Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jason Topp on May 23, 2023, 12:17:03 PM
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I am increadingly finding courses seeking a very clean look that eliminates benches, tee signs and ballwashers. It is nice to take a seat on a par three, have a drink of water and empty the rocks out of my shoes from the last visit to the desert, unmowed areas of a course or a bunker.
I am pro bench!
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Benches are a hallmark of a civilized society.
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When a course has 5-6 tees, which one(s) get a bench?
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When a course has 5-6 tees, which one(s) get a bench?
Courses with 5-6 tees are not hallmarks of a civilized society. ;)
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When a course has 5-6 tees, which one(s) get a bench?
Is there a reason all of them couldn't have a bench?
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When a course has 5-6 tees, which one(s) get a bench?
My home course has 4 tee markers and usually 3-4 tees per hole, when I was green chairman we capped the number of benches to 18, and tried to give every tee a bench every 3-4 holes.
Tyler
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A pro-bench mensch!
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Benches might imply mostly CARTS, since the players would have their bench with them.
True walkers really want to sit down every now and them, and the next tee is the perfect place.
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Benches encourage slow play. Be gone, relaxation stations!
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I respectfully dissent. To me, benches mean waiting. I prefer not waiting. Less is more.
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Sometimes waiting is inevitable, respectfully.
It's the thought that counts.
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If you really need a bench use a cart or the soft grass. 8)
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If it’s good enough for the Eden hole…
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52919681582_14aa434b34_z.jpg)
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I respectfully dissent. To me, benches mean waiting. I prefer not waiting. Less is more.
That's like saying "I don't like being in car crashes, therefore I'm against airbags". When you need a bench, it's nice to have it there.
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Benches might imply mostly CARTS, since the players would have their bench with them.
True walkers really want to sit down every now and them, and the next tee is the perfect place.
+1
I found the bench at Mid Pines 16 tee very well placed.
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Martin Bonnar for the win! ;D
btw.. can you imagine 5 or 6 tees on that hole?
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When a course has 5-6 tees, which one(s) get a bench?
90% of the play will be from one or two of those tees. Put the bench there. Those playing forward can walk forward while the green is clearing, those who play further back have earned their punishment.
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If you really need a bench use a cart or the soft grass. 8)
I have enough problems keeping the debris off my pants as it is. Walking is the one way for me to effectively get a reasonable amount of activity on my apple watch which keeps track of these things.
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Seems like long par 3s and short par 5s are the best places for em, given the usual wait. And being on your feet for 4+ hours straight is one thing at 30 and an entirely different thing at 50+
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The benches at Baltusrol Lower were removed after the last renovation, along with garbage cans, to get a "cleaner look." Folks miss them, especially the benches.
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Love the bench. Bring it back!
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Jason:
This is an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.
Likewise, my client at Stonewall, Jack May, took me aside at the opening of the North course and said, "I'm going to plant a few shade trees near the tees on some of these holes. When you get older, you'll appreciate the shade." He was right. I have since pointed out to several clients that we need to do something for shade over the course of 18 holes.
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I like the bench behind the first tee at Bethpage Black. Sit around and watch others hit while waiting for your time to come.
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Priced benches about 10 years ago and there were no cheap options unless you built 'em yourself. In the summertime they are better with shade trees. Also nice if they are after a climbed hill. A minor victory present. Best of those is at Pacific Dunes 14.
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Yale’s benches have not reappeared since being removed during Covid. I think it’s a still a consideration at a number of clubs along with the “clutter” factor.
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When Troon was running Old Works they eliminated the benches and claimed it knocked 30 minutes off a round of golf.
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When Troon was running Old Works they eliminated the benches and claimed it knocked 30 minutes off a round of golf.
Standing around on one of the par 3s the other week, I asked one of the boys what happened to the benches, he said "they were removed, the board said that it added to round times".
I snorted and said BS, at least I now have somewhere to find the source.
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Generally against clutter such as benches, but in the right spots with a good view, a few on a course are ok.
Ciao
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Generally against clutter such as benches, but in the right spots with a good view, a few on a course are ok.
Ciao
Sean has the answer.
I dislike course furniture and would generally be against benches. But if I can recommend a spot where the bench is relatively hidden from general view, maybe three times a round on holes where there can be waiting, then I see the advantages.
The bench at The Eden is an abomination. But people wait there so it makes sense. Plus it’s St.Andrews. It’s more like a statement of “how great is this?”
