Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on May 24, 2023, 12:54:01 PM
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I plan to go next year. Where would you go if you had two weeks?
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Calling Charles Lund! He is our resident expert on golf in Asia.
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If you're planning a holiday, I think the obvious choices are Thailand and Vietnam. Japan for sure if you can get on the key courses, but without some very good contacts, I'd say the first two are the best bet. I haven't been to Vietnam, but would like to -- a lot of the coastline is sandy, and some of the courses look very interesting. I enjoyed South Korea, but I was on a very big ticket press trip -- you'd need to be extremely well connected to have a similar trip.
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If you plan to staying in one place, I'd look at: Pattaya Thailand, Phuket Thailand, Danang Vietnam or Hainan Island China. Don't bother trying to hire a car, transport can be easily arranged through the concierge's brother or cousin!
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If you aren't accustomed to the heat and humidity, golf in the more equatorial places in Asia can be difficult. I did a trip to Singapore 2 years ago, the golf was not overly memorable, the 38 degree (100F) and 90% humidity will live long.
When I lived in Hong Kong, the place I wanted to go was Hainan Island but didn't get there.
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I played in Korea - they have some pretty good places if you want to spend for it. Overall, Hainan would be one of the best options for weather and places to play.
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How difficult are Japanese courses to access? I might have some contacts I could access.
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Several years back I played Nirwana Bali which was a very good Greg Norman/Bob Harrison course and on some global top 100 lists. But it was ripped up a few years ago by Trump and a local partner and now the project appears to have stalled.
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Is it really 20+ years ago, since I was getting stick on here for posting about golfing in Thailand, and other parts of SE Asia?
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I have to say arranging a tee time as a single is an absolute bitch in Japan. The one hour lunch in between nines has always been crazy to me. As a gaijin the biggest obstacle is that there is not much in the way of English speaking accommodation. Unless you have a bilingual Japanese friend (that golfs) to help guide you it's a rough go.
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How difficult are Japanese courses to access? I might have some contacts I could access.
Kawana is a great golf course and its a resort - they make it very easy. But Tokyo Golf Club and Hirono are next to impossible unless you are very connected. You dont see many westerners at lunch there!
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I've spent a lot of time in the past ten plus years in Asia and played golf in many places.
The main thing to decide is if you are traveling to Asia to visit a country and partake of a cultural experience or you are going on a golf trip with the other concern less important. Two weeks is a short trip.
Here are places I have played golf, with some comments.
Japan - am currently on my 11th trip, played golf on three trips, hard to access tee times and logistically difficult for golf. My interest in landscaping and gardening takes precedence over golf.
Hainan Island - spent a few days at Mission Hills in 2012, Curley-Schmidt built 12 courses, two very good, other two I played were decent, China has no real golf culture is main drawback.
Singspore - has some good golf courses, small city state with much non-golf ambiance, direct flights on Singapore Air, connects to Thailand and Vietnam, have been there four times, golf once.
Hong Kong - have stopped over for varying lengths of time on 20 occasions, playing Clearwater Bay and Discovery Bay quite a bit, logistically difficult, expensive taxis, I used MTR and commuter ferry, good stopover in past on way to Thailand and VN. Was there during student protests in 2019, ambivalent about going back.
Thailand - have been there three times, Hua Hin, Chiang Mai, and Pattaya have best golf, Golf Asian is full service golf travel, don't try do it yourself
Vietnam - golf trip to Danang in 2016, smaller city with good cultural experience, Golf Asian can arrange golf, shuttles, day trips with driver as tour guide to Hue, My Son, and Hoi An.
Charles Lund
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I plan to go next year. Where would you go if you had two weeks?
I lived in Korea, have spent time in Japan and had a cousin who lived in Hong Kong (had a membership with work). For a first time trip to Asia I would recommend Japan, but the trip would primarily be for things other than golf. Experience the food, the temples and the overall culture. You could play a few resort courses (The Prince chain of hotels has multiple courses associated with their hotels, in addition to Kawana like Tom mentioned).
If you're looking for a trip that is all about golf, I'd say don't fly all the way to Asia.
