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Phil_the_Author

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #200 on: April 01, 2004, 05:17:06 PM »
Yes, he probably did recommend the removal of that many bunkers.

His letters do not give numbers of the bunkers that needed removing, but they do allude to large numbers at individual courses.

My purpose in putting up that information was to try and show the reality of what he was doing. There has been a great deal of history writing going on in this thread without any true facts being given.

As has been shown a number of times on this thread, Tilly had a long history of belief that bunkers designed SOLELY to impinge on the play of poor players were poor designs and bad for the game.

What is forgiotten are the large numbers of golf courses built around the country in the teens and twenties by very poor designers who were meeting the demands of the times. This is where a good number of DH's could be found. Yet the issue isn't so much the number or locations as they are his attitude toward the work he was now doing & whether he was "selling out" by doing it.

Going through his letters & putting the reality of what he did daily, between course examinations, meetings before and after these, drawings (that he did NOT get paid for), evening meetings with local PGA sections, media interviews, letter and report writings, signing up new PGA members and then LONG drives over poor roads, what he did may very well have been among the great accomplishments in the history of the game as well as helping to save the PGA of America during its time of greatest crisis.

This was not a sell out which, after all, is the question that was raised.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #201 on: April 01, 2004, 05:27:14 PM »
Philip;

Then why do you think that so many of Tillie's courses (as evidenced by many drawings, such as the one's presented by Tom MacWood above) featured bunkers in the area of 175 yards and closer to the tee?

Do you think it gives the weaker or senior or high-handicap player greater pleasure to be able to take on one of those DH bunkers and succeed, or should they always been firing at wide green fairway?

At what point in his career would you say that TIllie moved to a more formulaic bunkering pattern (only challenging the expert in their driving zone) as opposed to the type of diverse bunkering strategies we see exhibited above?

DMoriarty

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #202 on: April 01, 2004, 05:45:44 PM »
It is time to stop speculating and pronouncing such as facts and to appreciate that his motives were not financial other than a paycheck from the PGA alone, and that he had not sold out his soul to try and make work for himself. He couldn’t have done the work as he was far too busy!

Mr. Young,  

I have no interest in presenting anything as fact that isnt, but I for one do not know the facts.  Perhaps you and/or Mr. Wolffe can answer the following questions which will no doubt broaden my understanding of the situation . . . .

--  Why was the PGA doing what they were doing? I have heard the meta-answer-- that the PGA was trying to save itself by providing a service to the member courses-- but what exactly was the service they were trying to provide?  

--   Was the PGA trying to show the clubs how they could save money without ruing their courses?

--  What types of services were the Professionals at the clubs asking for?   Are the letters from the PGA Professionals on file?  (I find it hard to believe that they were considering capital expenditures aimed solely improving the course during these dire times.)

Phil_the_Author

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #203 on: April 01, 2004, 06:14:10 PM »
You ask some good questions and I hope that I can provide some of the answers.

From the beginning of the organization of the PGA of America in the teens, they were waging an uphill battle to gain membership and provide services that would justify the dues.
At this time, most pros mad a meager living and to get money out of them to join an Association that didn't benefit them as a group and as individuals would never have lasted.

From certifying the pros, to providing methods of standardized teaching methods, and more, they provided services to the membership.

Still, the money was slow in coming in as was the growth in membership. Though many tried, it was difficult for the club pro to get his club to pay his dues. With the depression most of those clubs who were, stopped doing so. The financial crisis faced by the organization grew through the 30s despite the best efforts to cut costs.

The typical statement to the organization as to why members were dropping out was because they couldn't afford the dues.

The idea for the free course consultant service was pure genius. A world-class architect, maybe the greatest of all and known by everyone, would look at their course for free. His purpose to help the club save money in maintenance costs and design modifications. The only catch was that their pro had to be amember of the PGA!

The number of requests for this service was overwhelming, with people showing up at member clubs while he was there asking him to come to theirs. The letters of appreciation from golf clubs and pros alike show just how much this service was appreciated.

The number of member pros grew quickly, as did the payment of dues.

The PGA had shown to American golf clubs that their member pros were invaluable to them and were more than just a person to show a member how to swing a club. It was the beginning of pros taking a management position within the clubs, thereby increasing their compensation.

Most of the recommendations made were of the type that would make the course better, more enjoyable, and would fund itself through maintenance savings.

There were a significant numebr of agronomy problems that Tillinghast dealt with as well, showing that the club pro could call on the PGA to help them in this area as well.

