[Tommy Williamsen]

I wonder how Fazio feels about this.


https://www.trumpnationaldc.com/golf/champion-course

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Was Fazio involved in the renovation?


Venue for the 2017 Senior PGA Championship, this renovated layout could almost be considered an entirely new course. Trump cobbled together holes from existing Tom Fazio and Arthur Hills designs, added a few new holes and yanked out a line of huge trees to provide spectacular unobstructed views of the Potomac River.

[/size]https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/01/24/donald-trumps-10-best-golf-courses







https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/digger/wp/2015/06/23/trump-tees-up-25-million-in-upgrades-at-loudoun-golf-club/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e60a5a824ab7

[Ian Mackenzie]

Donald J Trump Signature course is another way of saying:


"A cart-ballers dream with a sophisticated network of paved paths, some with tolls, where you may speak freely on your cell phone while grazing on cheeseburgers and diet coke."


"Guests are welcomed for their 5 hour round with an assortment of DJT-branded products designed in an effort to extract maximum post-round revenue from you as the course itself struggles to make ends meet under the strain of Russian oligarch funding and a distinct dearth of visitors as most of DJT's loyalists cannot afford to play on any of his properties or purchase any of his #MAGA items even though they are all manufactured in Asia."


"Most golf course enthusiasts look forward to playing these properties in the coming years under new ownership when inevitable ecomomic headwinds return and Mr. Trump himself must sell them at 30 cents on the dollar to avoid being knee-capped by the Russian mafia."

[Eric Smith]

Was Fazio involved in the renovation?

No Collusion!

[corey miller]

Glad we got the politics out of the way. Very enlightening.


Is the Trump model any different than his competitors in each individual market? 


I suspect many of his private clubs are more "golf oriented" than the nearby privates?

[Garland Bayley]

I suspect many of his private clubs are more "golf oriented" than the nearby privates?

If you are more golf oriented, then why would you need an opulent club house?

I suspect the modest clubs that let their club houses deteriorate while keeping their course up are more golf oriented.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Glad we got the politics out of the way. Very enlightening.


Is the Trump model any different than his competitors in each individual market? 


I suspect many of his private clubs are more "golf oriented" than the nearby privates?

Corey -


Sadly, in the context of this question, it is not possible to separate the issues and still maintain a relevant discussion.


Why?


Well, primarily because HE is the most divisive figure in the history of American politics.
So, as a golf property owner, his "club success" is directly tied to his base of supporters. (~37% +/- of the US population)


Meaning: There just aint too many "Non Republicans" frequenting Trump properties as members or daily fee guests. (Maybe with Turnberry and Aberdeen as exceptions.)

His actions and career choices have set that stage.
Hard to compare anything Trumpian to "competitors" as they do not have those issues.

The only personal experience I can discuss is the Trump Hotel here in Chicago.
I have been there 4 times. Once for breakfast, once for lunch and twice for a drink ALL with clients.

(The hotel is absolutely in the dead center of Chicago on the river.)

1. Breakfast - 7:30 am on a weekday in February and May. There were 6 other people in the restaurant.
2. Lunch: 12:30 on a Thursday and there was one other table with what looked like a European couple.
3. Drinks: very light crowd at 6:00.

Sure, it's Chicago and it's a city of Democrats. But, with every restaurant downtown here brimming at capacity, the stink and stain of Trump repels potential clients.

Gotta be the same thing with his myriad golf properties.

[corey miller]

Ian


Very glad to hear the popular downtown restaurants in Chicago are fine....Obviously all is well in the city


Your post, if you remove politics, was focused on the golf experience at the Trump facilities.  My belief is that it is no different than its competition in any of the markets. 


Guess what, they are either public facilities or privates in markets where there is a lot of entrenched classic club but where Trump is competing for more of the newer people who perhaps don't have the respect for golf tradition that so many here obviously have. 


Five hour round? Cartball? drinking? cigars? piedmontese beef? It is not only Trump and prior to his actually being elected there seemed to be a consensus that his facilities provided a pretty good option for many.

[Tommy Williamsen]

From Ron Whitten about the course.


This was originally the Lowes Island Club, which consisted of 36 holes, the Island Course designed by Tom Fazio in 1993 and the River Course designed by Arthur Hills in 1999. Five years ago it was purchased by the businessman who would later become the 45th President of the United States. To better utilize the land's frontage along the Potomac River in a single 18, Tommy Fazio (Tom's nephew) was retained to reroute and remodel the two 18s and create a Championship Course. The opening two holes were from the Fazio layout, three thru eight are from the Hills design, and the dramatic par-3 ninth right on the river shoreline is a Fazio II original. The back nine consists totally of Fazio's holes, all remodeled by his nephew. When the new clubhouse was built, Trump added a circular rock waterfall behind the 18th.  GD November 29, 2016

[Edward Glidewell]

Based on that description it sounds like they would have been much much better off just keeping Fazio's Island Course untouched. A combination of Art Hills and Tom Fazio's nephew doesn't sound like a great proposition.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I really liked the original Fazio course. I didn't much care for the Hills course. Too much water. I think the land Hills was given almost demanded the lakes. Seems it was built on a marsh. Making an amalgam of the two made no sense.

