Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci_Jr on April 01, 2003, 07:37:34 AM
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Skyline greens have always fascinated me.
Even hybrid skyline greens.
I think of # 5 at The Creek as an excellent example of a skyline green.
# 18 at NGLA could be considered a hybrid skyline green, and when the trees are removed in the distance, a true skyline green.
#8 at Atlantic could be considered a hybrid/skyline green as well.
# 4 at Hollywood could be considered a skyline green too.
These greens seem to enjoy two elements, more wind exposure and no surrounding features to provide depth perception.
What are some of your favorite skyline greens, and why ?
SECOND QUESTION,
How does the length of your shot into a skyline green affect your feel for the hole and your evaluation of the hole ?
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Patrick:
Great question. I don't really know what's the best but I can tell you what might have been and even if it never was totally could certainly be now.
#2 Pine Valley!! It would be completely awesome with that significantly great raised green. The interesting point is that the trees visible behind the green now from the fairway (or even the tee) could be some of the most non-essential at PV--and that's lucky--all things considered.
Another great one there that once was but could probably never be again was left #9.
#8 NGLA might have a chance of being and interesting one but I wouldn't recommend it for a variety of reasons. You're right #18 will be an awesome skyline green!
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By skyline I presume you mean the green is elevated above your approach shot. The test there, particularly for me, is trying to hit a shot in there high enough to hold the green, since the elevation serves to flatten the trajectory of my approach.
I don't think a green has to be elevated to make the depth perception tricky. #2 at Kingsley Club comes to mind. There are no surrounding features so the depth perception issue causes uncertainty. The green is only 130 yds or so away and yet it is one of the most intimidating par 3's I'ved played of that length. The wind makes it that much tougher.
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I assume a skyline green has only the sky as a backdrop.
Regards,
Mike
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The 14th at Torrey Pines South was relocated back and to the left of the original by Rees Jones in a stroke of genius...nothing behind but an unending view of the ocean horizon...with the baranca between...depth perception is deceptive enough even the pros were hitting poor 130 yd approaches. Its so damn good most people refuse to see it for what it is...they just make bogey and enjoy the views.
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Shivas,
Doesn't that dogleg at Beverly that has your number have one hell of a skyline green...or is it the next hole...I just remember a green all perched up high in the air with no backdrop that was one hell of a bitch to hit.
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I very much like skyline greens and fairways (4th at Pine Valley, 16th at Dornoch, etc). With recent tree removal programs, mostly initiated by agronomic considerations in the Philly area, it is easy to consider the affect on golfer's minds as many greens that formerly had trees behind them no longer
do. The shots are more difficult without the visual cues.
With the trees removed from behind the 2nd green at Philadelphia Country Club and the depth perception cues removed, the approach shot is much more difficult to judge. There are large and deep fronting bunkers that you know have slope behind. An easy shot at one time is much more difficult...the only difference is the perception and how it weighs on the mind of the golfer.
18th green at Rolling Green had the rear greenside trees removed, it effects one's perception more so on a long 2nd shot into the green as opposed to a short 3rd shot approach.
There are some at Indian Creek (haven't been there but Craig Disher's photos show clearly) that look particularly interesting as water looms behind.
Yeamans Hall has a par 4 (8th?) with a skyline effect with the tidal marsh in the background.
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One reason Fishers Island is among my very favorites is because of its skyline greens, with the 3rd being a particular favorite - carrying a wedge all the way to the back hole locations is one of golf's most nervy approach shots, thanks to a steep drop/death just over the green.
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In addition to Ran's excellent example, I would also use the Knoll at Piping Rock. from the bottom of the hill the green is all skyline:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000041.jpg)
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From the left coast,
6th at Pebble ...
3rd at Spyglass ...
12th at Wente (Huckaby's favorite, not mine) ...
and for those that played Pajaro in the King's Putter, the 16th ...
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Donald Ross' 13th at Franklin Hills in suburban Detroit has a wonderful skyline green. The putting surface there sits atop a high, volcano-like knob, and is only about 1,500 sq. ft. The approach is definitely a '2 or 20' proposition!