Where actual design work for renovation or additions were asked for, if it could be done at the time of the visit, Tilly would sketch a drawing on his ever present pad. If more elaborate drawings were needed, a recommendation to use for a local architect that was a PGA member was made, and many of his letters mention these gentleman.

This was a service of vision. How many times do we look back at what a businessman has accomplished, many times by providing unexpected free services, and say that he was a man with vision ahead of his times.

That is what George Jacobus was. Because of this idea the services provided, the PGA of America was put into a position where it could survive the tough times then, the tough war years, and develop an organization that is united and strong to this day.

Without this service they may not be around now.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #204 on: April 01, 2004, 08:14:20 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Do you feel, in 1936, that bunkers were routinely placed at the 250 yard mark ?  The 230 yard mark ?

Bunkers at 175 in 1936 would require a carry of 185 or more, depending on their height relative to the tee and fairway.

Don't think in terms of today's golf, but golf in 1936.

Philip Young,

If AWT was visiting a golf club to find ways to cut down maintainance costs, wouldn't he have to look at more then just bunkers.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2004, 08:16:35 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #205 on: April 01, 2004, 08:33:30 PM »
Tom MacW:

If you're implying in post #192 something contradictory, I don't see it. Show me some courses he designed bunkers throughout the DH zone and then came back in the mid 1930s and recommended they all be removed.

You also seem to suggest that any bunkering within 175 yards of a tee he recommended the removal of. I don't see that either. Do you really believe that? And if you do, you're going to have to prove it because I don't think that's remotely true. You also named a few courses such as Phiily Cricket, St David's and Wyoming Valley (at least some of those I recall you mentioning) where he designed bunkering throughout that DH zone. I know those courses, played them all a number of times and never saw that. Even on aerials of a few I didn't see anything like that.

You said:

"Frankly I don't know what you are talking about. The entire theory that he compromised is based upon historical facts. The realities of Tilly's career design portfolio and common practices (I've given you numerous examples). The fact that his PGA tour recommendations were a braek from his career long practices. And the fact of his personal circumstances and the economic realities of the time."

No, I don't think you do see what I'm talking about as clear as it seems to be so there's no reason to repeat it. I do realize your THEORY is based on historical facts, but they're historical facts that don't prove your theory. So consequently that's all it is as far as I'm concerned---a theory!

You base your theory on historical facts such as the crash, the depression, his PGA tour, the fact that Tillinghast, as well as most all architects, were basically out of work during the depression. Most of them probably were completely out of work but a few such as Maxwell also did a good deal of redesign work in the 1930s That included three separate redesign visits to my course in the 1930s. But none of that  proves Tillinghast or any of them compromised their architectural principles or sold them out.

The manner in which you seem to be going about trying to prove your theory is something akin to saying if someone was in the vicinity of Dealy Plaza on Nov 22 1963 they must have been an accomplice in the murder of Pres. Kennedy!

Interesting list offered by Phil Young of a part of Tillinghast's PGA odyssey and what he recommended. Seems to me there was much more advice offered than the removal of DH bunkering.


DMoriarty

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #206 on: April 01, 2004, 09:48:48 PM »
Mr. Young,

Thank you for your detailed answer.  It seems the AWT visits turned out to be quite beneficial for the PGA.

However, I am more concerned with what benefit the courses requested and/or received.  

Given the dire times, it would seem that the courses needed to figure out a way to lower their costs so they could survive.  Course changes were likely inevitable--  clubs would have to cut costs or perish.  The PGA program gave them an opportunity to follow the cost saving suggestions of one of the world's great architects.  As you say above:

 
A world-class architect, maybe the greatest of all and known by everyone, would look at their course for free. His purpose to help the club save money in maintenance costs and design modifications.  

This was certainly a great benefit to the clubs and to golf in general-- just think how many courses might have been ruined or "NLE" if the members and Pro had been left on their own to determine the changes.  

Yet there must be another side to this coin. . . .  

Given the PGA's money-saving goal and the extent of the changes made (ex. 7000-10000 bunkers removed), it is inconceivable to me that every recommended change improved the architecture of the course.  While in golf architecture cheaper often does mean better, this is not always the case.  

Don't you think it possible, or even likely, that sometimes AWT may have made recommendations which slightly lessened the quality of the architecture, for the sake of saving the club.  

Surely AWT was not selling out if he was simply recommending what was necessary to increase the course's chance of survival.  




