Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bill Brightly on May 18, 2023, 09:37:18 PM
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Hi guys, long time no post by me. Help me out with your thoughts about daily pin sheets and/or stupid little white flags on flagsticks so golfers know where the cup is located.
I belong to a pretty decent ODG course. This year our Superintendent removed the stupid little white flag that told whether the pin was front, middle or back. I loved this change, just the clean look of the green, the greenside bunkering and the pin in the distance. On a handful of holes it was somewhat difficult to tell how much room I had in front of or in back of the pin. (Of course I still had my rangerfinder, I am not a total purest, so it wasn't a total mystery...) I loved the element of doubt I had to deal with; I knew this was the architect's intent.
The lower handicap players in my club went nuts, sent numerous texts to the Golf Chair and President. They caved and put the stupid little white flags back. (Thank God they refused to print daily pin sheets.)
Any thoughts from the treehouse? Should I just let it go or fight back and die on the sword?
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Overall, I'd say let it go, especially if your main argument is purely aesthetics of the flag stick.
Not sure why you'd be against a pin sheet. It would be your best compromise. That way the flag sticks are kept clean and you can choose not to play with a pin sheet, preserving your element of doubt.
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"Persons grouped around a fire or candle for warmth or light are less able to pursue independent thoughts, or even tasks, than people supplied with an electric light. In the same way, the educational patterns latent in automation are those of self-employment and artistic autonomy." - Marshall Mcluhan
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Overall, I'd say let it go, especially if your main argument is purely aesthetics of the flag stick.
Not sure why you'd be against a pin sheet. It would be your best compromise. That way the flag sticks are kept clean and you can choose not to play with a pin sheet, preserving your element of doubt.
It's rare, but occasionally happens: I'm with Ben on this one, Bill.
I don't particularly like the little flags… but mostly because people sometimes seem to move them, often accidentally, and so… they don't really always illustrate where the flag is. My home course uses different colored flags (and no pin sheets) to indicate front 1/3, middle 1/3, or back 1/3. This is pretty common around where I live.
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Overall, I'd say let it go, especially if your main argument is purely aesthetics of the flag stick.
My main argument is that it defeats the architect's intent: to create doubt. I know really good golfers hate doubt.
Daily pin sheets, if prepared correctly, require careful placement of the cup by the grounds crew so that each line on the sheet correctly reflects how far it is from the side and front of the green. (Versus the superintendent telling the pincutter general sections of the green in a planned rotation.) That takes time and time is money when you have other tasks that a grounds crew could be doing.
And the stupid little white flags remind me that low handicappers want a crutch that they really should not need.
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My main argument is that it defeats the architect's intent: to create doubt. I know really good golfers hate doubt.
Daily pin sheets, if prepared correctly, require careful placement of the cup by the grounds crew so that each line on the sheet correctly reflects how far it is from the side and front of the green. (Versus the superintendent telling the pincutter general sections of the green in a planned rotation.) That takes time and time is money when you have other tasks that a grounds crew could be doing.
Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?
It’s been a long, long time since I’ve seen a precise daily pin sheet outside of a tournament round. It’s become very common to split each green into sectors and then posting somewhere near the first tee what sector the pin is located in on each green. Cycle through the sectors on a daily basis. It’s a simple system that gives the player a relative position of the pin and gives the super a schedule to set the pins.
Win win on all accounts
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Combine this banning all range finders and adding a shot clock, then you might have something.
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So you don't want any markings because the architect's intent is to create doubt, yet you use a rangefinder to eliminate any doubt whatsoever and get an exact number from anywhere? How do you square that argument? Are you in rangefinder sales?
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I find different colored flags to be fine. Typically they are targeting the non-tech casual player. I understand the aesthetics, but once the tech was allowed in the door, it's basically a waste of everyone's time to not just signal immediately where something is. If I've got my gps and see a blue flag, I immediately no the casual number without needing to laser.
That said, if I were creating my own club. I think I would stick to white-out, red-in flags, with no signal to the players. This would allow low-tech play if players chose, but my club would be a match play club, and probably wouldn't even have a course rating from the match tees, so people could just relax and play.
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I’m with Bill because I don’t like clutter and I don’t like course furniture.
Maybe it’s misplaced but I also just like one colour out and one colour in.
Pin sheets I hate because it interrupts the golfers journey. I don’t own a rangefinder for the same reason. I’m happy just eyeballing a yardage marker to the front of the green and then judging the bounce / roll / stopping power.
But then my fellow golfers consider me stupid not to be gaining advantage where I can. I’ll probably have to give in to an electric trolley soon as my shoulder is getting affected by consistent carrying. The quick glance down at the front / middle / back GPS on the trolley seems far less intrusive so I like that idea over all the others.
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Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb
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And how many prestigious courses in the world have little white flags? Appeal to the sense of snobbery and you may win.
I do feel that over time both "pin sheets" and "numbered sectors" reduce the number of actual spots used during a season.
