Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: George Pazin on December 15, 2003, 05:21:21 PM
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Well, I can read behind the lines of Brad Klein's personal attack on me - he was calling me out to offer something of actual GCA value. :)
To that end, I offer the following photos that I took this past summer at the US Amateur at Oakmont. I used disposable cameras in case some security guard chose to confiscate them and I shot one roll of black & white and one roll of panoramic photos.
The majority of the b&w photos I have are of a few select holes - mostly 6, 8, 10 & 12 - because these are holes that I thought were both incredible holes and (sadly) somewhat unique in American golf.
I will start with some of the more random shots:
#1 green from left side - appraoch is from right, note how green slopes to back
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/1 green.jpg)
"Big Mouth" - DEEP greenside bunker fronting the right side of 17
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/bigmouth.jpg)
#3 green from right rough - note how it appears that Fownes simply shaved off the top of a hill for this incredible green
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/3 green right rough.jpg)
#3 green to the rear
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/behind 3.jpg)
#5 approach shot - damn that green looks small!
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/5 approach.jpg)
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Now some shots of #6, a mid-length par 3 that you don't hear much about. About 160-180 depending on hole location yards, slightly downhill I think.
#6 from the tee - note extreme right to left slope of green
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/6 tee.jpg)
#6 from behind green, slightly left looking back
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/6 behind green.jpg)
#6 behind green, slightly right looking back, #7 fairway in background
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/6 behind green 2.jpg)
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Some shots of #8, a par 3 that looks to be approximately one mile long, but actually is about 250, depending again on hole location. Most of the guys I saw hit woods, but a few hit irons.
#8 Tee shot - note how green appears to be but a sliver, fronted by a bunker with a big lip (okay you can barely see the bunker on the pic - in person it looks more formidable)
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/8 tee.jpg)
#8 behind bunker that appears to front green - holy cow, look how much room there is to run the approach in!
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/8 in front of green.jpg)
#8 green looking from the right rough short of green
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/8 green from right.jpg)
What a par 3!
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Now some shots of #10. A lot of action occured on #10. It was won by more than a few players with a bogey. The fairway goes relatively straight, but the dramatic drop to the last 150+ yards, coupled with a green that slopes a lot front to back, meant that the approaches had to be well thought out. Someone (I think JohnV) told me he heard Vijay practiced a lot of chip shots from the back left of the 10th green, because he knew there was a good chance he'd end up there. And Tom P has a good Hogan line about being past the 10th green - I'll let him share it.
#10 fairway from left
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/10 fairway 2.jpg)
More of rolling 10th fairway
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/10 fairway 3.jpg)
#10 green from left - note front to back slope
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/10 green left side.jpg)
#10 green from back left - you can almost see the ruts Vijay left behind :)
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/10 green back left.jpg)
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Some shots of #12, quite obviously the best par 5 in North America!
From the right rough, looking back up the rollercoaster fairway
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/12 fairway look back.jpg)
12th fairway from the left rough, the contours and rolls are more impressive in person
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/12 fairway.jpg)
Another shot of the 12th fairway
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/12 fairway 2.jpg)
The incredible 12th green from the back right rear (as viewed by photographer)
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/12 green.jpg)
#12 green from back left rear - yes, it is sloping that much front to back
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/12 green 2.jpg)
Again, this hole was decided quite a few times with pars and bogeys - yet Trip Kuehne eagled it during stroke play!
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#13 is a shortish par 3 that plays much longer due to the fact that it is significantly uphill. The green slopes severly back to front.
#13 green
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/13green.jpg)
The 15th green as viewed from about 50 yards out to the left
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/15apprch.jpg)
The winner gets a victory hug
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/victory hug.jpg)
The award ceremony - Mark Studer's somewhere back there :)
(http://www.nauticom.net/www/tshirts/ceremony.jpg)
I hope you enjoy these photos one-tenth as much as I enjoyed my time spent at Oakmont. It's hard - no, impossible - for me the imagine a better championship venue. Don't listen to Tom D - this one is a definite 10! Each hole is a challenge in every way possible. Tough to par, tough to bogey from the wrong place, yet capable of yielding the odd birdie or three with strong play. Wow, what a true treasure of American golf.