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The occasional old railway sleeper laid across a couple of uprights is fine at the top of a high tee.
Formal manmade slatted or customised benches, ugg. And if they are wood as most are they'll likely have to be taken into the sheds in the winter and varnished etc which is yet more work for the greenkeeping crew.
atb
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Jason:
This is an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.
Likewise, my client at Stonewall, Jack May, took me aside at the opening of the North course and said, "I'm going to plant a few shade trees near the tees on some of these holes. When you get older, you'll appreciate the shade." He was right. I have since pointed out to several clients that we need to do something for shade over the course of 18 holes.
Shade is a great addition to a bench. I find myself missing the tree-lined days merely for the ocassional relief from the sun. Tee areas are a great place to do it as long as sun hits the teeing ground.
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An old thread on benches. I am too lazy to repost pictures.https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67647.0.html
Not sure how anyone could play a course with carts and cart paths and then find benches visually objectionable.
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An old thread on benches. I am too lazy to repost pictures.https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67647.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67647.0.html)
Not sure how anyone could play a course with carts and cart paths and then find benches visually objectionable.
Thanks John! Who knew that a thread about benches could expand my vocabulary. I learned the word "Ovine."
John's thread has some terrific pictures - highly recommended.
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I played a couple of hilly courses that only allowed walking with a caddie. An occasional bench would have been nice. I find it difficult to believe that a few benches on the course add 30 minutes to a round.
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Not to get this topic off course, but shouldn't the same question be asked about ballwashers? I know many courses have eliminated them as clutter.
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"Not to get this topic off course, but shouldn't the same question be asked about ballwashers? I know many courses have eliminated them as clutter."
While I don't consider myself "pro-clutter," I have a hard time understanding the anti-clutter sentiment regarding benches, ball washers and trash baskets.
Some times golf is played under very hot & humid conditions. What is wrong with having a shade tree and a bench to take a breather every 4 or 5 holes? Some times golf is played when the turf is soft/damp/muddy. What is wrong with having a ball washer every 2nd or 3rd hole?
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Not to get this topic off course, but shouldn't the same question be asked about ballwashers? I know many courses have eliminated them as clutter.
I am not pro ballwasher but do not oppose them. One needs to pick his battles.
While a good wash in a well-maintained ballwasher is a pleasure, many people will have done any necessary cleaning on the prior green rendering them redundant. I have no problem with eliminating ballwashers in the name of eliminating clutter.
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Its hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
I know a few times we wanted to take a break and just enjoy the day. So we found a bench and let the group behind us play thru, it was relaxing and the group behind usually appreciates it. Everyone wins!
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When I first started playing golf on a little nine-hole farmland course back in 1971 I viewed these little man-made accouterments such as benches, ball-washers, tee markers, and even flagsticks not as clutter but more as little thoughtful, helpful guide posts to help the traveler on his journey, even proviidng rest and respite as needed.
We've all seen it overdone, sometimes atrociously so, but let's not throw out the benches with the (artificial) bluewater.
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Memorial benches (or trees, or water fountains, etc.) have real staying power. Good luck putting away the memory of Uncle Ralph.
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Not to get this topic off course, but shouldn't the same question be asked about ballwashers? I know many courses have eliminated them as clutter.
I am not pro ballwasher but do not oppose them. One needs to pick his battles.
While a good wash in a well-maintained ballwasher is a pleasure, many people will have done any necessary cleaning on the prior green rendering them redundant. I have no problem with eliminating ballwashers in the name of eliminating clutter.
I'm certainly not anti-bench or anti-ball washer, but I can see the other side of the argument. I think design really has a lot to do with it. There aren't any companies that are making custom ball-washers that suit the aesthetic of the course. I think a course willing to make their own custom tee markers ought to consider adding the same thought to ball washers and benches.
I also think that a lot of the design problems have to do with the ex ante approach to golf course development, that is to say, the developers just put benches where they might think they are needed before players actually display a need for them (developing a golf course in an a posteriori fashion would be worthy of it's own thread). Thus, benches are often placed in inappropriate areas, even if they ought to be usable (much like how desire paths pop up next to slightly inefficient sidewalks), they won't be, and they will seem like clutter.
If designers put cameras out and watch where players stand at wait at the tees after a year of play, then place benches where folks tend to mill about, they'll likely find benches well-used, even if they may seem slightly out-of-place when viewed in a photograph.
