Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: mike_malone on July 06, 2023, 06:15:30 PM
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So many commentators say the same thing all the time. I wonder about this one.
Please explain.
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Yes, it is true. From this item.
https://www.liveabout.com/poa-annua-on-golf-courses-1560956 (https://www.liveabout.com/poa-annua-on-golf-courses-1560956)
"Poa annua has another quality that some golfers don't appreciate: Different strains of poa annua can grow at different rates during the sunny part of each day. And poa is a very fast-growing grass, particularly when compared with many other types of golf course turfgrasses.
Poa annua, soaking in sunlight, grows to a noticeable degree during the course of a golf tournament day. Which is to say, golfers who play on poa annua greens in the early morning and golfers who play on them in the late afternoon may encounter subtly different putting properties.
That means that in the late afternoon, after a day of growing time, a poa annua green might be less smooth — bumpier — than it was throughout earlier parts of the day."
More here: https://golf.com/lifestyle/poa-annua-grass-golfers-love-to-hate/
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:D
Absolutely for all the reasons David sent above. When its healthy though few surfaces putt as pure. morning ...noon ..or late in the day...check out Oakmont >>>perhaps the best stand of poa ever
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While it may be true, I grew up on poa annua greens and love them.
One of the announcers at Pebble Beach today (Kay Cockerill?) echoed my sentiments. Strike it solid and let gravity do the rest.
Poa separates those who roll it from those who don't.
Playing on perfect greens allows me to get sloppy.
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Won't be long before the 'fair golf' pampered folks and the snowflake brigade will be wanting greens cut every couple of hours, maybe every few minutes.
atb
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Won't be long before the 'fair golf' pampered folks and the snowflake brigade will be wanting greens cut every couple of hours, maybe every few minutes.
atb
My favorite, the afternoon roll before the start of afternoon play during a competition, usually a men’s member guest.
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They also call it "po anna"? WTAF.
How do you get po anna from poa annua?
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"They also call it "po anna"? WTAF. How do you get po anna from poa annua?"
Wayne -
It's just slang. Here in the SF Bay Area, where poa is just about everywhere, you often hear it called "po anna" or even "poanna." Not a big deal.
DT
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"They also call it "po anna"? WTAF. How do you get po anna from poa annua?"
Wayne -
It's just slang. Here in the SF Bay Area, where poa is just about everywhere, you often hear it called "po anna" or even "poanna." Not a big deal.
That's because they are just propagating the pronunciation error that they hear "on the TV".
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Wayne -
My guess it was referred to as "poanna" locally years before it was ever talked about on TV. But I have only lived out here for 50 years, so I may be mistaken. :)
DT
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That's because they are just propagating the pronunciation error that they hear "on the TV".
Oh, are we doing per- (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription) prescriptivism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription) vs descriptivism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description)? This is a fun one. Hopefully* the prescriptivists win this time.
*this is an adverb joke
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That's because they are just propagating the pronunciation error that they hear "on the TV".
Oh, are we doing perscriptivism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription) vs descriptivism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description)? This is a fun one. Hopefully* the perscriptivists win this time.
*this is an adverb joke
Well, if we were going to be that thing, we'd likely be prescriptive, but those darned prescriptive grammarians would probably fit in around here, what with all the Luddites in residence.
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Well, if we were going to be that thing, we'd likely be prescriptive, but those darned prescriptive grammarians would probably fit in around here, what with all the Luddites in residence.
Ha! Not my worst typo, but I probably switch the pre- vs per- prefix in my head because the dialect I grew up with pronounces the thing you pick up at the pharmacy as a "per"-sciption
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Ha! Not my worst typo, but I probably switch the pre- vs per- prefix in my head because the dialect I grew up with pronounces the thing you pick up at the pharmacy as a "per"-sciption
Where I'm from they pronounce Bemidji, "Bermidji."
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Ha! Not my worst typo, but I probably switch the pre- vs per- prefix in my head because the dialect I grew up with pronounces the thing you pick up at the pharmacy as a "per"-sciption
Where I'm from they pronounce Bemidji, "Bermidji."
Yep, and my extended family from Nebraska say "Warshington" instead of Washington.
