Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: THuckaby2 on April 03, 2003, 01:01:29 PM
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All this ranking talk once again got me to thinking about what I call the Holy Grails of Golf: those courses that if an opportunity is offered most golfers would drop everything and make happen right then and there. As we quibble about the relative merits of the ranked courses, it just seems right to me to ask about this. Of these courses, which courses are Holy Grails?
Sticking just to the US, for a long time the answer would be crystal clear to me: a triumvirate of Pine Valley, Cypress Point and Augusta National. Say what you will about any of these, but who among us wouldn't drop everything to play them if the chance was given? redanman used to have a great quote attached to his posts about how he wouldn't get on his knees to play Augusta, but hey, he's a well-travelled man of firm scruples and I admire him for this. Regarding this stand, he's also in the tiniest minority this side of the US chapter of the Saddam Hussein Fan Club. ;)
Thus when people criticize Augusta, it always makes me chuckle. Oh sure, it has been bastardized to all hell in the name of keeping Masters scores down - Daniel Wexler's article in the latest Links is great and right on re this subject. But to say the course is anything but great even still... well... it might have been greater if they left it alone, but ok, let he to whom this is most important be the first to turn down an invitation there.
For my money there are a few others: Sand Hills, Shinnecock, NGLA, Merion, Chicago GC... and maybe there are even more beyond that.
The point is, courses like this are SO great, and the vast majority of golfers on this planet would SO enjoy playing any of them, that to denigrate any of them seems really silly to me.
Thoughts?
TH
ps - note I don't put places like Bandon, Pinehurst, Pebble in this category because if money can get one on, it's not a Holy Grail. These certainly are GREAT perhaps on a par with the Grail courses... but qualification for this status necessarily includes difficulty in accessing on top of greatness.
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Tom,
In addition to those you listed I would add Prairie Dunes.
Hell ya I'd play Augusta, but it would be about 5th on the list though.
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I might put Friar's Head, Seminole, Winged Foot, and Oakmont in there.
Prairie Dunes and SFGC maybe...
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Tom,
IMO your list is too long. I agree with your definition. I somehow get an invitation tomorrow. It makes no difference that I need to pay last second airfare. It makes no difference that I need to pay last second hotel rates. It makes no difference that I need to cancil 3 critical meetings. It makes no difference that I need to move my anniversary dinner back a night. I am on that plane and playing golf.
The list is Cypress - Augusta - Pine Valley.
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I forgot Crystal Downs as a another maybe....
David,
You have a point, there is a "drop everything and go" dividing line amongst these, but pure architecture, experience/ambience, and dare I say it, access, are big parts of the equation, too.
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Scott,
Access is absolutely part of it. My short list of three has some of its mythical qualities due to access. That written, I would love to play San Francisco GC and Muirfield Village. Neither course hosts raters. I hope to one day get a chance but I would not alter my life tomorrow over an invitation.
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National, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Friar's Head, Shinnecock, Featherie Banks and The Old Course with an invite to R&A Clubhouse afterward.
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Here's a thought from my end, because Pebble is so damned expensive, I might put in on the list anyways, even though I've played it once and it's open to the public. If I got a free pass to play again...it might be cause for a special trip.
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Scott,
Obviously this is an opinion but to me your answer to pebble disqualifies it. If it takes a free pass to get you to do it, it is not a Holy Grail. I have played Cypress and I would still rearrainge my entire life and ignore all costs for another shot at it.
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CYPRESS POINT
PINE VALLEY
NGLA
SAND HILLS
TIE--SFCC/SEMINOLE
LAST SELECTION...
BEL AIR (ALTHOUGH I'D MUCH PREFER THE ORIGINAL, UNALTERED VERSION)
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Dave:
I'm with you, well said. The three definite "I'm on the plane tomorrow" courses are the three we each named, Augusta-Pine Valley-Cypress. That's why I say the others "might" achieve this status... and all the others mentioned by me and other people might as well... but these others would depend on how important golf is to you, and how free you are to do these things financially and otherwise.
