[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I agree with you on the case by case evaluation.
The problem lies in who is doing the evaluating.

I find it interesting that the club sacrificed three holes to create a practice range.  Have you had the opportunity to read the committee and board minutes relative to the range's creation ?

At inception, most Tillinghast courses were void of ranges or meaningful ranges, perhaps a throwback to the scarcity of adjacent ranges in Scotland.  Some Ross courses were also built with no range or a minimal range area at best.

In looking at the aerial photos of Gulph Mills it would appear that suitable range space was available across the road or nearby.  In 1926, before the crash, it looks like the club could have purchased any nearby land that they wanted.  
How and why was the Varian Tract lost to the club ?  
Was that the club's practice area until it was lost ?

In the 70's courses were altered to accomodate tennis courts as the tennis fad took hold at country/golf clubs, permanently ruining many a golf course for the temporary benefit of a fad that petered out.

There can be no disputing that finances and the expanding needs of a changing membership were responsible for the alteration of many golf courses.

All too often the treehouse likes to lay the blame on the consulting architect, when in actuality, it is the forces within the clubhouse that are the responsible or irresponsible parties.

Had Pine Valley become a "family" club, with a "family" culture 50-60-70 years ago, I have little doubt that it would be vastly different than its current form.

It appears that most are grateful that Pine Valley has retained its original culture, so why is there any support for attempts to change the culture at ANGC ?

[TEPaul]

"How and why was the Varian Tract lost to the club ?  
Was that the club's practice area until it was lost ?"

Pat:

It sure was their practice area. The club leased the Varian tract annually until the Varians decided to sell the land. They offered it in it's entirety to the club and the negotiating over the price lasted for a few years if you can believe it and eventually the club decided they didn't want to pay what the Varians were asking which might have only been about $1,000 apart.

Basically it was one of the most boneheaded moves I've ever heard of--and about 20 years later resulted in the club deciding to create a range on one of the Ross fairways. One of our members heard RTJ was over at Merion, he went over and got him and RTJ spent about 15 minutes at GMGC and planned how the range would take the 10th fairway. That of course meant the 10th 12th and 13th holes had to be redesigned which RTJ did. It was a poor move all the way around beginning with not buying the Varian Tract. Later they built houses on the Varian tract and golfers playing off the first tee too often sliced drives over the road at the houses so the 1st hole was shortened from a par 5 to a par 4 in the 1960s. In our restoration right now we're shortening the hole even more, repositioning the tees and directing the drive a bit more left.

So this will show how a poor single decison often has a snowballing effect over time.

Basically if any club has an opportunity to buy land around the course it should bite the bullet and do it. Every club I know who had that opportunity and didn't do it ends up regretting it. And of course selling club or course land almost always turns out to be a regret sometimes of major proportions!

As Mr O'Hara said to Scarlett;

"The most important thing is the land Katie Scarlett--the land!"

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It is amazing how smart business people who are members of clubs make horrendous decisions regarding the club, and how club after club makes the EXACT SAME mistake, selling off adjacent property or not buying adjacent property when it becomes available.  I'd rather overpay for the land, amortize the mistake over time, and benefit from the purchase for life, than let it go to another buyer for another use.  And the amazing thing is that most of these clubs had wealthy members and could have easily afforded the purchase.

As I said before, club politics not architects are the driving forces responsible for altering golf courses.

Interesting story.
An piece of land bordering the 9th fairway at Preakness Hills came up for sale years ago.  Several members and Board members had the vision to recommend the purchase of the land by the club.  The Board and Club refused.  
One Board member who had been ardently advocating the purchase of the land by the club, Irving Brawer, then bought the land himself, and later sold it to the club at his cost.  That land now provides a very good practice facility, where once there was none.
That purchase probably saved the course from GM type reconfiguring and helped established a "GOLF CULTURE" at the club.

One man with vision often makes the difference, unfortunately, in a club run by committees, boards and membership democracy, he often gets outvoted.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I don't think there is a single one of us that can't respect how well Gordon Brewer & Ernie Ransome have protected the course in the past years. Some changes may have been not perfect, but still the integrityty of Pine Valley remains and thats what is most important. If needed, I would gladly stand in front of the gates and sacrifice myself to opposing gunfire to help protect that integrity.

Disgusta National is another complete story. I have no desire to ever see Augusta, simply because I don't care to see how it has been destroyed from exactly the opposite integrity that has taken place at Pine Valley. i don't care if certain people are reading this. Go ahead and put my name on a list of people that aren't even allowed in the city of Augusta. they should be ashamed of themselves for having such a perfect place--and then let the TOURNAMENT--the one thing that Bobby Jones warned of--dictating the way the club was ran on day to day operation in consideration to its members. I think the tournament has become bigger then the golf course itself, and I think the position of chairman has become as such too.

So I ask, to you all participating on this thread--can you actually justify what has happened at Augusta--condone it, and then turn around and say you hope that Pine Valley remains protected?

I can only hope so.

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

At first I thought it was a typo but then a second later it hit me---DISGUSTA NATIONAL!?!?

You may have just coined an American architectural phrase somewhat akin to the "Augusta Syndrome".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

If you had never heard of ANGC, never seen it, knew nothing of its history, and I had it in my power to arrange for us to play it.  After your round, I think that you would rave about the golf course, the fun and challenge of playing it.

It was a very good golf course when I played it, and I can't phantom that I would think otherwise today, even with the changes that have taken place since I last played it.

That doesn't mean that I endorse every change, but, I've learned to accept what is.   The routing and the underlying architecture are so good that they defy modifications to date.

I also want to state for the record, that I believe that the
16th, 10th and 7th holes are better today, than in their original form, hence, I believe that some changes are for the better, but that's just my opinion based on my play of the golf course.