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Ha! Not my worst typo, but I probably switch the pre- vs per- prefix in my head because the dialect I grew up with pronounces the thing you pick up at the pharmacy as a "per"-sciption
Where I'm from they pronounce Bemidji, "Bermidji."
Are you from Bemidji?
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Ha! Not my worst typo, but I probably switch the pre- vs per- prefix in my head because the dialect I grew up with pronounces the thing you pick up at the pharmacy as a "per"-sciption
Where I'm from they pronounce Bemidji, "Bermidji."
Yep, and my extended family from Nebraska say "Warshington" instead of Washington.
You don’t have to go to Nebraska to hear Warshington. Lots of people that live in the state of Washington say it that way. ;D
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Are you from Bemidji?
Thief River Falls from age 7 to about 25
Went to U of M and Bemidji State however. Played Bemidji T&C a lot in the early 70s.
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Are you from Bemidji?
Thief River Falls from age 7 to about 25
Went to U of M and Bemidji State however. Played Bemidji T&C a lot in the early 70s.
So you were from way up north. I grew up north of Brainerd in Breezy Point. I liked Bemidji T&C, there may have been a renovation that some didn’t like, but I can’t remember.
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So you were from way up north. I grew up north of Brainerd in Breezy Point. I liked Bemidji T&C, there may have been a renovation that some didn’t like, but I can’t remember.
That was probably Joel Goldstrand I do think his work was probably a step in the wrong direction. I only played it once but was unimpressed.
Kevin Norby did a lot of work more recently and I think it was big improvement. Full disclosure, I was helping Norby with some PR at the time he did it.
His business model was/is interesting. He was trying to focus on ways to make courses more successful in their market.
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So you were from way up north. I grew up north of Brainerd in Breezy Point. I liked Bemidji T&C, there may have been a renovation that some didn’t like, but I can’t remember.
That was probably Joel Goldstrand I do think his work was probably a step in the wrong direction. I only played it once but was unimpressed.
Kevin Norby did a lot of work more recently and I think it was big improvement. Full disclosure, I was helping Norby with some PR at the time he did it.
His business model was/is interesting. He was trying to focus on ways to make courses more successful in their market.
Yes, it was the Goldstrand changes that the Bemidji boys team golfers I played with lamented. That was mid/late 90s. I can’t remember it well, but when I played in the 2010s I liked it. I don’t know if Norby had been there by then or not.
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Poa is more difficult the longer it gets, very grainy
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Poa is more difficult the longer it gets, very grainy
I live in upstate NY. The”real”upstate not Westchester….been playing for 50 years on Poa and I never thought of them as grainy. It grows quicker than bent so they can get bumpy in the afternoon. I think growth regulator helps that. The real problem is the seed heads. Our super sprays to prevent them but a lot of clubs don’t.
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I insist :D that Allisen Corpuz take a drug test. She one putted ten times on Sunday on poa annua greens, under pressure.
For all the pronuncian and spelling geeks, you are all just a poboy.
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I think we can all agree that P. annua greens produce a nice playing surface for golf. The downfall is the cost to produce that surface. Poa requires exponentially more inputs (water, fertilizer, PGR's etc etc etc) to maintain acceptability than any other turfgrass species. If you include how the planet average daily temps are climbing, P. annua only seems to be a viable option in a few areas of North America and quite often a poor choice given the options of improved genetics. It makes me sad and bit crazy to hear about clubs doing these complete greens renovations and actually picking up the P. annua sod and putting it back down on new rootzone. I do not understand this line of thinking. As everyone is aware, I am big on long-term viability and sustainability of the game. P. annua is not part of that equation, unless monumental breeding efforts are put forth...which they currently are not...and for good reason.
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I think we can all agree that P. annua greens produce a nice playing surface for golf. The downfall is the cost to produce that surface. Poa requires exponentially more inputs (water, fertilizer, PGR's etc etc etc) to maintain acceptability than any other turfgrass species. If you include how the planet average daily temps are climbing, P. annua only seems to be a viable option in a few areas of North America and quite often a poor choice given the options of improved genetics. It makes me sad and bit crazy to hear about clubs doing these complete greens renovations and actually picking up the P. annua sod and putting it back down on new rootzone. I do not understand this line of thinking. As everyone is aware, I am big on long-term viability and sustainability of the game. P. annua is not part of that equation, unless monumental breeding efforts are put forth...which they currently are not...and for good reason.