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
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Benches might imply mostly CARTS, since the players would have their bench with them.
True walkers really want to sit down every now and them, and the next tee is the perfect place.
Jack Nicklaus said you should never sit down while playing. Now that I’m old, I agree as I’m stiffer when I get up. Dornoch has benches at a number of holes, but the only one I’m ever tempted by is the one half way up the hill from 6 to 7. ;)
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Is there a scarlet letter for the seat attachment on a clicgear?
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I like benches and don't get any argument about "man made" visuals or so-called artificial impediments to a round.
Flagsticks are fiberglass, flags and your bags are nylon, clubs are metal/graphite/rubber, you've got towels and balls and drinks so really what the heck are we worried about a bench for?
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Its hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
I know a few times we wanted to take a break and just enjoy the day. So we found a bench and let the group behind us play thru, it was relaxing and the group behind usually appreciates it. Everyone wins!
I must say, that in thousands of rounds of golf, it never occured to me to sit down with my group like that.
I can't fathom it.
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
Kalen just slowed the entire course by 8 minutes by sitting down to let the next group go through.
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
It's funny to be called a hipster 😎. Anyone who has met me would know otherwise.
Ciao
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
It's funny to be called a hipster 😎. Anyone who has met me would know otherwise.
Ciao
I've seen your little pointy beard...
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
It's funny to be called a hipster 😎. Anyone who has met me would know otherwise.
Ciao
Sean,
I would attest to the fact that you ain’t no hipster. Although you could be a GCA equivalent.
Which would best define a GCA hipster:
- Someone who champions the alternative and obscure?
OR
- Someone who champions the touch-points of the Doak / Coore / Hanse design era?
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
It's funny to be called a hipster 😎. Anyone who has met me would know otherwise.
Ciao
Sean,
I would attest to the fact that you ain’t no hipster. Although you could be a GCA equivalent.
Which would best define a GCA hipster:
- Someone who champions the alternative and obscure?
OR
- Someone who champions the touch-points of the Doak / Coore / Hanse design era?
Guys-I didn’t mean to offend anyone with the hipster moniker. ;D Why not put that term aside and focus on the other word in the description which is “overreaction.” Is one of the touch-points of the Doak/Coore/Hanse design era no benches? I guess I was given a different manifesto. ;)
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
It's funny to be called a hipster . Anyone who has met me would know otherwise.
Ciao
Sean,
I would attest to the fact that you ain’t no hipster. Although you could be a GCA equivalent.
Which would best define a GCA hipster:
- Someone who champions the alternative and obscure?
OR
- Someone who champions the touch-points of the Doak / Coore / Hanse design era?
Guys-I didn’t mean to offend anyone with the hipster moniker. ;D Why not put that term aside and focus on the other word in the description which is “overreaction.” Is one of the touch-points of the Doak/Coore/Hanse design era no benches? I guess I was given a different manifesto. ;)
Ok, I have been known to over-react. However, in this case perhaps it is you that is guilty of over-reacting. I compromised with a few benches and was labelled an over-reacting hipster 😀.
Ciao
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It’s hard to understand the anti-bench sentiment.
Kalen- It’s just another hipster overreaction. The audacity of anyone wanting to sit down on a hot day while they wait to play their shot. ::) If properly placed how does it slow down the round?!
It's funny to be called a hipster . Anyone who has met me would know otherwise.
Ciao
Sean,
I would attest to the fact that you ain’t no hipster. Although you could be a GCA equivalent.
Which would best define a GCA hipster:
- Someone who champions the alternative and obscure?
OR
- Someone who champions the touch-points of the Doak / Coore / Hanse design era?
I lean toward cheap and characterful. Is that GCA hipster 😎?
Ciao
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I’m no DeSantis guy, but this anti bench, anti ball washer and anti trash can fad in the name of a clutterless campus is golf’s equivalent of “woke” run amuck. My club is an embarrassing offender. In addition to eliminating benches and ball washers, we’ve gone so far as to burying our trash cans like an old fashioned garbage receptacle where you have to step on the lid to open it up. Silly.
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I’m no DeSantis guy, but this anti bench, anti ball washer and anti trash can fad in the name of a clutterless campus is golf’s equivalent of “woke” run amuck. My club is an embarrassing offender. In addition to eliminating benches and ball washers, we’ve gone so far as to burying our trash cans like an old fashioned garbage receptacle where you have to step on the lid to open it up. Silly.
