the resort and municipal side of the ledger but 20 were grouped together in the second fifty of that total.

Couple of points -- how does the Irish Course at Whistling Straits crack the top 100 modern? In my book it benefits from close proximity to the main layout. No way is this course a top 100 modern selection. It's Pete Dye (who I admire greatly) gone beserk!

There is no way that Arcadia Bluff (#26) is that far ahead of The Kingsley Club (#56). I'd love to see the rating analysis / evaluation of those who played both courses and have them explain to me how they see the courses being that far apart.

Minus the immediate nature of Lake Michigan to the property of Arcadia I don't see much difference between the courses at all. In my mind it's a dead heat at worst and TKC slightly ahead.

Couple of others to wonder about ...

Eugene CC (#33)
Quintero (#45)
Lost Dunes (#48) It's good no doubt ... but that good?
Raven Course at Snowshoe Mountain (#54) surely someone jests!
Links at ND at Red Mike Resort -- like the course but is it really that good at #57 or is it a testament to its remote location?

On the flip side ...

How does Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon (Mesquite, NV) only get in at #98? The course is, in my opinion, the 2nd best in the Silver State.

On the plus side ...

Kudos to the placement of Paa-Ko-Ridge, but how does Pinon Hills not make it from the same state?

More to follow ...

[corey miller]

Matt- It would seem when comparing Prairie Dunes, Fishers island and WF west it would be unwise to take away the unpredictable aspects of wind and weather.

In spite of what some have said on this site, I am sure that Maxwell took wind into account wind in planning PD.

The only rational you give between the  four courses is that WF and Riviera are "thourogh examinations of complete game of golf".  Maybe it would be more instructive to look at the criteria that Golfweek raters use as the thread is comment on the ratings.  I do not see resistance to scoring.  Also, it may be wise to analyze these course from the tees that most people actually play from.

[Paul Turner]

Squaring off the tees and removing mounds behind greens and Atlantic jumps 37 places    I know that mounds were removes at the 5th and 15th, anywhere else?

I'm surprised such cosmetic factors have that much influence!

[Guest]

Paul Turner,

Perhaps the course was worthy of higher praise in the past and didn't get it.

A large number of panelists recently visited the course.
Could it be that collectively they thought the course deserved a better ranking ?

[Paul Turner]

Guest

Perhaps you're right.  I didn't care for the course, so wouldn't agree with that judgment.  But I would like to know what the course changes were in their entirety as these were suggested as being influential in the magazine article.

[Ken Fujioka]

Matt Ward

* What is compelling about Hazeltine's architecture?  The Open Doctors RT Jones and Rees Jones don't have a sufficient pedigree? You must be jesting.

* Does charm = quirk?

* Should Riviera get a pass for the ravages of the despoiler?

* You seem to be fixed on exposing weaknesses, is that THE paramount consideration when judging a golf course? Which golf course is more thorough in exposing weaknesses, Cypress Point or Firestone?

[THuckaby2]

Patrick/Brad

As I implied on another thread on this general topic, the only course I have played which was glaring in its omission was Applebrook, which I would rate in the Top 10-20 New (comparing it very favorably to the several other top 10-20 "New" courses that I have played).

As an afterthought, I would also add two Harbottle tracks Stevinson Ranch and Cinnabar Hills (Huckaby is going to kill me for that latter mention!) as courses which are every bit as good as say #94 Barona Creek (which I have also played and is very good!).  If the inaugural King's Putter had been held at Stevinson rather than Barona, might not the GW rankings have been just a wee bit different......?

Actually Rich, I'm with you on nearly all of this.  I'd say each of these courses are damn good courses (even Cinnabar!), and in ratings I've done for GD (different criteria than what GW uses, so take with ocean of salt) would come out in this order:

1. Applebrook
2. Barona
3. Stevinson
4. Cinnabar

with each getting pretty darn high ratings and the differences between them being VERY, VERY slight.  As I say, each is a damn fine golf course, even my beloved/be-hated second home Cinnabar.

The key here is that in any ranking, the numerical differences are so tiny, #90 (on the list) would be just a tiny, tiny bit better than #125 (not on the list).

I believe that's what happened with each of these.

As for Barona/Stevinson, well... few people not from the Bay Area do get out to Stevinson, that's for sure.  Perhaps a big gathering of nuts like us would have helped things for that wonderful golf course.  Who knows.  I just do know the ratings I gave for all four above are so close as to being negligible from 1-4, really... and I doubt I differed much from how the GW raters I know would rate these... but the differences, while negligible to me, would be enough to put one on the list, others not.  That's the main point here.

TH

[Jim_H]

Tom MacWood--
I also noticed that Fazio has many more rated courses than does Pete Dye (19 vs. 13)--and I do think that you can draw some conslusions from this, as you asked.  I also noted that in the top 10 Modern courses Dye has 3 or 4 to Fazio's 1.  I conclude (as I have before) that Fazio is a more consistent--but less brillant--designer of courses.  Fazio is consistently B+, but I have played many of his courses and have never seen an A.  Pete Dye is much less consistent, but he swings for the fences and strikes out a lot.  I love many of his courses (e.g.,Whistling Straits), but can't stand to play others (e.g., PGA West).  If I were building a golf course, I'd take my chances with Dye.  Comments?  

[JohnV]

Jim_H, how many courses have Fazio and Dye done?  As a percentage of courses done, I'd be surprised if Dye's rate of inclusion isn't higher, but I might be wrong.

[Matt Kardash]

I wouldn't be surprised if Fazio has done at least 2 or 3 times as many courses as Dye. How many Pete Dye courses are there?Less than 100?