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Where these pics taken at this summer's. U.S. Am?
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Thanks for taking the time to post the pics, George. Man the rough looked impenatrable. It will be interesting to see how the big boys handle Oakmont its next go-around at the U.S. Open.
After looking at all of the pics and thinking of them as a whole, I don't recall one tree coming into view as being in play, or crowding the course. The tree removal program appears to be working well.
Cheers,
Brad Swanson
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George:
Thank you very much for posting the photos.
My husband and I also attended several rounds of the 2003 US Amateur. Oakmont is one my favorite golf courses. I've had the good fortune to play it twice. It's incredibly difficult, but I just love it. 8)
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George:
Great picture of "Big Mouth." ;)
I had to play out of that thing!! :-[
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Excellent stuff, George
Even though you brazenly broke the "3 hour" rule TWICE in your first 3 posts, there's enough in there about architecture to get you back into Dr. Klein's good graces, I think....
I've yet to see a cogent argument as to why Oakmont is NOT one of the very top (i.e. Pine Valley/CPC/Shinnecock/Pebble) courses in the US, possibly even worthy of, from time to time, being crowned as THE best. Is it just the Pittsburgh syndrome at work?
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Rich:
Good point.
Oakmont should be in the 'top 5.'
Mine would be: Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Pinehurst #2, Shinnecock and Oakmont.
;)
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"I've yet to see a cogent argument as to why Oakmont is NOT one of the very top (i.e. Pine Valley/CPC/Shinnecock/Pebble) courses in the US, possibly even worthy of, from time to time, being crowned as THE best. Is it just the Pittsburgh syndrome at work?"
Rich:
That's because there isn't a cogent argument. If one is looking for the top tournament golf course of an old style in America Oakmont is at or very near the top and has been for years. There's no question of that.
Some, like Ran, think of Oakmont and the playing of it as sort of cold and unfriendly. There's a good reason for that--it is sort of cold and unfriendly to one's score if you're not damn careful on it.
I think Oakmont is pretty unique in American architecture due the way its designed when one considers its age. It's basically a center directed golf course off the tees and the approaches are all about some really slick basically on grade greens.
They've pretty much always tried to keep Oakmont firm and the basic strategy to play it correctly since it is so center directed is a lot more about distance strategy than direction strategy. Pretty unique that way, particularly for its age.
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George
Thanks for sharing those pictures.
Oakmont looks fantastic. I think the photos and your descriptions point out well to us many of the the features of its architecture that allow it to remain a competitive test of golf for the best and yet require thought and good course management for all.
A refreshing thing to see on here lately.
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Great photos. In talking to a friend who made it to match play last year, he complained about the many blind tee shots and approach shots. Is he correct?
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Rich & Tom Paul;
I'm shocked and astonished at you guys! :o
Are you two actually suggesting that there should even be such a thing as a "Top Five"?? ;)
Are you guys rating courses again!?? ;D
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Anthony -
Yes, these photos were taken during the Amateur. I tried to avoid the action so I would cause any problems, but you obviously will see some people in some shots. The photo of the 3rd green in particular I took because I thought the people lining the side of the green more clearly delineated the curvature of the ground.
Rich -
I hadn't thought of my violation - I did it because my ISP is new to me & I wanted to be able to check that things were going smoothly. As to why Oakmont is not top 5, I couldn't say. Maybe if I saw Cypress, PV, Augusta, Shinnecock, etc., in person, I'd think they were better, though I doubt it - more likely I'd just thin they were different. But I think two things hurt Oakmont: no ocean :) and the fact that most folks probably feel beat up upon completion of their round! Some posters on this very site have commented to me that they wouldn't want to play Oakmont every day - I can think of bigger problems to have!
Tim Liddy -
I didn't notice many blind shots in the traditional sense - ie. blocked out by trees or large landforms - but there are definitely quite a few instances where one is driving over ridges, both downhill and uphill. The fairway widths looked pretty reasonable to me, but obviously I wasn't in the competition. The USGA discriminates against high handicappers through its application process. :)
To everyone -
Thanks for the kind words regarding the photos. I will be posting the panorama shots in a few days. All I can say is that the course is much more impressive in person, these shots hardly do it justice.