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Pat - also, I don't think the 5th at The Creek is a skyline green, there is no push up on the green, and it is framed in the background by trees (albeit beyond the road). The best example of a skyline green at The Creek is, in my opinion, the 16th, where you play down into the Valley, and then back up into the green, which is framed by nothing except sky.
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The 13th at Piping Rock is a hole that immediately came to mind...thanks to SPDB for posting a great picture. It is a very difficult green to a back hole location.
The 18th at Huntingdon Valley is a great skyline green when the Flagstick is on the righthand portion of that green.
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Sean, did you mean #15 or 16 at the Creek? How about 17 at Prairie Dunes, at least in the 50's, but then it played as #8.
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Pat
I agree with Jeff on the 13th at Franklin Hills, totally unique and perhaps the ultimate skyline. The 13th at Pinehurst #2 is another that comes to mind.
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Isn't the original supposed to be the 11th (eden) at St. Andrews.
The last time I was at Pinehurst, they cleared away the trees and scrub behind the thirrd green and it is truly a terifying wedge shot to that tabletop green without the depth perception I remember from previous visits.
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I like #10 at Pacific Dunes, even from the upper tee, there's nothing to stop a shot that's too bold from rolling into the Pacific.
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The 16th at Whistling Straits?
I believe John Stiles once confirmed that the 17th at Holston Hills was a skyline now obscured by trees overlooking the river bluff. That would give a notable feature to what is today a rather pedestrian hole.
Regards,
Mike
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(http://home.triad.rr.com/dunlopwhiteiii/GCA17.jpg)
(http://home.triad.rr.com/dunlopwhiteiii/GCA17a.jpg)
Here are a couple of shots of the skyline green at Hole no. 17 at Roaring Gap Club which Donald Ross incorporated next to a mountain ledge about 3000 feet above sea level. Without a framework of trees or other vegetation, the approach lacks diminsion, containment, and points of visual reference. Golfers, therefore, must "feel" their approaches into the hole.
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Tom Fazio created a wonderful skyline green on the 9th hole of Pine Hill in New Jersey.
His 1st green at Galloway National also has some skyline qualities.
There, I feel better. ;D
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I could have sworn it looked different than this, but it feels more like a skyline hole at #11 at Plainfield than it looks here:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/000000941.jpg)
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I think they switched the nines, but the original 2nd at
Pinon Hills has a great skyline green.
Keith.
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redanman:
The reason I said in the 2nd post that I didn't really think the left 9th at PVGC would work that well anymore as a skyline green is because it could be exposed as a skyline again if they cut the trees down behind that green only. However, if they did that now it would look odd and probably contrived compared to what it once looked like as a skyline green back in the teens and 1920s. The reason is there are so many big trees on either side of that green and behind it returning it as a skyline would create and enormous gap and would look weird both approaching the green and also from #18 below.
I'm afraid the same basic problem exists if NGLA ever tried to make #8 into a Skyline--there's basically an enormous forest behind it and it would just create and odd looking gap
SPDB:
I think #13 Pipinng would be a great skyline green and obviously once was; unfortunately those enormous trees way behind the green down by the tennis courts are too big and you'd have to be right underneath the green extremely close to the green to make it work and being that close sort of makes it lose it's effectiveness.
Not a sklyine but another neat lack of depth perception hole is #9 Fishers with just the expanse of the bay directly behind it. I recall #7 is a skyline green too, I think. And #8 must be. I don't know what's behind #18 Fisher's either except a lot of trees but that might be another great candidate if the club got gutsy! I bet it was once a nice skyline! I know it must have been following the 1938 hurricane because there wasn't a single tree left standing on Fishers island after that gust!
But to me the mother of all skyline greens could be #2 Pine Valley. That hole from anywhere on the fairway with nothing but sky behind it would be an awesome sight--plus with the wind coming at you it might be about 5 more clubs instead of the 1-3 it generally is with the trees behind it.
