[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom Paul,
In my view of things, the bunker was just one of those "added" touch-ups that any course needs to make the strategy even more defined. It was really needed for the better player, not so much the everyday guy who had better options going left. But the thought of running a chip onto a sloped bank and then letting it trickle on there to the pin would be another aspect for the Less talented driver/Excellent short game player.  The kind of guy that is going to let his game speak not in length, but in short irons and putting. You know, guys like YOU!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato & Jeff Fortson,

How much of a negative influence has the L-wedge had on the play of the hole and it's architectural values ?

Did the creation of the L-wedge permit better players to try to get as close to the green as possible ?

[Doug Siebert]

Ah OK, Peter's post answers my question.  There seems to be quite a good chance of failing to make par from that right rough after all!

Doug,
From my post above:

Last year, many were going for the green only to push the ball on the right side, then forced with the reality of having to flop a shot out of Kikuya rough and get the ball to stop on that sliver of a green. It's an almost impossible task.

Well, that statement of yours wasn't strong enough I guess, it didn't make it clear to me that a par would be a great score from there.  If I can't stop the ball on the green because its shallow from that angle and tilted away from me then it goes long, fine.  If I'm left with an uphill chip from the rough (if I'm assuming that greenside rough is reasonable stuff) a bit over the green 20' from the hole I can probably make par fairly often.  But Peter was talking about taking 4 to get over the bunker -- that must be some really damn serious rough over there!

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Pat I don't think the L wedge has changed things much.  Out of kikuyu rough, nothing grabs on the green.  And any good sand wedge from the kikuyu fairway has always grabbed.  The thing is the look.  It appears you need to land the wedge shot onto the top of your car's hood.  As Johnny Miller would say, "it will tighten your fanny."
If you are coming in from the right or for than matter over any bunker, you cannot hold any wedge within 5 feet of it landing spot.
This is even more true as you get closer to the green.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
One time at #3, I played for short of the right greenside bunker, thinking that because I failed to get my drive to the left side of the fairway, I would have just play the hole as a three-shotter and try to make par from there with a one putt.

I pulled out my trusty, tried and true Callaway Hi Lob Hickory Stick, and hit about as high of a flop as humanly possible. This thing went sky-high, and it looked like I nailed the distance perfectly.

It then took-off like the charge of the light brigade and ran almost off of the back of the green. This was as high of a lob as possible! Mind you its going down canyon which does make a difference at Riv.

And I did make the putt too by the way. About a 16 footer, my first ever par there on a hole Lynn will attest gave me nothing but problems the first time I ever played it.

Doug, Well your response just isn't strong enough either!

For today's player, the "L" wedge or Hi Lob club is an important one at Riviera. All the more reason to understand how the technology has sort of misplaced the importance of the architecture. Still, try getting one of those "L" wedges thru about 3-4 inches of Kikuya rough and tell me the truth if you didn't strain or break your wrist! Huckaby will tell you how that feels!

Also, in the US Senior Open, I saw Dave Stockton hit his ball from the green side Kikuya rough at #18, and the ball popped-up about two inches and then settled even deeper into it, right in the same exact spot. He wasn't even able to take a divot! To think of someone trying to hit a high-lob from the right side of #10 and then try to hold it is close to impossible. You might be able to do it if the pin is more towards the rear, but as far as the front 2/3rds of the green--fahgidaboudit!

"Those sausage & peppers? Fahgidaboudit!"

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
In my view of things, the bunker was just one of those "added" touch-ups that any course needs to make the strategy even more defined. It was really needed for the better player, not so much the everyday guy who had better options going left."

TommyN:

I agree. I think on the tee shot alone that right greenside bunker absolutely and specifically "defines" the line for the long driver attempting to go right at and near or on the green. He knows (as Love did in 1998) he really can't stray even a yard right of the line from the tee to the left side of that right greenside bunker. And that is "defining" that strategy for him. Is "defining" a strategy more what's needed? Not in my book! I prefer a philosophy of "anti-definition". I think it serves to make strategies appear to the golfer through both continuous play and experience, not just visuals.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
In contrast, thinking of the way Rustic Canyon #12 came out, you will someday see what the hole is actually like without the bunker, or at least you'll be able to understand it much better. (Not that the 12th was a copy or emulation. More of an inspiration)

I've seen mroe guys try to drive that hole only to end up way too long and way to right because of the way the balls feeds off of the slope. the ball gets on that green and looks like its on its way to Oxnard.

