Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: mike_beene on April 19, 2023, 10:50:14 PM
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Thoughts on his work. Inverness, Congressional or elsewhere.
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I’m a Flynnophile and look forward to seeing The Naval Academy and he must be hot because now he is doing Indian Creek.
Here in Philly he cut his teeth on Sunnybrook which is a very solid course.
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I have played the following five redo's by Andrew Green...and had played all 5 prior to his work (although in some cases decades earlier):
Inverness (OH)
Congressional-Blue (MD)
Wannaimoisett (RI)
Scioto (OH)
Oak Hill-East (NY)
All five efforts IMO are absolutely superb. I had all but given up on two of these five (Congressional and Oak Hill) and those two transformations are really incredible.
His work at Inverness I think may be his best...and the work at Scioto may be his boldest. In fact...I sense that he has gotten bolder with each job (which given the generally high reviews he has received is not surprising). I believe the chron order of these five is Oak Hill, Inverness, Congressional, Wannamoisett, and Scioto. I would note that all of the above are bent grass but note that he just finished work at Indian Creek (FL) which I am playing later this week (last played about 25 years ago) and which is obviously Bermuda. Do not think he has designed an original course yet but I have heard he will be doing that sort of effort in Michigan (am not at liberty to reveal course name) basically bulldozing the current course and rebuilding on that land plus an additional parcel next door that has been acquired.
In summary, I think he is the "leader of the pack" of the generation that is following Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/ Hanse (listed in alpha order).
His next test may well be whether he has the discipline to not get overloaded with too many commitments...or the ability to really staff up with first rate talent.
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I thought he did a nice job at Congressional. Not overly excited about the pictures from Indian Creek though:
(https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/images/IndianCreek-2_web.jpg)
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I thought he did a nice job at Congressional. Not overly excited about the pictures from Indian Creek though:
(https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/images/IndianCreek-2_web.jpg)
Michael- have you played Indian Creek prior to the work? This hole looks better to me and overall it appears they have opened up the vistas and restored many original features. I have heard good things so far from those that have played before and after.
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Whitemarsh Valley CC and Manasquan River GC don’t seem to get talked about as much as some of the more high profile clubs he has worked at but are both a joy to play.
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He's starting on East Lake after the Tour Championship, and it's supposedly going to be a pretty significant renovation. I believe they're moving several greens.
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Whitemarsh Valley CC and Manasquan River GC don’t seem to get talked about as much as some of the more high profile clubs he has worked at but are both a joy to play.
Tim,
Is he responsible for the infinity green on the short Par 3?
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Whitemarsh Valley CC and Manasquan River GC don’t seem to get talked about as much as some of the more high profile clubs he has worked at but are both a joy to play.
Tim,
Is he responsible for the infinity green on the short Par 3?
Tim-That’s the 9th and a great little hole. I can’t speak to what was behind that green in the way of trees before his involvement although there isn’t much room behind it until you get to that club road. The Philly guys would probably have the answer.
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He’s going to be doing the Union League In Philly and I’m sure it’s going to be amazing !
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He’s going to be doing the Union League In Philly and I’m sure it’s going to be amazing !
Rick,
I think that that land can support a great course.
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My home club, the Foundry in Powhatan Virginia, recently engaged him to do bunker and master plan work. He did previous work with the Foundry when he worked for McDonald and Sons. I think he did a fantastic job at Congressional from the limited amount that I've seen.
Looking forward to seeing more of his work.
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In summary, I think he is the "leader of the pack" of the generation that is following Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/ Hanse (listed in alpha order).
I like what I have seen of his rework. Where I become confused with so many on this site is how this type of work is compared with Doak, Coore,Hanse etc. Reworking an existing vs. routing your own are two entirely different exercises...can you explain?
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I believe Inverness was the commission that got him all the rest. It came first.
