Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Blain on May 17, 2023, 11:40:09 AM
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Does anyone know if courses 1,3 & 5 at PHCC are Ross courses with original Ross greens or are those courses more the work of Ellis Maples?
I'm trying to figure out how much original Ross is really left at the resort courses?
#1 - Ross? Anyone else?
#2 - Ross
#3 - Ross Anyone else?
#4 - Hanse
#5 - Ross? Anyone else?
#6 - George/Tom Fazio?
#7 - Rees Jones
#8 - Fazio
#9 - Nicklaus.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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When the no.5 course was created, it was done by blending some of Ross's holes from the original no. 3 course and some new Ellis Maple holes to complete the new course. Maples then build new holes to reconfigure the no. 3 course back to a full 18. You can reference Chris Buie's "The Original Pinehurst No. 3 (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/buie-chris-the-original-pinehurst-no-3/)"for more information.
After the cradle was built, Hanse rebuilt quite a bit of the no. 3 course, I can't say how many greens he touched, but I don't think there are more than 8 Ross green sites left on the course. I'd guess that there are now 4 Hanse greens and 6 Maples greens on the course today.
On the no. 5 course, there maybe only 6 Ross green sites left, With 1 Hanse green, and 11 Maples greens.
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When the no.5 course was created, it was done by blending some of Ross's holes from the original no. 3 course and some new Ellis Maple holes to complete the new course. Maples then build new holes to reconfigure the no. 3 course back to a full 18. You can reference Chris Buie's "The Original Pinehurst No. 3 (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/buie-chris-the-original-pinehurst-no-3/)"for more information.
After the cradle was built, Hanse rebuilt quite a bit of the no. 3 course, I can't say how many greens he touched, but I don't think there are more than 8 Ross green sites left on the course. I'd guess that there are now 4 Hanse greens and 6 Maples greens on the course today.
On the no. 5 course, there maybe only 6 Ross green sites left, With 1 Hanse green, and 11 Maples greens.
Thanks, Ben. I appreciate the response!
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Gil didn’t build anything on course 1, 3 or 5. Kyle, Kye and Blake did w the resort in house team. Rerouting a few holes for course 3 and 5 def came about from the cradle. He may have played a part in the routing but it’s hard to remember exactly at the moment or pin point who should be credited the most.
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John,
The building of the Cradle caused some changed to course No. 3, and I believe the greens on the course can be attributed the following;
No. 1 - 2: Franz
No. 3 - 5: Ross
No. 6: Maples
No. 7 - 8: Franz
No. 9 - 11: Maples
No. 12 - 18: Ross
Tyler
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John,
The building of the Cradle caused some changed to course No. 3, and I believe the greens on the course can be attributed the following;
No. 1 - 2: Franz
No. 3 - 5: Ross
No. 6: Maples
No. 7 - 8: Franz
No. 9 - 11: Maples
No. 12 - 18: Ross
Tyler
Tyler:
I think holes 14 & 15 may be Maples (I agree on all the others).
Dean
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Here's some earlier posts on Pinehurst #3 and #5:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40661.0.html
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69265.0.html
Dave
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Does anyone know if courses 1,3 & 5 at PHCC are Ross courses with original Ross greens or are those courses more the work of Ellis Maples?
I'm trying to figure out how much original Ross is really left at the resort courses?
#1 - Ross? Anyone else?
#2 - Ross
#3 - Ross Anyone else?
#4 - Hanse
#5 - Ross? Anyone else?
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
John, I've wondered the same thing since I first visited. I love playing #1 and #3 but PCC is so attached to the legacy of Ross the bastardization of #1 and #3 is best left unsaid.
Chris Buie and Ran probably know the answers.
I suggest The Legendary Evolution of Pinehurst by Richard Mandell. The aerials helped me understand how PCC changed/grew.
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Does anyone know if courses 1,3 & 5 at PHCC are Ross courses with original Ross greens or are those courses more the work of Ellis Maples?
I'm trying to figure out how much original Ross is really left at the resort courses?
#1 - Ross? Anyone else?
#2 - Ross
#3 - Ross Anyone else?
#4 - Hanse
#5 - Ross? Anyone else?
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
John, I've wondered the same thing since I first visited. I love playing #1 and #3 but PCC is so attached to the legacy of Ross the bastardization of #1 and #3 is best left unsaid.
Chris Buie and Ran probably know the answers.
I suggest The Legendary Evolution of Pinehurst by Richard Mandell. The aerials helped me understand how PCC changed/grew.
Peter,
You are correct, Richard Mandell's books(both editions) provide detail about evolution of Pinehurst courses.
Based on the aerials it looks like there may be 13 "Ross" holes left on #1.
A sad quote from Mandell's books regarding the work done in 1950s and 1960s: "When expansion was complete, only Number 2 remained fully intact and sixteen Pinehurst Ross holes were lost forever."
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Tyler, I created and built the greens on course #3 you attribute to Kyle Franz. The work occurred in the winter of 2016/2017 and was done with the help of Blake Conant, along with Pinehurst superintendent Kevin Robinson and his crew. We also redid what is now the final hole on course 5.
John,
The building of the Cradle caused some changed to course No. 3, and I believe the greens on the course can be attributed the following;
No. 1 - 2: Franz
No. 3 - 5: Ross
No. 6: Maples
No. 7 - 8: Franz
No. 9 - 11: Maples
No. 12 - 18: Ross
Tyler
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Tyler, I created and built the greens on course #3 you attribute to Kyle Franz. The work occurred in the winter of 2016/2017 and was done with the help of Blake Conant, along with Pinehurst superintendent Kevin Robinson and his crew. We also redid what is now the final hole on course 5.
John,
The building of the Cradle caused some changed to course No. 3, and I believe the greens on the course can be attributed the following;
No. 1 - 2: Franz
No. 3 - 5: Ross
No. 6: Maples
No. 7 - 8: Franz
No. 9 - 11: Maples
No. 12 - 18: Ross
Tyler
Kye,
I'd love to hear your thoughts on adding the new greens on holes #1, 2, 7, and 8 on Course 3 with regards to a general philosophy of trying to blend with existing green complexes vs making your own stamp on the golf course.
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The building of the Cradle caused some changed to course No. 3, and I believe the greens on the course can be attributed the following;
No. 1 - 2: Franz
No. 3 - 5: Ross
No. 6: Maples
No. 7 - 8: Franz
No. 9 - 11: Maples
No. 12 - 18: Ross
Tyler
Tyler:
I think holes 14 & 15 may be Maples (I agree on all the others).
Dean
Agreed on holes 14 & 15 and take note of Kye Golbys contributions which I observed under construction. Kye's certainly stand out against the backdrop of Ross and Maples greens. Hard to orient at times as the routing of the 1st hole has changed I believe 3/4 times in the past 6 or so years.
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Tyler, I created and built the greens on course #3 you attribute to Kyle Franz. The work occurred in the winter of 2016/2017 and was done with the help of Blake Conant, along with Pinehurst superintendent Kevin Robinson and his crew. We also redid what is now the final hole on course 5.
John,
The building of the Cradle caused some changed to course No. 3, and I believe the greens on the course can be attributed the following;
No. 1 - 2: Franz
No. 3 - 5: Ross
No. 6: Maples
No. 7 - 8: Franz
No. 9 - 11: Maples
No. 12 - 18: Ross
Tyler
Kye,
My apologies, and great work on those greens!!
Tyler