T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #207 on: April 01, 2004, 10:13:59 PM »
TE
"Show me some courses he designed bunkers throughout the DH zone and then came back in the mid 1930s and recommended they all be removed."

You are sounding more and more like Pat Mucci...you read Tilly's article in 1936, and his new found DH philosophy. Must every club remove every bunker in that zone for it be a departure? 7000+ bunkers gets your attention.

"I do realize your THEORY is based on historical facts, but they're historical facts that don't prove your theory."

Isn't that the point...basing a theory on solid facts. I've also considered what you and Phil have offered and based upon my historical perspective frankly your view of Tilly (the legend) doesn't compute and ignores the facts in 1935-36 (and I've explained why), I don't find the two articles you've presented compelling--taken out of context--and that is about the extent of your facts.

You continue to emphasize the lack of work for architects and the hard times...isn't that my point? I'm not claiming that Tilly should have had super human martyrdom skills and rejected the PGA oportunity at his own demise. I'm simply point out he was human and forced compromise.

Phil
Thank you for sharing the small window into Tilly's tour.

When I first read your post with the dates and actions, I thought Phil is making the point the number of bunkers Tilly claimed was an exagertion (and therefore his compromise was exagerated). But also that the number of courses Tilly visited on his whirlwind tour was most likely accurate. The consclusion being he was preaching a new design philosophy...promoting the DH free zones...but was actually not following though, and in fact distorting what he did.

But then in your next post you say....yes, he probably did recommend the removal of that many bunkers. Very confusing from my point of view. You then claim your purpose in putting up that information was to try and show the reality of what was going on. How can you show the reality of what is going on by deliberately misleading or twisting the truth?

Who were these very poor designers in the teens and twenties?

Tilly was a great architect...for those of us who love his work, his golf course designs were great accomplishments in the history of the game, not his PGA tour...that was the low point of his design career IMO. And the low point for most architects, and most citizens in general....it was not a good period for anyone. Not to say he did not give every ounce of his energy during the tour....he clearly gave it his all.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2004, 10:45:23 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #208 on: April 01, 2004, 10:26:35 PM »
Pat, you wrote, "If AWT was visiting a golf club to find ways to cut down maintainance costs, wouldn't he have to look at more then just bunkers."

Tillinghast was visiting courses and giving free consulktation services because he was INVITED to do so. He was invited in the extreme number of cases with specific questions and/or problems already in mind by the club. His answers and suggestions usually could be implemented in ways that were inexpensive and many of them, such as bunker removal, would provide for substantial savings to the club in maintenance costs. This was a by-product of his suggestions and not the goal for inspecting.


Mr. Moriarity, you wrote, "Yet there must be another side to this coin. . . ."

Why? Do you mean one purposefully planned or as a natural by-product of the service?  

You next wrote, "Given the PGA's money-saving goal and the extent of the changes made (ex. 7000-10000 bunkers removed), it is inconceivable to me that every recommended change improved the architecture of the course.  While in golf architecture cheaper often does mean better, this is not always the case."

I agree completely. Babe Ruth struck out an awful lot of times. Likewise, not every hole of every Tillinghast course is a work of art. I would imagine that some bunkers should have stayed. How many & where... I could never say.  

You next wrote, "Don't you think it possible, or even likely, that sometimes AWT may have made recommendations which slightly lessened the quality of the architecture, for the sake of saving the club."

This is a supposition that I can neither agree or disagree with as I never saw any of the courses that had bunkers removed before, or most of them after. I will say this, he recommended removal of bunkers at a number of courses that chose NOT to do so. This means that some disagreed with his opinions.  

You also wrote, "Surely AWT was not selling out if he was simply recommending what was necessary to increase the course's chance of survival."

What has been missing from most of the posts is the recognition that Tillinghast was giving advice that he truly believed to be right, necessary, and in the best interests of both the club and the game of golf.

His motivations were of the highest order. As I have shown he was working extreme hours and he was not a young man. This is one of the causes for the heart problems he suffered mid-way through the tour and his poor health from then until he died. He actually did give his all for the game. One might actually say that it broke his heart.  



TEPaul

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #209 on: April 02, 2004, 06:55:44 AM »
"You continue to emphasize the lack of work for architects and the hard times...isn't that my point?

Tom:

I don't know, that hasn't sounded much like your point thus far. That certainly has been our point though. Your point simply sounds like Tillinghast sold out his architectural principles or compromised them by doing something he shouldn't have done.

