Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy_Naccarato on April 15, 2003, 07:46:51 AM
-
Want to congratulate everyone on the entry's to the design contest. They all were very good routings, with the Blue Ribbon Prize being awarded to the routing that best emphasized the site. You guys had some pretty stiff competition too! Both with-in yourselves and another Architect known as C.B. MacDonald!
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Daniels.jpg)
The site used for this contest is actually that of the former and much famed 1921 Estate course for T. Sufferin Tailor, which is not only featured in George Bahto's "The Evangilist of Golf" but also Daniel Wexler's Lost Links. The difference was, you were allowed to route the course to more of the lots, move houses, or in this case--estates! Tailer owned four lots which as you will see in the drawing was quite a chore in routing. In MacDonald fashion he created:
#1-320 Yards-The Fifth at Garden City
#2-545 Yards-Long Hole:Shore Acres:Lake Bluff
#3-191 Yards-To the Harbor, North Berwick, Redan
#4-305 Yards-Ocean Reef, 1st National
#5-315 Yards-Ocean Drive Cape Hole, Lido
#6-140 Yards-Ocean: 6th National, 17th Piping Rock
#7-258 Yards-Hill to Carry, Then 11th at St. Andrews
#8-510 Yards-Road Hole: St. Andrews, 8th Piping Rock
#9-460 Yards-Raynor's Prize Dog Leg
The course featured a much heralded invitational tournament called the Golden Mashie, where some of the biggest names in the game competed for an actual gold-plated Mashie iron valued at $5,000!
The club had one member--Tailer himself, but any of the members of Newport Country Club were allowed to play the course whenever they wanted.
Now on to the winners!
The Blue Ribbon winner was Jim Thompson. Congrats Jim, you are the winner of a signed copy of "The Evangelist of Golf." Please email me where you would like to have the book sent.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Jim Thompson.JPG)
-
Very cool effort by Jim Thompson, who obviously must be related to the great Stanley.
And Tommy, any prize for NOT cheating and submitting a direct copy of CB Mac's plan?... Last week I recognized this as the Tailor estate right away, as I'm sure many others did, from the great books you mention. ;)
TH
-
T,
An exact duplicate would have been questioned, but something inspired form the original would have been more then welcomed!
BTW, Thanks to all who knew and for not saying anything!
-
I was debating how close I could make it and still slip it past you. I want George to autograph my copy of the book! ;D
Seriously though, knowing that this already existed and was routed by one of the all-time gods of architecture just made it kinda overwhelming. Hell, I don't know how to use the software necessary to do this, and I also very DEFINITELY know my limitations, so it's not like I was gonna submit something anyway... but comparing to CBMac just made it that much more frightening!
Kudos to those who did send in entries... I admire anyone who can actually do this.
TH
-
Do we get a peek at all entries...???
Good show Jim Thompson..!
-
Boy, Tommy and I had a lot of trouble selection JUST ONE of the many great renditions sent in.
I thank everyone who participated and congratulations to the winner Jim Thompson.
We've got a lot of talented people here in "our" group!
Tommy, this was an excellent idea - thanks to you as well.
There were a series of about 13 paintings done of the Mr. Tailer's Ocean Links course and I'll see if
Tommy will post some of them on this site. They appeared in the old Golf Illustrated and American Golfer
magazines in the 1920's. I've only ever uncovered one of them and would love to know if there are others
around. Four of them are in my book - one a signed version from Mr. Tailer to CBM - interesting.
Again thanks to all.
-
BTW - Tommy gave you a bit more room than was given to Seth Raynor by Tailer.
-
Jim Thompson,
Congratulations !!
-
I'll try to get to posting the pictures of the pictures as wellas everyone's entry's later today, maybe tonight.
Special thanks for all of this goes to Jeremy Glenn, who really started all of this some time ago on Traditionalgolf.com.
Also to the Mad Armenian who helped with a lot of information some weeks ago.