[Edward Glidewell]

I really liked the original Fazio course. I didn't much care for the Hills course. Too much water. I think the land Hills was given almost demanded the lakes. Seems it was built on a marsh. Making an amalgam of the two made no sense.

I know he doesn't get a lot of respect around here, but I've never played a bad Tom Fazio course. I'd happily return to any of them. Maybe he doesn't always max out the land he's given, but he at least seems to consistently build something solid and playable and doesn't absolutely botch it.


Art Hills, on the other hand... I've only played two of his (I think) but I would never play either of them again.

[Michael Whitaker]

I'll bet Mr. Fazio has the same feelings about his course as Mr. Hawtree has about this sign at Trump's Balmedie course...

[Terry Lavin]

He’s like a port-a-potty on the 4th of July. Basically full of it. But that doesn’t mean the courses he owns aren’t worthy of playing.


I’d rather play miniature golf with tiny hands than play his corporate haunts, but I’ll respect the opinions of our fellow posters about the relative merits and demerits of the courses bearing his name.

[Ian Mackenzie]

He’s like a port-a-potty on the 4th of July. Basically full of it. But that doesn’t mean the courses he owns aren’t worthy of playing.


I’d rather play miniature golf with tiny hands than play his corporate haunts, but I’ll respect the opinions of our fellow posters about the relative merits and demerits of the courses bearing his name.

I agree.


But, you just gotta wonder...what kind of CEO routinely insults the intelligence of a large percentage of his potential clients? Very odd business strategy.


As for his courses, with a few exceptions, it’s a perfectly manicured, over-watered “Tom Fazios Greatest Hits” wash/rinse/repeat cycle of sameness.

[Mike Hendren]

Do you get one or two scoops of ice cream at the halfway house?  As a former Golfweek rater I need to know in advance.

Bogey

[corey miller]

He is the president and though he acts in ways that many disapprove of I am sure he is not considering the viability of Trump Golf when he tweets in the middle of the morning.

So in answer to your question Ian, his statements have nothing to do with Trump Golf and there are many CEO's that denigrate and offend large percentages of the client base.  Guess what...Trump is not one of them. 

and as for his courses, thanks for the comments on Fazio though you have failed to address any specific design or design element at a Trump Golf facility. 

My experience is that I have rarely played a Fazio course that I would deem bad, (Oyster Bay comes close but that was a little different than a typical Fazio project) and I have not played one that is particularly inspiring. 

I have played Trump Westchester which was an early project where he improved the failed private that had been there, worked with the neighbors and locals (some say browbeat them) to improve property values in the area, and constructed a course and club that met the needs of the county.  That is, it provided what many golfers look for in a club.

It is not a course that appeals to me and I would have no interest in playing it again but it was a reasonable competitor in the market and I never got the impression that the "golfing culture" was any different than the lions share of the clubs in the area.

Heck, maybe he was listening to what his consumers wanted.   

[Ian Mackenzie]

He is the president and though he acts in ways that many disapprove of I am sure he is not considering the viability of Trump Golf when he tweets in the middle of the morning.

So in answer to your question Ian, his statements have nothing to do with Trump Golf and there are many CEO's that denigrate and offend large percentages of the client base.  Guess what...Trump is not one of them. 

and as for his courses, thanks for the comments on Fazio though you have failed to address any specific design or design element at a Trump Golf facility. 

My experience is that I have rarely played a Fazio course that I would deem bad, (Oyster Bay comes close but that was a little different than a typical Fazio project) and I have not played one that is particularly inspiring. 

I have played Trump Westchester which was an early project where he improved the failed private that had been there, worked with the neighbors and locals (some say browbeat them) to improve property values in the area, and constructed a course and club that met the needs of the county.  That is, it provided what many golfers look for in a club.

It is not a course that appeals to me and I would have no interest in playing it again but it was a reasonable competitor in the market and I never got the impression that the "golfing culture" was any different than the lions share of the clubs in the area.

Heck, maybe he was listening to what his consumers wanted.   

1. You do not cite a thing related to architecure yet ask why I dont either. Heck, I did...same sauce Fazio...got a big chuckle out of that...


You say, "thanks for the comments on Fazio though you have failed to address any specific design or design element at a Trump Golf facility"....seriously, I did not even attempt to. But, specifically, you are not even coming close to a relevant comment outside of your ambivalence to Fazio - something to which we can both agree....;-)


2. "It is not a course that appeals to me and I would have no interest in playing it again"...yup...exactly..agreement. Crap business model and supports my biased editorials.

3. Rarely deeming a Fazio course as being "bad" is not really a glowing recommendation especially as Trump's are bloody $$.