Reading Tillinghast's point regarding bunkering in the DH zone it sounds as if he felt he was improving architecture by shifting an unnecessry burden of penality from the duffer (who he seemed to believe didn't really need it because of his own inherent limitations) to areas where bunkering would have more of an impact on better players (he apparently believed DH zone bunkering had almost no effect on the good player). It sounds like Tillinghast felt this was actually a perscription for better architecture for all---modern or scientific architecture as it was sometimes called. And in the process it sounds like he felt he was removing costly bunkering of no real utility in a very dire time when that could help alleviate the financial burden on various clubs.

"I'm not claiming that Tilly should have had super human martyrdom skills and rejected the PGA oportunity at his own demise. I'm simply point out he was human and forced compromise."

By claiming he sold out or compromised his principles it certainly sounds like your suggesting or implying he should've had super human martydom skills. But if you're not suggesting that and you're merely saying he was doing about the same thing as most of the others were (if they even got that chance in the depression) then maybe we are on the same page here!

Most of the Irish didn't exactly have three squares a day during the potato famine---did that mean they all sold out or compromised their culinary principles?


T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #210 on: April 02, 2004, 09:29:17 AM »
TE
”I don't know, that hasn't sounded much like your point thus far.”  

I have said all along that Tilly was affected by the economic realities and difficult circumstances. No design work for years (excepting Bethpage); bankruptcy; lost  home; lost job; few if any job prospects. Hard times = need to compromise


”It sounds like Tillinghast felt this was actually a perscription for better architecture for all---modern or scientific architecture as it was sometimes called.”

If this was the case, if he really believed he was improving architecture by creating DH free zones, then is it logical to conclude his career long philosophy, up through 1935, was unsound (and the philosophy and practices of Macdonald, MacKenzie, Ross, Travis, Thomas, Flynn, Raynor, etc., etc, were also flawed)?

In other words he did not compromise, the opposite, he finally saw the design light in 1936 and his career up until that point had been marred by ill conceived bunkering ideas.


”By claiming he sold out or compromised his principles it certainly sounds like your suggesting or implying he should've had super human martyrdom skills.”  

No, what I am saying is Tilly was human.  He possessed the human frailties, weaknesses and fears we all possess.

”Most of the Irish didn't exactly have three squares a day during the potato famine---did that mean they all sold out or compromised their culinary principles?”

No. But if they began claiming food was bad during the famine…I’d accuse them of compromising. Or if they began eating their young….I’d accuse them of compromising.

The Donner party…now there were some compromisers.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #211 on: April 02, 2004, 09:56:35 AM »
Tom M.,

It seems that no matter what is written, unless it agrees with your pronouncement of what is factual you will follow it up with a phrase such as, "How can you show the reality of what is going on by deliberately misleading or twisting the truth?"

Where do you get off claiming the I am DELIBERATELY misleading or twisting the truth?

Maybe I am doing nothing more than answering a question posed with ACTUAL facts? Could it be that YOU are MISREADING what I have written and the REASON for it?

I wote about Tilly's first nine days and the actuality of what he did because of these following ascertions:

1- Maybe he had exaggerated the number of courses that he actually had visited
2- Maybe he "sold out" and was drumming up more work for himself
3- That Tilly had, for some strange reason, overnight changed his design philosophy & beliefs, and had decided totell everyone everywhere to remove bunkers
4- A number of posters have mentioned his letters and reports, using them as proof of their ascertions, and yet have not actually seen or read them

What the small portions that I copied show is that Tillinghast:
1- Visited far more courses than most here on site can conceive. In addition he only visited courses wher he was INVITED to.
2- It was impossible for him to drum up more work for himself. He was doing far too much as it was. Also, he was leaving completed plans at many places in addition to his advice, all at no charge. How is this getting him more work after the tour? He was also only addressing problems that the clubs themselves wanted discussed. He was NOT examining courses in their entirety unless asked to.
3- If Tilly saw that he could make all of this money by saying "remove these bunkers!" even though he didn't believe it, when did this "revelation" occur to him? Why did he wait NINE days and numerous courses into his trip to suggest this for the first time? Could it be that he was examining courses and recommending work BASED SOLELY ON WHAT HE BELIEVED THE COURSE NEEDED?
4- Tom MacWood, have YOU ever seen and read even a good portion of the letters and reports that Tilly sent to Jacobus at the PGA? If not, how can you state in any way what he was doing and why? And before you reply and avoid answering the question by asking something along the lines of, "Since you raise it Phil, have you?" I can state that I have read EVERY one of them and have copies of them in my possession. In addition to this, I have examined the letters and correspondence sent from Jacobus to Tilly kept in the PGA archives in Florida. IT is because of this that I feel fairly confident that I am not DELIBERATELY MISLEADING OR TWISTING THE TRUTH!