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Pick your seasonal timing.
atb
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I basically agree with Joe about Japan. In two weeks, you can have a great non-golf experience, use the bullet trains to get between cities like Tokyo, Kyoto, Hiroshima, and Kanazawa and develop an appreciation of a country that thrives on polite, punctual, precise, patient, and persistent as cultural values. There is respect for antiquity and preservation of what is old.
I played two public golf courses near Mount Fuji on my first trip. The pro ran a website about golf courses in Japan. Both courses were built on hilly sites and had Mount Fuji views. They were aesthetically nice in the sense that pine trees were cared for in the traditional meticulous way trees are managed. The men I was paired up with were enjoyable to play golf but language barriers minimized interactions. I decided on that trip that golf interfered with time available to do other things in Japan.
In 2017, I had a trip lined up for Sakura season and a few months earlier I met a Japanese man playing golf in Hong Kong. When I told him about my plans to visit Japan, he offered to arrange a game with one of his friends. It turned out his friend lived near Kyoto where I was going and was a member at Hirono. My friend took a photo of my clubs and sent it to his friend. I play with Tileist AP2 710s with Project X 5.0 shafts. I met at Shin Kobe Station and was driven to Hirono. The irons in the set were a slightly newer Titleist model with Project X 5.0 shafts.
About a year later, the man who was a Hirono member visited Australia when I was there. I hosted him at the club in Australia where I am an overseas member. I was returning to Japan again in spring to visit gardens and I met up in Tokyo and played Tokyo Golf Club and Kazumigseki on the Fazio design where the Olympics was hosted. I also played Tokyo Golf Club while the Hanse renovation was underway.
I'm now on my 11th trip to Japan. It's one of my favorite places to visit. There are aspects of Japanese golf culture I respect and understand,, which is probably why I got to play in Tokyo on the 2018 visit.
I might play golf again in Japan, but I'm glad I have other priorities. If you end up with a backhanded invite to a couple of the highly regarded courses, I'd say decide for yourself and be prepared to follow practices like stopping after 9 holes for lunch. By the way, punctuality is valued and players are on the 10th tee at the allocated time.
If you choose Thailand or Vietnam, December, January, and February are the best months. This year I flew to Thailand in mid-January for two weeks and played four rounds in Pattaya, two in Hua Hin, and two in Bangkok. I doubt I would go back to Pattaya and Bangkok. Pattaya had a few good courses.
Charles Lund
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The Dalai course on Langkawi is a sporty little track, not a destination course but worth a play if you are on Langkawi, which is a lovely island with some great beaches and forest scenery, and some swanky resorts. Watch out for the monkeys getting into your golf cart and taking shiny objects.
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Tommy,
You might have already gotten the answer/s you are looking for. Your question is about as tough (probably tougher) as asking where would you play golf in the U.S. if you had two week? I have played a fair amount in Asia. There are lots of great courses and golf in general can vary drastically in many of the countries over there. It can be a great experience even if the course is not on some Top 100 list. Best to discuss this offline if interested. Text me.
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Mark,
Nice of you to offer help and encouragement.
Charles Lund
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If you are set on Japan, there are a few tour operators who can assist with coordinating your trip/getting tee times at some of the more sought after clubs.
Golf in Korea is a unique experience in itself, but can be fairly tough coordinating if you are only there for two weeks.
As others have mentioned, Thailand and Vietnam are hassle-free and do not require a solid rolodex to play.
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One round at Kawana in Japan for me. Fantastic experience that was easy to arrange. Place was pretty quiet at the time but it was 2012 and all of golf was pretty quiet then.
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I would look at the Philippines -- I used to play on work there and had a colleague that was a member and could get us on some places but judging by the number of Japanese and Koreans playing there was plenty of tourist golf going on. Wack Wack needs more exposure.
I played once in China and it was a great experience at a private club -- Yangtze Dunes outside Shanghai.
Just returned from Vietnam and wish I would have made a bigger effort to play while I was there -- I got beautiful weather. I found the driving to be much more 'normal' than some other places I've been -- wouldn't rent a car but was very comfortable as a passenger. Again many visiting Koreans being picked up at my hotel to go play golf.
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Coincidentally, I was in Asia last month again. Hadn't been since pre Covid so really missed going there.
I was just in Japan and Korea which are my favorite golf places to go in Asia.