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My home club, the Foundry in Powhatan Virginia, recently engaged him to do bunker and master plan work. He did previous work with the Foundry when he worked for McDonald and Sons. I think he did a fantastic job at Congressional from the limited amount that I've seen.
Looking forward to seeing more of his work.
Bill, that's an interesting course, though never played. We did some recruiting at the AJGA there and appeared to have a ton of variety. Interesting routing.
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Whitemarsh Valley CC and Manasquan River GC don’t seem to get talked about as much as some of the more high profile clubs he has worked at but are both a joy to play.
Tim,
Is he responsible for the infinity green on the short Par 3?
Tim-That’s the 9th and a great little hole. I can’t speak to what was behind that green in the way of trees before his involvement although there isn’t much room behind it until you get to that club road. The Philly guys would probably have the answer.
Tim:
I played the course in the early 1980s and there were trees behind the green.
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In summary, I think he is the "leader of the pack" of the generation that is following Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/ Hanse (listed in alpha order).
I like what I have seen of his rework. Where I become confused with so many on this site is how this type of work is compared with Doak, Coore,Hanse etc. Reworking an existing vs. routing your own are two entirely different exercises...can you explain?
Mike--
Fair comment. Do not think he has done an original course yet...although as I mentioned believe he is starting one in Michigan soon (essentailly new). So "leader of pack regarding retro/reno" would be more accurate description of what I think.
Paul
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I believe Inverness was the commission that got him all the rest. It came first.
You may be correct Ronald, but if I recall correctly he was hired by Oak Hill, which the entire world will get to see in a few weeks when they host the PGA Championship, before Inverness. I think Oak Hill led to Inverness, then Inverness led to all that have followed.
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I will be interviewing Andrew Green for my podcast on the History and Restoration of Oak Hill CC. I think most of you will find it fascinating because I will be walking through all of the changes that were made to Oak Hill that drifted from Ross’ original plans.
Then Andrew will discuss how he restored each hole, followed by a bit of history behind each hole.
Should be a good listen.
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In summary, I think he is the "leader of the pack" of the generation that is following Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/ Hanse (listed in alpha order).
Also listed by age, oldest to youngest. ;) :D
There are a ton of people doing really good work these days. Anointing anyone the leader of the pack is kind of silly. But, yes, Andrew is definitely one of the busiest guys in restoration / renovation now that some of us have moved back to doing new courses.
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He also redid Bidermann in Delaware —
I only play there once or twice a year, but his renovations (tree removal, redoing bunkers), was quite evident.
As a some time visitor to the course, it felt like he picked the right trees to prune and remove. He didn’t overdo it or under do it.
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Mike M,
Union League definitely is a nice piece of property and will be better when Andrew is done . I was over there this month they are working on a par 3 course
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Played Indian Creek today. This has to be fairly brief as I am on a plane that will depart soon.
Had last played Indian Creek about 25 years ago and did not remember much of the course (but sure did remember #12 and #13). I found it interesting in comparison to the work he did at Scioto, Congressional and Oak Hill...those three are big and bold...Indian Creek is very subtle IMO...brilliantly so and he really brought it back to wonderful life without reducing the subtlety. I sense it shows a real ability to adapt his work to the origins of the original course. Subtle but you better beware of your angles, options and the changing slopes on the greens
Another superb job IMO.
Stewardess saying something about large electronic equipment...off to Sao Paulo Brazil and then Rio
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I thought he did a nice job at Congressional. Not overly excited about the pictures from Indian Creek though:
(https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/images/IndianCreek-2_web.jpg)
Michael- have you played Indian Creek prior to the work? This hole looks better to me and overall it appears they have opened up the vistas and restored many original features. I have heard good things so far from those that have played before and after.
I guess this is 13. Why the extra bunkers? Were they considered necessary to improve the hole? I loved course prior to the redo but can't really make a fair assessment without seeing the rest. The location and numbers of bunkers on the original seemed pretty near perfect.
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He is working at Interlachen CC in Edina, MN this year.
