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McCloskey

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2003, 03:44:05 PM »

There are several courses that I believe are worthy to be in the Top 100, for sure.  But everyone has their own opinion, so I will not bore you with mine.  However, I will say, that if Spring Creek Ranch in Collierville, Tn. fails to make any list, I think you should just fold up the list and calmly toss it in the trash can.  It can't be worth the paper it is written on.  But, that is jmho.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #101 on: March 16, 2003, 06:25:53 PM »
What I notice is that there must be a time lag in a courses opening hoopla and it's ultimate placement on the list. Assuming of course it is worthy of consideration, So the above statement about a course I have never heard of in Tn. is blanket and without reason.
There is a course here in Nm. that in my opinion qualifies but I doubt enough people have seen it to evaluate it properly but given time the word will spread and then the panelists will come and it will make the list. The course I am talkin about is Twin Warriors and if variety were the major criteria, it would/could be number 1. But is the list falty for the omission? No, it just isn't timely enough to keep pace with a dsl mentality.

Mclosky- Could you tell us all about Spring creek and why it is so worthy and who designed it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #102 on: March 16, 2003, 07:22:14 PM »
There are pros and cons to the "group" training idea.  You can argue it either way.  GD doesn't like it because they feel it can create "consensus" voting vs. individual voting.  They donít want everyone thinking the same way.  They want a wide range of opinions and ideas (and votes) as to what constitutes a great course.  So be it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #103 on: March 17, 2003, 05:40:29 AM »
McClosky,

Please give details on Spring Creek Ranch.  I must confess that I have never heard of it.  When was it built?  By whom?  Is it a housing development?  Public or Private?  Where is Collierville, TN in relation to a big city?

I would love to hear about another hidden gem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #104 on: March 17, 2003, 08:19:27 AM »
No record of it on Golfcourse.com.

Trader Jack:  How many of Golfweek's Top 100 Modern have you played?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #105 on: March 17, 2003, 08:22:18 AM »
http://greensmithtexas.com/id27.htm

Here is some construction in Memphis.  Don't know the timeframe on this Nicklaus course.  I find it unlikely that the course is on ANYONE'S rankings.  If it were, someone here would be familiar.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #106 on: March 17, 2003, 08:24:57 AM »
From this, I gather it may have been open for a few years.

FAX: (901) 321-3266

Date: April 17, 2001

Christian Brothers University Golf Tournaments Benefit Athletic Scholarships Spring Creek Ranch Golf Challenge on June 18

Brother Mark Sullivan Tournament on October 8

Memphis, TN--This summer, Mid-South golfers will have the opportunity to play on a new Jack Nicklaus' designed golf course and benefit student athletes attending Christian Brothers University. Nominated as one of the country's best new private courses, Spring Creek Golf Ranch will be the setting for a CBU golf tournament on Monday, June 18. The golf course at Spring Creek measures 7,341 yards from the longest set of tees and all holes offer distinct challenges, testing even the most accomplished golfer.

Sponsorship for a team to participate in the Spring Creek Ranch Golf Challenge is $2,500. Other sponsorship opportunities are title sponsor ($10,000); awards ceremony ($5,000); lunch ($2,500); cart ($1,000); and putting contest ($500).

On Monday, October 8, golfers can again participate in the annual Brother Mark Sullivan Memorial Golf Tournament at Galloway Course. The cost is $150/player or $600/team. Open to the public, the Brother Mark Sullivan tournament is traditionally part of CBU's alumni reunion weekend and will be the culminating event of this year's reunion weekend, October 5-8.

Mike Daush, CBU Director of Athletics, believes the Spring Creek Ranch Golf Challenge and the Brother Mark Sullivan Tournament are great opportunities to raise athletic scholarships and visibility for the University: "By sponsoring a foursome, you can spend a day playing golf with business associates and friends on one of the country's premiere golf course and help some outstanding student athletes."

Space for the Spring Creek Challenge is limited to 22 teams. The schedule includes lunch at 11:30 a.m.; a shotgun start at 1:00 p.m.; and cocktails, food, and awards ceremony at 5:30 p.m. For registration and sponsorship information, contact Mike Daush at 321-3374.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #107 on: March 17, 2003, 09:09:20 AM »
Adam C:

I've played Twin Warriors and it's a fine course -- no doubt. Is it really better than the trio below from the Land of Enchantment? Think about it.

Paa Ko Ridge
Pinon Hills (How was the layout left off???)
*The soon to be opened Black Mesa (played a few holes last year when it was quite rough -- I believe the opening is set for May this year).

I believe TW might sneak in for a top 100 modern but if anything, in my opinion, it would be more towards the range between 80-100.