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

That's exactly what I mean. Rustic Canyon's #12 is the same basic concept as Riviera's #10 with at least one very different wrinkle. Or at least that was the idea before it got built.

Obviously at Riv's #10 there are a number of different options from the tee that makes the hole so good and those options appear to be in a fairly steady "balance" or "equilibrium" over the years, in that they all seem to be used indiscriminately by even very good players. In other words, it seems that no one ever seems to settle on one way or the best way to play it. But Riv's #10 has a considerable amount of fairway bunkering on an enormous fairway and always has had. That bunkering does dictate tee shot decisions to a large extent.

At Rustic's #12 the concept discussed was to do that or how to do that with no bunkering on an enormously wide fairway while at the same time getting players to figure out both why and how it really did make a difference where you placed your ball on that tee shot---obviously depending on where the pin was.

Some of what was discussed out there was the idea that if an arrangement could be created that could eventually get players to understand that despite that huge unencumbered fairway (no bunkers at all on it unlike Riv #10) that the hole might really be sophisticated because it would basically force players to think more in "whole hole" strategic way instead of the more common way of overcoming the problem on a tee shot frist and after that was done then beginning to consider and overcome the problems on the approach shot.

They wanted the players to notice the green and it's particular pin before deciding what to do on the tee shot. That was what it was all about---and that's why it was decided that no bunkering should go on the fairway. At least that's my recollection.

Riviera's #10 was probably mentioned at some point but there certainly was no attempt made to actually copy the look of it--just the same basic multi-optional tee shot and a green that could kick strategy all the way back to the tee shot.

GeoffShac sent me a whole bunch of really good photos of it from all kinds of angles but I've never seen it in person. We all did discuss the fact that doing such a big fairway with no bunkering at all on it could be a bit risky in that it might have been that most players simply didn't see the point of it and might just criticize the tee shot for being too easy.

All I said to Geoff and Jim is that obviously with that arrangement the green itself sure did have to kick back a ton of actual strategy to the tee. I said that had to happen by making a player realize over time that even if he thought he hit a good tee shot without thinking about where on that fairway it was that green was going to have to make him really pay on the approach shot if he happened to hit what he thought was a good tee ball but into the wrong place on that big unencumbered fairway.

I can't really remember that well now but I think I might've been visualizing a green that had a ridge running from front left to back right that would dictate the best place to come from on that fairway depending on the pin. I don't remember if I mentioned a green formation like that only that the green had to make players pay for being in the wrong place without realizing it.

I'm certainly not talking about removing the right greenside bunker on Riviera's #10---this to me is simply a discussion of a concept and how it would work best in play.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

TE Paul,

I got a bit confused with your response but I beleive we agree about the importance of the line of instinct and that it is not intended to take away an option.  In fact I think the line of instinct recognizes the importance of bringing into play the direct line between the tee and the green.  It seems it is a distinct design concept from the doglegged hole.  There are many courses with one or two holes that could be vastly improved had the line of instinct been brought into the design.  On every routing I draw the lines of instinct and examine them in the field to see how they can be brought into the desing of the hole.  On a well bunkered hole like the 10th at Riviera it seems you have a doglegged hole if you follow the layout to the left and then back right to the green, a doglegged right hole, but the line of instinct has opened up another avenue, and added more avenues of play between the traditional far left line that makes it a doglegged hole, and the line of instinct, as Jeff's diagram shows there are many avenues of play between these two lines, so I think the line of instinct concept is a much richer, more exciting advancement on the typical doglegged hole.  

One other thing it seems that the recognition of the line of instinct in design may get diminished because of the preceived threat to holes by the increase in distance from the new technology.  in otherwords some may fear opening up the direct line between the tee and the green because it makes the hole "shorter" for some.  That would be one unfortunate tragedy to come from advanced technology in equipment.  Forcing everyone to play along the longest line of play from tee to green would diminish the quality of golf.

[George Pazin]

Interesting question, George.

Why would it be less interesting for pros today?

Remember it is 315 to the middle, so say 310 to the left front edge.  There aren't many, if any, pros for whom that's not a driver.