Jim-I played a different Philly Flynn than yours a few years ago and they had also taken “clutterless” to the next level. There was an outing the day before I played and the amount of temporary signage to direct players to the proper tee was far more “cluttered” than anything that would have been permanent. I concur with the trash receptacles as it’s beyond me how that could be more offensive than strewn garbage.
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I’m no DeSantis guy, but this anti bench, anti ball washer and anti trash can fad in the name of a clutterless campus is golf’s equivalent of “woke” run amuck. My club is an embarrassing offender. In addition to eliminating benches and ball washers, we’ve gone so far as to burying our trash cans like an old fashioned garbage receptacle where you have to step on the lid to open it up. Silly.
See, I think the course furniture era of ballwashers, tee bins, trash cans, benches, toilet blocks, halfway house and cart paths had run totally out of control. It was an era of needless excess.
Ciao
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I’m no DeSantis guy, but this anti bench, anti ball washer and anti trash can fad in the name of a clutterless campus is golf’s equivalent of “woke” run amuck. My club is an embarrassing offender. In addition to eliminating benches and ball washers, we’ve gone so far as to burying our trash cans like an old fashioned garbage receptacle where you have to step on the lid to open it up. Silly.
See, I think the course furniture era of ballwashers, tee bins, trash cans, benches, toilet blocks, halfway house and cart paths had run totally out of control. It was an era of needless excess.
Ciao
You would rather store that half eaten tuna salad sandwich that you couldn’t finish in your golf bag for two hours on a ninety degree day than throw it in a trash bin?
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I’m no DeSantis guy, but this anti bench, anti ball washer and anti trash can fad in the name of a clutterless campus is golf’s equivalent of “woke” run amuck. My club is an embarrassing offender. In addition to eliminating benches and ball washers, we’ve gone so far as to burying our trash cans like an old fashioned garbage receptacle where you have to step on the lid to open it up. Silly.
Woke? We're over hear talking about benches and somehow "woke" and "hipster" make their way into the conversation. Goodness.
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I’m no DeSantis guy, but this anti bench, anti ball washer and anti trash can fad in the name of a clutterless campus is golf’s equivalent of “woke” run amuck. My club is an embarrassing offender. In addition to eliminating benches and ball washers, we’ve gone so far as to burying our trash cans like an old fashioned garbage receptacle where you have to step on the lid to open it up. Silly.
See, I think the course furniture era of ballwashers, tee bins, trash cans, benches, toilet blocks, halfway house and cart paths had run totally out of control. It was an era of needless excess.
Ciao
You would rather store that half eaten tuna salad sandwich that you couldn’t finish in your golf bag for two hours on a ninety degree day than throw it in a trash bin?
I would rather not eat tuna. Honestly, what is up? Now you need stinky food on the course? Anything else you must have?
Ciao
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Completely agreed with Cal, with woke and hipster references, this thread has gone off the rails a bit ;)
In response to the "slowing things down by letting a group play thru", well that may be the case in normal conditions, but when the course is already grinding to a 5 hour Sunday round, and you're already waiting on every tee, its not hurting anything to chill for a hole and avoid getting frustrated...and the group behind will in fact appreciate it. I mean golf is supposed to be enjoyable right?
P.S. I think there is another plausible reason why benches, bins, and ball washers have been removed...because they can all be found on a golf cart. Just saying..
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I’m no DeSantis guy, but this anti bench, anti ball washer and anti trash can fad in the name of a clutterless campus is golf’s equivalent of “woke” run amuck. My club is an embarrassing offender. In addition to eliminating benches and ball washers, we’ve gone so far as to burying our trash cans like an old fashioned garbage receptacle where you have to step on the lid to open it up. Silly.
See, I think the course furniture era of ballwashers, tee bins, trash cans, benches, toilet blocks, halfway house and cart paths had run totally out of control. It was an era of needless excess.
Ciao
You would rather store that half eaten tuna salad sandwich that you couldn’t finish in your golf bag for two hours on a ninety degree day than throw it in a trash bin?
I would rather not eat tuna. Honestly, what is up? Now you need stinky food on the course? Anything else you must have?
Ciao
You missed the point. You also took the conversation from benches to trash cans and other items. I’m just at a loss how either could be offensive to anyone. I’ll let it go. ;D
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I'm admittedly "woke", whatever that it but it sounds to me like someone that is open to considerate ways of thinking about others but wish I could be "hipster".
