Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on September 20, 1999, 08:00:00 PM
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Bruce Hepner mentions Styles and Van Kleek's Proud Neck course elsewhere in this Discussion Group. Brad Klein is down as being a definite fan of their work, too.I have only played Taconic. Is that generally considered their best work? Where else should I head to (other than Prouds Neck)?
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Ran: Can't answer your question about Stiles good work but I thought I might add that he did work to my course Gulph Mills in 1940-1. As far as I can tell it was the only work he did in Penna. and his contribution was to add a few tees and mounds but unfortunately also to remove some of Ross's bunkers including all the short cross bunkering (we call them top-shot bunkers). With an excellent new master plan by Gil Hanse we may restore some of them. What interested me most about Stiles' contribution to Gulph Mills is he left us with what must be considered a real comprehensive master plan for that era and it gives me some understanding of the thinking of an architect of that time. Most of his recommendations were not done and I find his explanations and recommendations to be less than inspiring. In his defense he may have been reacting to some real knee-jerk opinions of members to original features etc. It is curious how we might have come to hire him in the first place but the most likely explanation would seem to be that many of our members spent their summers in Maine, particularly Prout's Neck!
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I was slumming around in the back of the GCA.com archives and I came across this thread about Stiles and Van Kleek from 1999 (back when there were only a handful of posters and TE Paul was a mere "Mortal" with only a couple thousand posts rather than the "God" he is today... :o ;D) . I don't know that much about Stiles and Van Kleek but I sure liked Taconic. Any thoughts?
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I've heard great things about Rutland in Vermont, sort of a mini-Taconic.
Van Kleek is responsible for virtually every NYC muni, all of which he revamped or created during the Depression.
They built a course in NJ on a barrier island called Brigantine CC that I have fond memories of many vacation rounds on as a kid.
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Other than Taconic, the only other course that comes to mind is LaTourette GC in Staten Island, NY (Van Kleek only). There are some wonderful greens on the course and the design is probably the best of the NYC municipal courses. With a lot of money and TLC the course could be a gem.
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I recently played a Stiles course in Lakeland?, Florida named Lekarica. A bit rough around the edges and it will probably never be considered great but it was fun, had lots of good challenges, including at the greens, offered some excellent terrain, all this for 30 bucks.
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Jim K
That's good to know. I have driven through the Lekarica complex a few times and left uninspired. It always looked really poorly kept, and I couldn't see much of interest from the street view.
It was recently on the auction block, forced or not-I don't know. Did it change hands? Are there any promises for its future?
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An excellent course from these guys is Thorny Lea in Brockton, Mass. Interesting to note that some of the very best amateur golfers in Massachusetts have been produced out of this club. Makes me wonder, does good GCA breed good golfers?
It's layout and history can be viewed at:
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/golf/view_course.asp?GRP=7&NS=PUBLIC&APP=32
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/public/public.asp?grp=7&NS=PUBLIC
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The front side of the Waconah Country Club is a 1930 effort aand very well done. The back designed by Stiles and Van Kleek but built in the 50's ia not comparable.
Rutland is a very good course and although I played it 25 years ago I think there is some access.
Concord CC in New Hampshire has some wonderful holes but is limited severly by lack of land and suffering from seven generations of tree planting.
I saw a number of the holes at Prout's Neck and was impressed with what I saw. They too could use some pruning but the course is pretty pure.
Taconic is in a very elite class of courses in New England. There are a couple of weaknesses (opening and a closing reachable par-fives) but the course overall is one of New Englands premier designs. The flow of the course is about as good as it gets. Holes like the short # 3 are postcards, yet every hole has teeth.
I rank Taconic # 3 in New England after Salem and Wannamoisett on my own chart. If there is comparable Stiles and Van Kleek to be seen, I am open for a foray.
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Sarge,
I had the same thoughts as you when I drove in. You were seeing the second (par 4) and third (par 3), holes from the road. Having the third tee right on the driving range, with its green flanked by the clubhouse and parking lot, doesn't make it look too inviting, but the course really grew on me. It does start slow but builds as it goes along. I'd drive 50 miles to play it, especially if I wanted some piece and quiet on the course.
I'm from CT. and was spending a couple months vacation in Orlando and Sarasota so I no nothing about the situation there, sorry.
