Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Michael Morandi on January 10, 2024, 12:48:16 PM
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LIV promotes shotgun starts as fan friendly, requiring only a 4 hour commitment. Question: insofar as an architect has specific intent in how they lay out the holes, do shotgun starts undermine their work?6
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LIV promotes shotgun starts as fan friendly, requiring only a 4 hour commitment. Question: insofar as an architect has specific intent in how they lay out the holes, do shotgun starts undermine their work?6
Couldn't you say the same about courses that flip their 9's at some point after the course opens, Or changing the sequencing of holes, Or changing the par of holes, Or utilizing composite courses for major championships, Or . . .
I don't believe a shotgun sequence undermines original intent more than any of the other common practices for tournament play.
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It definitely undermines the overall feeling of a round of golf; I dislike playing in shotgun starts. It just feels odd to start/finish somewhere in the middle of a nine.
I think it undermines the architectural intent as well, but probably no moreso than flipping nines (or double teeing 1/10), changing hole orders, etc. as Ben mentions -- not sure I agree that changing the par of a hole changes the architectural intent, though.
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With respect to the pro game, I don't care and I'm sure they don't either.
The strangest shotgun start I've ever experienced is when I played an event at Louisville Country Club, and out group started on hole #15. Here is what the pars are for 15, 16, 17, 18, 1, 2, 3 and 4.
3
3
5
5
5
4
5
3
I'm sure this is not what Walter Travis envisioned, but I'm sure he didn't foresee shotgun starts, either.
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Same question could be asked of tournament (and especially major) courses that utilize a composite routing.
WW
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The sequence and finish at TPC Sawgrass is a hallmark of The Players Championship. If someone played #'s 16-18 as the 3rd-5th holes of the final round the pressure and experience would be totally different. It can't be irrelevant - depending on the course.
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I think preserving "architectural intent" is so far down the list of LIV golf's priorities that it is not even on the list. ;)
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I think preserving "architectural intent" is so far down the list of LIV golf's priorities that it is not even on the list. ;)
+1 😂
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I think preserving "architectural intent" is so far down the list of LIV golf's priorities that it is not even on the list. ;)
+1 😂
You could probably say the same for the PGA Tour
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LIV promotes shotgun starts as fan friendly, requiring only a 4 hour commitment. Question: insofar as an architect has specific intent in how they lay out the holes, do shotgun starts undermine their work?6
Michael,
I don’t really like shotgun starts, but for corporate outings sometimes it is the best choice.
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I think preserving "architectural intent" is so far down the list of LIV golf's priorities that it is not even on the list. ;)
Funny.
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I think preserving "architectural intent" is so far down the list of LIV golf's priorities that it is not even on the list. ;)
Yes, but the same is equally true of the PGA TOUR.
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I think preserving "architectural intent" is so far down the list of LIV golf's priorities that it is not even on the list. ;)
Yes, but the same is equally true of the PGA TOUR.
With 9 of the 33 events (non-majors) from the 2024 PGA Tour schedule being at TPC courses it is clear they have and will continue to choose increasing revenue vs. architectural significant courses.
Let's look at the non major venues, I'll give a Doak rating (+/- 1 probably), is this the best we got for the top of the sport tournaments?
- Kapalua Plantation - 7
- Waialae CC - 7
- PGA West Stadium - 7
- LaQuinta CC (shared hosting) - 4
- Torrey Pines South - 5
- Torrey Pines North (shared hosting) - 4
- Pebble Beach - 9
- Spyglass Hill - 7
- TPC Scottsdale - 5
- Riviera CC - 9
- Vidanta Vallarta - ?
- PGA National Champion - 5
- Bay Hill - 5
- Grand Reserve - ?
- TPC Sawgrass - 8
- Innisbrook Resort Copperhead - 5
- Memorial Park - 6
- TPC San Antonio -4
- Harbour Town - 7
- TPC Louisana - 4
- TPC Craig Ranch - 4
- Quail Hollow - 6
- Dunes Golf & Beach - 4
- Colonial CC - 4
- Hamilton Golf CC - 7
- Muirfield Villiage - 7
- TPC River Highlands - 4
- Detroit GC - 5
- TPC Deere Run - 4
- Tahoe Mountain Old Greenwood - 4
- TPC Twin Cities - 4
- Sedgefield - 6
- TPC Southwind - 5
- Castle Pines - 7
- East Lake - 6
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I’m pretty sure the reason there aren’t more 8’s 9’s and 10’s hosting Tour events isn’t because the Tours aren’t interested in architecture. It’s because those venues aren’t interested in the Tours.
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I think preserving "architectural intent" is so far down the list of LIV golf's priorities that it is not even on the list. ;)
Yes, but the same is equally true of the PGA TOUR.