On the other hand, Kyle Harris told me my golf shoes are "hipster", so I have that going for me.
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Benches are a hallmark of a civilized society.
Or maybe when golf was a leisurely pastime?
Are aesthetics and pace of play the major reasons for their demise?
I've used them and bypassed them. Not gonna begrudge anyone for doing likewise.
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Benches might imply mostly CARTS, since the players would have their bench with them.
True walkers really want to sit down every now and them, and the next tee is the perfect place.
Jack Nicklaus said you should never sit down while playing. Now that I’m old, I agree as I’m stiffer when I get up. Dornoch has benches at a number of holes, but the only one I’m ever tempted by is the one half way up the hill from 6 to 7. ;)
John - I understand that sentiment. My legs bark back after I eat or have a diet coke post round. Limited sitting does not seem to be a problem.
The photo evidence suggests Jack enjoyed a bench at least once:
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/jack-nicklaus-sits-on-a-pine-bench-with-don-pooley-during-news-photo/87933410
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I did not see "woke" and "hipster" becoming a part of this discussion but important issues generate that sort of passion!
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A famous Nicklaus Trevino incident involving what looks to be a walking stick - basically a portable bench
https://youtu.be/1cby9hUEVJI
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Geez Louise, I wouldn't say I'm "anti-bench," and certainly not woke or hipster. No strong feelings, but when I see benches at every tee, I get the impression that it's expected and accepted that golfers will be waiting there more than occasionally. If so, might be more considerate to address the cause for delay.
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About 15 years ago we eliminated hole signs on the tees and ball washers, although for special events with mostly players who are not members we'll use temporary cardboard tee signs since our hole sequence isn't obvious. We have a few benches, on four holes, maybe. We tried in-ground trash cans -- didn't work. Now we have trash receptacles built into water stations, and we also have a couple of boxes for sand bottle storage. I'm fine with all of this. Minimal clutter, but what we have is positive. None of this is earthshaking stuff.
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The clutterless mode may be the result of exorbitant prices for benches, ball washers, etc. when you have to buy enough to outfit an entire course. Check out the catalogs.
Pretty sure most of the embedded trash cans have been in environments where scavengers are apt to scatter our debris.
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I've seen the exorbitant cost of benches mentioned more than once. What's the deal there? Are they special benches only for golf? How much are they?
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$500-$800 per bench.
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$500-$800 per bench.
They can't go to the garden center and buy one for less?
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Courses known for their needless excess... benches, ball washers, trash baskets and half-way houses ;D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52201187982_33b2693377_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nwQJws)
Royal Dornoch #17 green viewed from #18 tee (https://flic.kr/p/2nwQJws)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/2842/9154480541_b5cbd6e1ed_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/eWX78p)
Sleepy Hollow #5 (https://flic.kr/p/eWX78p)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52926211580_90863952a2_n.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/golfcoursepix/9096y5Bo5Y)
Royal Dornoch half way house (https://www.flickr.com/gp/golfcoursepix/9096y5Bo5Y)
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Shameful Stewart. Consider me aghast.
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Some word clutter here, trash receptacle, trash bin, trash cans, garbage receptacle, waste paper basket*.............it's just a bin......perhaps an upgrade to receptacle is appropriate if the bin "location" is within the immediate vicinity of a comfort stop.
* credit to Michael McIntyre https://youtu.be/UCo0hSFAWOc (https://youtu.be/UCo0hSFAWOc)
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About 15 years ago we eliminated hole signs on the tees and ball washers, although for special events with mostly players who are not members we'll use temporary cardboard tee signs since our hole sequence isn't obvious. We have a few benches, on four holes, maybe. We tried in-ground trash cans -- didn't work. Now we have trash receptacles built into water stations, and we also have a couple of boxes for sand bottle storage. I'm fine with all of this. Minimal clutter, but what we have is positive. None of this is earthshaking stuff.
This is the way golf clubs should think about stuff. Aim for minimal clutter whilst recognising there has to be a practical level of some:
- Hide benches wherever possible and use low lying ones / bespoke ones in keeping with the landscape.
- Remove unnecessary tee signage (I am in the process of doing this at one course I am involved with. I.e. changing all tee-top markets to flush with the ground and only having one guiding hole number facing outwards to those who approach). Use organic materials.
- Double-up uses where possible for things like trash bins, water stations etc…. Hide slightly off a tee, beside a cloaking gorse bush, dune, tree etc…
Many designers won’t consider this important. I see it as a natural extension to hiding access / egress cart paths and choosing the right materials for same.