As a member of an ODG club that went through a wonderful restoration but now has others running the show (new pro,new super, new golf chair, new greens committee head, and even a new long term planning board, I suggest throwing up your hands and not giving a shit as you start the race back to the bottom.
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Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb
It seems any course innovations/trends in the past 25 years have made the game more complicated, intrusive, cumbersome or expensive.
Ciao
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g1729728 date=1684460238]
I belong to a pretty decent ODG course. This year our Superintendent removed the stupid little white flag that told whether the pin was front, middle or back. I loved this change, just the clean look of the green, the greenside bunkering and the pin in the distance. On a handful of holes it was somewhat difficult to tell how much room I had in front of or in back of the pin. (Of course I still had my rangerfinder, I am not a total purest, so it wasn't a total mystery...) I loved the element of doubt I had to deal with; I knew this was the architect's intent.
The lower handicap players in my club went nuts, sent numerous texts to the Golf Chair and President. They caved and put the stupid little white flags back. (Thank God they refused to print daily pin sheets.)
Any thoughts from the treehouse? Should I just let it go or fight back and die on the sword?[/size]
I don't think there is a good argument against a course providing pin location info. I'm surprised those little white tabs on flagsticks bother anyone. They are quite inobtrusive, I'd let it go. (Do the big red baskets at Merion drive you nuts for messing with "the clean look of the green"? :) )
If you don't like the little white tabs, there are other commonly used methods to indicate hole location that you can suggest:
1. Different color flags, typically red for front, white or yellow for middle blue for back.
2. As many courses do, rotate the hole placements orderly throughout the 18 holes, front, middle back (repeat six times) one day; middle, back, front (repeat six times) another day; and back, front middle (repeat six times). On courses where they do this, they usually let players know the sequence of the day and if they don't, you'll know it after playing one hole.
3. On courses that don't do a set orderly hole location sequence or that have more than three general hole locations, many have scorecards using numbers to show hole locations and they post which number is the position number of he day. This is more common on public courses than private clubs though.
Most courses I've played, including many private clubs, provide players with a way to know where the hole is located on each green. I'm not convinced that architects create many holes where not knowing the general hole location is an important part of the design. Isn't it often the opposite, where a hole is designed to require a different shot depending on hole location so knowing location is needed to know what shot is called for. In any event, as you use a range finder, I don't understand your concern about a course providing a different, less precise, method of determining hole location for players that don't use range finders.
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Forget the little white flags, whose idea was it to shove a tall stick in the hole showing its location. Let the golfer figure out where the hole is themselves. Plus the big flag someone decided to put on top of that stick helps show the direction and strength of the wind! In addition we put yardages on sprinkler heads and now give golfers range finders so they can measure exact distances and slopes. And as Bill says, some clubs even provide pin sheets to very clearly show daily hole locations. When will it stop as it is crazy and surely not what the architect intended!
But last I checked, the golfer still has to execute the shot (Iron Byron can’t hit it for us) and still has to get the ball in the hole. The average golfer despite all this extra advice and information still struggles to break 100. And by the way, if golfers tried to figure out this information without all the help it might take them 6 hours to play their round instead of
only 5 :(
The game is supposed to be fun and each of us can elect to use or not use whatever information and resources are available to add or take away from that enjoyment or challenge. Most things that help speed up play are probably ok with me. The game is hard enough as is. And by the way, having the golfer know where the hole is definitely favors the golf architect.
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Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?
I'm sure there is some writing on the subject, but we don't need it. The existence of forced perspective and other visual tricks shows their intent clearly enough. There'd be no reason to go through the trouble if it wasn't intended.
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Combine this banning all range finders and adding a shot clock, then you might have something.
Yeah, an emptier place than before.
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Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb
It seems any course innovations/trends in the past 25 years have made the game more complicated, intrusive, cumbersome or expensive.
Ciao
Wha? The little flags (tri-color or location) have been around since the 1970s...was little slidable "wiffle" spheres when they started.
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How many hole locations (holes) are hard to discern on the course
Remove the little white flags for 3 reasons:
Play is slightly more challenging
It creates mystery a couple of times a round
It is an aesthetic improvement
p.s. play without the range finder to see if it makes a scoring difference for you
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Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?
I'm sure there is some writing on the subject, but we don't need it. The existence of forced perspective and other visual tricks shows their intent clearly enough. There'd be no reason to go through the trouble if it wasn't intended.
I'm sorry Charlie, an architects use of forced perspective or other visual tricks does not confirm an architect's disdain for the player to have some knowledge of where the pin is located. One could argue the exact opposite.
It is only when the player's own visual assessment of the pins location is in contradiction with provided information that the desired doubt is created in the player's decision. The more knowledge a player has of the pins location, the more the architect can play with deception.
If a pin flag wasn't used at all, what impacts would visual tricks have on a players choice of play towards the green?
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Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?