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Jim
I wondered if the par 3 was a practice hole, I never could figure the layout.
I've been meaning to stop off to play there, so now I'm a little more motivated. Thanks.
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By the way, Isn't that a hell of a house right where you turn in off the main road. I would love to see the inside.
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I saw this article on Wildwood CC (New Jersey) the other day. Not sure if it is their best, but I remember it being a fun nice course with a look similar to Atlantic City CC being in the marsh area "off-shore"
http://www.philgolfmag.com/PGM/pgm/2005/April_05/page22.html
Has anyone been there recently?
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Last year I played a little mountain (big hills in Western MA) course called Bass Ridge which was at most 5000 yards, on a tiny acreage and tons of fun. I had to know who was responisible. At least 9 were credited to Stiles, later in the year I played Wahcona for the first time. As a New Englander (honorary) I am making it my GCA duty this year to investigate as many Stiles courses as I can manage, and I will even take photos and post them. GCA company welcome, of course if anyone else curious - email me if so..
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The course is called Prouts Neck, no apostrophe.
Please remember that you did not see the following pictures.
(http://www.summersoccer.com/golf/images/proutsneck/proutsneck2.jpg)
(http://www.summersoccer.com/golf/images/proutsneck/proutsneck2a.jpg)
(http://www.summersoccer.com/golf/images/proutsneck/proutsneck15.jpg)
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Rutland in Vermont is a fabulous course, very well maintained. Barre Country Club is also a Styles, but I believe it's just 9 of 18.. the routing is quite nice. Rutland is worthy of a Road Trip!!
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Jim K
That's good to know. I have driven through the Lekarica complex a few times and left uninspired. It always looked really poorly kept, and I couldn't see much of interest from the street view.
It was recently on the auction block, forced or not-I don't know. Did it change hands? Are there any promises for its future?
Bumped this b/c Lekarica is for sale again and not too sure if it will remain a golf course (gonna try and hit it up before it possibly disappears forever): http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1503-Highland-Park-Dr-Lake-Wales-FL-33898/2106712363_zpid/
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Starmount Forest CC in Greensboro NC is a very fun Stiles & Van Kleek course. Lester George renovated several years ago -- he can chime in because I am not sure if he intended to restore or renovate (but I don't think he changed the routing).
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Bumped this b/c Lekarica is for sale again and not too sure if it will remain a golf course (gonna try and hit it up before it possibly disappears forever): http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1503-Highland-Park-Dr-Lake-Wales-FL-33898/2106712363_zpid/
I don't know how this could be saved. Ignoring the golf course, you have 1920's Florida mansions that sit next to 1980's Florida bungalows, due to bankruptcies and bad zoning over the years.
I will argue that JK is right on this one, and a correction of reducing courses by 10-20% in the USA is good for the game!
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Starmount Forest CC in Greensboro NC is a very fun Stiles & Van Kleek course. Lester George renovated several years ago -- he can chime in because I am not sure if he intended to restore or renovate (but I don't think he changed the routing).
I would be curious to know what work was done at Starmount. Also, the Old Fort & Lake Lure 9 hole courses look interesting for some off the beaten path fun.
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Wayne Stiles did a lot of work in the New England area. Someone before posted that he did Concord Country Club in Concord NH. I believe that is incorrect; Ralph Barton is credited with the original nine there, which Geoff Cornish added to in the late 60's or early 70's. The Barton holes were mixed into the Cornish holes to form the routing in play today.
I will 2nd the opinions about the quality of Stile's work at Rutland CC. The place needs a serious tree trim, a not uncommon problem with northeast courses, but it sports some outstanding holes. If memory serves, the 14th was originally blessed with an infinity green which unfortunately is now backdropped with trees, but it's apparent nature is still on display. Many other worthy holes including 17 and 18 where treacherous greens prominently effect the scores of the unwary.
Stiles incorporated false fronts into many of his greens. Pine Brook in Weston MA has a number of outstanding Stiles greens that remain original to my knowledge and incorporate this feature. His work is sometimes confused with Ross's as there are stylistic similarities in green and bunker styles.
For those who don't know, Kevin Mendik is probably the most knowledgable Stiles expert on the planet. He and Bob Labance wrote an excellent book on Stiles,"The Life and Work of Wayne Stiles". Bob is, regretfully, no longer with us. As Kevin points out, Wayne was not much of a record keeper and some of his only written words can be found in his master plan recomendations for Gulph Mills which Mr. Paul referenced previously.