Have I made any similar ascertion against your character because you write early in this post that you had never even known of an article that Tilly wrote before the mid-30s where Tilly actually wrote about removing bunkers of the DH type, yet several posts later, try to correct someone who had quoted from the article titled "Duffer's Headaches" correctly stating that it was a combination of two articles, ONE OF THEM FROM 1920!!!!!


Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #212 on: April 02, 2004, 10:08:38 AM »
(apologies to those who've seen this on the other thread)

Tillinghast was responsible for all sorts of atrocities.

I've been doing some research myself and as you can clearly see in the illustration below, here is Tillinghast on a visit to Canada, where a particular club wouldn't let him remove Willie Park Jr.'s bunkers at less than 175 yards from the tee.  

Like many courses of the time, it was built next to adjacent railroad tracks, and in the case in question, Tillie had tied the Green Chairman's daughter to the tracks demanding more bunker removal as ransom for her safety, until local authorities intervened.


 

Phil_the_Author

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #213 on: April 02, 2004, 10:12:40 AM »
Mike,

I am stunned! I've been duped!

Oh Tilly, how could you have done this? I'd recognize your moustache anywhere!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #214 on: April 02, 2004, 10:18:38 AM »
Phil;

And that's just his golf-related misadventures...

Don't even get me started on the debauchery of his personal life!   :o



T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #215 on: April 02, 2004, 10:44:04 AM »
Phil
I assume you consciously chose that two week period. You went on to say “Here we are then, the 9th day of a trip where he is supposedly planning on recommending removal of bunkers because he has either changed  his beliefs as an architect or is trying to make work for himself, and only NOW for the first time suggests removals of bunkers?”

You began that post by saying one of the inherent problems with this thread was, among other things, the number of bunkers claimed removed (by the way it was Tilly’s claim). And then in your next post you said “Yes, he probably did recommend the removal of that many bunkers.”

In my book that is misleading.

“Have I made any similar ascertion against your character because you write early in this post that you had never even known of an article that Tilly wrote before the mid-30s where Tilly actually wrote about removing bunkers of the DH type, yet several posts later, try to correct someone who had quoted from the article titled "Duffer's Headaches" correctly stating that it was a combination of two articles, ONE OF THEM FROM 1920!!!!!”

What are you talking about?

You attempted to use the DH article as proof Tilly was talking about DH’s long before 1935…you said the “Duffers Headache” article in The Course Beautiful was from 1920. I then pointed out that wasn't exactly accurate, the article you were using was actually a merger of two articles and the portion from 1920 dealt with cop bunkers not the DH.  And that the title was a recent invention of the editors. I also pointed out to you the cop and DH were two different animals.

Perhaps not an attempt to mislead...but at the very least confused.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #216 on: April 02, 2004, 11:03:23 AM »
Tom,

Let me give you an example of misleading.

You wrote, "I assume you consciously chose that two week period. You went on to say “Here we are then, the 9th day of a trip where he is supposedly planning on recommending removal of bunkers because he has either changed  his beliefs as an architect or is trying to make work for himself, and only NOW for the first time suggests removals of bunkers?”

You began that post by saying one of the inherent problems with this thread was, among other things, the number of bunkers claimed removed (by the way it was Tilly’s claim). And then in your next post you said “Yes, he probably did recommend the removal of that many bunkers.”

You DELIBERATELY left out some of what I wrote, including the first and primary phrase that was the subject of the post.

Let us look at EXACTLY what I wrote. "One of the problems inherently common to many of the comments on this thread, is that they are attempting to present as “facts” statements that are suppositions without anything backing them up. For example, the statements regarding exactly how many courses Tilly visited or not, as well as how many bunkers he recommended (and yes, that is ALL that he did was make recommendations) be removed from different courses."

I then talked about the number of courses that he visited as this is something that can be given an exact number. Why? Because his letters list them all. I gave the start of the tour DELIBERATELY because it should be apparent to a reasonable person that he was NOT going from course to course telling them to remove bunkers and create work for himself in addition to his recommendations. The proof ofthis is that he did not recommended removing a single bunker until the 9th day.