As people have said, Japan is pretty much about having very good connections/friends there. Japan in general is always worth a visit. Kawana is accessible but generally the only course in the World Top 100 that get s a 100% pass in terms of maintenance. Lot's to love there in terms of architecture and scary how good that place could be if it were in the right hands. Japan is an amazing place and culture. I'd like to visit Abiko and Kobe Golf Club someday but always go to the same courses. I'm not complaining because I love Japan's top courses. Hirono now has catapulted into my personal World Top 30. Another Turnberry-esque renovation by Martin Ebert.
If money was no object I'd simply go to Southcape Owners Club and spend two weeks there. One of my favorite resorts anywhere and I love Kyle Philips work there. His best in my mind.
There is one course worth seeing on Hainan Island and it's impossible to see. That's Coore & Crenshaw's Shanqin Bay and with a new young owner it shouldn't be ignored any longer - after a few years falling out of the eye of the US Magazines. It's still one of Coore & Crenshaws best designs and routings and they have now fixed the hole that was affected by government land issues.
The hotbed of golf and where I think you should go for at least half of your time is Vietnam. To be fair, if your goal is to study courses with architectural merit, you should go to the UK or Ireland. Thailand as others have mentioned is where you could spend the other half of your time but unless you know how to activate a deep network the courses to visit are not really accessible.
In the end, much like a trip to the US from abroad, the best of what there is to see requires serious connections.
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Coincidentally, I was in Asia last month again. Hadn't been since pre Covid so really missed going there.
I was just in Japan and Korea which are my favorite golf places to go in Asia.
As people have said, Japan is pretty much about having very good connections/friends there. Japan in general is always worth a visit. Kawana is accessible but generally the only course in the World Top 100 that get s a 100% pass in terms of maintenance. Lot's to love there in terms of architecture and scary how good that place could be if it were in the right hands. Japan is an amazing place and culture. I'd like to visit Abiko and Kobe Golf Club someday but always go to the same courses. I'm not complaining because I love Japan's top courses. Hirono now has catapulted into my personal World Top 30. Another Turnberry-esque renovation by Martin Ebert.
If money was no object I'd simply go to Southcape Owners Club and spend two weeks there. One of my favorite resorts anywhere and I love Kyle Philips work there. His best in my mind.
There is one course worth seeing on Hainan Island and it's impossible to see. That's Coore & Crenshaw's Shanqin Bay and with a new young owner it shouldn't be ignored any longer - after a few years falling out of the eye of the US Magazines. It's still one of Coore & Crenshaws best designs and routings and they have now fixed the hole that was affected by government land issues.
The hotbed of golf and where I think you should go for at least half of your time is Vietnam. To be fair, if your goal is to study courses with architectural merit, you should go to the UK or Ireland. Thailand as others have mentioned is where you could spend the other half of your time but unless you know how to activate a deep network the courses to visit are not really accessible.
In the end, much like a trip to the US from abroad, the best of what there is to see requires serious connections.
Very well said. I was hoping you would weigh in. Thank you David.
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I suppose Türkiye is in Asia (just!).
Belek is absolutely phenomenal for decent golf, great food, fabulous accommodations.
Cheers,
F.
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I suppose Türkiye is in Asia (just!).
Belek is absolutely phenomenal for decent golf, great food, fabulous accommodations.
Cheers,
F.
I see Belek as a 'what might have been'. The ground is perfect for golf, but the way the destination was masterplanned, with individual resort hotels, each with one or two golf courses, and the fact that all the hotels are all-inclusive and really don't encourage people going off property, means it's less than ideal for a golfer who wants to play several different courses. The only way to get from one resort to the other is by cab (or rental car I suppose) and it's just not very easy. I wish whoever planned out the region had zoned in a town centre with restaurants and a marina.
The other thing is that, although the golf is mostly good to very good (I like Carya best) it lacks a true marquee course. Lykia Links should have been it, a perfect site of sand dunes next to a Mediterranean beach where sea turtles nest, but Perry Dye bulldozed the hell out of the property. It is possibly the worst architectural crime I have ever seen, a nine or ten out of ten property and at best a four or five out of ten course.
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I suppose Türkiye is in Asia (just!).
Belek is absolutely phenomenal for decent golf, great food, fabulous accommodations.
Cheers,
F.