I'm sure there is some writing on the subject, but we don't need it. The existence of forced perspective and other visual tricks shows their intent clearly enough. There'd be no reason to go through the trouble if it wasn't intended.
I'm sorry Charlie, an architects use of forced perspective or other visual tricks does not confirm an architect's disdain for the player to have some knowledge of where the pin is located. One could argue the exact opposite.
It is only when the player's own visual assessment of the pins location is in contradiction with provided information that the desired doubt is created in the player's decision. The more knowledge a player has of the pins location, the more the architect can play with deception.
If a pin flag wasn't used at all, what impacts would visual tricks have on a players choice of play towards the green?
You're reading too much into my statement. The intent to deceive is apparent, in the same way that the intent to drop something is apparent by letting it go. That's all. Even in 1920, the players would eventually get an idea of locations and distances without the contrivances we have now. The architects intended the deception knowing full-well that it would be eroded over time. I'm mostly fine with most of the various distance aids, my only point is the intent was there or they wouldn't have expended the effort to do it.
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[quote author=Mike Nuzzo link=topic=71932.msg1729750#msg1729750 date=1684501393
It creates mystery a couple of times a round
‘Mystery’, not a word usually associated with golf but I love the thought. Splendid.
Atb
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Why do they put a white stone on the hill at The Dell hole at Lahinch? More mystery if they didn’t 😉
It is because it saves time from golfers walking up there or sending the caddie ahead to find out where the flagstick is that day. The golfer still has to hit the shot. Does the white stone ruin the architect’s intent?
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Why do they put a white stone on the hill at The Dell hole at Lahinch? More mystery if they didn’t
It is because it saves time from golfers walking up there or sending the caddie ahead to find out where the flagstick is that day. The golfer still has to hit the shot. Does the white stone ruin the architect’s intent?
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Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb
It seems any course innovations/trends in the past 25 years have made the game more complicated, intrusive, cumbersome or expensive.
Ciao
Wha? The little flags (tri-color or location) have been around since the 1970s...was little slidable "wiffle" spheres when they started.
Ok, the last 50 years ::)
Ciao
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I don't necessarily agree that the architect is somehow trying to deceive the player - the architect is trying to challenge the player and having knowledge of the course or the hole doesn't defeat the architect's design intent. The best players in the world are being challenged by the architect and that challenge is more than enough to establish who is the best player and how good is the design of the course. Sure, sometimes they are surprised about how much a putt may break but there is no deception as to where they should play a shot or even need to play a shot because of the difficulty of executing the necessary shot and the consequence if not executed exactly correctly.
Just tell the guys who want the little flags that you will also put poles in the fairways at 200, 150 and 100 yards. My club has pin sheets with simple pluses or minuses and it works quite well as we can look at a flag and see its location so far as right or left.
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I don't necessarily agree that the architect is somehow trying to deceive the player - the architect is trying to challenge the player and having knowledge of the course or the hole doesn't defeat the architect's design intent. The best players in the world are being challenged by the architect and that challenge is more than enough to establish who is the best player and how good is the design of the course. Sure, sometimes they are surprised about how much a putt may break but there is no deception as to where they should play a shot or even need to play a shot because of the difficulty of executing the necessary shot and the consequence if not executed exactly correctly.
Just tell the guys who want the little flags that you will also put poles in the fairways at 200, 150 and 100 yards. My club has pin sheets with simple pluses or minuses and it works quite well as we can look at a flag and see its location so far as right or left.
Deceive or deception are loaded words that can imply more than I think is meant by their use in this case. I think it would be perfectly fair to say that architects who used visual tricks were only trying to challenge us and make choosing the correct shot or strategy more difficult. The purpose of adding that type of perceived difficulty, I think, is somewhat egalitarian in nature. Discerning the proper shot to play is something anyone can do, regardless of ability. It may be a way to level the playing field between the weaker player and the stronger player.
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8) Bill B,
Personally, I'd let it go... these information sources (perhaps forces) are simply too entrenched at this time in the golf culture, let alone play with GPS aids...
I played an interclub match recently where the home team guys were constantly using laser and gps aids and calling out the yardages to double check things... at their home course. Just being competitive I guess... or its the ritual, probably a little of both. I couldn't unhear those yardages.
I grew up playing on courses with 150 yd bushes and random painted numbers on sprinklers... so while I now have a gps watch giving front, middle, and back yardages, I pretty much play to the center of greens and take my chances from there... maybe bias things a little given local knowledge and conditions...
I have to wonder if the ODG's had more technology at hand, would they have created the same type of courses or given us different views??
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Why do they put a white stone on the hill at The Dell hole at Lahinch? More mystery if they didn’t 😉
It is because it saves time from golfers walking up there or sending the caddie ahead to find out where the flagstick is that day. The golfer still has to hit the shot. Does the white stone ruin the architect’s intent?
General indication vrs highly specific advice.
And an occasional wee white stone is decidedly inexpensive and doesn’t have to be moved most or each day.