-
Congrats Jim and Tommy I hope you and George will do this again soon. Masters Week fill all my golf thoughts for those most wonderful days.
-
A heck of a nice effort Jim Thompson.
I like your boomerang and reverse boomerang greens but I'm curious about the placement of the bunkers on the boomerang shaped green. Why not a single bunker in the front center as is traditional? Would there be a hollow in the front as drawn?
-
Nice job Jim. I for one treated this like I used to treat term papers in my youth. I got busy on it a couple of hours after it was due! ::) :P I was so sloppy with it, I didn't site a maintenance facility, nor irrigation source. ???
As to the width question on another thread, I did in deed go wide as you did with alternate possible routes depeding on what I assumed would be a windy site of sandy firm and fast coastal sandy dune like conditions. I was thinking of something like Pacific Grove. I can't wait to see others ideas as well.
-
Tommy can feel free to post mine, but mine looks like my five year old took crayons to it. I'm just not technologically inclined like many on this site. I opened it in paintbrush and was like a kid with crayons and a kick ass new coloring book! Same problems too, I couldn't stay within the lines.
-
What's interesting about CB's routing is that he gets a rather long hole in the small parcel of land and he doesn't use the lower left portion of the property, which I would think would provide some interesting winds and terrain. I really like Jim's use of that lower left portion. I know I'd like to play that nine holes!
-
Jaime, You described mine to a tee. I got a new computer with windows XP and couldn't even find the paint program at first. :-/ My wife teaches second grade and she undoubtedly has kids in her class that could color, puter-paint better than I.
-
Jamie, I'll have you know that you finsihed a VERY close second. This will show you how much art work was considered!
Shooter finished tied for third, and he had also never operated MS Paint before, and didn't even know that he could use fonts also! He simply tried to steadly draw the numbers in, and anyone who has doodled with MS Paint, knows how much of a task it is!
O.K., you asked for it! Here are all of the drawings! (In no paticular order.)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/f2-THousteauReverse.jpg)
Todd Housteau
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/j-JDuffner.jpg)
Jamie Duffner
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/g-Shooter.jpg)
Shooter
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/e-Sbiehnl.jpg)
Steven Biehl
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/a-IAndrew.jpg)
Ian Andrew
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/d-Rnybladt.jpg)
Robert Nybladt
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/c-Jkennedy.jpg)
Jim Kennedy
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/h-Mnuzzo.jpg)
Mike Nuzzo
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/i-Mdugger.jpg)
Michael Dugger
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/k-Cclouser.jpg)
Chris Clouser
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/l-Jglenn.jpg)
Jeremy Glenn
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/m-Dlash.jpg)
Derek Lash
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Oceanlinks/n-DDaley.jpg)
Dick Daley
-
BTW, There is no truth to the rumor that Dick Daley built a Nuclear Power Plant for 3 phase power, nor is the site near an active weapons-grade Plutonium mine.:)
-
I am quite amazed that Mike Dugger and I have 6 of 9 holes for the most part identical. They are in slightly different sequence, but not by much. He has a reverse redan on his #4 where mine is traditional on my #2, and the come back hole on the back 40 is the same basic principle flirting with a right side hazard on a line of charm or a safer but fall away wider FW up right. His 3 is my 1. His 6 my 4 but par is 4 for him 5 for me, his 5 my 7. But most interesting for me is our thoughts on the finish hole with what I felt would be a waste area of alps of mounds laced with bunkering and his a waste-sand area to split the fairway with a forced carry up the hill to the green and room to play short for the second shot. We both left a narrow chance for a bounding ball to run up to green, but I put the traditional backstop bunker to the rear.
I must say Jaime Duffner and I saw it almost as similar of a routing as with Mike.