P.S. The tacky waterfall par-3 really needs to go! I also thinkt he back nine is far superior to the front.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

McCloskey

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #108 on: March 17, 2003, 04:48:26 PM »

Clay Man

You may be entirely correct regarding the time lapse on a course receiving appropriate recognition.  Spring Creek Ranch, however, was selected the 2nd in the Best New Private in GD either last year or the year before.  Therefore, I am surprised that it is an unknown on this board.  I thought I even remembered some discussion about it a while back.  I could be wrong.
It is a terrific golf course and I was told it was being considered for some major pro and/or amateur event.  I think the central US location is appealing to those in authority.  Collierville TN is just east of Memphis.  The course is by Nicklaus and is a core course without housing.  I thought it was really good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #109 on: March 17, 2003, 05:19:32 PM »
Matt- I played Twin Warriors in the afternoon and as I recall you played it soft in the a.m.. I was very impressed on several fronts and I think it's variety was one of the most redeeming factors. The other positives I felt were noteworthy was the routing and use of the natural terrain. The serenity of the site and vetted bunkers also added to my experience there. As for the waterfall I can see past it as hokey and felt that the hole was not adversly affected by it's placement. Also, because it was actually 14 smaller falls cascading over and between the rocks I found it more natural looking than any others Ive seen.

The problem I have with Paa Ko is the apparent lack of any strategy needed off the tee or on approach. Opposed to pinon where the strategy is dictated by the pin location on those wonderfully angled greens and green sections.

I was floored by Twin Warriors closing holes along the snakeheads ridge and again the variety was refreshing. I will admit that I was expecting a resort type course because that's how the GM described it to me on the phone. Needless to say I haven't seen a resort course save for Pebble that had that many cross carries. I will be back there soon and perhaps I will damper my enthusiasm but as of now I feel it is the best in the state.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #110 on: March 18, 2003, 10:17:13 AM »
Adam C:

Next time I'm in the Albuquerque area I'll play TW in the afternoon to see firsthand the firm and fast conditions you describe. I do like the course -- just not as much as you. Are you elevating TW to your top 25 public or even higher?

Do yourself a big favor Adam -- get over to Black Mesa. I believe you may be looking at another #1 in NM. I'm heading there this summer to see it again -- the layout is indeed impressive and the lack of housing clutter only adds to the experience.

By the way -- there is plenty of strategic options at Paa Ko. My only issue with my return visit was the vast amount of H20 being applied to the layout.

Didn't get your comments on how Pinon Hills didn't crack GW's top 100 modern. What's your take on that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #111 on: March 18, 2003, 04:16:59 PM »
Matt- Pinon didn't make it last year either. So it was no surprise this year. The reasons for it not making the top 100 are probably many and beyond my understanding of the process. But, if you ask me the policies of management(city manager) has led the public golfer to not see past the maintenance woes and concentrate on the architecture. To me, under the surface is the same masterpiece Ken Dye built 14 years ago. But when you have a super who's underpaid and has a staff of maybe one other GCS professional it has to be a tough gig to keep on top of things. I spoke with Mr. Dye and both he and the landscape archie are well aware of the abuse of the irrigation system. They pump 900 acre feet thru a system designed for 500. The result is busted pipes and leaks that are slow to be fixed. The digging of french drains has also led to inferior conditions. As much praise as you have put on the city for their foresight to build a marvelous course is seriously diminished when you learn that have abused the enterprise fund to the extent that a new piece of equiptment hasn't been purchased in almost ten years.


As for Paa Ko, I am interested in the strategic options you found. I recall it as either hit the fairway landing area or suffer. That to me is not an option. Also, the overall shape of the greens (mostly oval) made picking a particular side of the fairway to place your tee shot inconsiquential. I didn't play the way back tees as I'm sure you did but even so I don't see the strategy difference in the way back tees. Where am I wrong?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: GolfWeek's ratings, What surprises you ? And w
« Reply #112 on: March 18, 2003, 04:33:30 PM »
Adam C:

Thanks for the update on Pinon -- but given the names of other courses that made the top 100 modern list by GW I'm still shaking my head at the omission of the course. I wish them well with the internal issues.

At Paa Ko the key depends upon the amount of H20 they apply. If the course is hard and fast then all options come into play -- starting with whether or not you should hit driver on a number of holes.

Let me mention just one example because my time is short now -- the par-5 15th is a superb hole. The fairway bottlenecks the further you hit it. Long hitters have to ask themselves if the gain is worth the risk. Push or pull too much and you're looking for trouble. The second shot also places a great deal of thinking upon the player. I've reached the hole in two when conditions were firm but the shot is no bargain if you're not striping it.

One other quick example -- the 18th follows the same pattern. The long par-4 7th is also another good hole because you must shape the shot or you run out of real estate. I;m not making Paa Ko out for sainthood but the course is no less a test than TW and if firm and fast probably tougher because of the situations I just mentioned. Next time I'm in town I hope to see TW when it plays fast.

The problem Adam is that many NM courses apply too much water and the very nature of what the architect originally intended is thrwarted.

The one hole I don't much care for at Paa Ko is the first par-3 -- the 4th. The cuckoo green takes away what should have been a much saner decision on the design of the green.

I'll say this again for those who care -- NM golf is vastly underrated and it's time people took off the Ray Charles glasses and noticed it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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