You next write, "And then in your next post you said “Yes, he probably did recommend the removal of that many bunkers.”

You leave out the pertinent fact that I was asked if I believe that he had recommended the removal of 7-10,000 bunkers. That was MY REPLY TO THE QUESTION! What am I not supposed to answer it?

Then you DELIBERATELY choose to leave out where I state that I can't state for certain the exact number of bunkers removed because Tilly didn't number them in his letters and I never saw the courses before this work was done. What is disengenuous and deliberately misleading about stating "I DON'T KNOW?"

You also leave out where I did write in a previous post, "Tom MacWood, have YOU ever seen and read even a good portion of the letters and reports that Tilly sent to Jacobus at the PGA? If not, how can you state in any way what he was doing and why? And before you reply and avoid answering the question by asking something along the lines of, "Since you raise it Phil, have you?" I can state that I have read EVERY one of them and have copies of them in my possession. In addition to this, I have examined the letters and correspondence sent from Jacobus to Tilly kept in the PGA archives in Florida. IT is because of this that I feel fairly confident that I am not DELIBERATELY MISLEADING OR TWISTING THE TRUTH!"

So once again I ask, have YOU ever read or examined these letters? ON what basis then are you able to state what was in his mind and was his purpose for making the recommendations that he did?




T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #217 on: April 02, 2004, 12:18:06 PM »
Phil
You are correct I did leave out parts of what you wrote...I was concentrating my response only upon your misleading comments....the part where you implied the bunker removal numbers (given by Tilly and used by many of us on this thread) were not factual...remember you statement about the problems with this thread.....? Oddly in your next post you appear to contradict yourself....the numbers are now factual in your opinion. How is that not misleading....or at least confusing?

No one that I am aware of said all he did was make recommendations to remove bunkers...but this thread is focused upon Tilly's design philosophy and in particular his bunkering philosophy...so for obvious reasons that is the point of emphasis. And it was the point of emphasis for Tilly...see his claims to the PGA and his numerous articles on the subject. While interesting and poignant, what does Tilly's  hardships on the road have to do with his design philosphy being altered?
 
I haven't read the letters.

Would reading the letters alter the fact that Tilly promoted DH free zones in 1936. Would the letters change Tilly's bunkering practices pre 1935-36? Would reading the letters tell me if he exagerating his claim of removing 7000+ bunkers or not? Would reading the letters alter the fact that Tilly was going through difficult times? How would the letters prove or disprove the theory that Tilly compromised his bunkering philosophy? Do the letters give different reasons for his de-bunkering actions than the reasons he gave in his numerous articles in 1936?

I made my claim based upon a number of factors (I've listed many times) in combination with (I hope) logic.

Who were these very poor designers, you referred to, in the teens and twenties?

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #218 on: April 02, 2004, 01:52:59 PM »
Tom M.

I am sorry I did not get a chance to post this earlier.  But I recall that you stated the chapter called Duffers Headaches was misleading because it merged two articles together.  I presume you drew this conclusion from the bibliography which lists two articles -- one from 1920 and one from 1936.  I am afraid you may have made some wrong interpretations from the bibliography.  Substantanially the entire article came from the 1920 article.  The passages from the 1920 Green Committee page, which appear in the chapter called Duffers Headaches is reprinted below.  The paragagraph from the 1936 article is also reprinted below.  As you will see the last paragraph is the only piece of the article that comes from 1936.  As you will also see Tilly was espousing the placement of hazards beyond the range of the duffer in 1920 and preaching the use of diagonal land oblique lines in the placing of his bunkers.  I think someone earlier so ably described his philosophy as clearing the center of the fairway.

I hereby request from Judge TePaul summary judgment in behalf of Mr. Tillinghast that he did not sell out his design philosophy.  We also request the judgment be granted with prejudice.



32. DUFFER’S HEADACHES
Golf Illustrated, Our Green Committee Page, Vol. 13, June 1920

The golf architect devotes about three quarters of his time to the planning of improvements and extending old courses.  Green Committees in all parts of the country are keenly alive to the realization that holes of faulty design and construction, monotonous holes and those which expose players to danger, must be eliminated.  A featureless and poor hole has no place on a modern course.  To be sure there is always an element in every club which is opposed to changes, but nowadays those who attempt to deter the work of modernizing courses are of the great minority.