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These aren't too bad:
(http://www.deltagolf.org/13tee%20from%20web.jpeg)
(http://www.deltagolf.org/images/2%20green.jpg)
(http://www.deltagolf.org/images/11%20looking%20north.jpg)
(http://www.deltagolf.org/images/15green%20web.jpg)
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On the Jersey side I have to say the 18th at Essex County. On the New York side how about the par-3 16th at Sleepy Hollow!
On the public front -- I'd have to mention the 15th at Bethpage Black -- talk about being elevated!
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There are too many skyline shots at Sand Hills to go through them, one-by-one. Some are off tees to skyline fairways, some are shots from tees or fairways to greens. In the treeless environment, how can you not have a few? ;) At Sand Hills, one side of a fairway can have an awesome skyline shot to a green with nothing but green contour and sky looking down at you, and the other side of the FW- not so vague, displaying some back ground for depth perception.
Wild Horses best skyline green is 16. I think the boys didn't get it right out at Bayside in Ogallala on the second or third shot into 15.
As for Whistling Straits #16, it is so-so. But, in the endless horizon theme, #13 at the straits is pretty good, I think, followed by #8.
But, Rees nailed it at Torrey Pines as noted above. I think Proctor and Axeland did a fair one at #11 Bayside as well. However, I think those two are a sub-category of skyline that mimicks the trendy fashion of the horizonless pool concept, with the endless horizon backdropped by water. Great stuff, nonetheless...
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Fellows:
Most of those photos are some gorgeous vistas behind greens but they aren't "skyline" greens. The only possible way I could see to make most of those holes skyline greens would be to get flat on your stomach on the fairway and even then I doubt most of those greens would be "skylines". Skyline greens are greens whose backdrops are all sky.
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AWWW, man !!!
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JimK
Are you in pain? If so, would you like me to call Dr. Katz?
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SPDB:
I think #13 Pipinng would be a great skyline green and obviously once was; unfortunately those enormous trees way behind the green down by the tennis courts are too big and you'd have to be right underneath the green extremely close to the green to make it work and being that close sort of makes it lose it's effectiveness.
Tom - #13 is almost certainly a skyline from the valley where approach shots are typically made. I guess you could make the argument that if you laid back before the gully, it might not be a skyline, but from the drainage it most certainly is.
The trees by the tennis court are at least 500 yards away across the 14th, then 15th, and the tennis courts that are on a direct line with the green. With a sand wedge, the only thing you can see is green and sky.
Ran? Help!
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Gotta love Shinnecock Hills #11...actually, there are probably quite a few greens at Shinnecock which fit the bill from certain angles (e.g. #9 and #10, no?).
Cheers,
Darren
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SPDB:
Perhaps you're right that those trees back there can't be seen when you're in front of #13 Piping Rock. I grew up on that golf course and God knows how many times I played it back then but to be honest with you I can't really remember whether it was all sky behind the green when down in front of it.
See those enormous trees way back there that are over 100 ft high? Well, I'm so old when I was growing up around that course they were only 2ft high. Those trees back there are on the other side of the last half of #18 btw.
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TEPaul is correct.
A skyline green is one where only the green is visible and nothing behind it.
When I last played # 5 at The Creek there was the fairway, the green complex and the sky.
That is what I define as a skyline green
Redanman,
There's a number of big trees behind # 2 green at Lehigh.
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redanman said;
"#2 at Lehigh CC is a really good one, but the super hasn't cut down the two trees that I told him to cut down as of yet. I am still waiting."
redanman:
I hope you're an extremely patient man. Did you bother to ask the green committee first or did you just tell JohnC on your own to go cut those trees behind #2 down?
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Pat - 5 at the creek is played along a slight (marginal) upslope, such that you can actually use the ground to approach the green. immediately behind it is the road down to the beach club and trees that run along the side of 6. Perhaps if the green was moved to the right it would have only the sound (or sky) in its backdrop, but currently it has trees.
Wanna do double or nothing on our Merion bet?
TE Paul,
the trees you see immediately behind 13 are small trees in between 18 and 14, and are really only visible from the high perspective from which the picture in my original post was shot. from the gully you are looking up at the green, and the trees to the far side of the tennis courts (with 18 and 14 in between) are not visible on a plane even or above the green surface.