At
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Thomas,
Did the architect intend the use of the white stone in their design? Regardless, do any of us think there are any professional players that don’t know exactly where every hole is located before they tee off or play their approach shot? They know right where they are. Providing a pin sheet is just a quicker way for the rest of us to find out. Again we don’t need to use it if we don’t want to. And as I said, the FAR MAJORITY of golfers are just trying to end up somewhere on the green so it helps them very little. No disrespect, but most of the information golfers get, they can’t use anyway because they are not that good. I am a 1 index and if my ego allowed it I would probably be lower by just aiming at the middle of most greens and my score might go down.
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And as I said, the FAR MAJORITY of golfers are just trying to end up somewhere on the green so it helps them very little. No disrespect, but most of the information golfers get, they can’t use anyway because they are not that good. I am a 1 index and if my ego allowed it I would probably be lower by just aiming at the middle of most greens and my score might go down.
I'm a 13 index. I am happy just to be on a green, but I am much happier to get my approaches close to the hole. Knowing whether the hole is front, middle or back definitely helps me to do that. Just using the distance to the middle of the green to determine the appropriate shot is often not helpful in ending up on the middle of the green. The two courses I play most often have a half dozen holes each that run very fast from front to back. If I shoot for the middle of the green on any of those holes, I'll either be at the very back of the green or off the back in rough... Not very helpful if the hole is at the front or even in the middle. Our greens at both courses are very interesting with both break and some undulation and are very difficult to two putt from the back and even worse when off the back in the rough. On those holes where approaches run fast to the back, in order to be close to a front hole location I need to land just short and have the ball hop on. To a middle location I need to land on the front. If I execute, I'll be close. If I don't hit it solid I may still be on the green. Knowing the hole location is very helpful for this high handicapper.
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Thomas,
Did the architect intend the use of the white stone in their design? Regardless, do any of us think there are any professional players that don’t know exactly where every hole is located before they tee off or play their approach shot? They know right where they are. Providing a pin sheet is just a quicker way for the rest of us to find out. Again we don’t need to use it if we don’t want to. And as I said, the FAR MAJORITY of golfers are just trying to end up somewhere on the green so it helps them very little. No disrespect, but most of the information golfers get, they can’t use anyway because they are not that good. I am a 1 index and if my ego allowed it I would probably be lower by just aiming at the middle of most greens and my score might go down.
The simple rule of thumb on Golf Club Atlas is, Mark Fine is usually on the wrong side of the argument. 8)
As an architect, I can say that I don't really like giving golfers extra information about how to play the course. I'm not often trying to deliberately deceive them, but I would prefer if they employed their own brain power to figure out how to attack my defenses, instead of relying on artificial devices.
I really dislike the front/middle/back rotation found on many courses, including all of them at Bandon, last I looked. It's just so rote, and it doesn't take the wind into account. Just like the golfers, I'd love for the maintenance crew to employ a little of their own brain power.
More and more, at the high-end clubs with lightning fast greens, the hole locations are set by a computer app that takes inputs on wind and green speed and where the hole has been in the last week, and tries to find a balance for the day's locations. And that app will also spit out a pin sheet for the pro shop, so it doesn't take any more of the maintenance crew's time -- they just have to pace out where to cut the holes.
It was more of an adventure in the days when the members were subject to the mood of the guy who cut the holes. I remember at Piping Rock when we were doing the renovation work, the golf chairman told me that the holes were set by a guy on the crew who was a recovering alcoholic, and the members could tell how he was doing when they played each Saturday. :)
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I really dislike the front/middle/back rotation found on many courses, including all of them at Bandon, last I looked. It's just so rote, and it doesn't take the wind into account. Just like the golfers, I'd love for the maintenance crew to employ a little of their own brain power.
I do as well. I dislike even more the "hole location 6 today" stuff. I've shown up at a course months or even years apart… and for 18 holes, played almost exactly the same hole location on all 18 holes because I showed up both times on "Pin Position 3" days.
At least front-middle-back can leave some variety left to right. When they have quadrants or, more often, six "areas," you often get holes relatively close to where it was six days ago.
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I dislike even more the "hole location 6 today" stuff. I've shown up at a course months or even years apart… and for 18 holes, played almost exactly the same hole location on all 18 holes because I showed up both times on "Pin Position 3" days.
At least front-middle-back can leave some variety left to right. When they have quadrants or, more often, six "areas," you often get holes relatively close to where it was six days ago.
Agreed.
Years ago we played the Renaissance Cup at a course where the superintendent had a 13-day pin rotation. The greens are pretty severe, and we didn't want the course to be too hard, so a friend and I went out to set holes for some better birdie chances. You can imagine my surprise when some of the flattest places we found were not in the 13-day rotation at all.
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Tom,
I was just stating facts ;) (which statements do you disagree with because I know you are ALWAYS on the correct side) 8) By the way, I trust you agree, a pin sheet says nothing to the golfer about "how to play the course". It just states where the hole is located. It is then up to the golfer to figure out how best to get there.