So I guess I'm re-defining my own definition (to use a horrid phrase): the only "unquestioned grails" might just be these three.
But then I start to think about Sand Hills, and well... it sure as hell does qualify for me also.... but others might disagree given its location....
I do love this topic in any case. Thanks one and all for the thoughts. I'm outta here for now, will have more to add tomorrow morning for sure.
TH
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Is it a one-some or two-some ?
Some places and experiences would be better shared ... that being said, it would be hard to argue with many of the suggestions ... PV, ANGC, Cypress, NGLA, Friars, WF, Shinney ...
Since half the fun of this trip would be able to share it with friends who didn't go with you (if any), the ANGC would have to be at the top of my list. Almost all of my friends don't have the knowlege of the golden age of golf, so they wouldn't understand the Holy Grail concept of PV, NGLA, Shinney ... most of them would have heard about Cypress and of course ANGC ...
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Tom Paul where are you? No one's mentioned Fernandina Beach yet.
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"but qualification for this status necessarily includes difficulty in accessing on top of greatness."
Maybe difficulty of access has something to do with some perception of 'holy grail' but I don't think difficulty of access has a thing to do with architecture and whether it's quality or not.
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"Tom Paul where are you? No one's mentioned Fernandina Beach yet."
Neal:
It's shocking isn't it that Fernandina Beach Municipal hasn't been mentioned a number of times and this thread is already 13 posts old. The truth is there're very few who truly have enough architectural sophistication to see the extraordinary nuance of Fernandina Beach Muni. I'll be stopping in to play it and analyze its greatness again, though, in a couple of weeks.
Last year I heard they were thinking of removing that palmetto bush behind #12 and if I find they've done that there's going to be hell to pay.
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the big three augusta, cypress and pine valley plus NGLA
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Cypress Point, TCC, Pine Valley, Fishers Island
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I have ready access to Yeamans Hall, but I'm not sure how tough it is to get on there for the rest of the world. The place is awesome. Anyone? Anyone?
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redanman:
Your experience, counsel and wisdom is much appreciated. You have a damn good take on this and I respect it completely.
TEP:
Hell yes, this has NOTHING to do with "architecture" whatsoever. That's a part of it - each of these places would make for a great study - but their "grail" status in no way conveys any greatness of architecture in and of itself, nor does difficulty of access. That's not the issue here.
But then again, that ought not to surprise you - I've only said about 30 times now on this site that man does not live by architecture alone.... ;)
TH
ps - the more I think about this the more NGLA qualifies also... without a doubt... for me anyway. My bad not to make this clearer before.
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C'mon, lets be honest, this Holy Grail baloney has everything to do with ACCESS! Noone would jump on a plane tomorrow to play Ballybunion or Royal County Down!
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Des:
Well obviously difficulty of access has something to do with it - as you see, I don't count Pebble/Pinehurst/Bandon because all that requires is money. And yes, most of the great clubs of Scotland don't fall in this category due to their FANTASTIC, welcoming guest policies. That being said, I'd put St. Andrews Old as one of the world's Holy Grails most definitely and access there just takes patience... So access isn't the ONLY issue here, but in any case I was just trying to limit this to the USA for now.
All this being said, there are plenty of places that are equally difficult to access as these mentioned that none of us would get on a plane tomorrow to play....
So taking this into account, do you have any other thoughts or others to add?
TH
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Er, so all it boils down to, is a world great course that is very exclusive/private! So what do we learn from this?
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Des:
It doesn't have to be private: note that I'd innclude The Old Course if this was to extend world-wide, just because TOC is the home of golf and MUST be seen by any golfer some time in his life. So TOC gets "grail" status for an entirely different reason, but a grail it is nonetheless.
And you don't have to "learn" anything from this, that's obviously not the point. I just find it fun to discuss, and have enjoyed the take of others so far on this thread. If it's of no value to you, then no harm done.
TH
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You'd jump on a plane tomorrow to play TOC?