With 9 of the 33 events (non-majors) from the 2024 PGA Tour schedule being at TPC courses it is clear they have and will continue to choose increasing revenue vs. architectural significant courses.
Let's look at the non major venues, I'll give a Doak rating (+/- 1 probably), is this the best we got for the top of the sport tournaments?
- Kapalua Plantation - 7
- Waialae CC - 7
- PGA West Stadium - 7
- LaQuinta CC (shared hosting) - 4
- Torrey Pines South - 5
- Torrey Pines North (shared hosting) - 4
- Pebble Beach - 9
- Spyglass Hill - 7
- TPC Scottsdale - 5
- Riviera CC - 9
- Vidanta Vallarta - ?
- PGA National Champion - 5
- Bay Hill - 5
- Grand Reserve - ?
- TPC Sawgrass - 8
- Innisbrook Resort Copperhead - 5
- Memorial Park - 6
- TPC San Antonio -4
- Harbour Town - 7
- TPC Louisana - 4
- TPC Craig Ranch - 4
- Quail Hollow - 6
- Dunes Golf & Beach - 4
- Colonial CC - 4
- Hamilton Golf CC - 7
- Muirfield Villiage - 7
- TPC River Highlands - 4
- Detroit GC - 5
- TPC Deere Run - 4
- Tahoe Mountain Old Greenwood - 4
- TPC Twin Cities - 4
- Sedgefield - 6
- TPC Southwind - 5
- Castle Pines - 7
- East Lake - 6
I did not realize The Dunes G&BC in MB was having a tour event this year. Pretty cool. You have it down as a 4 - that is your personal rating, right? I would have to imagine most (even Mr. Doak himself) would have it in the 6-7 range. Despite it being out of style, it is a solid golf course, and an interesting addition for the pros this year. It's certainly better than PGA National, which you have at a 5. I may add the Dunes event to the (shrinking) list of tournaments I try to watch on TV.
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I did not realize The Dunes G&BC in MB was having a tour event this year. Pretty cool. You have it down as a 4 - that is your personal rating, right? I would have to imagine most (even Mr. Doak himself) would have it in the 6-7 range. Despite it being out of style, it is a solid golf course, and an interesting addition for the pros this year. It's certainly better than PGA National, which you have at a 5. I may add the Dunes event to the (shrinking) list of tournaments I try to watch on TV.
I was going to say something similar -- the Dunes is a much better course than anything listed as a 4 or 5, and I think it's better than at least one of the 6s (East Lake, although that could change once their renovations are complete).
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LIV promotes shotgun starts as fan friendly, requiring only a 4 hour commitment. Question: insofar as an architect has specific intent in how they lay out the holes, do shotgun starts undermine their work?6
I would argue that a course designed with a shotgun start format as the norm, MIGHT yield the best routing,and/or the best 18 holes without having to have certain requirements forced on certain areas of the course.
No obligatory return to the clubhouse after 9 or 18, no need for pre determined things such as as proximity to range,no pressure for a gentle handshake, an overly dramatic finishing hole.
A true, find the best landforms and holes in a sequence that is going to to be played consecutively but not with a predetermined starting point.
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LIV promotes shotgun starts as fan friendly, requiring only a 4 hour commitment. Question: insofar as an architect has specific intent in how they lay out the holes, do shotgun starts undermine their work?6
I would argue that a course designed with a shotgun start format as the norm, MIGHT yield the best routing,and/or the best 18 holes without having to have certain requirements forced on certain areas of the course.
No obligatory return to the clubhouse after 9 or 18, no need for pre determined things such as as proximity to range,no pressure for a gentle handshake, an overly dramatic finishing hole.
A true, find the best landforms and holes in a sequence that is going to to be played consecutively but not with a predetermined starting point.
Jeff,
Maybe, but it would probably be a very tough sell. The things that you suggest would be put aside for a “shotgun routing” don’t seem trivial for developing a golf club.
That aside, do you think NGLA is kind of an example of what you suggest given the location of the original clubhouse?
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LIV promotes shotgun starts as fan friendly, requiring only a 4 hour commitment. Question: insofar as an architect has specific intent in how they lay out the holes, do shotgun starts undermine their work?6
The architectural intent and the potential for more cart-paths to get players out to the starting-tees on holes 2-18 and later on when they have completed their rounds back to the clubhouse from greens 1-17?
And the same for the second batch of players starting 4 hours later, with maybe some nice inward-outward traffic jams, and the same again another 4 hours later.
Sounds fun.
atb
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LIV promotes shotgun starts as fan friendly, requiring only a 4 hour commitment. Question: insofar as an architect has specific intent in how they lay out the holes, do shotgun starts undermine their work?6
I would argue that a course designed with a shotgun start format as the norm, MIGHT yield the best routing,and/or the best 18 holes without having to have certain requirements forced on certain areas of the course.