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In summary, I think he is the "leader of the pack" of the generation that is following Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/ Hanse (listed in alpha order).
Although I agree with the premise that Andrew Green's work on the courses you've mentioned is truly superb, your "leader of the pack" comment is far from accurate and mostly absurd.
Work by the likes of Brian Schneider, Mike DeVries, King & Collins, Kye Goalby, Jackson & Kahn, Kyle Franz, Beau Welling, Keith Rhebb, Riley Johns, etc., Mike's Nuzzo and Young are all equal to the caliber and quality of Andrew Green. The golf architecture world is lucky to have such talent-laden group of successors to rely on. Perhaps you ought to find a way to examine more closely the work these folks are presenting than simply doing a "hit and run" along your way to next box on the spreadsheet?
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Our family was at Tryall Club in Jamaica a few years ago.
Thought he did an amazing job there.
That's the time that I showed up on a Sunday am looking to play golf and there was PGA Lain America Tour event that I was not aware of.
So, I entered as an amateur and teed off at the Jamaican Open....;-)...with 30 minutes notice.
My playing partners were Brad Arrington and Mike Herrera and they joined us for dinner that night.
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Our family was at Tryall Club in Jamaica a few years ago.
Thought he did an amazing job there.
That's the time that I showed up on a Sunday am looking to play golf and there was PGA Lain America Tour event that I was not aware of.
So, I entered as an amateur and teed off at the Jamaican Open....;-)...with 30 minutes notice.
My playing partners were Brad Arrington and Mike Herrera and they joined us for dinner that night.
I don’t ever remember you mentioning that before. ;) That’s when you waved at all the putts because you didn’t want to hold anybody up right?
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The U.S. Naval Academy Course was an amazing renovation. The green complexes are really interesting and very bold in places. Used several very harsh false fronts.
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In summary, I think he is the "leader of the pack" of the generation that is following Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/ Hanse (listed in alpha order).
I like what I have seen of his rework. Where I become confused with so many on this site is how this type of work is compared with Doak, Coore,Hanse etc. Reworking an existing vs. routing your own are two entirely different exercises...can you explain?
Mike Young: Valid point.
You're taunting...
but you're still right. :D
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In summary, I think he is the "leader of the pack" of the generation that is following Coore/Crenshaw/Doak/ Hanse (listed in alpha order).
Although I agree with the premise that Andrew Green's work on the courses you've mentioned is truly superb, your "leader of the pack" comment is far from accurate and mostly absurd.
Work by the likes of Brian Schneider, Mike DeVries, King & Collins, Kye Goalby, Jackson & Kahn, Kyle Franz, Beau Welling, Keith Rhebb, Riley Johns, etc., Mike's Nuzzo and Young are all equal to the caliber and quality of Andrew Green. The golf architecture world is lucky to have such talent-laden group of successors to rely on. Perhaps you ought to find a way to examine more closely the work these folks are presenting than simply doing a "hit and run" along your way to next box on the spreadsheet?
Agree with Steve here. Scratch building vs. restoration present different art and engineering challenges.
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He is beginning work at Interlachen CC in Edina, MN this year.
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I will be interviewing Andrew Green for my podcast on the History and Restoration of Oak Hill CC. I think most of you will find it fascinating because I will be walking through all of the changes that were made to Oak Hill that drifted from Ross’ original plans.
Then Andrew will discuss how he restored each hole, followed by a bit of history behind each hole.
Should be a good listen.
Listened last night. I HIGHLY recommend this episode, and I very much look forward to the 2nd nine episode.
https://talkingolf.com/episode-102-tgh-102-the-restoration-of-oak-hill-the-front-9/
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I will be interviewing Andrew Green for my podcast on the History and Restoration of Oak Hill CC. I think most of you will find it fascinating because I will be walking through all of the changes that were made to Oak Hill that drifted from Ross’ original plans.