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One of my father's (and his father's) courses was Woods Hole on the Cape and S & VK were involved there. It was the second 18-hole course I ever played (Winchester CC was the first) and the first place I ever met a first class hooker (courtesy of my Uncle Ben, although he never left her from his side, alas....).
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An excellent course from these guys is Thorny Lea in Brockton, Mass. Interesting to note that some of the very best amateur golfers in Massachusetts have been produced out of this club. Makes me wonder, does good GCA breed good golfers?
It's layout and history can be viewed at:
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/golf/view_course.asp?GRP=7&NS=PUBLIC&APP=32
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/public/public.asp?grp=7&NS=PUBLIC
Agreed, Thorny Lea has some really awesome holes. It's certainly a treat that flies under the Boston radar when the belt notchers are in town.
MM
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I swung by Lekarica today and happened to run into the owner. He is looking to sell and whoever ends up buying it is going to get is for basically nothing (I was shocked at the price that he is willing to unload the course). I don't have high hopes that it will remain a golf course, but who knows, maybe someone that loves old golf courses will buy it and turn it around.
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Starmount Forest CC in Greensboro NC is a very fun Stiles & Van Kleek course. Lester George renovated several years ago -- he can chime in because I am not sure if he intended to restore or renovate (but I don't think he changed the routing).
I have a meeting in GBO in January. Memo to self. Go play SF.
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The work we did at Starmount Forest was completed over the top of a George Cobb renovation in around 1970. I have Cobbs Master Plan. The good thing about Cobbs plan is that it is overlaid on the Stiles and Van Kleek original course (or at least what was left) and provides great insight into the original design intent.
Cobb did not change the routing (as far as I can tell) and nor did I. Very solid routing. When I got there, the club wanted something "new". I still used the original plan by Stiles and Van Kleek to temper my decisions on placement of hazards.
Sam Snead won four of his eight GGO's at Starmount but sometime in his career was very critical of the course which made the owner so furious Snead was invited to never come back. When I finished my renovation, the club and Snead reconnected and Sam came down for dinner one night. I was told he liked what he saw of my work and he was very gracious while there. Little did I know at the time that I would be hired years later to restore the Old White where Snead spent most of his life as the professional.
Lester
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Norwood Hills in St Louis is a 36 hole Stile's complex here I grew up playing. It's West course hosted the 1948 PGA Championship won by Ben Hogan.
This is from Superintendent magazine:
"With most of his work centered in New England, it is a mystery how Stiles landed a job in St. Louis. In 1929, he would employ a nationwide clipping service to locate clubs seeking architects, but in 1921 there must have been a personal connection that led him to Norwood Hills in the gateway to the West.
Originally named North Hills Country Club, the 45-hole complex was one of the finest facilities in the Midwest, and 86 years later remains one of the architect’s greatest achievements. The nine-hole short course for ladies and beginners has been eliminated, but the 36 holes that remain are mostly original and have been treated with respect throughout their architectural life, reflecting an authenticity and adherence to Stiles’ design principles that has been lost at many of his other courses."
According to the article, Norwood was built before Van Kleek became his partner however
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Cannot imagine a more authoritative piece on Wayne Stiles, including his work with Van Kleek, than the book, "The Life and Work of Wayne Stiles" by Bob Labbance and Kevin Mendik. A beautiful book with detailed information about Stiles' golf courses, including terrific images. I notice that the Wayne Stiles Society's website, administered by Kevin Mendik is down, currently. I believe that Kevin would be the primary source for obtaining the book.
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This is another recommendation for "The Life and Work of Wayne Stiles" by Bob Labbance and Kevin Mendik.
Ditto the remarks by Ed, above.
Just wanted to add that the book has 5 pages about Norwood.
Obviously there are numerous references to Van Kleek, plus 4 pages just about Van Kleek.
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Folks, please note that the Stiles (not Styles!) website is up and running at www.waynestilessociety.org no longer at .com. I undertook a major upgrade last December and am currently catching up on what has come my way in recent months. Anyone wishing to contact me regarding new information or simply with questions about what is out there, feel free to do so through the contact page on the website.
Prouts Neck is indeed a gem.