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Des:
Please note how I said TOC was a grail for a different reason. "Jumping on the plane tomorrow" is not the ONLY qualification for this status. It is one of them, a great definer, but obviously there are realities of life and given TOC will always be there and seemingly always be available (with patience and persistence) there is not the NECESSITY to jump on the plane tomorrow to play it. Playing there whenever one can, as many times as one can, but at the very least once in one's lifetime, would seem to me to be mandatory....
And thus although no, it makes no sense to say one would jump on a plane tomorrow to play TOC, it remains a Grail nevertheless.
By the way, this is supposed to be just fun golf talk - I am not trying to make any huge life-changing point by all of this. My apologies if this whole topic somehow offends you....
TH
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Huckster: For me it used to be Augusta hands down. but through my further study of arcitecture (this forum included), my view has changed a little.
Hell ya I'd play Augusta, but I would drop all plans and get to a Delta ticket booth to play:
Cypress
Seminole
Pine Valley
Augusta
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Tom.
I think Des has your tits in the wringer. :)
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Good stuff, Rob - and I admire that you are into this whole architecture thing enough to have the bastardized Augusta removed from your list or at least lowered. Me, it's still the home of the Masters and I still would drop everything to play where so much history has occurred. In a perfect world they'd magically restore the course to 1933 or so conditions, but if the invite came I'd be a beggar who wasn't choosing.
TH
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Perhaps he does, Bob. Oh well. Hey, there's no rationalizing or quantifying things like this, which are so inherently personal and emotional...
Love the line in any case! ;D
TH
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So what do ANGC, Cypress Point and Pine Valley have over the other great courses in the world, that aren't the Home of Golf, and aren't exclusive?
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You have my tits too much in a wringer to figure out that triple negative, Des.
I guess what you're asking is what's so great about these three to give them grail status over others that might get such due for some other reason?
1. They each have a "mystique" that goes beyond access... due to word of mouth, magazine rankings, availability of many pictures, books being written on them, and in the case of Augusta, a rich tournament history that surpasses nearly every other course in the land...
2. By all accounts from anyone playing them, they are a joy to play and to be at - the ambiance inside each is reputed to be wonderful. Snapper soup at PVGC, low-key cabins and welcoming treatment at Augusta, beauty beyond compare beyond the welcoming feeling at Cypress....
3. Sure, each would make for some fantastic stories to tell the friends back home.
So I'm sure you're not going to learn anything from this... and depending on one's status in life, none of this might have any meaning...
For most golfers though, all of these things do have meaning, in a big way.
I've been to one of them and the memories from there are among the most cherished I have.
This is all very emotional and personal though, and I don't expect it to matter to everyone. Again, if it doesn't matter to you, that is very fine.
TH
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Poor Tom,
First they went after your balls and now your tits. ;D
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Craig - love it! Damn, I am left a shredded wreck of my former self. Now Conley's after me as the sole supporter of the GD system.... luckily he hasn't asked for another body part!
TH
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Point 1: The mystique doesn't go beyond access/exclusivity. The mystique is because of the limited access. If anyone could play these courses, how much mystique would they have? Where's the mystery?
Point 3: = Access and bragging rights
Point 2 : All about exclusivity and access. Even the tournament factors. Is there a more exclusive tournament than Augusta?
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Des.
I'll come to the rescue of my good friend, the Huckster.
Excitement. When you play PV, CP, ANGC there is a palpable sense of excitement that may not be there elsewhere. It has nothing to do with access. I think I have played a goodly number of the fairest, both here and around the world. Were I allowed only three golf courses to play before being carted off this mortal coil I might well choose the three mentioned above. However, I am determined to last another eighteen months and play Mike Strantz's MPCC's Shore Course, after only two months and four holes shaped it looks fantastic.
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I hear the locker room alone is reason enough to put Seminole on my list.
Are we assuming that we will actually play well on these courses? Hell, I'd be so jacked-up/nervous, I'd be lucky to make contact. Probably how a Masters rookie feels when he is on the 1st tee Thursday.
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Such is your opinion and I respect it, Des. I disagree completely with how you assess this, but I'm also tired of arguing about something that's supposed to be fun.