However, it is very proper that the rank and file of golfers should be given some idea of the demands which the new holes will make of his limited skill.  The player of very ordinary ability naturally fears that a stiffened course may present fearsome features to rob his rounds of pleasure.  As a matter of fact the golf architect of today is a good friend of the duffer.  Let us consider a first class two-shot hole for example, a hole which is calculated to call for a full brassey after a well-hit drive.  The actual yardage of a hole of this type will vary with conditions, some turf yielding far greater distance than others.  But let us assume that the hole in question is located on an inland course of average speed, and that under normal weather conditions the best players are compelled to use wood for both shots to cover the four hundred and sixty yards between teeing-ground and green.  The length of this hole alone will place the green beyond the range of the duffer’s two healthiest swipes, and if the fairway were absolutely barren of hazards, the “three-figure” man will require three strokes and possibly more.  His poorly played shots are vexations enough without digging pit-falls to add to his sorrows  Yet on hundreds of course we find old-fashioned bunkers, marring the scenery at a point about one hundred and forty yards from the teeing ground, hazards which extend squarely across the line of play and which call for a drive to carry the trouble from crack and duffer alike.

Now it is safe to assert that in the average golf club there are fully twenty-give per cent of the players who cannot average one hundred and forty yards in carry, and a goodly number who cannot make the distance at all even with the long-flying balls of the present day.  With such a hazard, many a player must of necessity drive off in desperate effort, feeling in his heart that certain disaster awaits him, yet hoping that some lucky chance may yield a fair shot for his second.

The experts certainly will give the hazard no thought.  They can half-hit their drives and still carry well over.  In brief, the hazards of yesterday trap only bad shots, while those of the present gather in the “nearly good” ones of the fellows who formerly hooked and sliced their long ones without punishment.  We are building hazards, or designing our holes to include natural ones, in such a manner as to grade the carries, with suitable rewards for each successful effort.  The scratch player is forced to hit his longest and best to negotiate the carry which will open up the green to the best advantage for his second.  Often enough he is called on for a carry of one hundred and eighty yards or more, fully forty or fifty yards longer than before; while the medium and poor players have to contend with a greatly shortened carry and likely none at all.


The Professional Golfer of America, From the Gulf to Puget Sound, The P.G.A. Examines Courses, pp 22-23, June 1936

While, as I have said, the courses generally are structurally and strategically improved over those of a few years back, yet there are enough of the Cheap-John, amateurish sort, rather cluttered with sand pits that cost money to maintain for no other purpose than to discourage the very players at golf, who need encouraging most.  When speaking of these abominations in my reports to the P.G.A. for brevity’s sake I simply call them D.H.’s (short for Duffer’s Headaches).  I am thoroughly delighted by the reaction of green committees everywhere to our doctrine of the elimination of these relics of golf’s dark age.
 :o ::)

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #219 on: April 02, 2004, 02:08:00 PM »
Rick;

Where's the part where he professes innocence to tying the daughters of Green Chairmen to the tracks?   ;)  ;D

Thanks for sharing.  

It seems to me that Tillinghast was particularly speaking of center-line carry hazards at the 140 yard range (aka "cross" or "cop" bunkers), because it is clear that he did create diagonal and side bunkering at those ranges on his own courses.  Would you agree?

« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 02:16:18 PM by Mike_Cirba »

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #220 on: April 02, 2004, 05:33:23 PM »
RW
Thanks for explaining...I had read both articles in the original magazines. I believe the 1920 article 'Our Green Committe Page' was a monthly feature, I do not believe it was titled Duffer's Headache...at least not in the Golf Illustrated I have seen.

I agree with Mike, that 1920 article deals with the dreaded cop....the whipping boy of all architects in 1920. The 1936 paragraph...deals with the poor mistreated duffer's headache.

I prefer compromise to selling out....I'm affraid Judge TE would have to recuse himself in this case. It would be impossible for him to rule against a Philadelphian.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 05:34:01 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #221 on: April 02, 2004, 07:39:21 PM »
Mr Young,

I think we are mostly in agreement.  

But what I fail to understand is your continued refusal to acknowledge that AWT may have occasionally (and slightly) compromised the integrity of architecture in order to save courses.  

To my mind, this would neither be evidence of a sell-out nor an indictment of AWT.  Getting rid of a few decent bunkers is most certainly the lesser of two evil (the other evil; allowing the courses to grow broke.)

You next wrote, "Don't you think it possible, or even likely, that sometimes AWT may have made recommendations which slightly lessened the quality of the architecture, for the sake of saving the club."