For the record, I would place my maintenance sheds in the corner next to my #1 with the drive in up the property line along the left of #1, and bring the water on from that same high corner of the property. ::)
Now, we will have to get Dr Katz in here to tell us what this all means ;D ;D ;D :-/
-
THESE guys are good :o My submission met a technical demise and was a NDE (never did exist).
Rank amateur,
Mike
-
Congratulations Mr. Thompson!
Thank-you for the contest Tommy, it was a lot of fun to look at all the alternatives. I think that Mr. McDonald guy also shows some real promise ;D
Thanks for a wonderful prize George, that was very generous.
I like what you started Jeremy.
-
Congrats Mr. Thompson! Great Design!
Mr. Daley
I do see the similarities between yours and Mike's. My idea for the routing has some company as well. It appears Todd submitted a design that can be played in reverse also. They are all interesting routings. I hope some healthy discussion can come of all this.
Mr. Naccarato and Mr. Bahto. A big thanks goes to both of you! This was a lot of fun and hope we can do more of this in the future.
-
Has anyone else noticed that Mike Nuzzo pulled a "reverse Dr. Mac" and offered up a TEN? hole design?
RJDaley
I also noticed that Jeremy Glenn's entrance is very similar to ours as well. That was really fun, wasn't it? I was very tempted to make #9 some version of the Lido hole.
-
That Nuzzo is a character. I had to look for a while to figure out his route, then didn't realize it was 10 holes until you spilled the beans. ;D
-
I also liked Mike's routing because you could start it from anywhere. He had no pre-defined point, which was healthy! Sort of like a course in Oregon that I have heard of, but doesn't really exist.:)
I still have yet to hear from Jim Thompson. Jim, if you are out there, your book awaits you!
-
Indeed, Jeremy and Micheal are twins separated at birth.
Does anyone have an idea of how we can do this again in a couple of weeks, or do you even want to? How would we go about selecting interesting aerials with topos? Should we have Tommy be the presenter, or have a rotating guest presenter? The trouble is that the elevation detail on most every "Terraserver" or "Mapquest" topo is on 10feet and not enough detail to do some really creative thinking and visualizing.
-
Steven,
you're correct, my design can be played in reverse. Tommy actually posted the reverse routing in the picture above because it was rated higher by the judges. The black lines show the forward routing. The only hole that plays the same on both routings is the 9th. The reverse routing is a little dangerous because you have to hit across some greens and tees.
Todd
-
"The reverse routing is a little dangerous because you have to hit across some greens and tees."
Todd -- hopefully this is a private club with only a few members! LOL!
-
Bill,
I figured, hickory sticks and throwback balls, how much could it really hurt!!
Actually, the reverse routing was added as a whim to try and get some "quirky" points from the judges. Alas, they didn't bite. They stayed professional and judged the routings on merit rather then on the extras I added.
It looks like I was the only design to have holes playing through the opening between the two pieces of property. I, of course, was assuming that there were very friendly neighbors, who wouldn't mind an occasional golf ball off the roof. ;)
-
We must have been biting somewhat, we took the Reverse routing over the Forward correct?
Actually, this will show you how George and I judged this. We took into consderation the name, Newport, Rhode Island, where they would take concern over flying pellets traspassing in their airspace!:) Picture it as a Line of Death set forth by someone named Vanderbilt, Rothschild or Rockefeller. I don't think you would want to get into a legal tussle with one of them. They win everytime!
Actually nothing would have been more garish then my attempt which was lost when after failing to save my work, my computer locked-up. Mine was a different take, albeit a more humorous one which would have no doubt taken this great thread and turned it upside down.--it was on this property, The Modern Architects Golf Club complete with housing, condominiums and apartment buildings. I was guarranteeing it not to win, while even being a judge!
The architects represented were:
Tom Fazio-one of his typical holes where a faux creek ran the entire length of the hole and cut sharply to the left out of play, to a green that was set right to left and guarded by a bunker. The driving areas of the creek had fairway bunkers to protect a ball from going in.