So ok, say I agree with all of it.
There are still plenty of other clubs that have the exclusivity that you seem to believe is the sole reason for what I'm calling grail status, but that don't achieve such. What sets these three (and perhaps the others we've mentioned) apart is the degree to which they hold these factors. There are far more difficult clubs to access than these three.
Disagree?
TH
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Whew - many thanks, Bob. Des did have me on the ropes and the referee was moving in to stop the fight....
TH
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There are a number of courses that are every bit as EXCITING as those three. But don't have exclusivity and the inherent "mystique".
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Now you're getting it, Des. To be a grail you have to have it all. Exclusivity is a big part of it, just not the ONLY qualification.
TH
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I have seven courses that I would drop everything right now and head to the airport:
Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Sand Hills
National Golf Links
Shinnecock Hills
Augusta National
Friar's Head
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What, Jimmy, a simple cool answer without complaints about the question? How novel! How unique! I am shocked!
TH
ps - sorry, none of this is directed at you, it's just that Des does have me worn out. ;) From all accounts Friar's Head is going to achieve this status, if it hasn't already.
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You guys have a more understanding warden than I. My criteria has to include that SHE will want to move our anniversary dinner to the new locale and go with me.
Augusta
Cypress
Seminole
Merion
Shinnecock
Left to my own devices (no chance), I would add Pine Valley.
The list of invites that I've had to decline in the past 5 years for business or personal reasons due to travel time would make me cry and make you guys question my credibility on this site.
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GREAT list, Chip.
And yes, we all have our own realities on this. My own personal SHE, God love her, just began the fight about Sand Hills with "you're going to NEBRASKA to play golf?" After several hours of "discussion", she did allow such. But you wanna talk about honey-do's in return.....
In any case the reality is SHE must be persuaded, and obeyed. VERY good qualification.
So for guys like us, one of the defining issues is more than just "will you jump on the plane tomorrow" - it's "are you willing to spend ALL your marital capital."
And that narrows down the list very quickly, doesn't it? ;)
TH
ps - Wigler doesn't count on this because not only is his wife wonderful, beautiful, cool and understanding, she actually plays the game pretty damn well. So Dave's issue is more persuading her why she can't come along if that's the case!
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Des,
I have stated somewhere on this board that I would (should) drop everything, hop on a plane, fly to EDI and play the Old Course.
Of course, I stated that the reason I would do this is to use all my frequent flyer miles on United before they go out of business. ;)
I would rather title the challenge as "things to do before I die" ...
Hole in one - check (although I didn't see it go in the hole ... major bummer).
Cypress Point - check
Scotland golf - open item
etc.
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Well said, Mike. "Things to do re golf if at all possible before one dies" might be a better way to state all this.
And given that the vast majority of golfers have about as much chance of, and control over, getting to these places as making an ace, it's very valid to put that in there also.
Of course adding that to the great triumvirate leaves me still with but one check mark, so screw you, thanks for the reminder! ;D
TH
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TH and chip,
I count my lucky stars..when an invite came down for CPC she was the one who said 'you can't miss that". She also was quite gracious in Scotland last trip in which I played 26 rounds... as long as she got a Tennants 80 shilling and a nice dinner.
so... Pine Valley, CPC, Shinney, ANGC nothing new here.
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whitey, count your wife among the good ones if you don't already.
Mine also treated CPC the same way. Even she had heard of that and even seen it, and it is local.
Sand Hills on the other hand.... ;)
TH
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Who among us has not had their significant other/better half say "Your going to Nebraska to play golf!!!!"
Florida, Hawaii, Monterey, totally different answers & expectations.
The interesting thing about this excersize is how similar the lists are. There's almost no outliers. Would you drop anything to go to Valhalla or Sahalee (they've had majors!). What about a Carmago, Redtail or Peachtree. Fine architectural courses, but hardly the excitment generator of an PV or Merion.
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JF - great points, all of them. Not to pick on the great state of Nebraska, but it's never going to be known as a great vacation spot nationwide! It's funny to think though how each who has made the pilgrimage likely got the same spousal reaction.