I appreciate your ardent reinforcement of my snarky comments on Fazio, Corey.

[cary lichtenstein]

The moderator should delete this thread

[corey miller]

Guess what Ian......


I don't have to play Trump Westchester again, I have a fine place to play right over the hill so my return says nothing. 


Just because you don't like all the pomp and circumstance of a Trump facility does not make it a "bad business model".


Is Starbucks a bad business model if I don't like the coffee or the faux environmental lectures?


Trump gives the market what it is seeking, much like he does in the real estate market where for the last twenty years projects have been licensing his name. His golf project in Briarcliff (again probably his least architecturally significant) still met the standards of the area in every category.  Even if not a knockout blow to the blue blood golf scene in the area, with it's course, and facilities it was dealing a blow to many others.  Do you know how many clubs have gone under in Westchester since Trump revitalized this one? probably 6-8...


All your criticism of the Trump Golf model are criticisms of where golf is (which is fine) wrapped up in a silly political commentary (which is fine I guess though Cary resents that) but don't act like the latter is not the reasoning behind the former in your posts.


Should I consider Trump Tower a bad business model because I don't like gold plated escalators?


And just a little "fun fact" from a recent charity outing I participated in that had a silent auction of golf days at four different clubs in the Metro area.


Trump Briarcliff "sold" for the most (I purchased another club), near $3000 multiples above the others.  That is not a bad business model and again as far as I can tell, the Trump club matches what the people are looking for in the various areas.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Guess what Ian......


I don't have to play Trump Westchester again, I have a fine place to play right over the hill so my return says nothing. 


Just because you don't like all the pomp and circumstance of a Trump facility does not make it a "bad business model".


Is Starbucks a bad business model if I don't like the coffee or the faux environmental lectures?


Trump gives the market what it is seeking, much like he does in the real estate market where for the last twenty years projects have been licensing his name. His golf project in Briarcliff (again probably his least architecturally significant) still met the standards of the area in every category.  Even if not a knockout blow to the blue blood golf scene in the area, with it's course, and facilities it was dealing a blow to many others.  Do you know how many clubs have gone under in Westchester since Trump revitalized this one? probably 6-8...


All your criticism of the Trump Golf model are criticisms of where golf is (which is fine) wrapped up in a silly political commentary (which is fine I guess though Cary resents that) but don't act like the latter is not the reasoning behind the former in your posts.


Should I consider Trump Tower a bad business model because I don't like gold plated escalators?


And just a little "fun fact" from a recent charity outing I participated in that had a silent auction of golf days at four different clubs in the Metro area.


Trump Briarcliff "sold" for the most (I purchased another club), near $3000 multiples above the others.  That is not a bad business model and again as far as I can tell, the Trump club matches what the people are looking for in the various areas.

Every major Metro area has a requisite "Douche trap", Corey. Glad it's not your home course....
I appreciate the model as it creates a concentration at one place and keeps them off the rest of the courses...

[V_Halyard]

He’s like a port-a-potty on the 4th of July. Basically full of it. But that doesn’t mean the courses he owns aren’t worthy of playing.


I’d rather play miniature golf with tiny hands than play his corporate haunts, but I’ll respect the opinions of our fellow posters about the relative merits and demerits of the courses bearing his name.

Dammit, this is why you can't have nice Supreme Court Nomination Things! 

[Nick Ribeiro]

Ian ~
Have you played any of his courses or been to any of his properties? I have been to Bedminster, Westchester, Hudson Valley, and Ferry Point this year and Doral 2 years ago. From my experience at Ferry Point and Doral I will say you are accurate about the longer rounds as both properties are very popular and attract tons of play. The private clubs attract members who are looking for more than what the classics around it offer. Modern luxury amenities and golf courses that test the modern player. The courses are long and hard from the tips, much longer and harder then the classics close by to them. The Trump Org has added tees and the amenities naturally attract a family friendly demographic looking for the luxury / high end experience which the organization delivers flawlessly. Because of the price Trump members are willing to pay they are able to deliver great golfing experience at the privates that does not take anywhere near 5 hours, unless you are playing the tips and can't handle the course?

[Garland Bayley]

Ian ~
Have you played any of his courses or been to any of his properties? I have been to Bedminster, Westchester, Hudson Valley, and Ferry Point this year and Doral 2 years ago. From my experience at Ferry Point and Doral I will say you are accurate about the longer rounds as both properties are very popular and attract tons of play. The private clubs attract members who are looking for more than what the classics around it offer. Modern luxury amenities and golf courses that test the modern player. The courses are long and hard from the tips, much longer and harder then the classics close by to them. The Trump Org has added tees and the amenities naturally attract a family friendly demographic looking for the luxury / high end experience which the organization delivers flawlessly. Because of the price Trump members are willing to pay they are able to deliver great golfing experience at the privates that does not take anywhere near 5 hours, unless you are playing the tips and can't handle the course?

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