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George Pazin

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Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« on: February 19, 2007, 04:45:23 PM »
Wish there were more holes like this in golf....

From the website:

Green   667
Blue   562
White   550
Red   466



Typically a three shot hole, this final par 5 is the toughest one at Oakmont.  You may use a 3-wood to hit the sloping fairway, then a long iron for the second shot to set up a wedge third shot.  The severe green slopes away from you, making approach shots and putts very difficult.

Boy, there is a lot going on with this hole!

Not obvious from the diagram - the hole meaners down a looooooong hill (sometimes Mattspeak works so well!). From the tee, the green looks like it's in another county. It might even be.

The green slopes away in a manner that is difficult to believe, even seeing it live in person. It is simply unreal to think the green could be that sloped and that fast.

Unreachable for mere mortals, word had it that Trip Kuehne reached it multiple times with 4 and 5 irons.

I saw the hole lost to bogeys several times during the week of the Am, and there isn't even a water hazard on the hole (though I don't know how the ditch is treated, rules-wise, maybe JohnV or someone else can help).

Photos, yardages, and overhead to follow.

Wow.

Last Week: Yo 'Lev! The 11th at Oakmont
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2007, 04:55:32 PM »
Oh yeah, the fairway also cants strongly to the right.

From the fairway, taken on the lower (right) side:


Looking back up the fairway:


The 12th green from the side:


The 12th green from the back:

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2007, 05:46:00 PM »
Wish there were more holes like this in golf....

holes with 20 bunkers??  :)

It is a beautiful hole, with great contour in the fairways.
The slight downhill nature makes it very visable.
It was fun to watch the Amateurs play this green.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 05:47:26 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

JohnV

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2007, 06:00:01 PM »
The ditches are lateral water hazards.

The hole will be played at 657 2 days and 625 the other 2.

The 657 tee is actually the back of the 10th tee, which is the one at the odd angle at the bottom of the diagram.

While it will still be reached as it is very severely downhill, it won't be held very often as it slopes off the back.

George Pazin

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2007, 06:00:52 PM »
Damn straight, 20 bunkers!

Here's the yardage and overhead:



Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve Burrows

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2007, 06:41:46 PM »
Here are a couple of more recent pictures: the first from the beginning of the fairway and the second from just short of the green, looking back towards the clubhouse.  The second really shows the slow, but dramatic elevation change (as well as the pronounced left-to-right slope) down the length of the fairway.  




...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Joe Perches

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2007, 07:11:00 PM »


Do Oakmont members ever play alternate routings?
It looks as if it could be a great deal of fun.

nandoal

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2007, 08:22:40 AM »
Playing this hole in November all I can remember is that I THOUGHT I played this hole great. On in 3 with 3 good shots putting for birdie. Pin is back middle.  I have 15 feet down the hill.  Well 4 putts later I make double.  First putt was off the green back right.  Hope they have fun with this one!

Jeff Doerr

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2007, 09:29:55 AM »
I think I'd like to play the REDS.  ;D

Thanks again George! With Open rough, that back 10th tee, those 20 bunkers, and that green...I've got to think that this is what the USGA is looking for. It should be very fun to watch.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.

James_Livingston

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 07:14:20 PM »
The 12th green from the side:


The 12th green from the back:

How much better (or not) would it be if it wasn't smothered in rough?  Especially around the green.  The bottom picture especially looks like it could be a poster child for how to kill short game options and variety.  It just looks appalling to have what appears to be such interesting contours buried under long grass.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 07:18:21 PM by James_L »

Mark_F

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 07:52:53 PM »
James,

Wouldn't it just be a six iron from wherever you were anyway? :)

Kalen Braley

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 09:02:59 PM »
Here are the clubs Johnny Miller used when he shot the 63 at Oakmont. And yes I know, I'm no expert with the camera work.


« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 09:03:51 PM by Kalen Braley »

James_Livingston

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2007, 12:11:59 AM »
Wouldn't it just be a six iron from wherever you were anyway? :)
Mark, this looks like the perfect example of that Geoff Ogilvy quote that someone has in their signature that the only shot he learns to play well in the US is the flop shot.

George, bearing in mind I've never been there and am relying on the overhead and the pictures, what is the strategic intent of the designer?

Garland Bayley

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2007, 11:52:10 AM »
Wouldn't it just be a six iron from wherever you were anyway? :)
Mark, this looks like the perfect example of that Geoff Ogilvy quote that someone has in their signature that the only shot he learns to play well in the US is the flop shot.

