[Andy Levett]

Can you help me choose which to play?

One day in the next few weeks I will have several hours to kill in the Sheffield area of England. I plan to meet my dad who lives about an hour away and play one of the local courses.

He has suggested Lindrick, I was wondering about Sitwell Park. Neither of us has played either and for fairly well-known courses information and opinions seem  scanty, at least on the web. Both courses have basic websites that aren't much help in deciding which to play and both welcome week-day visitors - Sitwell Park is so welcoming it accepts two-for-one vouchers, so the green fee will be a lot less there.

What I know: Lindrick hosted the Ryder Cup and makes the top 100 in UK lists.
Sitwell Park doesn't make the lists but that is no disgrace and may be because it is fairly short, under 6000yards from the visitor tees - not a reason to put me off. A drawing of one of MacKenzie's  greens there adorns the end papers of Geoff Shackelford's Masters of the Links.

I suspect we won't be disappointed whichever we go to but I was wondering if anybody here has any insights.

Cheers

[TEPaul]

Andy:

I sure hope you can play Sitwell Park and report back to us on it. The tales of its early days and the radical architecture (greens) and the controversy is so interesting. It would be great to know how much it's remained as it was when MacKenzie built it. So go play Sitwell at least for the historic interest and so some of us can get a feeling for it vicariously.

[Andy Levett]

TE Paul
I'll certainly report back if I get there. One otherwise uninformative review I did find complained the 18th green was "unfair for the handicap golfer" so maybe things haven't changed too much!

[TEPaul]

Andy:

According to Tom Doak's excellent recent book on MacKenzie, Sitwell's original greens were radically contoured beyond belief. That famous 140 par 3 fell 10 ft from back to front in a number of directions. The early photograph of it shows the most radical contours I've ever seen on a green by a mile. Apparently the greens contours made the course so controversial on opening that Sir George Sitwell (client) was embarrased and apparently some of those highly contoured greens were leveled early on. Professionals hated that aspect and that's when MacKenzie began criticizing the "card and pencil" set. MacKenzie defended his architectural ideas and his radical ideas on green contours and this may have been when and where his inclination to go for the controversial in architecture began. This is obviously where his reputation for highly contoured greens began too. TomD surmises that even Harry Colt tried to distance himself from the idea of MacKenzie's highly contoured greens too.

[Tom_Doak]

Andy,

I have never been to Sitwell Park myself.  Alison Nicholas grew up around there, and I asked her if "that green" was still there and she replied, "What green?"  So I don't think you'll find it.

Lindrick is okay, but there are a lot of other courses in England which are better.  I'd sure rather hear if anything is left of Sitwell Park.

[TEPaul]

Andy:

Go to Sitwell Park. Give us a complete rundown on what happened to that incredible 140 par 3 with the wildest contours in the history of architecture. If that green is not there or if it's been softened by an inch I think Sir George Sitwell should be crucified on here for softening a green because he thought he should increase the stimpmeter reading above 2. This character Sitwell should be held fully accountable for starting this damn green speed race!

Right Pat?

Go to Sitwell Park, Andy--it sounds like the world-wide wrath of GOLFCLUBATLAS needs to rain down on Sir George Sitwell and his Park golf course. If you can't find Sir George, find us one of his great grandsons and we'll crucify him! How could Sitwell do that to Alister MacKenzie? It's an abomination!

[Andy Levett]

Thanks for the input gents.

Before I go I should be able to read up on what happened in Tom Doak's book. I requested it on inter-library loan ages ago and just heard back that they couldn't get it. Apparently the British Library's lending copy went out and was never returned - one sort of recommendation I suppose!

Anyway, like everyone it seems, I really enjoyed Anatomy of a Golf Course so have bitten the bullet and ordered a copy of the MacKenzie book from Amazon.

Cheers

[TEPaul]

Andy:

If you happen to find some dried "bad blood" in that area of England toward Alister MacKenzie don't pay any attention to it. Being completely irrascible and unceremoniously dumping his wife and running off to America with another women can't have a damn thing to do with golf architecture.

Matter of fact, I think you should you should lay into anyone you find who may have blamed him for any of that. If somehow those people had gotten their way and prevailed upon him we may never have gotten Cypress, Pasatiempo, ANGC and a number of others over here. When you go to Sitwell remind anyone you see of that fact.

And whether it's true or not tell anyone involved with Sitwell Park that you think their greens are too flat and need far more slope and contour in them!

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