I'd say the temptation for them is even greater today, as so many more can reach that front edge, and not with some herculean shot... Not too many years ago, it was out of reach for damn near all of them, so the choice was simple, as a few have explained here - just plunk down a 2iron and try to stay left.

What's your thinking here?

TH

Just seems like we're approaching the point of just pull out the driver and hit it.

I read a book a long time ago called Through the Green (I think) that detailed the '92 LA Open as seen through the eyes of DLIII, who ended up losing in a playoff to Freddie. He goes through an agonizing process each day trying to decide whether or not to layup. I think he went for it more often than he laid up, usually to his detriment.

Now, back then DLIII was enough longer than the average Tour player that he was probably faced with a decision the rest weren't. But the distances have increased so much that I wonder if the "just plunk a 2 iron" hasn't changed to "just hit driver".

This is not to say it isn't still one of the best, maybe the absolute best, hole that the big boys face all year. It just shows how fine the lines are.

As an aside, in the book I referenced, Davis describes an area near the green as the barranca, an unkempt area that was marked as a hazard (important because it ended up being part of a ruling where someone accused him of grounding his club - he was absolved). Where is this barranca?

[THuckaby2]

Just seems like we're approaching the point of just pull out the driver and hit it.

I read a book a long time ago called Through the Green (I think) that detailed the '92 LA Open as seen through the eyes of DLIII, who ended up losing in a playoff to Freddie. He goes through an agonizing process each day trying to decide whether or not to layup. I think he went for it more often than he laid up, usually to his detriment.

Now, back then DLIII was enough longer than the average Tour player that he was probably faced with a decision the rest weren't. But the distances have increased so much that I wonder if the "just plunk a 2 iron" hasn't changed to "just hit driver".

This is not to say it isn't still one of the best, maybe the absolute best, hole that the big boys face all year. It just shows how fine the lines are.

As an aside, in the book I referenced, Davis describes an area near the green as the barranca, an unkempt area that was marked as a hazard (important because it ended up being part of a ruling where someone accused him of grounding his club - he was absolved). Where is this barranca?

That's not the case at all, George.  Watch the tourney this week.  If anything there's way more thought today.  Not many still do go for the green - just a heck of a lot more than ever have, that's all.

I know of no hazard on 1o... there's such on 11... maybe that's what Davis was describing?

TH

[Paul_Turner]

It's an amazing hole.

How receptive does the green have to be kept, to give at least a fighting chance of holding the green from the right hand side?


It's hole that could only have been designed inland IMO.

[ForkaB]

It's an amazing hole.

How receptive does the green have to be kept, to give at least a fighting chance of holding the green from the right hand side?


It's hole that could only have been designed inland IMO.

Paul

Why do you make that last statement?  I can think of at least one great links hole which could be made greater, using a few of the principles of Riviera #10.

BTW........

This IS one of the great GCA threads, despite the occasional and unfortunately typical mindless Barney bashing.  Great job Jeff!  And, yes, this format should be a feature of this site.  There is more real GCA in Jeff's first post than a month of the rest of us combined rabbiting on self-importantly........

[THuckaby2]

shiv:

Fair and sincere question:  you hit the ball as long or longer than most pros.  If trying to reach the green was your goal, would you sincerely do it with anything less than driver?  And IF you were playing this in serious competition, would it be "just pull out the driver and hit it" as George says?  That is, that driving it is so doable, with so little risk, that the options really aren't there for the big hitter other than to just fire away.

Note I'm not asking "playing for the hell of it, hole by hole, just caring about making birdies" shivas.  I'm asking the "competitive, needs to think carefully" shivas that is still in there and does come out from time to time when need be.  

I don't see it this way, but George is very astute and has me questioning a bit my original thought that it's more interesting today than it ever has been, because so many more people can now think of getting close to the green....in the old days most couldn't reach anyway, so that temptation didn't exist.

Whaddya think?

TH

[Mike Benham]

Fair and sincere question:  you hit the ball as long or longer than most pros.  If trying to reach the green was your goal, would you sincerely do it with anything less than driver?  

Tom -

I think the issue of driver or not depends on the design features of the hole and the playing conditions.