Then Andrew will discuss how he restored each hole, followed by a bit of history behind each hole.
Should be a good listen.
Listened last night. I HIGHLY recommend this episode, and I very much look forward to the 2nd nine episode.
https://talkingolf.com/episode-102-tgh-102-the-restoration-of-oak-hill-the-front-9/ (https://talkingolf.com/episode-102-tgh-102-the-restoration-of-oak-hill-the-front-9/)
Bill, happy to hear you enjoyed it. Hope to have the back nine of the Restoration of Oak Hill out next weekend. Andrew was awesome on the podcast.
Quick question for you- was it too much having me list all the changes made by RTJ and the Fazios? I felt like I just showed up and throwed up.
Connor
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I will be interviewing Andrew Green for my podcast on the History and Restoration of Oak Hill CC. I think most of you will find it fascinating because I will be walking through all of the changes that were made to Oak Hill that drifted from Ross’ original plans.
Then Andrew will discuss how he restored each hole, followed by a bit of history behind each hole.
Should be a good listen.
I enjoyed the podcast as well. I'm glad that the work that RTJ, Sr. did in 1955 was included. Most folks probably don't realize how much work he did on that course to get it ready for the '56 Open. His work there is an important part of the historical evolution of the course.
I played there in the fall of '21 and loved everything that was done, especially getting rid of the dreaded Fazio holes. The only thing I wish they had done was moved the 18th green back to its original position which was about 30 yards further back than the current version. It wasn't done because they wanted bleachers where the original green used to be. It's too bad because some older members of the club have mentioned to me that it was one the best greens on the entire property.
Looking forward to listening to the 2nd part of the podcast.
Listened last night. I HIGHLY recommend this episode, and I very much look forward to the 2nd nine episode.
https://talkingolf.com/episode-102-tgh-102-the-restoration-of-oak-hill-the-front-9/ (https://talkingolf.com/episode-102-tgh-102-the-restoration-of-oak-hill-the-front-9/)
Bill, happy to hear you enjoyed it. Hope to have the back nine of the Restoration of Oak Hill out next weekend. Andrew was awesome on the podcast.
Quick question for you- was it too much having me list all the changes made by RTJ and the Fazios? I felt like I just showed up and throwed up.
Connor
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Earlier on this thread I stated my opinion that Andrew Green has become the “leader of the pack” of architects in the generation following Messrs. Coore, Doak and Hanse (yes, listed in alphabetical order). That generated some strong responses.
[/size]This past week Golf Digest published a long article by Derek Duncan regarding Green’s restoration work at Oak Hill and the classic tracks. In the first paragraph of that article Duncan says that Green “in a short period has become one of the most consequential designers in the business.” And today Links Magazine published an article by Joe Passov…saying “It took 15 years to become an overnight sensation, but the commissions and awards don’t lie: Low-key Andrew Green ranks among the best, most in-demand restoration specialists in the business”. Yes “leader” is not the same as “one of the” or “among the” …but one generation of designers is a smaller group than all designers or all of today’s practicing designers, etc. But I do agree that while he has proven his skills to be superb when it come to restorations/renovations…they have yet to be tested on a new course. Perhaps Kalamazoo CC will be his first “new” course.And with the passage of time and the release of recent Top 100 lists…there is further evidence of Green’s results. Four of his restorations have been on courses that for years have been regulars on USA and World Top 100 lists: Inverness, Oak Hill-East, Congressional-Blue, and Scioto. With the recent publication of Golf Digest’s 2023 USA 100, here is what the data show.Oak Hill—GOLF Mag USA—#43 in 2017…#37 in 2022. GolfWeek USA #69 in 2020 and #42 in 2022. Golf DigestUSA—#22 in 2019 …#22 in 2023. GOLF Mag—World #93 in 2017 and #76 in 2021.