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Fazio also built a pretty nice skyline green on 16 at Hartefeld. no dispute on that one (at least on the issue of whether its a skyline) ;D
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As noted earlier, the 6th at Pebble is a wonderful example of a skyline green as viewed from the fairway ...
http://www.pebblebeach.com/1a6a.html
The depth perception is the biggest challenge on these greens as they tend to be slightly uphill with no reference points. Bunkers seem to have a slightly bigger lip and face also causing pain to your depth perception ...
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Arcadia Bluffs has a great example on #3 a Par 5. From the picture it's hard to see but you play your shot second and third shots up hill and all you can see is the horizon and Lake Michigan with a 4 ft wooden flag sticking up as a target. It looks like there's no room whatsoever to land your shot when in actuality it's a fairly large green. Since the water is viewable and not just the sky, perhaps it's a lakeline green per TEPaul.
(http://www.arcadiabluffs.com/images/hole-3_pic.jpg)
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#2 at Lost Canyons - Shadow:
(http://www.lostcanyons.com/images/Courses/Shadow/sh_02_dk.jpg)
and less so, #2 at the SKy course:
(http://www.lostcanyons.com/images/Courses/Sky/sky-dk-2.jpg)
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Sean;
Agree with you on 16 at Hartefeld National. It's a superb skyline green.
And you probably thought I was a knee-jerk, Fazio basher! ;)
Also;
Although not in the US, one of the best skyline greens is on the par three 7th at Muirfield.
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I vote for No. 10 at Yale.
You cannot see the putting surface from the fairway. You just look up and see the sky and hope that your second shot lands on the green.
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Pete;
I just took you to task for your comments on the Golf DIgest ratings thread.
Still, anyone who loves and appreciates the 10th at Yale is immediately a compadre of mine!!! ;D
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Mike Cirba - Ignore my comments on the other thread. If you appreciate Yale as much as I do, then you are a gifted rater for Golfweek. I do wonder about some of the other raters, however.
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....in our internal design vocabulary,we commonly refer to any green complex where the green surface itself is the highest element of the complex as a'horizon line green',regardless of the near or far backdrop....#3 at pinehurst #2 is a good example.
a hole that has rear mounding would not qualify, regardless if the green had a pushed up surface or not.
we also refer to 'partial horizon line greens' on side hill sites.
....i agree that the true 'sky line greens' are too far and few between.......
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#2 at Lost Canyons - Shadow:
and less so, #2 at the SKy course:
Scott, I don't think either of those are skyline greens. In the first pic, the green is, for the most part, shelved into the side of the hill and therefore framed by it. It doesn't create the skyline (horizon line), but is, rather, a lower part of it.
The second pic is below the skyline, which are framed by the rumpled (dunes?) behind it.
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The upper green at Pacific Dunes 9th? It must be close to a skyline green, particularly if your tee shot is on in that hollow, although you might be able to just see a distant cliff on the coast?
I think the left hand green at the 9th at Pine Valley would be super as a skyline green, I'm sure that more shots would end up plummeting off the "cliff" if it were. Imagine the recovery shot from the 18th fairway?! If the trees were cleared all down the the left side of the 10th, perhaps it wouldn't look too weird? (Although, would the 9th greens be in danger from the duck hook off the 18th?)
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Pete Kilhern,
Isn't there a forest of trees behind the 10th at YALE ?
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Sean,
Compared to some of the ones with trees right behind the green others are suggesting.... ::)
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Scott - if you're making reference to the Piping Rock photo, I can assure you it is a skyline green, prom the perspective where approach shots are made (not the perspective of the photo). The key elements are there, a pushed up green that from the golfer's perspective creates the highest point on the horizon line. A not-so-great analogy: try to imagine the green as occupying the roof of the Wachovia Tower, and the city of W-S as the greensite.
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"I think the left hand green at the 9th at Pine Valley would be super as a skyline green, I'm sure that more shots would end up plummeting off the "cliff" if it were. Imagine the recovery shot from the 18th fairway?! If the trees were cleared all down the the left side of the 10th, perhaps it wouldn't look too weird? (Although, would the 9th greens be in danger from the duck hook off the 18th?)"