Plenty of great public Stiles courses in the Boston area; I highly recommend South Shore in Hingham and Larry Gannon in Lynn.
I have been working with the good folks at Norwood Hills in St. Louis to develop a more active Society, in the manner of Walter Travis, AW Tillinghast and Donald Ross. The inaugural event will be held in September 2015 at Norwood Hills, followed in 2016 at Nashua CC in New Hampshire to coincide with their centennial. There will of course, be a hickory component.
As for my personal favorites, I enjoy most the course I am playing on.
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Folks, please note that the Stiles (not Styles!) website is up and running at www.waynestilessociety.org no longer at .com. I undertook a major upgrade last December and am currently catching up on what has come my way in recent months. Anyone wishing to contact me regarding new information or simply with questions about what is out there, feel free to do so through the contact page on the website.
Prouts Neck is indeed a gem.
Plenty of great public Stiles courses in the Boston area; I highly recommend South Shore in Hingham and Larry Gannon in Lynn.
I have been working with the good folks at Norwood Hills in St. Louis to develop a more active Society, in the manner of Walter Travis, AW Tillinghast and Donald Ross. The inaugural event will be held in September 2015 at Norwood Hills, followed in 2016 at Nashua CC in New Hampshire to coincide with their centennial. There will of course, be a hickory component.
As for my personal favorites, I enjoy most the course I am playing on.
Kevin, glad you are getting this going again. I think both Scott Edwards (from the Florida Historic Golf Trail) and I can give you some good information and images in the near future.
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I swung by Lekarica today and happened to run into the owner. He is looking to sell and whoever ends up buying it is going to get is for basically nothing (I was shocked at the price that he is willing to unload the course). I don't have high hopes that it will remain a golf course, but who knows, maybe someone that loves old golf courses will buy it and turn it around.
Rees,
any news on Lekarica?
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I grew up on Styles & Van Kleek at Cranwell in Lenox, MA. It was an unloved gem in the possession of the Jesuits who had run the then defunct Boy's prep school. As an unirrigated under funded Public access course it was awesome. Great fun and always challenging with some awesome greens, especially the back 9. It was purchased in late 80's and developers started putting up condos and sliced and diced some of the very best Holes. It is now a shell of it's former self, but dare I say in 1985 would have been a superior layout to Taconic. It's a real shame no one will ever get to enjoy it the way S&VK intended it to be.
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I grew up on Styles & Van Kleek at Cranwell in Lenox, MA. It was an unloved gem in the possession of the Jesuits who had run the then defunct Boy's prep school. As an unirrigated under funded Public access course it was awesome. Great fun and always challenging with some awesome greens, especially the back 9. It was purchased in late 80's and developers started putting up condos and sliced and diced some of the very best Holes. It is now a shell of it's former self, but dare I say in 1985 would have been a superior layout to Taconic. It's a real shame no one will ever get to enjoy it the way S&VK intended it to be.
Cranwell has very questionable routing decisions in its current form. Some shoved in holes and long green to tee walks make Cranwell pretty ho hum and is not in the same discussion as Taconic.
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Ran,
If you're around Boston, you should check out Nehoiden, which is in Wellesley - it has some really cool features including a semi blind punchbowl-ish par 3.
I know it's not exactly like saying "hey, I can get you on Pine Valley, just let me know..." but I can arrange it if you want to go play it...
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I grew up on Styles & Van Kleek at Cranwell in Lenox, MA. It was an unloved gem in the possession of the Jesuits who had run the then defunct Boy's prep school. As an unirrigated under funded Public access course it was awesome. Great fun and always challenging with some awesome greens, especially the back 9. It was purchased in late 80's and developers started putting up condos and sliced and diced some of the very best Holes. It is now a shell of it's former self, but dare I say in 1985 would have been a superior layout to Taconic. It's a real shame no one will ever get to enjoy it the way S&VK intended it to be.
I also grew up around the area and played Cranwell often in the late '70's and '80's. There was a thread on Cranwell a few years ago and Tom O'Rourke posted the following:
I was a student there when it was a high school, class of 1969. When I arrived there in 1965 it was a nine hole course. The first 5 holes and the last 4 holes were the course. In 1966 the other nine holes were added. That may be the disjoint. The fifth was a par 5 and is now a par 4 as homes were added near the tee. I see one of the par 4s on the back is now a par 3 and the par is now 69. I am not sure if those extra holes were once there, abandoned and redone, or if Stiles had no part of them and they were added by someone, but the course has been altered too much over the years to be an original.