I see Belek as a 'what might have been'. The ground is perfect for golf, but the way the destination was masterplanned, with individual resort hotels, each with one or two golf courses, and the fact that all the hotels are all-inclusive and really don't encourage people going off property, means it's less than ideal for a golfer who wants to play several different courses. The only way to get from one resort to the other is by cab (or rental car I suppose) and it's just not very easy. I wish whoever planned out the region had zoned in a town centre with restaurants and a marina.
The other thing is that, although the golf is mostly good to very good (I like Carya best) it lacks a true marquee course. Lykia Links should have been it, a perfect site of sand dunes next to a Mediterranean beach where sea turtles nest, but Perry Dye bulldozed the hell out of the property. It is possibly the worst architectural crime I have ever seen, a nine or ten out of ten property and at best a four or five out of ten course.
Belek is one of the places I plan to visit, but I am a bit wary as I heard there were bunches of snakes. I have an abnormal fear of them.
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I suppose Türkiye is in Asia (just!).
Belek is absolutely phenomenal for decent golf, great food, fabulous accommodations.
Cheers,
F.
I see Belek as a 'what might have been'. The ground is perfect for golf, but the way the destination was masterplanned, with individual resort hotels, each with one or two golf courses, and the fact that all the hotels are all-inclusive and really don't encourage people going off property, means it's less than ideal for a golfer who wants to play several different courses. The only way to get from one resort to the other is by cab (or rental car I suppose) and it's just not very easy. I wish whoever planned out the region had zoned in a town centre with restaurants and a marina.
The other thing is that, although the golf is mostly good to very good (I like Carya best) it lacks a true marquee course. Lykia Links should have been it, a perfect site of sand dunes next to a Mediterranean beach where sea turtles nest, but Perry Dye bulldozed the hell out of the property. It is possibly the worst architectural crime I have ever seen, a nine or ten out of ten property and at best a four or five out of ten course.
Belek is one of the places I plan to visit, but I am a bit wary as I heard there were bunches of snakes. I have an abnormal fear of them.
I saw way more snakes in Florida and Nevada than Belek.
I also loved Carya. Our own Doc H design IIRC? Also the scene of our dear departed friend, Gordons mighty H-I-O at the 15th.
The staff at the hotels are outstanding. They arranged transport to all the other courses, they advised on other trips, they even arranged a trophy for Gordons H-I-O completely free of charge.
Got to meet Benjamin Lovett out there, but hes moved on since.
Highly recommended,
F.
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I suppose Türkiye is in Asia (just!).
Belek is absolutely phenomenal for decent golf, great food, fabulous accommodations.
Cheers,
F.
I see Belek as a 'what might have been'. The ground is perfect for golf, but the way the destination was masterplanned, with individual resort hotels, each with one or two golf courses, and the fact that all the hotels are all-inclusive and really don't encourage people going off property, means it's less than ideal for a golfer who wants to play several different courses. The only way to get from one resort to the other is by cab (or rental car I suppose) and it's just not very easy. I wish whoever planned out the region had zoned in a town centre with restaurants and a marina.
The other thing is that, although the golf is mostly good to very good (I like Carya best) it lacks a true marquee course. Lykia Links should have been it, a perfect site of sand dunes next to a Mediterranean beach where sea turtles nest, but Perry Dye bulldozed the hell out of the property. It is possibly the worst architectural crime I have ever seen, a nine or ten out of ten property and at best a four or five out of ten course.
Belek is one of the places I plan to visit, but I am a bit wary as I heard there were bunches of snakes. I have an abnormal fear of them.
I saw way more snakes in Florida and Nevada than Belek.
I also loved Carya. Our own Doc H design IIRC? Also the scene of our dear departed friend, Gordons mighty H-I-O at the 15th.
The staff at the hotels are outstanding. They arranged transport to all the other courses, they advised on other trips, they even arranged a trophy for Gordons H-I-O completely free of charge.
Got to meet Benjamin Lovett out there, but hes moved on since.
Highly recommended,
F.
No, Carya is Tim Lobb (Philip Spogard was his associate on the project before he returned to Denmark). Ben Lovett is back in the UK now, at Ashridge.
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Early-onset rampant senility
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Early-onset rampant senility
Not that early.
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Early-onset rampant senility
Not that early.
OOOHHH!