Stewart,
I probably should have used different words than saying "aiming at the middle of the green". I hoped you and others would know what I meant which was trying to hit a shot that "ended up" in the middle of the green. How you get to that spot can vary dramatically but that would be the goal so there is no worrying about where the hole is located that particular day - just focus on playing approach shots that end up near the middle. The point was, if I could have a putt from the middle of every green on most courses in regulation I would probably be lower than a 1 index. By the way, how would you play your home course if there were NO flagsticks? Maybe I should ask Tom if flagsticks are extra information ;D
Erik,
Most clubs that have hole locations like "hole location 6" (my home club Lehigh CC uses such a system) are done to spread out wear and tear on the green (if you are fortunate to have that many). On most of our greens there is variety within those locations for the hole to be placed and the super chooses unless we are having a tournament. On several of the courses I am currently working on, they have multiple holes where they are lucky to have 2 or 3 hole locations as the greens have so much slope for current green speeds.
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We used to have pin sheets, went to 5 section system this year. Red white and blue is “public course”. I would prefer Red White Blue over the section system. I liked the pin sheets. I can’t play like a tour pro but I like playing like a tour pro…….
Played Jackie Burke’s club many years ago in Houston. Large greens with no indication where the pins were and this was before lasers. All depth perception. Jackie I was told, was old school.
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Why do they put a white stone on the hill at The Dell hole at Lahinch? More mystery if they didn’t
It is because it saves time from golfers walking up there or sending the caddie ahead to find out where the flagstick is that day. The golfer still has to hit the shot. Does the white stone ruin the architect’s intent?
General indication vrs highly specific advice.
And an occasional wee white stone is decidedly inexpensive and doesn’t have to be moved most or each day.
At
The Lahinch white stone is one of the most famous and iconic landmarks in golf. Are folks really comparing that to pin sheets 👀.
Ciao
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Chuckle time!
Oh for times gone bye when hole locations were only changed maybe once, maybe twice per week, if that at some courses.
Incidentally don’t folks these days look at greens ahead to try and get a glimpse of where hole positions further on in the round are located?
Atb
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Sean,
Is it really a big deal to show a golfer where the hole is located with a pin sheet? I tossed out the white stone just to show that even on iconic courses, they point out where the hole is located (very similar to a modern (#3 hole location system).
And Thomas yes of course many of us look to see/confirm where a hole is when we pass by other holes during a round. Smart thing to do for added info.
I could be wrong (Tom Doak will tell everyone I always am ;D and he is always right) but these “extra bits of information” like yardage makers on sprinkler heads, pin sheets, hole location indicators, range finders, … (some of this we like or don’t like because we are purists) are attempts to speed up the game. Many of these surely lessen the need for a really good caddie who is good at walking off yardages, great at math and triangulating distances, willing and able to walk up to greens to check on hole locations,.. etc For some all of this is definitely still part of the game. For others it is just not that much fun. I am thinking how much fun it would be waiting on a group in front of me watching such an exhibition. Again the game is hard enough for most of us. Despite all this extra information, you still have to execute the shot all the way down to that three footer - not sure the pin sheet helps a lot with that ;D
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Mark,
I just think that golf is best as one man, his swords and interaction with the landscape. The less of everything else the better.
Where people draw the line at what they accept and what they don’t like in that “everything else” is going to be quite individual. For me, I don’t like clutter and I don’t like additional “tools” such as range finders, stroke savers, pin sheets etc… primarily because you have to get them out of your pocket, interact with them and that disrupts the flow of seeing the shot as you walk up to it, pulling the club and then executing.
On the other hand, I have come to accept that yardages are here to stay and therefore needed - at least to stay competitive - so anything that I can just glance at as I walk is preferable: A 150 yard marker, numbers on sprinklers or - grudgingly - a GPS on your watch or trolley.
That’s me. Others will have different priorities / preferences.
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Mark,
I just think that golf is best as one man, his swords and interaction with the landscape. The less of everything else the better.
Where people draw the line at what they accept and what they don’t like in that “everything else” is going to be quite individual. For me, I don’t like clutter and I don’t like additional “tools” such as range finders, stroke savers, pin sheets etc… primarily because you have to get them out of your pocket, interact with them and that disrupts the flow of seeing the shot as you walk up to it, pulling the club and then executing.
On the other hand, I have come to accept that yardages are here to stay and therefore needed - at least to stay competitive - so anything that I can just glance at as I walk is preferable: A 150 yard marker, numbers on sprinklers or - grudgingly - a GPS on your watch or trolley.
That’s me. Others will have different priorities / preferences.
I concur Ally. I prefer markers on edge of fairways and yardages on sprinklers. But I am realist. Golfers are going to want all the crap between ball and club....and carts to get to the ball. To each is own.
Ciao
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Yes to Ally and Sean, to each his own.