Also very interesting how the lists are similar... but then again, this necessarily has to be a short list... there was only ONE true Grail, after all. ;D
TH
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I'm still thinking about my list, but I did postpone my brother's 40th birthday suprise (Crystal Downs and Kingsley Club) when I received an invite to Sand Hills.
There is no course I would travel to that would interfere with what is going on with my children, but once I have them covered the list is:
Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Myopia
Seminole
and one international, Rye.
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Ed:
I know we got sidetracked a bit in my discussion with Des, but the idea was to keep this to the US, just so that it had some sense of reality. Or do you seriously mean that if you got an invite to Rye you'd drop everything and go immediately, the time and expense be damned? Please clarify if so.
You also would not include Augusta or Cypress?
Re Sand Hills, well said. Believe me I had to rearrange a lot to go there myself and I am STILL paying for it. But it was so worth it it's not even worth thinking about.
Interesting also, my basic assumption is that the kids come first. Remember I missed the "practice round" at Neal's course before Barona last year so I could watch my son sing in a school pageant... Obviously no golf comes before stuff like that.
I don't mean to pick on you - how people feel about this stuff is really interesting to me. So please do clarify, if you care to.
TH
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Tom,
You were dead on that access is just a part of it. Double Eagle and TGC are two of the most exclusive courses in the country. They are also phenomenal golf courses (Regardless of what some silly magazine thinks ;) ). That written, I would not drop my life to play a round at either of them. I agree with you completely about international courses as well. Ironically, when I though international, the two that immediately came to my mind were Valderrama and Royal Melbourne. After some thought, I eliminated Valderama. I wish I could say courses in England, Scotland, and Ireland but it would be disingenuous. I have turned down golf trips to all three places in the past for various reasons.
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I haven't been to many of the courses I think of as Holy Grails, except for SH and Crystal Downs, that require an entree or invite. I have been to a few public ones that I considered among the seminal works to be seen and experienced. But, access to the greatest private ones is generally just a hope and a prayer thing that may or may not happen. Among those remaining for me, I'd consider Royal Melbourne, Pine Valley, Cypress, NGLA, and Shinny, perhap I am leaving one or two out if I thought about it. But, not ANGC.
Of those that are on my holy grail list not because of access, but because they are difficult to get to by virtue of expense and difficulty of geography, it comes down to an opportuity to go to Ireland and/or Scotland on a tour of courses that have the real spirit with true golf buddies and those who are of kindred souls. In that case, the company of golfer friends would be and integral part of the crusade to find the holy grail.
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I learned my "holy grail" lesson in my last job when I told my supervisor "I just got an invite to play____ tomorrow".
When I returned to work the day after he asked me what happened and where I was and why I was absent. I of course said "I told you I got invited to ____, what did you think I wasn't going?"
Non golfers just do not understand the language:
I got invited to ____ = I am going.
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I always thought that the holy grail was concidered Augusta, Pine Valley, Cypress Point and Seminole, and that it had more to do with access.
Once you have played them, would you still drop everything to go there again, or would you concentrate on the next four?
I have played three and will likely pass on two offers to play again. A'm I normal or nuts? Would you, or would you go no matter what?
Ian
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Casa de Campo
Can anyone who has visited confirm or deny that it is a tremendous golf course?
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Doesn't the answer to this question depend at least somewhat on what kind of access you have now? Since I've seen a fair amount of Pete Dye's courses, dropping everything to see his "best" doesn't seem that exciting. Otherwise, I have no access, so not only would I drop everything to play the oft-mentioned Shinney, NGLA, Merion, PV, Cypress PT, Chicago, Crystal Downs, etc., but also for courses with slightly less "mystique" like SFGC, Prairie Dunes, Fenway, and a host of others. When you haven't seen much, you're more willing. Christ, with the weather crummy in Chicago, I'm thinking of doing a road trip tomorrow to French Lick.