Inverness—[/b]
GOLF Mag USA—#44 in 2017 and #33 in 2021; GolfWeek USA #50 in 2020 and #47 in 2022; Golf Digest USA—#89 in 2017…#58 in 2023; GOLF Mag—World #98 in 2017 and #65 in 2021
Congressional—[/b]
GOLF Mag USA—unranked in ‘20 and #55 in 2022;Golf Digest USA—#91 in 2021 and #73 in 2023
Scioto—[/b]
GOLF Mag USA—unranked in 2020 and #73 in 2022;Golf Digest USA—#68 in 2021 and #60 in 2023.Pretty strong record.Note that work at Congressional and Scioto completed too recently to be reflected in all the lists…and work at Indian Creek completed too late for any list published to date.In any case I firmly stand by my prior statement as regards restorations/renovations.
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Just watched a great interview with AG on TGC about Oak Hill restoration. He seems to be a great follower of Ross. Being on the West coast I had never heard of him before yesterday but his website indicates he is working with clients based in Los Angeles. Anybody know what projects he may be undertaking on the West coast? 8)
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Tim--
On our listing of new courses, restorations, and renovations (https://fescue.github.io) we have 17 projects with Green as architect (excluding those he has finished ending with Indian Creek). None of the 17 on on the West Coast...but perhaps the "clients" are on the west coast and own or manage a course elsewhere.
The 17 with anticipated opening years are:
2023:
Maryland G&CC
Bayville, VA
2024:
Oak Hill-West, NY
Union League-Torresdale, PA
Vacquero, TX
2025:
Kalamazoo CC, MI (New Course)
New Canaan, CT
Cherokee Town & Ctry-Town, GA
East Lake, GA
Kansas City CC, KS
Elkridge, MD
Interlachen, MN
2026:
Houston CC, TX
Mountain Ridge, NJ
Chevy Chase, MD
Cherokee Town & Ctry-Country. GA
2027:
Wyoming, PA
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How about Oak Hill?
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/05/15/pga-championship-oak-hill-country-club-andrew-green-golden-era-architecture/
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Steve--
My list of 17 was defined as "we have 17 projects with Green as architect (excluding those he has finished ending with Indian Creek)"
[/size][/color]
[/size]so it excluded all the projects he has already completed[/color][/size]:[/color]Indian Creek (FL)
[/color]Scioto (OH)[/font][/color]Congressional-Blue (MD)[/font][/color]Wannamoisett (RI)[/font][/color]Oak Hill-East (NY)[/font][/color]Whitemarsh Valley (PA)[/font][/color]
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Tim--
On our listing of new courses, restorations, and renovations (https://fescue.github.io (https://fescue.github.io)) we have 17 projects with Green as architect (excluding those he has finished ending with Indian Creek). None of the 17 on on the West Coast...but perhaps the "clients" are on the west coast and own or manage a course elsewhere.
The 17 with anticipated opening years are:
2023:
Maryland G&CC
Bayville, VA
2024:
Oak Hill-West, NY
Union League-Torresdale, PA
Vacquero, TX
2025:
Kalamazoo CC, MI (New Course)
New Canaan, CT
Cherokee Town & Ctry-Town, GA
East Lake, GA
Kansas City CC, KS
Elkridge, MD
Interlachen, MN
2026:
Houston CC, TX
Mountain Ridge, NJ
Chevy Chase, MD
Cherokee Town & Ctry-Country. GA
2027:
Wyoming, PA
Paul-
Are you sure about the work at Oak Hill West be completed in 2024? I talked to a couple of members that told me that there has only been some tentative plans to due a west course restoration but nothing concrete as of yet.
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More on Andrew Green and acorns:
https://www.globalgolfpost.com/featured/oak-hill-the-planting-of-a-masterpiece/ (https://www.globalgolfpost.com/featured/oak-hill-the-planting-of-a-masterpiece/)
(https://www.globalgolfpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/GettyImages-1490972984.jpg)Even the tee markers are mindful of the Oak Hill acorns.