Pretty interesting stuff as I thought the entire course was Stiles. This would explain the disjointed routing on the back nine.
Ken
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Cranwell had been sliced up to allow for Townhouses to be built, the 70's era 18 hole routing, though it did include one long walk/ride from the 9th green to 10th tee was very solid. The greens were extremely challenging at that era's greenspeeds and a solid score on that track was an accomplishment. I doubt many here would have had the privilege.
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Holes that were not in use in 60's were abandoned to cut cost, layout was in existence from the 20's I believe.
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Holes that were not in use in 60's were abandoned to cut cost, layout was in existence from the 20's I believe.
If that is true, where did the abandon 9 holes exist? Were the 1920 holes resurrected into the later ones (using the same playing corridors)?
9 to 10 was an extremely long walk but the holes were so isolated it was an enjoyable stroll. I remember the green speeds, especially when trying to putt the 15th green to a back pin location. Think Payne Stewart at Olympic.
Ken
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For what its worth, I work with Thorny Lea...
They will undergoing a massive tree removal program starting this winter.
If weather co-operates, the results should be pretty amazing.
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In Mendik and Labbance's book "The Life and Work of Wayne Stiles," the description of Cranwell, first named Berkshires Hunt & CC then Wyndhurst Club then Cranwell Prep School Course, mentions the first three holes are not Stiles, but the rest of the course is. Holes 9-14, which circle Blantyre Castle property, are part of the original routing and were abandon but then rediscovered by prep school students and one of the Jesuit teachers.
My problem is in the book, there's a scorecard from Wyndhurst Club showing a round between Wayne Stiles and Bruce Mathews. No date is given and I've never been able to match a routing between the scorecard, historical aerials (dating back to 1959) and what the course was like when I played in the early 1980's. If the current routing of holes 9-14 are original, I'm finding no historical flow to match up with. Because the holes are so isolated, they couldn't be used "out of order." Holes 1-3 are part of the aerials dating from 1959 which could support the addition after the property became a prep school.
Stiles and Mathews played a course measuring 6430 yards and a par of 71. There has been much work done around the main building proving at least one green was lost from the historical aerials. Also, hole 11 was turned from a nice 400+ yard par 4 to a goofy 181 yard par 3 due to real estate changes. The current course plays at 5991 yards par 69. Does anyone else know changes made to the course over the years explaining the loss in yardage?
Ken
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They installed irrigation at Cranwell in the 95' time frame, prior to that when the course baked out in summer it was tremendous fun and a real test of nerves. At "old" green speeds (think 7-8 tops) the greens, especially on the back 9 (11,12,13, 15, 16) were treacherous and a blast. Irrigating the course really changed the character of the place and that combined with the changes that were made to accommodate condominiums (11 from par 5 to 4, 13 with added drain swail, 14 tee moved up about 50 yards, 4 tee moved forward to render toothless par 5 now a 4) have taken away the fun IMHO. Tree removal, condo removal and a commitment to firm and fast could really bring it back but it'll never happen.
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any news on Lekarica?
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For what its worth, I work with Thorny Lea...
They will undergoing a massive tree removal program starting this winter.
If weather co-operates, the results should be pretty amazing.
Ian, curious if this work happened, if you can post any pics, and what your definition of 'massive tree removal' is?!
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Taconic is their most famous layout in the area but they are also responsible for the course at Cranwell Resort and Spa. The old layout at Cranwell was wonderful but it has been sliced and diced in the name of condos and no longer measures up to the original. In it's old form that lasted until about 1983 or so it was incredibly fun and challenging with a set of greens that were tough to put at 80's green speeds ( guessing around 7 or 8) but that course doesn't exist anymore. Still worth a look especially when off season rates are in effect in the fall of the year, when foliage makes it very pretty.
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Anyone been to Woods Hole Golf Club which is credited to Stiles/Van Kleek?
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Woods Hole has always fascinated from their course tour, although I have yet to play it.
Looks like a TON of ground movement like an Eastward Ho, etc.
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Thorny Lea in Brockton MA has some pretty neat features. They have done a bit of tinkering, but lots to still go see!