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Golf Course Architecture / Re: EVERY course/club has a great par three option

« Last post by Erik J. Barzeski on Today at 04:05:33 PM »

Tobacco Road used to have a par three routing within its "mother course," but I don't know if that still exists.
I know it was called El Camino. I recall seeing some "weird" stakes through the years but never heard that anyone played it, it being mentioned/offered in the pro shop or the reason it existed.
Still curious.

It's still there.

https://tobaccoroadgolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/el-camino_scorecard.pdf
https://tobaccoroadgolf.com/course/

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: Miakka Golf Club new turf

« Last post by John Emerson on Today at 03:53:47 PM »

Looks amazing on the website.

They are the breeders and developers of that grass...of course it looks good! They need to sell it! As a hard rule when it comes to seed/sod cultivars, never ever listen to the recommendations of a distributor or salesperson. Anecdotes are not the plural of data also. NTEP.org is the first place one should go before buying any plant material.

I'm not sure who "they" are in your reference, but Bladerunner Farms out of Texas is the actual breeder & developer.


Yes, exactly what I said. As in "they" (blade runner) developed that cultivar of zoysiagrass


Bladerunner Farms - Zoysia Grass Sod


Also, while NTEP offers a nice baseline for data, it's certainly not the end all. I've seen (and managed) some of NTEPs most highly prized grasses only to see them fail miserably & miss their NTEP marks, so much so that one isn't used in Florida anymore especially considering all the new projects happening. One of NTEPS most highly "rated" putting green turf types isn't even in the conversation anymore.


The rate at which genetically improved breeding material is developed, as of the last couple decades,  outpaces the implementation. Perfect example - tall fescue cultivars that finished in the top statistical category from only 5 years ago were significantly outperformed by some of the newest varieties in the trial that just ended. Does this make the NTEP data worthless? Absolutely not. Improvements are happening too fast for the turfgrass managers to keep up. Another issue is the lack of testing sites. It is impossible to have trials in every type of environment turfgrass managers in the USA may experience.
Tony, if you have 8-10k extra sqft of space on your property, I encourage you to contact NTEP and offer them to host a trial. They will pay you a modest fee to host if you are selected and you'd provide a huge benefit to the industry.


Best advice for grass selection? Get a few pallets or regrass a tee, regrass a putting green & test the turf on the site-specific course for 2-3 years. I would not rely solely on NTEP & data trials. Too much money, pressure & expectations to put full faith in a trial/testing study.

I do not recommend this example to dictate cultivar selection because it would be compared to nothing. That's confirmation bias. Could it perform awesome? Sure, but relative to what? There may be a cultivar that outperforms the one being tested. In your example, it would be far more effective and beneficial to select a dozen or or so high performance cultivars and grow them on property before the final selection. That method might be valid, but growing one is anecdotal.


NTEP is the undisputed premier source of turfgrass cultivar data. To dismiss the data collected and value provided to the industry is disingenuous.

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: Belmont GC (NLE) Tillinghast 1917, Ross 1921, others. (Cannot upload photos)

« Last post by Erik J. Barzeski on Today at 03:34:15 PM »

      I take exception to the sign where it states, "Belmont is one of two-and the first-public Tillinghast courses to have hosted a major championship, joining Bethpage Black."
      Belmont never hosted a major championship. The 1949 PGA championship was contested on the Tillinghast-designed golf course at the Hermitage Country Club which would later become the public course known as the Belmont golf course.

I appreciate the nit-picking, but if you rename a course, it retains the history. Belmont (then Hermitage) hosted a major. Hermitage still exists… at a different place and with different golf courses, but they can't claim to have hosted the major at those courses, even though they kept the name.

Was Hermitage public in 1949? If not, then your second point applies to them as well.

      If one wants to say that I'm nitpicking, then the sign is still incorrect in two ways. Cedar Crest Country Club was the site of the 1927 PGA Championship which was contested on its Tillinghast-golf course. Years later it would become, and still is, the Cedar Crest Golf Course, one of the city of Dallas, Texas municipal courses, making IT the first public Tillinghast golf course to host a major championship and that there have been 3 major championships held on Tillinghast public golf courses.

Cedar Crest wasn't public when it hosted the major, was it? If it wasn't public at the time but later became public, that doesn't count in my book.

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: Belmont GC (NLE) Tillinghast 1917, Ross 1921, others. (Cannot upload photos)

« Last post by Phil Young on Today at 01:43:48 PM »

Scott, if you would like to know whether or not Tilly, Burbeck or anyone else designed Bethpage Black, you should read the book, Bethpage State Park and the Three Geniuses Who Created It.

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind

« Last post by Ben Sims on Today at 01:40:05 PM »

Live by the sword and die by the sword. When I was in the AF, it was both highly rewarding and sometimes ridiculous sitting in the airplane at an air show and talking to the people standing in line to see the jet. There’s well-meaning hobbyists, kids with curiosity, and the occasional fanboy that gets too fresh. I’m guilty of having been all of those when I’ve interacted with golf architects and I’m okay admitting that. As long as the golf architects admit that the positives of interest in their work outweigh the negative.

All that to say, a hit dog barks. Woof woof.

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: El Boqueron Update

« Last post by Mike_DeVries on Today at 12:53:43 PM »

I haven't been on GCA for quite some time, so found the new info on the last page very interesting.  Thanks for the continued research!

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: EVERY course/club has a great par three option

« Last post by Craig Sweet on Today at 12:21:46 PM »

Things that I have seen at clubs where I have worked:   Glow ball night...disruption of irrigation schedule and spent Glow sticks everywhere.....Nine hole food tasting event...over flowing trash bins on every tee box.....Putting green obstacle course with straw bales and water hazards (hole dug in green and water basin placed in hole)....the previous mentioned junior tees.


All add time and costs to maintenance of the course....


Mike, your membership is okay with the added costs of setting up and taking down the "par 3 course"?

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: 'Stadium' par-3 16th at TPC Scottsdale - good or bad？

« Last post by Kalen Braley on Today at 12:01:57 PM »

This happened at the LIV event this week but could have easily occurred at 16.

"Herbert had just made birdie on the 12th and was celebrating with boisterous fans when his caddie, Nick Pugh, was hit in the back of the head by a water bottle thrown by a patron while replacing the flag in the cup.
Pugh was knocked to his knees but managed to avoid serious injury. He eventually made his way back to the clubhouse at The Grange's Golf Club."

Curious what its gonna take before event organizers get serious about this?

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/40036990/caddie-hit-head-water-bottle-party-hole-liv-adelaide

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind

« Last post by Peter Sayegh on Today at 11:10:37 AM »

I was using my whole ass.

Matthew,


You may not be aware that for more than 25 years Tom Doak has been very gracious sharing his time and thoughts at golf course project sites where he has work underway.


Golf architecture for me has been a love of mine since I was about three years old.


Tim

Three years old? Wow. I was still trying to perfect my curveball at 18 months.

Tim, nice job condescending to Matt while still highlighting your syncophancy and meetings with Doak.

Anyone else notice that Tom made sure GCA was specifically mentioned in his opinion of armchair architects?

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Golf Course Architecture / Re: EVERY course/club has a great par three option

« Last post by Peter Sayegh on Today at 10:36:52 AM »

Tobacco Road used to have a par three routing within its "mother course," but I don't know if that still exists.
I know it was called El Camino. I recall seeing some "weird" stakes through the years but never heard that anyone played it, it being mentioned/offered in the pro shop or the reason it existed.
Still curious.