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Mike
Good to see you out of hibernation and as non-logorrheic as ever!
Tom P and I were referring to other people's "Top 5" lists, which we continue to despise. We remain pure.
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I've yet to see a cogent argument as to why Oakmont is NOT one of the very top (i.e. Pine Valley/CPC/Shinnecock/Pebble) courses in the US, possibly even worthy of, from time to time, being crowned as THE best.
Rich;
Good to be here. Thanks!
Now, how can one read what you wrote above and not construe it as "comparing" courses to find "THE best"?
You're into the very heart of the ranking system! ;) ;D
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Mike
It was a tyop. I meant to say "THE beast." ???
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"In talking to a friend who made it to match play last year, he complained about the many blind tee shots and approach shots. Is he correct?"
Tim Liddy:
Where's that friend of yours from--flat Florida or some desert floor? Man, if he thinks Oakmont has many blind shots tell him to stay out of the northeast entirely. One could call Oakmont many things but 'many blind shots' would sure be a new one on me--that is if that young man is insisting on seeing the bottom of the pin on every hole.
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Mike Cirba:
I'm not into rating and ranking at all---the only thing I was suggesting is no matter what a bunch of numb-skulls raters and rankers are even they could hardly fail to see that Oakmont is in a group of a handful (including a couple of fingers shot off in a gun accident) of championship courses in America. Shinnecock is right after Oakmont's ass these days and we'll see how it all shakes out in the years to come! That mundane thing on the Monterey coast with about 12 good holes and some pretty views will be toast!
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TE Paul
His list:
#1 –shot to green, #3- shot to green, #4- second shot to green (par 5, so this does not count to me), #7- shot to green, #9- tee shot and shot to green if pin is right, #10- tee shot, #16-tee shot, #17 –tee shot.
Speaking of Indiana -Go Colts
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Oakmont has some partially "blind" shots, but these are self-inflicted. The tee shot at 17 is only blind for the long hitter attempting a better position. The others on Tim's friend's list involve blind surfaces, but hardly what we would call blind shots.
Nice photos.
I remind all of you, again, that the wonderful No. 8 green is the
"modern" work of Jack Snyder responding to members — and pro Lou Worsham's — concerns on the severity of the slope on the green which was there prior to 1952. Jack rebuilt No. 8 and held the right side up higher...allowing a well executed shot to stay rather than falling off as so many were. The integrity, however, was upheld and the hole plays — trust me — devilish and without out regard for "almost".
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Forrest -
Did Jack do any work to the surrounds on #8, or just the green surface?
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TE Paul
His list:
#1 –shot to green, #3- shot to green, #4- second shot to green (par 5, so this does not count to me), #7- shot to green, #9- tee shot and shot to green if pin is right, #10- tee shot, #16-tee shot, #17 –tee shot.
Speaking of Indiana -Go Colts
As Tom P & Forrest indicated, these aren't what is normally referred to as blind shots - I like Forrest's term of blind surfaces. Particularly in the case of calling #9 approach to a right pin, wow, that's calling any pin behind a bunker lip blind.
I think also that you must mean 15 & not 16 tee shot, as 16 is a midlength par 3.
Most of the blind surfaces are not fronted by bunkers, so I think that at least partially mitigates the blindness. #1, 3 and 10 this is true, 4 & 7 mostly true. 4 isn't blind for most mortals, as not a lot of us will go for the green on a 617 yard par 5.
I definitely wouldn't call the approach to #3 blind. If so, one would be calling any uphill approach blind. I guess it's more blind if you drive it to the right off the tee, but my recollection is that a tee shot to the left side of the fairway allows one to see the green. Of course, Trip Keuhne drove it over the ridge, a carry of reputedly some 320+ yards, to ensure that his approach to #3 wasn't blind - though I think he only did this in the practice round.
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Jack re-built the green and they finished the entire area, including the Sahara trap. The trap stayed in location. They also built a forward tee at the same time.
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George
Nice job. I think the black and white pictures might bring the contours out a little better.
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also bumping for people who haven't seen 'em.