This is a supposition that I can neither agree or disagree with as I never saw any of the courses that had bunkers removed before, or most of them after.

I didnt ask you for proof positive, just whether this was a possible or even likely scenario.   Surely you are expert enough on AWT to speculate just this little bit.  

___________________

Team Cirba:   Did AWT build any other heavily bunkered, depression era courses other than Bethpage?  

TEPaul

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #222 on: April 02, 2004, 08:38:17 PM »
"I prefer compromise to selling out....."

Tom MacW:

Well, aren't you being the super fair fellow and historical analyst!? Frankly, I'm thankful and sometimes impressed by some of the raw research you throw in here---the raw data, in other words. Analyzing it in the correct historical perspective is sometimes another matter, in my opinion! I think the thing you need to do one of these days, Tom, is serve on the green committee of a club somewhere. I have a very strong feeling it might afford you a very valuable and perhaps somewhat different perspective on this entire subject, both now and historically!  :)

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #223 on: April 02, 2004, 09:51:31 PM »
TE
There are many who gather more info, I'm OK at that. My location has its limitations. My love is historic perspective....that is why I enjoy writing essays like Arts and Crafts, Alison in Japan, Depression era (ANGC, Bethpage & Ohio State), etc.-- presenting golf architecture in a more worldly perspective. Delving into cultural and economic influences. Why not expand my horizons while at the same time exploring golf architecture. But certainly I can do better...I would appreciate any concrete criticism you can lend...if you don't have anything concrete, a blanket criticism will suffice.

You are correct I have no desire to become a green committee man....I'll leave that to you and Pat.

David
As far as I know the Bethpage courses were the only new projects Tilly had during the Depression. Although the Red is not as severely bunkered as the Black, it is well bunkered, including bunkers in the dreaded DH Zone. Both courses were completed while Tilly was on his PGA tour.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 09:58:48 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #224 on: April 02, 2004, 11:28:19 PM »
"I would appreciate any concrete criticism you can lend...if you don't have anything concrete, a blanket criticism will suffice.

You are correct I have no desire to become a green committee man....I'll leave that to you and Pat."

Tom MacW:

I'm sorry to say I guess I'd have to read that as just sarcastic, but perhaps it isn't entirely. I hope not and if not I'll take the suggestion and try and either offer something concrete or even a blanket criticism. Criiticism, don't forget, isn't always negative as most today assume it is.

I've always viewed you as an excellent researcher, in the sense that you seem capable of coming up with really valuable material. Sometimes the way you seem to analyze it though, really does make me scratch my head. You confuse me even further by writing articles like the five "Arts and Crafts" pieces which are definitely about the best in the history of this webasite but then the sort of lazy logic you've been using on this thread makes me wonder how you managed to put together those "Arts and Crafts" pieces as well as you did.

I guess in some very limited way I can see your continuous point that you really have no concern about the feeling of a membership of a golf course either historically or today as that keeps your research pure or unadulerated or some such logic. Pat occasionally accuses you of viewing this subject from the vantage of an ivory tower and tonight I agree with Pat on that more than ever.

Maybe I'm wrong about this but it appears to me you've viewed and analyzed this subject of Tillinghast in the depression and his PGA project without a scintilla of feeling for whatall went on in that era. It looks to me as if you view it only in that cold comfort of your perspective in 2004 looking back at that difficult era long past. I don't think that's a good way to look at history--I think that creates a revisonist historical perspective, and you say you enjoy delving into this subject from an historical perspective.

But nevertheless, and despite all the disagreements we've had on here you certainly are one of the most valuable contributors on here for years and for various reasons, in my opinion. The disagreements we've had and the discussions we've all had over those disagreements (as well as the agreements and consensuses) has made for the really good dynamic that makes this website so interesting.

The primary thing I'll keep fighting for on here, though, is when any of us look back on some age long past and try to analyze it accurately that we do all we can to first strip away everything that we know that came after that age that they who lived and worked back then never could've known. Then, I think, we'll be able to look at that era more, or most accurately. We need to feel that we're almost able to truly feel and almost smell that time (sans what evolved after it!).

And when you keep reiterating you have no interest at all in memberships of golf clubs or in green committees or in the dynamics of green committees, the very thing that's the stewardship of clubs, courses and architecture, I've got to say I view that as a cop-out, even a reason for lack of understanding both today or of any time. You should try to understand those things too--because it lends perspective to this entire subject either today or in any age or era!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 11:35:19 PM by TEPaul »

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