Sadly this is true. I grew up playing on Poa (Annua) at some cooler coastal courses in SoCal. It really is a wonderful playing surface for golf. It no doubt can get bumpy late in the day, but it is also not for the weak-minded golfer. I credit some of my good putting skills to dusk 9's at Los Verdes after a full tee sheet. If you can make putts there you can make them anywhere.
Brentwood, Hillcrest, LACC, Rolling Hills, and other LA clubs have moved to bent grass greens for the reason John states. And there is a not-so-secret conversation happening now as to whether Wilshire will do the same. While they're magnificent greens and have been maintained well, it's clear that hotter summers have required more intensive maintenance and costs than they used to. From November to May they are just about perfect: firm, fast, flawless. In the summer they require more water and can play soft, though still true and challenging.
I'm torn - it'd be a shame to resurface 100 year old greens that are obviously still very good, but the drawbacks are obvious. I think poa is part of the character of these greens and how to navigate around them and I'm not sure bent would provide the same challenge or interest. We'll see how it goes and I'm happy to update here when I know more, but the writing may be on the wall if 2 clubs west (more coastal) than Wilshire have moved to bent, the case for continuing with Poa is not as strong as my bias wants it to be.
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I think we can all agree that P. annua greens produce a nice playing surface for golf. The downfall is the cost to produce that surface. Poa requires exponentially more inputs (water, fertilizer, PGR's etc etc etc) to maintain acceptability than any other turfgrass species. If you include how the planet average daily temps are climbing, P. annua only seems to be a viable option in a few areas of North America and quite often a poor choice given the options of improved genetics. It makes me sad and bit crazy to hear about clubs doing these complete greens renovations and actually picking up the P. annua sod and putting it back down on new rootzone. I do not understand this line of thinking. As everyone is aware, I am big on long-term viability and sustainability of the game. P. annua is not part of that equation, unless monumental breeding efforts are put forth...which they currently are not...and for good reason.
So what should a course like, say… Oakmont do?
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I think we can all agree that P. annua greens produce a nice playing surface for golf. The downfall is the cost to produce that surface. Poa requires exponentially more inputs (water, fertilizer, PGR's etc etc etc) to maintain acceptability than any other turfgrass species. If you include how the planet average daily temps are climbing, P. annua only seems to be a viable option in a few areas of North America and quite often a poor choice given the options of improved genetics. It makes me sad and bit crazy to hear about clubs doing these complete greens renovations and actually picking up the P. annua sod and putting it back down on new rootzone. I do not understand this line of thinking. As everyone is aware, I am big on long-term viability and sustainability of the game. P. annua is not part of that equation, unless monumental breeding efforts are put forth...which they currently are not...and for good reason.
So what should a course like, say… Oakmont do?
Get with the program and switch to and embrace sustainability. Just because one can, doesn't mean one should.
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I think we can all agree that P. annua greens produce a nice playing surface for golf. The downfall is the cost to produce that surface. Poa requires exponentially more inputs (water, fertilizer, PGR's etc etc etc) to maintain acceptability than any other turfgrass species. If you include how the planet average daily temps are climbing, P. annua only seems to be a viable option in a few areas of North America and quite often a poor choice given the options of improved genetics. It makes me sad and bit crazy to hear about clubs doing these complete greens renovations and actually picking up the P. annua sod and putting it back down on new rootzone. I do not understand this line of thinking. As everyone is aware, I am big on long-term viability and sustainability of the game. P. annua is not part of that equation, unless monumental breeding efforts are put forth...which they currently are not...and for good reason.
There can be other issues with P. annua in areas with cold climates as it dies after a few weeks under ice. About a decade ago in the Toronto area we had ice in February or so that didn't melt. That year almost all of the older clubs had a ton of problems with their greens as they were a mixture of bent and poa. Newer courses tended to not have as much poa so they were in better shape. My club had several temporary greens for the start of the season and it was well into August until the greens were in decent shape. St. Georges decided to just accelerate a plan to rip up and redo their greens.