I was just reading about some of the pros comments on what the average golfer would shoot at Oak Hill. The estimates were between 120 and 150!!! Not sure pin sheets and range finders etc are going to help much there ;D
Thank goodness for forward sets of tees (but I know many here don’t like that idea either) ;)
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Just do away with all of it and make the game simple. No pars or yardage or layouts on scorecards or on tees too. Just play the holes and add up your scores. Lowest total score wins.
::)
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Just do away with all of it and make the game simple. No pars or yardage or layouts on scorecards or on tees too. Just play the holes and add up your scores. Lowest total score wins.
::)
Why stop there? Take away the flag and flag stick while your at it.
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Are those of you who would prefer that informational tools such as range finders, stroke savers, pin sheets, white tabs etc not be available okay with bifurcation? Tools with details about courses, greens, hole locations and even breaks on greens will never be leaving the professional game.
IMHO, giving ordinary Jills and Joes as much help as they can get about course set up is good for the game (and is particularly helpful where as visitors they only get to play a course one time).
I get a kick out of how many minute issues bother people and get made into bigger deals than they really are. Let golfers play however they have the most fun, so long as they play fast. Pace of play is the main issues of concern (along with maintenance practice/costs)[/size]. Tabs on flags, stroke savers, range finders don't even make the front page of the list.
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It’s not our thread, Stewart. A few of us who have grown up playing golf in GB&I under those simple conditions are just giving our opinion on what is the essence of the game. Our opinion seems to be annoying people, not the other way round.
There is nothing more enjoyable than grabbing your bag for an evening 9 / 12 / 18 in the sunshine on a remote links. Part of the reason for that is the simplicity of man, ball, hole and landscape.
My take on golf. Everyone else can have their own take.
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Of course. Other than using persimmon, I am merely playing the game the way I did when I lerned to play. There is room enough for everyone. All I am saying is that I don't believe the introduction of gadgets, complicated watering systems, special agronomy etc etc has made the game cheaper or quicker to play. All that said, the only place I really draw the line is cart paths in play of golf shots and music. All the rest I can and do ignore.
Ciao
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It’s not our thread, Stewart. A few of us who have grown up playing golf in GB&I under those simple conditions are just giving our opinion on what is the essence of the game. Our opinion seems to be annoying people, not the other way round.
Exactly. It amazes me, but I have seen it more and more the past few years in America. It's as if my choosing to decline some modern contrivance is meant to embarrass them, and they can't live with that.
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We just use Red- front, White-middle and Yellow-back flags. If we went for one color flags, the members would go ballistic !!!
Back in the day, the mantra was one color, usually white, and just play for the middle.
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I just played a course with one color pin flags (Squaw Creek - Willow Park, TX). I noticed after a couple of holes a small colored flag - red or white or blue - attached to the tee marker next to the tee box. Sure enough, those little flags were designating the flag position on each green.
I come down on the side of having the pin position available and if you don't want to use it, then don't.
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I come down on the side of having the pin position available and if you don't want to use it, then don't.
+1-The only things that will give exact yardage are rangefinders and pin sheets if you want to do the math. The red, white and blue flags will give you help on the depth but not exact yardage.
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Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb
+1
David - I’m old enough remember when my local courses had no yardage indicators of any kind. Eventually, some courses installed 150 yard bushes on the sides of the fairways. The posh courses railed against this as “not true to the spirit of the game.” But, when laser measurement from sprinkler heads was introduced the posh clubs were the only ones who could afford it… so, they all jumped on the bandwagon as it made them “special.” We started down a slippery slope. Golfers started wanting more and more information, and depending less and less on their eyes and judgment. Then, the USGA started requiring every score be posted with them for handicapping purposes. Now, everyone is so focused on “score” in the States that removing “little white flags” creates a major brew hahaha.
I read an article once (Golf Digest I think) where an experiment was done with a group of high handicappers. All the flagsticks were removed from the course and the players had no idea where the holes were located. The group played an average of 3-5 shots better than their handicaps! They played to the center of the greens instead of shooting at pins and had fewer really bad outcomes. What does that say about pin sheets, rangefinders and “little white flags?”
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Riverfront by TD & team by subtlely manipulating the ground plane and green slopes would create some real depth perception challenges without the little flags on the flagsticks and eliminating distance markers on the sprinkler heads.
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We use daily pin sheets in the golf carts or on paper the walking golfer can carry. On a number of uphill holes they're useful to tell whether the pin is toward the back of the green or the front. On the other hand, on one of the holes you can check out the location from the previous hole's tee, and in the other cases I guess you could walk or drive up to the green to check the location before returning to hit your approach shot. Bottom line, I like the pin sheets, particularly when they are reasonable accurate.
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Range finders are being used at the PGA Championship in an attempt to speed up play. Not sure if it has helped given the weather has probably negated much improvement plus the caddies do so much scouting of the course they know yardages from every spot out there.