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What is more visually jarring - benches or fairway stripes?
https://twitter.com/AndyEwence/status/1661421284708712473/photo/4
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Foursomes benches can be very handy, 8th and 12th at Deal and 6th and 7th at Sandwich spring to mind.
I was happy for a bench as we waited 45 minutes to tee off at the best 16th and best pat 3 on the planet.
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What is more visually jarring - benches or fairway stripes?
https://twitter.com/AndyEwence/status/1661421284708712473/photo/4 (https://twitter.com/AndyEwence/status/1661421284708712473/photo/4)
True. We're getting into "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" territory with some of this.
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After my marathon round following a morning league on a Detroit suburb 9 holer, I can without a doubt say I’m glad each hole had a bench.
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Again, I think folks arguing the aesthetics of faux-naturalism of an highly manicured golf course have a very limited idea of what a bench can look and feel like: https://chista.net/furniture/benches/natural-benches
(https://chista.net/furniture/benches/natural-benches)
Benches needn't look like the cheap plastic benches you see at most golf courses. They can easily be built into the landscape, and there's a clear argument for having them for ADA needs.
I understand the desire for minimalism, and I respect and generally agree, but if we're going to say things like tee markers/guidance should be gone, the why even have a flagstick? We generally need these things for reasons that are often not intuitive, so why not embrace them and make them beautiful.
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Since I have a seat attachment on my electric cart, I’m not even sure where the benches are at my club, with one BIG exception.
There is a bench at the first tee, and I try to take a few minutes before I tee off to sit there and appreciate where I am, what I am doing, and who I’m with. I look at the colors, hear the sounds, and consider my good fortune just to be there. It’s a beautiful view, and a quiet moment to try to adjust my perspective.
I love that bench.
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The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......
Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%] [/size]
Homogonization has many forms.
I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.
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If you guys are against just a bench, I shudder to think of comments on the "comfort station". :o (https://media.arizonafoothillsmagazine.com/in-house/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/25113754/chileno-bay.jpg)(https://golf-pass.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/ffb43a9/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1151+0+192/resize/900x506!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgolf-pass-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F69%2F49%2F0f4607e24712b484c0a29fa745cc%2Fimg-3906.jpeg)(https://golf-pass.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/51d19f5/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1151+0+192/resize/900x506!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgolf-pass-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F1c%2Fd7%2F126324b34d98b4a271efeabd724c%2Fimg-4082.jpeg)
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The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......
Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%] [/size]
Homogonization has many forms.
I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.
Jeff,
I don’t mind a couple benches, maybe on par 3s where play is possibly backed up a bit.
I also think Tom Doak’s story about input from Jack May makes sense. It might be something for Nick Schreiber to think about for Old Barnwell, especially if it can be done without changing the character of the course.
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Employ common sense and things should work out.....Matt is spot on.
Benches where a strenuous climb terminates or a view is revealed or waiting is anticipated.
No Tee markers or hole numbers is so elitist;if you aren't a member of our "club" piss off you don't belong here. Tee markers, when properly positioned can be very helpful for the unfamiliar or less skilled player's orientation and SPEED play and below grade markers aren't as adaptable( although the way the mowing crews cock up their placement may BE an argument for permanent locations but how would one deal with wear and tear?) .
I have had three surgeries on my right side and , God willing, may be able to walk again soem day but no way I could without a place to refresh and I never was a cartballer. Golf is supposed to be fun.
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The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
I was a precinct captain of the clutter police. I guess I got that way from knowing the golf course photographers back in the day, who would have to go up ahead and remove every bunker rake from their photos manually, since they couldn't do it digitally back then. You do not see many benches, signs, ball washers or trash cans in those gorgeous photos in the golf magazines [or on Instagram].
We extrapolated this to taking out clutter in the landscape . . . simplifying mowing lines, and taking out little trees that distracted are the big ones. That did not mean taking out every tree!
But then everybody else caught on, and of course they took it past the limit of reasonability. I'm not in favor of homogenizing the roughs to eliminate all natural variation . . . just the opposite, in fact, I think too many courses look too clean and pure outside the fairways.
Likewise, I'm not anti-bench: every course needs a few. I just don't want to see one that attracts my attention visually.