No obligatory return to the clubhouse after 9 or 18, no need for pre determined things such as as proximity to range,no pressure for a gentle handshake, an overly dramatic finishing hole.
A true, find the best landforms and holes in a sequence that is going to to be played consecutively but not with a predetermined starting point.
Jeff,
Maybe, but it would probably be a very tough sell. The things that you suggest would be put aside for a “shotgun routing” don’t seem trivial for developing a golf club.
That aside, do you think NGLA is kind of an example of what you suggest given the location of the original clubhouse?
Perhaps not much practical applications, but, thinking outside the box.
Perhaps a winter club where frosts are common?
I think there are often shotgun starts in the desert?
The normal start in December, January, February is 10 AM or later for frost 2-5 days a week in the interior southeast(Aiken, Pinehurst etc.)
If so,for a walking course, perhaps a clubhouse in the middle with multiple holes routed or started near the clubhouse(but that defeats my original premise of no pre determined routing issues!)
As far as NGLA, I would walk out to any given hole and have no problem starting there-bad example!
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“Tomorrow’s final round of The Masters. 1PM Shotgun start on CBS.”
QED.
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I once arrived slightly late to Cypress Point with two friends and the late Jim Langley asked us to go and start on #10 tee instead of #1. We were there as his guests so of course that's what we did. It was very weird getting to the oceanfront holes so early in the round, but it didn't ruin my day.
For the Renaissance Cup this year, which is played as a bunch of nine-hole matches, we had to start on the 1st and 10th tees at Lido to get everyone around. We did what we had to. Ideally, you'd like everyone to play the right sequence the first time around, in part because it's hard to remember the order of holes if you start somewhere other than #1.
But it's not like I can control every player's experience of the course, or that I would even want to.
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I remember holes, but I don't recall their number. This happens within five-ten minutes of finishing a round. It happens at all golf courses. I'm so caught up in the moment, in the shot, in the terrain, that I ignore the nomenclature.
For me, the ordering matters little. I understand that for others, it matters lots.
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Shotgun starts had to be created by a general manager. 1) easy to force you to pay for meals when the start and finish time are predetermined 2) gets the staff not paid on the basis of gratuity out of waiting tables 3) get everyone drinking so its more of a party atmosphere.
Increases the need for bigger practice areas, bigger cart staging areas, bigger cart fleets as no one in today’s world can be expected to walk 200 let alone 1200 yards to their hole (especially the caddies), more showers, more staff, more times blocked off for late day shotgun starts.
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Shotgun starts had to be created by a general manager. 1) easy to force you to pay for meals when the start and finish time are predetermined 2) gets the staff not paid on the basis of gratuity out of waiting tables 3) get everyone drinking so its more of a party atmosphere.
Increases the need for bigger practice areas, bigger cart staging areas, bigger cart fleets as no one in today’s world can be expected to walk 200 let alone 1200 yards to their hole (especially the caddies), more showers, more staff, more times blocked off for late day shotgun starts.
Mike,
I've got to think there would have been/still is a fair amount of demand too.
For large groups, can't imagine doing it otherwise where most importantly everyone finishes at the same time to hang out in the dining area for a few drinks, presentations, and networking for their corporate write-offs. Could you imagine teeing off first and having to wait around for 2,3, or 4 hours for everyone else to finish?
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Clearly shotguns are the only practical way to accommodate large outings and some club events. My question pertains to elite events, at both the amateur and professional level.
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Shotgun starts had to be created by a general manager. 1) easy to force you to pay for meals when the start and finish time are predetermined 2) gets the staff not paid on the basis of gratuity out of waiting tables 3) get everyone drinking so its more of a party atmosphere.
Increases the need for bigger practice areas, bigger cart staging areas, bigger cart fleets as no one in today’s world can be expected to walk 200 let alone 1200 yards to their hole (especially the caddies), more showers, more staff, more times blocked off for late day shotgun starts.
Mike,
I've got to think there would have been/still is a fair amount of demand too.
For large groups, can't imagine doing it otherwise where most importantly everyone finishes at the same time to hang out in the dining area for a few drinks, presentations, and networking for their corporate write-offs. Could you imagine teeing off first and having to wait around for 2,3, or 4 hours for everyone else to finish?
What I am saying is there are widespread hidden cost to shotgun starts and the game would be better off with out them including corporate and charity outings.
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We played in a member event at Golspie in September, and to gave everyone finish together they shotgunned it.
As we were getting going I asked another guy where he was starting and he replied, "On 10, I better get going."
Off he went on foot.
It's a mile to that tee.