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Back in the day, I remember playing Sunnybrook GC in Plymouth Meeting, PA when there were no yardage markers on the course; however, there was a separate card giving yardage to the green by numbering various trees on the card. Very unique.
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Back in the day, I remember playing Sunnybrook GC in Plymouth Meeting, PA when there were no yardage markers on the course; however, there was a separate card giving yardage to the green by numbering various trees on the card. Very unique.
Yes, Steve, immovable items on the course were great judgement points for distance. I remember that there were certain trees or rocks that determined which club to hit... "7-iron from the large rock on the left of #10", etc. Of course, you had to play a course quite a few times to figure all this out as we didn't have caddies down South ;) .
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g1729728 date=1684460238]
[/size]They are quite inobtrusive, I'd let it go. (Do the big red baskets at Merion drive you nuts for messing with "the clean look of the green"? :) )
No Stewart, as I'm sure you know, the red baskets at Merion harken back to a time when the grounds crew left their lunch safely in the basket... How could I NOT love that?
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From a greenkeeper's point of view different coloured flags for front, middle, and back are a pain in the arse.
When the new head guy at the muni where I work took over the first thing he did was remove all the white flags and throw them in the bin. We reverted to the traditional red out and yellow in.
The low handicap members went ballistic, but he stood his ground. Our job in the summer is to mow grass, change holes, and rake bunkers. Not mess about with different coloured flags!
It's worked. They all seem to have forgotten about it now!
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If I don't have something to give me an idea of distance, I don't enjoy the round. That last happened at Copper Valley (formerly Saddle Creek) last summer. I forgot my Skycaddie, and the course had just been taken over by the membership from Castle and Cooke, and among other issues, a lot of the sprinkler caps, which normally would have yardages on them, were missing. If I don't have some idea whether the club I have in my hand is the right one for the distance, I don't make a confident swing, and don't play as well. As far as I'm concerned, having something, a sprnkler-head, or a fairway marker or a yardage book or my device, gives me one less thing to think about, other than making a good swing. I use Aim Point for the same reason, because it's better to have a definite target in terms of making a quality stroke. I actually use the original charts, which apparently were too involved for the pros to read, and I do put better using it, especially from inside 10 feet. Your mileage may vary.
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If I don't have something to give me an idea of distance, I don't enjoy the round. That last happened at Copper Valley (formerly Saddle Creek) last summer. I forgot my Skycaddie, and the course had just been taken over by the membership from Castle and Cooke, and among other issues, a lot of the sprinkler caps, which normally would have yardages on them, were missing. If I don't have some idea whether the club I have in my hand is the right one for the distance, I don't make a confident swing, and don't play as well. As far as I'm concerned, having something, a sprnkler-head, or a fairway marker or a yardage book or my device, gives me one less thing to think about, other than making a good swing. I use Aim Point for the same reason, because it's better to have a definite target in terms of making a quality stroke. I actually use the original charts, which apparently were too involved for the pros to read, and I do put better using it, especially from inside 10 feet. Your mileage may vary.
Jeff,
Agreed the horse has bolted somewhat. But if you grew up playing before all this was available to you - and they never made it available - it wouldn’t affect your swing in the slightest.
It’s remarkable how quickly all this stuff became normalised. I still consider myself a young fella’ (relatively) and even I remember when I first came across a course that put three discs in the fairway to show 100, 150 & 200 yards to the middle. Before that there was nothing.
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Perhaps courses should place advertisements on pin sheets and yardage indicators?
May I suggest that adverts for opticians and eye doctors would be particularly appropriate!
atb
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If I don't have something to give me an idea of distance, I don't enjoy the round. That last happened at Copper Valley (formerly Saddle Creek) last summer. I forgot my Skycaddie, and the course had just been taken over by the membership from Castle and Cooke, and among other issues, a lot of the sprinkler caps, which normally would have yardages on them, were missing. If I don't have some idea whether the club I have in my hand is the right one for the distance, I don't make a confident swing, and don't play as well. As far as I'm concerned, having something, a sprnkler-head, or a fairway marker or a yardage book or my device, gives me one less thing to think about, other than making a good swing. I use Aim Point for the same reason, because it's better to have a definite target in terms of making a quality stroke. I actually use the original charts, which apparently were too involved for the pros to read, and I do put better using it, especially from inside 10 feet. Your mileage may vary.
Jeff,
Agreed the horse has bolted somewhat. But if you grew up playing before all this was available to you - and they never made it available - it wouldn’t affect your swing in the slightest.
It’s remarkable how quickly all this stuff became normalised. I still consider myself a young fella’ (relatively) and even I remember when I first came across a course that put three discs in the fairway to show 100, 150 & 200 yards to the middle. Before that there was nothing.
Ally - I fear these guys who are so dependent on outside assistance and advice in golf would have distance markings painted all over a basketball court so Steph Curry could “make a quality stroke.” It’s the difference between playing “golf” and playing “golf swing.” Why they ever leave the driving range is beyond me.