And, ANGC isn't the only club to have made changes.
Pine Valley has undergone changes too.

Holes have had new tees added to provide extra length.
# 16 is a perfect example.  I think it might have been created just for the Walker Cup, so even Pine Valley is influenced by the play of better golfers.
Gone is the double fairway on # 17.
A second green was added at # 9
A second green was added at # 8
What about the invasive undergrowth and trees that were allowed to influence lines of play and the play of the golf course, do you see that as a positive ?

Don't be so harsh on ANGC.

I know that you have dart boards with Hootie's, Stephens's and Robert's faces on them, but, it's still a great golf course.

But, are you saying, in front of all these witnesses, that if I had it in my power to get you to play the golf course, that you'll refuse ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

WELL............. I'M WAITING  

[TEPaul]

Hey, Pat, have you ever played Pine Valley in a parallel universe?

Didn't think so! So would you mind sticking to the FACTS and refrain from discussing changes to a course you've never played? That's what you've always said, right?.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
This may hard for you to believe, but I would refuse to play it SPECIFICALLY because of what has happened to the design of the golf course. I would be a fool to suggest that the Masters hasn't meant something to me in my thoughts of golf course design, but what has happened in the last three years alone is reason to uphold my beliefs and stance that the powers in charge are out of control; and have little regard for the man who they credit was the founder of the club (Jones) as well as the man & men that designed it (Jones and MacKenzie)

I'll also go on further to say, that not only is the man in charge, who is not only responsible for the current changes; has also put the club at grave risk. This is something Bobby Jones warned profusely, (and if someone could help me with the name of the many Augusta National books where it was written) that if in any regard, the tournament was to become threat to the golf club, it was to be discontinued.

I in fact think that if this club should do exactly that; IF they REALLY believe the ideals of Bobby Jones, honor not only his spirit, but also his modus operandi of the Augusta National Golf Club. It would mean they should stop the tournament, no matter the extent of the popularity and its profit. At least until this circus of media attention stops.

This has everything to do with belief that a woman can be elgible to be a member of the club--if the club so desires. Pat, I believe that I have more respect to the interests of Augusta National then Hootie does. And I haven't even been there!

To me, that is pretty pathetic. I can only hope he is reading.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Many changes are easily undone.

The grown in rough can always be mowed back to fairway and
trees can always be removed.

I happen to agree with adding length to the 13th tee, it needs it.

What does a woman being a member have to do with the architecture and the play of the golf course, and does this mean that you're going to skip GCGC as well ?

As to the media circus you refer to, I think the media has to take responsibility for that.

I'm disappointed that you've declined, this means I'll have to extend a default invitation to TEPaul if the opportunity arrises.
That alone may jeopardize any potential future invite, and my safe passage through Georgia.

TEPaul,

My parallel self, played Pine Valley in a parallel universe, and informed me of the experience, complete with all the facts.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
I don't want to confuse the point. I think Augusta should be able to have anyone that want as far as membership. This would mean even if a female was as part of the plan.

What I think is wrong is the fact that their chairman, unlike other past chairman has put the club at grave risk by creating a media shark tank for an event that prides itself as a humble gathering that sells $1.50 pimento sandwiches (or what ever they cost.) and gives lots of dollars to charity. (which I have no doubt that they graciously do.)

In my opinion, Augusta National Golf Club has opened its doors a little too wide, and further, granted a little too much leverage to a chairman that wants to be a star in the media.

As much as Clifford Roberts enjoyed knowing the fact that everyone knew he was the boss, he knew when to turn away from the camera and assume the duties of running a private club. Even when there were stupid changes (like #8) during Robert's rule, No one in the media was given an ounce of information on those changes. NO ONE. Augusta National was still a very PRIVATE CLUB that welcomed the members and its guests with southern hospitality and charm. It was nobody's business other then the members.

Hootie is exactly the opposite. He has opened the door further and look what he has let in! Maybe not to play, but to surely dance around outside the gates, spreading the word how evil the club and its members are as well as taking the sponsor dollars away from the tournament and ultimately the charities that are benefitted. (If anyone thinks that this is a positive thing for Augusta National, please stop me!)

They (The NCOW or whatever they are called) are even demanding that the tournament be held at a place outside of Augusta National! And to show you how naive they are, they don't even realize that its a club invitational tournament!

Now to get back to the design aspects of the changes, I have not one problem with lengthening the course for a  superball. In fact, MacKenzie had planned for the need of additional length. What I dispize is, Rough-no matter how tall it is; Bunkers--being moved and created that ultimately change the strategy; and Greens--being shaped, moved and recontoured because they are too high and don't offer a beautiful view of the hole)

Is this the mindset what MacKenzie and Jones specified?After all Pat, the mission statement for AGNC was created by Jones and he wanted all of the same challenges of the Old Course. If he wanted them removed later and other changes instituted, then I'll concur to Golf's Greatest and Most Beloved Champion. It was his choice. I think this qualifies as "the Directive."

Now my question to you is, Shouldn't Hootie be trying to uphold that Mission Statement?

Personally, I think his statement is about leaving his own personal mark and of course, like always, HISTORY will be the deciding factor. Since these ridiculous changes are eliminating the final-nine excitement that the Masters Tournament was famous for, I'll settle for reruns of 86', 95 and many other years where the tournament gained its fame and .....ugh, fortune.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

I wonder how much the greens changed in contour after the club switched away from bermuda ?

I'm not ready to make a blanket condemnation with respect to moving bunkers.  I think moving bunkers has to be looked at on a case by case and hole by hole basis.

Sometimes well intended individuals make mistakes or get it wrong.  Many times they get and rely on bad advice.
Time will tell.

But, it's still a great golf course in its present form.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()