Jeff Goldman
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Ian,
I think you make a great point that might almost qualify as a distinction between a "holy grail" and a "notch in the belt", that being maintenance of desire to play a course after already playing it once. I have only played one of my personal holy grail courses, and I can tell you that I certainly would drop everything to return again.
Brad Swanson
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Brad, may be I should add to what I said. I would drop everything every time if I had the resources to do it. Having limits on what I can do and see affects my choices. With so much greatness to see, would you return to Pine Valley or jump at the chance to play Shinnecock (as an example). Would you go to Ierland to play Ballybunion, Portrucsh and Royal County Down, or would you go to Cypress Point and Seminole in two seperate trips. These are my choices, and in each case I would choose the new course because I never know when I will not be able to travel. I would rather try see as much as possible, while understanding that I will not get every subtlety without returning a few times. That's life, you can't have it all so you make a choice.
For me these are not notches in the belt, but learning experieces, I spend a lot of time photographing each shot and hitting extra shots when I can. Each course provides me with an education on design that I hope to someday incorporate into something I'm building.
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Dick, you may just be the reincarnation of the King Arthur's Knight, Percival. Loyal to the search and the honor of the Knights of the Round Table. I trust Holy Grails are wherever we appreciate being there and good company is always a welcome catalyst. To Lawsonia and victory!!! To Ireland and ancestral everlife! To Scotland and freedom! To home and fair maiden!
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mdugger:
Teeth of the Dog is excellent and one of Dye's very very best. Actually, given the seaside location, it may be THE best.
If TOTD was located in the US of A, it would be Top 20 easy - it's better than the Ocean Course IMO and more strikling than TPC.
The other 2 courses at Casa de Campo are also excellent.
But worth creating marital/employment strife? That's a stretch.
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1) ANGL- because I am a MacKenziemaniac, and despite all the recent changes, it is exponentially more impressive in person than on T.V. Unlike Redanman, I would get on my knees and grovel a bit for a chance to play it.
2) Pine Valley- because according to several people whose opinions I value, it is in a class by itself.
3) CPC- if there is a better club course in nearly every respect anywhere, I am unaware of it.
4) NGLA, Shinney - "natural", exposed, historical; golf as it was meant to be.
5) Seminole- purely because of its reputation and history; plus, there must be one course in Florida that can really knock my socks off.
Re: Casa de Campo-Teeth of the Dog, a great course, but not one that I would drop everything to go play. It and Kiawah Ocean are pretty dramatic, and extremely difficult when the wind howls, but I personally like Dye's Long Cove nearly as well. The Golf Club in Ohio is also a great course, but like Harbour Town, for me, it did not live up to its ranking.
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...TEpaul
from your earlier post,if fernandina bch is on your holy grail list in a couple of weeks and a third or fourth is needed, and since none of our group has played it, maybe we could get together?......
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Ian,
You are nuts :). I have played CPC. If someone calls this afternoon and says they have an opening in a foursome tomorrow, They won't be able to finish the sentence before I am on NWA.com looking for flights. That is why it is a grail. It has nothing to do with the "Notch in a belt."
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So, I have this about Seminole: I played there last month and was invited to play the next day (at the last minute), but did not cancel plans with friends at Lost Tree (a vastly inferior course) the next day. What this says to me is that Seminole, although spectactular, is not Cypress Point or Shinne . . , or the National, or Brookline all of which would get me on plane in the morning. The "bloody hands" test may be the right one, and only a few pass. I say: Shinne, the National, Cypress Point, and Crystal Downs.
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Tom,
One glaring omission from my grail list: MERION!!
And yes, I would "drop everything", as explained earlier, to go to Rye. Its not much different than flying to the east coast for some of the others, its just a longer flight. In my conversations with Herb Wind about Rye and knowing the President's Putter is held there, and Bernard Darwin played there is enough for me. The ideal would be able to play and attend the President's Putter. Obviously this wouldn't be the only golf I would play if I traveled that far, but I would just as readily fly to England as NJ.
Cypress was the one course I wanted to play before I died, so if I hadn't been there before it would still be on my list, and I will never turn down an invite (except like last summer), but you only live once, and there are a lot of amazing courses to see.