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This all stems from watching the Professionals. No one wants bifurcation of the game. All golfers know the pros know every yardage and every hole location before they play a shot (no matter how long it takes for them to figure it out). Why shouldn’t the average golfer have the same info? The pros figured out this information even before range finders and pin sheets and different color flags etc were used/available. Most of these things were added for amateurs to speed up play. It is still a very hard game for most so why make it even harder for the amateurs?[/size]
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A few replies:
Ally-"if" is the longest two-letter word in the dictionary. You may be right that I would feel differently if I hadn't grown up as a golfer using those resources, but I did, to the point that at the one course that doesn't have them (Sharp Park), I actually made my own yardage book, so I would have something to refer to. This also reflects the fact that, as an American golfer, I want to try to shoot my best score every time, and knowing my distance helps that, so getting a device once they became available was a no brainer, especially since it's faster than walking off a yardage from a sprinkler head. I get that golfers across the pond may not/do not approach the game that way. More power to you.
Regarding the attempted parallel between me and Steph Curry, it doesn't hold water. As many golf instructors have pointed out, target-focused games where you have to stand to the side of the ball, like golf, are much more difficult than games where you sight the target from behind the ball, as in basketball. To carry the analogy forward, if basketball rules were changed so that only hook shots were permitted, the leading scorer would probably average about 12 ppg.
I also want to note generally that much of the instruction I've read about course management says that it's important to know how far you hit your clubs. If that's the case, isn't logical to also know how far you have to the target? Obviously, one makes adjustments for weather conditions, etc., but denying people the information seems petty. Also, if the GOAT (Jack Nicklaus) thought having yardages helped him, should the rest of us be denied that.
This is all a separate issue from pace-of-play. If I'm slow, penalize me or kick me off the course, and I'll have to figure what things I want to do differently to play faster. Don't dictate to me what those things should be. That's Putin/Trump golf.
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A few replies:
Ally-"if" is the longest two-letter word in the dictionary. You may be right that I would feel differently if I hadn't grown up as a golfer using those resources, but I did, to the point that at the one course that doesn't have them (Sharp Park), I actually made my own yardage book, so I would have something to refer to. This also reflects the fact that, as an American golfer, I want to try to shoot my best score every time, and knowing my distance helps that, so getting a device once they became available was a no brainer, especially since it's faster than walking off a yardage from a sprinkler head. I get that golfers across the pond may not/do not approach the game that way. More power to you.
Regarding the attempted parallel between me and Steph Curry, it doesn't hold water. As many golf instructors have pointed out, target-focused games where you have to stand to the side of the ball, like golf, are much more difficult than games where you sight the target from behind the ball, as in basketball. To carry the analogy forward, if basketball rules were changed so that only hook shots were permitted, the leading scorer would probably average about 12 ppg.
I also want to note generally that much of the instruction I've read about course management says that it's important to know how far you hit your clubs. If that's the case, isn't logical to also know how far you have to the target? Obviously, one makes adjustments for weather conditions, etc., but denying people the information seems petty. Also, if the GOAT (Jack Nicklaus) thought having yardages helped him, should the rest of us be denied that.
This is all a separate issue from pace-of-play. If I'm slow, penalize me or kick me off the course, and I'll have to figure what things I want to do differently to play faster. Don't dictate to me what those things should be. That's Putin/Trump golf.
Since you brought it up, I'd love to hear specific examples of things the prior administration dictated in your life. I can think of a few things that have ACTUALLY been dictated the last 3 years.
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I don’t care who brought it up, could we not discuss it?
Rather let’s continue the passionate discussion about why little flags on a flagstick are / are not stupid.
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I don’t care who brought it up, could we not discuss it?
Rather let’s continue the passionate discussion about why little flags on a flagstick are / are not stupid.
Well, it wasn't directed at you, and I would genuinely like to know the answer ... since he used those words. I find it very interesting.
As far as the little flags are concerned, I'm not sure anyone would find them "stupid." They're either informative to some, or not so much. I personally don't have too strong an opinion with the reliance on range finders these days. I do consider pin sheets to be a waste of time. I play a lot of tournaments and have used it once or twice I can remember over the last couple years. Now, if I go back over history, I grew up with 150 bushes and eye balled and occasionally paced. Flags had a flag or wiffle ball on them to show front, back, or middle. Those days are gone and range finders are the standard. Things evolve, but it seemed a simpler time and people actually played quicker back then. Probably a psyche thing that as we got the easy access to the info, the more worried about precision we became .. and people started to laser 37 yards, 42 yards, etc .. and maybe it really slowed things down. End of the day, the 150 markers and front back middle days were my favorite. There was more soul involved.
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I think it boils down to how much information you need. I'm happy with knowing how far to the middle of the green. OW does use a 150yd pole, and I can work off from that. But, if you know how far you hit each club, that's all the info you need.