Paul;
I doubt the 9th green would be in much danger from a hook off the 18th tee but that alone is probably possible enough to think twice about removing all the trees behind #9 and along the left of #10. The trees are so much larger and higher than they once were and clearing all the trees off the left of #10 I'm certain would never be considered, nor should it, in my book.
But it's interesting you say imagine the recovery back to #9 from the 18th behind and below it. I think a club has a research responsibility if they're thinking of restoring something to find out why it was changed in the first place. In the case of the Maxwell alteration to the original left #9 and also part of the reason to build right #9 was for that very reason that too many balls were going over left #9 and down onto #18 behind and below it.
Maxwell, lengthened the front of left #9 and bunkered behind it to prevent that from happening as well as recontouring the green.
My point here is if the reasons for altering a green in the first place can actually accurately be determined then the club certainly should be wary of doing anything with restoration that would basically recreate that very same original situation or problem.
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Sean:
I haven't stood out on #13 at Piping in years but the trees back there aren't exactly small particularly the forest to the left of #18. But if you were there recently and could only see sky from down in front of the green you'd know better than I since again I haven't looked at that in years.
#16 Hartefeld is really a great skyline green and the added reason last time I was there (some time ago) is there're no trees up on that ridge, behind, left or right and again that creates a far more effective "skyline" green in my book.
The overall psychological effect of really good "skyline" greens is to remove from the player any depth or aim perspective or perception and make him really trust his swing and what he's doing and so no trees behind or to the sides of the green is important.
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Despite my agreement with Pete Kilhern about the merits of the 10th hole steeply-uphill approach at Yale, sadly it is not a skyline green, although I can understand how one is made to feel that way.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000445.jpg)
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Sean,
No, I was referring to the references to holes with trees behind them and calling them skyline greens. I haven't seen PR, so I don't know.
The spirit is there, but sometimes a far off frame of reference is more confusing than none at all.
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I just recently played Cochiti de puebleo in Cochiti Lakes. It had several attmpts at skyline greens but were off a few degrees. I wondered this a.m. if settling would've accounted for the apparent differential, or if the crew just missed'em.
One of the wildest ever which NLE's was the original 10th at BWR. It was seriously steep(especially at the green) uphill and was absolutely flat on top. Wild, too wild and I guess thats why it NLE.
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I thought I would try a couple of different ones.
(http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/9D/11/JDoggolf/1/2.jpg)
#2 From the Oddfellows course in Reykjavic
(http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/9D/11/JDoggolf/1/3.jpg)
#10 Keilir Golf Club, Hafnarfjardar, Iceland
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I believe that the 13th at Newport is an excellent skyline green, except when Eddie Ricci parks his car behind it.
I suggest that his car be towed, stolen, or raffled off for charity.
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Here may well be the ultimate skyline green -- whether it is technically within the United States is debatable:
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Transcript of Apollo 14:
On 6 February 1971, Alan Shepard, captain of NASA’s Apollo 14 Mission, hit two golf balls on the surface of the moon. The second reportedly stayed aloft for 30 seconds and landed in a distant crater. Following is the transcript of the communications among Shepard; Edgar D. Mitchell, the lunar module pilot; and Houston Control:
Shepard: Houston, while you’re looking that up, you might recognize what I have in my hand as the handle for the contingency sample return; it just so happens to have a genuine 6-iron on the bottom of it. In my left hand, I have a little white pellet that’s familiar to millions of Americans. I’ll drop it down. Unfortunately, the suit is so stiff, I can’t do this with two hands, but I’m going to try a little sand-trap shot here.
Houston Control: He topped
and buried it on the first swing. I assume that the 6-iron was snuck on board.
Mitchell: You got more dirt than ball that time.
Shepard: Got more dirt than ball. Here we go again.
Houston Control: That looked like a slice to me, Al.
Shepard: Here we go. Straight as a die; one more. (significant pause) Miles and miles and miles.
Houston Control: Very good, Al.