Use #3 at Rustic as an example.  I by know means am a long driver and I was on the green twice with driver.  Someone of Shivas length could very easily get there with 3-wood because of the fairway firmness.  Ditto the 15th or 16th at TPC Scottsdale.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

I get that, without a doubt.  Re #3 Rustic, hell I reached that with a freakin' 3iron down-gale.  I also can definitely reach that with a driver with no wind, due to the slight downhill nature and firm and fast conditions you usually have there.  So for shivas, it's a 3wood or 2iron, the equivalent of my driver.  No problem there.

But that ain't #10 Riv...

Which is, as I understand it and remember it, 310 to the front edge, rarely if ever has a helping wind, is if anything completely flat, and doesn't get NEARLY the roll you'd get at Rustic or TPC Scottsdale, particularly in early February.

With that as a basis, please do take another stab at my question... is 310 with basically no help really a ROUTINE driver or 3-wood, such that it's so in range the choice NOT to try it seems non-existent?

It seems to me that's what George is saying, and I just can't buy it.

But I am a short-knocker, often out of touch with how far the big hitters really do hit the ball.  Thus my question.

TH

[George Pazin]

Lordy, Huck, anyone who takes what I say from 3000 miles away should be banned!

I don't honestly know the specifics of this hole (perhaps my-all-time-favorite-having-never-played hole ). I simple asked if for pros it had become a simple matter of "pull driver and hit it".





Still hoping Tommy or Lynn can answer my question about the barranca....

[THuckaby2]

shivas:

Many thanks, great stuff.  I believe I have this correct - you reaffirm my thinking, anyway.

Just one other thing though:  I didn't mean the first question to be anything other than specific to #10 Riviera.  Hell, there are par 4's out there you can likely reach with 5iron given enough helping variables.  That's not the question.  What I want to know is on THAT GOLF HOLE - #10 Riv - at 310 with no help and not much chance of roll - is that ever gonna be less than driver for you?

TH



TH

[THuckaby2]

George:  it is a very valid question!  I'm just trying to see if I am out of touch with how far the big hitters do hit it these days.  310, no help, not much roll... if that's less than driver, then I know I am very out of touch.

As for barranca, I really think he was talking about a different hole.  I'd be shocked if there was ever any barranca on 10... it's just not part of the landscape...

TH

[THuckaby2]

Shivas:  many thanks.  I am often out of touch with reality re golf and life, but this just REALLY sounded wrong to me.

So if reaching the green is the choice taken, it's gonna be driver, and it damn well better be hit well, and straight.  Look at the pic... that's not a very big target.  Jeff explains PERFECTLY where the good and bad misses are... it really seems to me there are more bad than good - anything right is dead, in the front bunker isn't exactly great, left rough isn't a horrid place but not nice... long is ok, short and left is ok..

I just can't see it being a thoughtless bang away, as George postulated.  But George, as I say, you did get me thinking.  No harm, no foul.

And dammit this remains a great golf hole.  Tommy and Jeff and those who love it are right... the more you think about it, the better it gets.

TH

[George Pazin]

The reason that I asked the question is drawn largely from the differnce is a 40 yard pitch and a 20 yard chip. In the latter, even a hack like me can hope reasonably for birdie or at least par. It the former, anything goes.

I hope that for time immemorial, Riviera #10 remains an anything goes hole. I fear that it will not. That's why I asked the question.



Still hoping for Tommy, Lynn or Geoff to chime in on the barranca. Can't be that my memory is that bad....

[THuckaby2]

George:

Gotcha.  Just remember that the pros don't like 40 yard pitches any more than you do, really, and in fact most actively try to avoid them.  Getting to the 20 yard chip zone really isn't worth the risk for the most part...

And sure, don't trust me re the barranca.  But if I were a betting man, and I am - I'd give 7 to 1 there has never been any semblance of barranca on this golf hole - at least when DLIII played it - and your memory is therefore faulty, on this one issue.

 

[Pete Lavallee]

George,

I've been to Riviera many times to watch the LA Open and have played it once. There is no barranca anywhere on 10. There is one on 11, which must be carried with your second shot on the par 5. Don't really know what is behind the hedge at the back of the green. It is pretty gnarly to the right of the green; you'll see quite a few pros playing from there next weekend.

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Pete.  I TRIED[/i] to tell him the barranca was on 11, but nooooooo.... don't trust me......

 

TH

ps - you coming to Stevinson for TKPIV?

[Pete Lavallee]

Although I'd rather play Riviera  , I'll be coming, work schedule permitting. I am hoping things firm up soon and will commit then.

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