Augusta doesn't make my grail list, although I wouldn't turn down an invite, but I wouldn't drop everything like I would for Merion, Pine Valley, et al.
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David W and JMD,
I think you understand what I was trying to convey here. For me a grail is not all about seeing the course for the first time, but actually playing it, and loving it so much that you would sacrifice about anything (including a round at a great, but lesser course) to get back and play again. Now if I only had the problem ofhaving to turn down Augusta because I was invited to play at one of my "holy grails' on the same day (crap right now, I'd take a round of golf on a course that has more live grass than dead, and that's a challenge here in Denver).
Brad Swanson
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David, sometimes when you pass up an opportunity, you make an opportunity for someone who deserves it more than you.
And my kids agree with you, I am nuts ;D
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Tom,
I'm interested in why you think your Top 5 or any Top 5 are Great. I want you to describe in exact detail why each paticular course is great, and worthy being a Holy Grail. What makes the courses worth jumping on a plane and going to play at all costs?
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Tommy,
I would be curious to know yours? With all your reading and travelling, your list treaks my curiosity.
In hindsight should the list not be one, the Old Course at St. Andrews as the only course worthy of the name Holy Grail?
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Tommy,
I think you missed Tom's point (Although Tom can clearly defend himself, so I'll answer for me). I cannot describe any feature of two of my three - Augusta and Pine Valley. I have never played there and know pictures can be deceiving. It is a mental state that you derive from the mere thought of being able to play on one of these courses. Let me go one further, Shadow Creek was on the list. I desperately wanted to play it ever since it was built. As we have debated many times, I am a Fazio fan and this was his Opus. The entire experience leading up to the round was surreal. My anticipation when entering the gates was palpable. I had goosebumps. The course, while outstanding, did not remain in the grail category afterwards because it is probably a top 20 course in the US but it is not "Grail like." The only other time I have had that feeling, related to golf, was pulling into CPC. The sensation was identical. CPC is paradise.
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Corey M:
I just have to ask this -- after you told your supervisor about the special golf invite this did you still have the job afterwards? Thanks for sharing ... I've been in that same type of situation and for non-golfers it's very hard to conceptualize the NEED.
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Brad: I understand the standard, and think it's the right one. My point simply was that Seminole did not meet that standard (for me). I know it did for Hogan, who would play it 30 times the month before the Masters. His game must have let him appreciate parts of the course that mine did not reach.
The others on my list that I have played, the National and Shinne, meet that standard for me. I'd leave almost anywhere on a moment's notice for a round there. The others -- Crystal Downs and Cypress -- I know through pictures and writing, but I am confident that they would matter to me in similar fashion.
In all of these courses something about the interaction between the game and its surroundings is perfect. That, at the end, is what makes something a holy grail -- isn't it?
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Tommy:
Dave Wigler has me covered - this isn't nearly as much about "greatness" as it is about a "feeling" one would get playing the place, the excitement derived from such, as Bob Huntley said. And although I dug Shadow Creek way more than most people, Dave also nails that in his assessment also.
This whole thing is very difficult to quantify, and many thanks to Dave W. for trying. He and I seem to look at this exactly the same. Others have different takes, and it's all good by me... Talk about subjective - trying to say what makes a course a "grail" for any person encompasses what he loves about golf, his status in life, what he's willing to give up for golf... taking this WAY beyond just "what makes a course great." JMD states it very well for me in his line about how it all comes together in perfection. That's as best as anyone can sum this up, at least how I look at it.
One more question for Ed Getka: I share all these thoughts about love for Rye, hey the President's Putter intrigues me also and I've read just about all the Darwin there is to read... But I still wouldn't call Rye a grail. It's not that difficult to access, and at least for me doesn't have the "must see in one's lifetime" quality (as TOC does) to "overcome" this and make it a grail. I feel like if I wrote the the proper people, I could get on... and it's not that far off the beaten path, so I may well get there some day without trying too hard. Thus no grail status for Rye for me... If someone called me today and said I could play tomorrow, I'd ask if I could postpone till later when I'm there anyway! One thing going against this though is Shivas' love for the course... for a long time he called it his favorite in all the word. That does make me want to see it more than most other places... so maybe this is a grail after all?