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The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
I was a precinct captain of the clutter police. (no doubt many/most courses needed that treatment 30-40 years ago)
I guess I got that way from knowing the golf course photographers back in the day, who would have to go up ahead and remove every bunker rake from their photos manually, since they couldn't do it digitally back then. You do not see many benches, signs, ball washers or trash cans in those gorgeous photos in the golf magazines [or on Instagram].
(of course you don't --they don't exist anymore on the courses that get photographed!)
We extrapolated this to taking out clutter in the landscape . . . simplifying mowing lines, and taking out little trees that distracted are the big ones.
That did not mean taking out every tree! (so true)
But then everybody else caught on, and of course they took it past the limit of reasonability. (yep)
I'm not in favor of homogenizing the roughs to eliminate all natural variation . . . just the opposite, in fact, I think too many courses look too clean and pure outside the fairways. (mono stand rough..ugh-it's friggin' "rough"---my favorite new place I went to this year was yellow with dandelions-in fairways as well)
Likewise, I'm not anti-bench: every course needs a few. I just don't want to see one that attracts my attention visually.
I broke that post up to highlight all the pure gold in it-my comments are in the( )
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I guess I got that way from knowing the golf course photographers back in the day, who would have to go up ahead and remove every bunker rake from their photos manually, since they couldn't do it digitally back then. You do not see many benches, signs, ball washers or trash cans in those gorgeous photos in the golf magazines [or on Instagram].
The scourge instagrammable places strikes again. Don't fight free marketing I guess. I feel like I would be very bad at marketing a golf course when reading that.
The elegant efficiency and practicality of a place like this:
(https://imgur.com/i3e8E0X.png)
being lost to the photographic aesthetics of a completely inefficient place like this drives me crazy:
(https://imgur.com/DP67hLH.png)
It's just the cost of doing business I guess.
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Benches are nice but the best feeling during delays on the tee in college tournaments was too lay a towel down on a nice grassy spot under a tree.
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If you guys are against just a bench, I shudder to think of comments on the "comfort station(https://golf-pass.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/ffb43a9/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1151+0+192/resize/900x506!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgolf-pass-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F69%2F49%2F0f4607e24712b484c0a29fa745cc%2Fimg-3906.jpeg)(https://golf-pass.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/51d19f5/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1151+0+192/resize/900x506!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgolf-pass-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F1c%2Fd7%2F126324b34d98b4a271efeabd724c%2Fimg-4082.jpeg)
Anyone fancy a ginger beer?
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EItitBsWkAAWIqu.jpg)
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While pro-bench, my far bigger grievance is the disappearance of ball washers and garbage cans. You can put these items underground, for God's sake. Even if you couldn't, I can't imagine the visual clutter would be more repulsive than my sweaty, tired butt hiking up to the clubhouse with two beer cans, a bottle of water, and a candy wrapper falling out of my bag as I bounce in my hand a ball that looks like it was dug up by a truffle pig.
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... as I bounce in my hand a ball that looks like it was dug up by a truffle pig.
I've never quite understood this one. If the course is wet enough to be picking up tons of mud on the ball, why not just reach down and wipe it off in a presumably wet patch of grass/rough, and do final cleanup/drying with the towel?
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Foursomes benches can be very handy, 8th and 12th at Deal and 6th and 7th at Sandwich spring to mind.
I was happy for a bench as we waited 45 minutes to tee off at the best 16th and best pat 3 on the planet.
Ok, I need to ask. What course with the best 16th that is the best par 3 have a 45 minute back up? Cypress Point does not seem to fit the bill unless it was some kind of charity outing.
Ira
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While pro-bench, my far bigger grievance is the disappearance of ball washers and garbage cans. You can put these items underground, for God's sake. Even if you couldn't, I can't imagine the visual clutter would be more repulsive than my sweaty, tired butt hiking up to the clubhouse with two beer cans, a bottle of water, and a candy wrapper falling out of my bag as I bounce in my hand a ball that looks like it was dug up by a truffle pig.
LOL-made me smile.
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The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......
Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%] [/size]
Homogonization has many forms.
I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.
Jeff,
I don’t mind a couple benches, maybe on par 3s where play is possibly backed up a bit.
I also think Tom Doak’s story about input from Jack May makes sense. It might be something for Nick Schreiber to think about for Old Barnwell, especially if it can be done without changing the character of the course.
Tim,
This thread prompted a pretty hearty discussion between Brian/Blake, John Lavelle, Chase Watson, and others on our team. The consensus was that a few strategically placed benches (e.g. 4, 9, 11, and the left tees on 14) that aren't eyesores or disturbances for the maintenance team would be good additions, particularly if we're promoting a walking culture.