[RC (Guest)]

For any GW raters, I am curious as to the reasons for Lancaster's tumble of 27 spots between 2001 and 2003 on the Classical list.  I'm not challenging the rating, there are a number of courses that seem to jump around, but I am looking for an understanding as to what about these courses causes such shifts.

[John_Conley]

Nothing about the course triggered anything.  In most cases it is just a statistical variance.  #1 to #28 would be meaningful.  #55 to #73 wouldn't.

[Jeff_Lewis]

John Conley

Are you a GW rater?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Harbottle's work....I have not played Cinnabar but have played Stevinson Ranch.  I would suggest that Stevinson is not even Harbottle's best work. I prefer his Olympic Course at Gold Mountain in Bremerton Washington.  The Olympic Course is rated as the best public in Washington State on the Golfweek list.  

[John_Conley]

John Conley

Are you a GW rater?

yes

(P.S.  I'm 100% with you on the anon posts.)

[Matt_Ward]

Corey M:

My elevation of WF / West and Riviera has less to do with toughness but in being thorough during the course of a round. Yes, both courses have a high degree of difficulty but always remember the sheer depth of qualities that Tillinghast and Thomas imbued on these two sensational layouts. You can easily name no less than six holes on each layout that are as good as any holes you will find on many other courses in the USA.

Prairie Dunes and Fisher's Island are two wonderful layouts, however, they each overdose a bit much on the short and quirk style that is unique to their design, in my opinion.

I'm only speaking on a separation that is very fine. Look, all four (4) courses are a joy to play and I mean no disrespect to the gem from Kansas and Fisher's Island. I know "resistance to scoring" is not a part of the GW evaluation and my argument for WF/ West and Riviera did not mean to accentuate this element although I do believe it must be accounted for in some way.

Ken F:

I'm not making Hazeltine into God's gift to golf but it sure has more on the ball than Interlachen and White Bear. Do those two courses slip in simply because of the fact that Donald Ross had a hand with both.

I think when one looks at Interlachen and White Bear you're talking more about character and brownie points tied to the name of Ross than anything else. Both courses are good -- they just don't have enough pizzazz in my book to merit even a top 100 placement.

I never proclaimed Hazeltine great -- I just said it had more to offer than many might concede. I guess you must have missed last year's PGA and how the 16th hole (a Rees Jones creation!) elevated itself into one of the finest mid-length par-4's we have in America, in my humble opinion. The course was a dog during the 1970 Open and much of what was there has been altered. I'm not nominating it for sainthood but the course has clearly improved since then.

When you talk about Riviera please tell me in specific detail how the course has become so much LESS in your book. The composite type of holes that are still there are dynamic and so rich in utter detail. I won't go into further detail because if you REALLY know Riviera you would likely agree. The course is more than tough it's timeless.

Your pitting of Cypress against Firestone is also laughable. I understand full well the composite greatness of Cypress and I have even posted on the GolfWeek ratings on GCA how high Firestone South really is because it is one-dimensional in so many respects.

You seem to equate being tested as being some all out desirability for toughness. That's not my point or argument. I respect courses that test you completely -- the fullest range of shots in the fullest and richest diversity of holes. I see WF/ West and Riviera doing that beyond what others might think about Prairie Dunes and Fisher's Island -- two layouts that I have the highest respect for. I don't see them being that far above the qualities of WF / West and Riviera. Pure and simple.

[Ken Fujioka]

Matt Ward

* The 16th at Hazeltine made for some arresting golf, I was reminded of the dread created at TPC. It did not strike me as a particularly well designed golf hole, in many respects "one-demensional".

* Beyond your lickerishness for the 16th, what is compelling about Hazeltine's architecture?

* Regarding Riviera the American author Geoff Shackelford said "from an architectural point of view, (the changes) are awful." The bunker on the seventh hole is "hideous, way too big, not close to what the original one looked like." The enlarged green at the 13th hole and the new crowned front at the eighth are out of character. The new risk/reward 8th is silly.

* Should Riviera get a pass for the deflowering of George Thomas?

* It is your expression "exposing weakness". You used it to gauge the virtuosity of four golf courses. Which golf course is more thorough in exposing weaknesses, Cypress Point or Firestone?
 

[JS]

As pointed out before (and now deleted?), the great improvement of the rating of Atlantic, Cassique and Kiawah after hosting a Golfweek panelist outing is very fishy!  Shouldn't this question of rater's objectivity at least be discussed?

[Brad Klein]

JS - The River Course at Kiawah and GC at Briars Creek also hosted recent Golfweek outings - to no avail in terms of top-100 ratings. The same for past forays to Reynolds Plantation, Haig Point, Sea Island Golf Club-Seaside and Pinehurst Nos. 4 & 8. Since co-hosting a Raters Cup in 2001, Victoria National in Indiana dropped 18 spots and the other co-host, French Lick Springs, doesn't even qualify for top-5 public access in Indiana. Do you see a pattern there, too?

By the way, when GCA holds an outing at Rustic Canyon and the course garners rave reviews, do you conclude the results are manipulated? Or when Doak debuts Pacific Dunes to an audience of design fans at Archpalooza I and they laud it, is that fishy, too?

You don't understand the point of an outing, which is to bring people together to discuss one golf course and gather common experience. I can't think of anything better for establishing a baseline for ratings. But it doesn't produce uniform outcomes and certainly doesn't guarantee positive ones.

One of the reasons I gave up university teaching after 14 years is because I got tired of people who think ignorance is cool.

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