George, bearing in mind I've never been there and am relying on the overhead and the pictures, what is the strategic intent of the designer?

Check the signature line!  ;D

What I would like to know is why Tom Paul thinks this is one of the only truly strategic holes in the world (one the bunkers thread). What we have learned here is that Oakmont is very strategic in determining how far to hit the ball. If that is so, how can one of its holes be one of the only truly strategic holes? For example, compare to 14 at TOC.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2007, 11:56:26 AM »
James -

First of all, I am not an expert on either Oakmont or Mr. Fownes, so I can't pretend to know his intent. (I've never been a fan of trying to guess intent, but that's another question entirely.)

Keeping that in mind, I will simply say that the rough is bad, but I've seen worse (though maybe not worse than it will be for the Open, in all likelihood). It does often necessitate lob wedges around the green, but in all honesty, the shots are still different from most other courses with rough-surrounded greens, because the greens themselves have so much speed, pitch and contour. I don't think Ogilvy's perceptive comments apply here (they most certainly don't to the course as a whole), but that's obviously just my opinion.

Imho, the main intent of architecture is to promote thoughtful play, and in spite of how one-dimensional it may appear from the diagrams and photos, there are few, if any, courses that require more thought than Oakmont. It might be a different kind of thinking than most are accustomed to, but it most assuredly there. It is not simply hit-it-here-or-else, not even close.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2007, 11:59:44 AM »
Wouldn't it just be a six iron from wherever you were anyway? :)
Mark, this looks like the perfect example of that Geoff Ogilvy quote that someone has in their signature that the only shot he learns to play well in the US is the flop shot.

George, bearing in mind I've never been there and am relying on the overhead and the pictures, what is the strategic intent of the designer?

Check the signature line!  ;D

What I would like to know is why Tom Paul thinks this is one of the only truly strategic holes in the world (one the bunkers thread). What we have learned here is that Oakmont is very strategic in determining how far to hit the ball. If that is so, how can one of its holes be one of the only truly strategic holes? For example, compare to 14 at TOC.


I'm not trying to be coy, but maybe you just have to see it and play it to understand it. Trying to estimate where to land a ball on a course with the topography and firm and fast conditions of Oakmont is nowhere near as straightforward as you seem to think.

You are thinking on every single shot at Oakmont, and if you aren't, you pay the price.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2007, 12:25:00 PM »
There aren't supposed to be any trees left on Oakmont but somehow I think Wayne Morrison found a forest of trees with his tee shot off #12!  ;)

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2007, 05:59:36 PM »
Tom, are you trying to tell us that Wayne actually played a course which has no connection with William Flynn!  ;)
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Ian Andrew

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2007, 09:09:41 PM »
George,

Not having played Oakmont - I haven't commented on anything - sorry.

But I just wanted to say thanks, and I hope that someone provides links to all these around the time of the Open. The detail is remarkable - and it will certainly add to the joy of watching the games best players tackle the course.

Ian

Ryan Farrow

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2007, 12:44:06 AM »
This hole is so much harder when you you have to play out of both of those cross bunkers.

Sorry for the delay:
















A view of the chocolate drops and ditch on the left side of the fairway:




Garland Bayley

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2007, 10:39:31 AM »
This hole is so much harder when you you have to play out of both of those cross bunkers.

Sounds like the voice of experience.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2007, 11:30:26 AM »
Thanks again, Ryan. Your photos have been the highlight of these threads.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ryan Farrow

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2007, 06:03:46 PM »
Does anyone know the origin of those chocolate drops? They are also around 15 green and look beautifully out of place on that hole as well.

George, I'm glad I can make a difference. Its just a shame my pictures don't show how extremely uphill number 13 is  ;D

Scott Witter

Re:Week 12 - my favorite par 5, the wonderful 12th at Oakmont
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2007, 06:54:37 PM »
The latest photos are excellent and provide great detail, especially those incredible ditches!  They have to be one of most the ingenious features I have ever seen, penal sure, perhaps, but at the same very strategic and quite remarkable on many levels.  8) So simple, just a little ole ditch...what's the big deal, not some incredible work of art that took an architect hours of struggle to create, but pure and direct, right there on the edge of the fairway just waiting for the least slip up by the player.

As another observation that I didn't remember from visiting years ago was what seems to be a relatively shallow depth of the greenside bunkers...at least on #12.  Likely they are balanced against the severity of slope on the green, but clearly they are not as deep as the fairway bunkers.

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