This illustrates in any case why and how people look at this differently... and Ed's definitive, non-wishy-washy take is very valid, likely making more sense than mine.
TH
ps to Tommy - some day in person I'd love to discuss exactly what I find great about the courses I hold most dear, I know that's what you want, you've asked me for this one way or the other many times. I'd bet anything you and I are very close in how we treat this, although I'm sure you doubt that now. In any case,I've had enough already of being pinned down on here and trying to defend myself! So bear with me if I tread lightly for awhile.
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Tom,
Most of my grails have some personal connection, in addition to the greatness of the course. Everyone I've talked to regarding Rye has had a twinkle in their eye when talking about the experience. I don't know first hand about access issues, but I've never heard of it being a write a letter type club.
TOC is not a grail, it is a mecca, it is accessible to all and is a journey you make in your golfing life. I hold it in high enough esteem, that when I do get over there I will plan on playing on Monday, so I can spend ALL day on Sunday walking the holes to get some sense of the course before I actually play it.
Dornoch is another mecca course for me purely from what Herb Wind wrote about it years ago, and everything I've learned subsequently from you guys just confirms that in my mind.
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Ed: Mecca is a much better way to put it re TOC, I'm just shying away from mentioning anything having to do with Islam these days. But yes, that is a pilgrimage all golfers need to make. Can't see as I'd spend a day walking it and not playing unless I was over there for a LONG time - I'd play Kingsbarns or Crail or any of several others nearby before I'd just walk TOC - but I get ya re the importance. If I had the time available I'd spend a day walking it also - it is that cool and that "important."
Re Rye, gotcha. Personal connections do add to this most definitely - that's why I mentioned shivas! I still do think one can get on with a letter and with the proper help... in any case it's not like Augusta, Cypress or Pine Valley in this respect, is it? The guy who sets up my UK tours said he could get us on no problem... not that this makes it any less great - hell, I too do want to see it - it just slightly lessens the "must go NOW if invited" quality.
In any case this is great stuff, I love to talk about it, thanks for the banter!
TH
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Tom,
You just single-handedly demoted Rye from grail to mecca since a tour guy could set it up no problem. Thanks for bursting my bubble ;). I hope you are not serious about the mecca/Islam thing.
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I was very serious about the Mecca/Islam thing. The way the world is these days, any mention of it does seem to be misconstrued.
That's the last comment of a political nature you will ever hear from me on here. I come here to talk golf. That's my point.
Re Rye, it can be done... just call Bill Hogan at Wide World of Golf, in Carmel, CA!
TH
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Those last few posts on Rye just reconfirm that this is all about access!
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Des, you are on heck of a terrier.
Go back about 75 posts. Access is a large part of this, confirmed. Check. Right. Yes. True. Absolutely. You betcha. Damn right.
It's just not ALL of what makes this....
TH
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Tom,
I have no political point to make or axe to grind. I am simply using a term that bests describes what I'm trying to say.
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Ed:
I absolutely believe that from you - I think I know you well enough to know that.
I just avoid any terms having anything to do with what's going on in the middle east these days, at least on here. This is a respite from such things.
No biggie, you just asked if I was serious. I am.
TH
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I challenge anyone to name a single course that has easy access (not including the TOC) that you would drop everything to play tomorrow!
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Well Des, you just excepted out the best example. How fair is that?
So ok, it's quite possible none such exist. It's also quite possible that many people have several, which are very personal to them, and which depend on other circumstances... IE I'd drop everything right now to play the rankest muni with my Dad if he could make it up here. Money would be no object, nor would any other conflicts.
The point is this is all very emotional and each golfer will have a different way of looking at it.
I still don't get what your axe to grind here is, but hey, you too have you're way of looking at golf, I'm sure, so be healthy, happy and enjoy the game.
TH