Jack Nicklaus-A par 5 that had all of its fairway bunkering set-up to accept a draw or hook shot, with huge areas more then able to accept the power fade.
Arnold Palmer-A par 3 Cape which had the usual Palmer/Seay beach style bunkering. A huge containment mound protects the left green with a bunker that really doesn't come into play. The hole is usually used in all of their designs as well as the same complex at Bay Hill #18
Art Hills-A dogleg par 4 that had a fairway about 10 yards wide, built in a corridor of some 50 yards wide. This was to represent Art's work for US Homes. The hole is surrounded in matchbox style, small secondary retirment housing, with patio of the first home, retired couple & all sitting out there, right in-line of the drive off of the tee. The green is raised substanially, to invoke hitting the green or paying the price.
Ted Robinson--An award winning golf architect, so I had to give him an award winning waterscaped 150 yard, par 3 with a five-tiered green of some 40 feet in length.
Desmond Muirhead-Desmond's version was going to be a LONG 290 yard, impossible to play, but hard to take your eyes off of par 3, that features the symbolism of the legend of the Great GCA God, TE Paul.
A ultra LONG rectangular-shaped green has undulations that made it look like a computer keyboard. The bunkers were outlined Merlot bottles, and the sand is littered with cigarette butts. The setting was the extreme north end of the property where the look could fully emphasize the pastural setting of Featherfield Farm. Piped-in Musak would be that of Pat Mucci laughing his ass off.
Bob Cupp-How could one NOT think of Mr. Cupp's Palmetto Hall, where rectangles, squares and pyramid shaped mounds on this par 4 of some 450 yards, convey a strategy to a Polymegolythicquadranudrum-shaped green. The green itself is surrounded by water. It looks very "pretty" in a Arnold Sharzeneggar "Terminator" sense. VERY high art. If Frank Gearhy is a golfer, he would like it.
Greg Norman Design-An eco-friendly opening hole which requires a 300 yard forced carry over a lake that is filled with a new type of bacteria that can properly eat the remains of the developer who wanted to redesign the course before it opened.
Off of the tee to an hour-glass shaped fairway with no rough, the fairway bunkers on both sides are at an equal distance from the tee, and are round pots filled with crushed white marble. The exposed framing is not decomposed granite, but actually crushed glass from a local reclaimation center, and can be replaced very affordably four times a year. The green is an island situated in a sea of crushed glass. There is a penalty for hitting out of the fairway. Mind you that it is a very bloody one.
Rees Jones-Closing par 4 here on my design, Looks like it may have been a Tillinghast hole at one time, with a fairway that is approriate enough width to land the Concorde. Fairway bunkers on both sides look like they are representations of what Tillie might have produced if Timothy Leary was in charge of construction. The containment mounds look like legions of Republican Guard standing at attention. The green is elevated and the contours are very flat and subtle. It is protected by bunkering that surrounds the green and they are oval-shaped.
-
Thank you all for the kind words!
I have been away from home and was very pleasantly surprised to see the big news.
As for green complexes, I actually sent Tommy complete hole-by-hole scaled out drawings with topo and green complex features. After sending them to him, I realized how crude they were and am very grateful he did not post them! With a little coaxing, I would be happy to clean them up and post them. The v greens are actually dirty optical tricks, from 150 they would probably look very similar, but the tiers were re-arranged.
After dueling with Steve and Jim K in the Strategy thread, I had to go wide and create directional options or forever be labeled a turncoat. The cause of that approach also comes from playing here on the Lake Michigan coastline where, when golf operating folk get to play, the wind forces us to play low running shots as we only seem to play in junk weather. That is part of my hang up over aerial tactics.
Thanks for a great contest Tommy and George! In good winning form, maybe the winner should choose the next tract of land and find something good to offer. Kind of the like buying the competition a drink after the round. Let me know if you are interested. The prize might be a velvet Elvis though, if my wife did not throw it out.
Cheers!
JT