As an aside, it's pretty amazing how often posts on this website have sparked conversations amongst our own team at Old Barnwell about our approach to things large and small.
Nick
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The clutter police took over years ago.
benches, signs, ballwashers, trashcans-----it all had to go.
But somehow 7-8 sets of tees have flourished, even on short par 3's......
Not sure which is worse, the insistence on no signs("we're a private club, why would we need signs?")
yeah-whatever, except for the outside tournaments, 31 outings, societies, raters, unaccompanied guests etc...who regularly get lost and/or confused.
....
or the all tee markers of similar non descript color leaving you to have to actually guess/walk up to the tee to figure out which one (of many) it is.
[size=78%] [/size]
Homogonization has many forms.
I'm all for a bench, a trash can and even a sign if it helps people.
Jeff,
I don’t mind a couple benches, maybe on par 3s where play is possibly backed up a bit.
I also think Tom Doak’s story about input from Jack May makes sense. It might be something for Nick Schreiber to think about for Old Barnwell, especially if it can be done without changing the character of the course.
Tim,
This thread prompted a pretty hearty discussion between Brian/Blake, John Lavelle, Chase Watson, and others on our team. The consensus was that a few strategically placed benches (e.g. 4, 9, 11, and the left tees on 14) that aren't eyesores or disturbances for the maintenance team would be good additions, particularly if we're promoting a walking culture.
As an aside, it's pretty amazing how often posts on this website have sparked conversations amongst our own team at Old Barnwell about our approach to things large and small.
Nick
Nick-There are more eyes on Golf Club Atlas than people realize or care to admit as it’s the original “influencer” when it comes to course design.
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Again, I think folks arguing the aesthetics of faux-naturalism of an highly manicured golf course have a very limited idea of what a bench can look and feel like: https://chista.net/furniture/benches/natural-benches
(https://chista.net/furniture/benches/natural-benches)
Benches needn't look like the cheap plastic benches you see at most golf courses. They can easily be built into the landscape, and there's a clear argument for having them for ADA needs.
I understand the desire for minimalism, and I respect and generally agree, but if we're going to say things like tee markers/guidance should be gone, the why even have a flagstick? We generally need these things for reasons that are often not intuitive, so why not embrace them and make them beautiful.
Yes, or even a golf bag for that matter. "Purists" use a bag that stands 3+ in the air made of nylon...
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Tim,
This thread prompted a pretty hearty discussion between Brian/Blake, John Lavelle, Chase Watson, and others on our team. The consensus was that a few strategically placed benches (e.g. 4, 9, 11, and the left tees on 14) that aren't eyesores or disturbances for the maintenance team would be good additions, particularly if we're promoting a walking culture.
As an aside, it's pretty amazing how often posts on this website have sparked conversations amongst our own team at Old Barnwell about our approach to things large and small.
Nick
It makes my day to find out a thread I posted here led to action somewhere in the real world. I don’t know where Old Barnwell is but I hope to enjoy one of your benches some day.
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(http://file:///C:/Users/mikeh/Downloads/52956065275_21733d961e_z%20(1).jpg)Sorry folks. Trying to post a pic from Flikr but a little bit rusty. Help please through personal message.
Thanks,
Sub-Bogey
(http://file:///C:/Users/mikeh/Downloads/52956065275_21733d961e_z%20(1).jpg)
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Jason,
We're set to open the course for preview play in September (we're in Aiken, SC). Just holler if you want to come and visit and enjoy the benches.
Cheers,
Nick
Tim,
This thread prompted a pretty hearty discussion between Brian/Blake, John Lavelle, Chase Watson, and others on our team. The consensus was that a few strategically placed benches (e.g. 4, 9, 11, and the left tees on 14) that aren't eyesores or disturbances for the maintenance team would be good additions, particularly if we're promoting a walking culture.
As an aside, it's pretty amazing how often posts on this website have sparked conversations amongst our own team at Old Barnwell about our approach to things large and small.
Nick
It makes my day to find out a thread I posted here led to action somewhere in the real world. I don’t know where Old Barnwell is but I hope to enjoy one of your benches some day.
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The 4th tee at the Veterans Administration Golf Course in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Taken the last day of operation in December, 2022. Green fee: $7.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52956065275_21733d961e.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oFxFfc)
You only THINK you know minimalism.