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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Niall C on March 24, 2023, 09:29:20 AM

Title: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Niall C on March 24, 2023, 09:29:20 AM
On the new Cabot Highlands course thread there was some adverse comments on the naming of the course (for those that aren't aware it used to be known as Castle Stuart) or I suppose to be more exact the branding as a Cabot course. Rather than derail a thread on the development of the new course any further I thought best to bring the naming of new courses into a separate thread.


The main objection to the naming of Castle Stuart, sorry Cabot Highlands, seemed to be was naming it as part of a chain ie. Trump Bedminster, Trump Turnberry etc. Donal also expressed a preference to see the course named after the place/local landmark which I have to say I'm in favour of as well. Of course that works OK as long as the course isn't built on Dung Hill or Boghead Farm.


Perhaps you like your course name to have a Scottish tinge or maybe Highland Glen Country Club sounds a bit too hokey ? Certainly I think I'd make a point of NOT playing Stoatin Brae just because of the name. Then there is naming the course with a nod to a classic course ie. Muirfield Village, but maybe that just invites unkind comparisons ?


Clearly, it's a tricky business naming a new course, but I'm sure the combined brains trust of GCA will come up with the right formula. Here's hoping !


Niall
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 24, 2023, 10:04:48 AM
Names are hard!  Best example:  for the first several months of construction, Pacific Dunes was slated to be called Sand Valley, which did not capture its merits at all . . . but it took a visitor to say "why don't you name it after that ocean?" for everyone to suddenly catch on.


When we were building Old Macdonald, everyone thought the name was silly [because of the nursery rhyme] and it would hold the course back . . . but I said then that if the course was good enough, the name would be fine, and I think that worked out.


I've also learned that it's the client's business, not mine.  There are at least three or four of my courses that have names I don't really like, but unless you can come up with something better, it's wise to hold one's tongue.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 10:04:53 AM
This is a cool topic. It's got to be tough to do well, simply owing to all the fairly lame golf course names out there.
When my family were thinking about building a course a long time back, I had dozens of possibilities written down in a notebook. Didn't really like any of them a whole lot.


In the end, the best policy is probably to tie it to the sense of place in some way. Yes, a lot of these names will be somewhat ho-hum, but better that than outright embarrassing. My favorite course name (and logo) is Mid Ocean Club.


If you want to be cool, and your course is a club, leave off both "country" and "golf" like Mid Ocean Club or Cypress Point Club, much cooler.  ;)
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Will Lozier on March 24, 2023, 10:12:05 AM
Certainly I think I'd make a point of NOT playing Stoatin Brae just because of the name.


I think this is actually a pretty cool name...and judge this declaration to be pretty silly.


Cheers
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 10:16:58 AM
Pacific Dunes was slated to be called Sand Valley


I believe it, but wow, it was right there!




Maybe what we need is one of those setups where your golf course name is chosen based on your birth month and the first letter of your middle name. (You could end up with Moon Moon Golf Club!)
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Niall C on March 24, 2023, 10:35:38 AM
Certainly I think I'd make a point of NOT playing Stoatin Brae just because of the name.


I think this is actually a pretty cool name...and judge this declaration to be pretty silly.


Cheers


Will


I strongly suspect you're not Scottish and have no idea what the words mean. I do confess though, not playing a course because of the name is perhaps overkill but trust me, if you're Scottish it's really very naff.


Niall
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 10:42:21 AM
Certainly I think I'd make a point of NOT playing Stoatin Brae just because of the name.


I think this is actually a pretty cool name...and judge this declaration to be pretty silly.


Cheers


Will


I strongly suspect you're not Scottish and have no idea what the words mean. I do confess though, not playing a course because of the name is perhaps overkill but trust me, if you're Scottish it's really very naff.


Niall




What does it mean then?




Also, what is/are your favorite course name(s)?
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Marty Bonnar on March 24, 2023, 10:43:06 AM
Day ja view!:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66198.msg1579857.html#msg1579857 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66198.msg1579857.html#msg1579857)
 ;D
F.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Ben Stephens on March 24, 2023, 10:44:25 AM
I like course names relevant to the area. 'Americanised' or brand names not really. 'Turnberry' is better than 'Trump Turnberry'


Rutland Water Golf Club has two courses named Hambleton course and Normanton course dedicated to villages that disappeared when the lake was built in the mid 1970s. Hambleton course has holes facing Upper Hambleton and the Normanton course has some holes facing Normanton church which is part flooded by the water.


https://www.discover-rutland.co.uk/listing/normanton-church/ (https://www.discover-rutland.co.uk/listing/normanton-church/)


Local people refer RWGC as Manton as its near Manton village.

Most true Wales rugby fans call the Principality Stadium (formerly Millienium Stadium) 'the Arms Park' probably likewise for Irish rugby fans refer Aviva Stadium as Landsdowne.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Niall C on March 24, 2023, 10:44:58 AM

When we were building Old Macdonald, everyone thought the name was silly [because of the nursery rhyme] and it would hold the course back . . . but I said then that if the course was good enough, the name would be fine, and I think that worked out.



Tom


Totally agree. Over a period of time the course and the name become almost synonymous. Harking back to the Muirfield example, when you think of the derivation of the name it isn't very inspiring but mention it now to a golfer and it simply conjures up the image of a great course.


Niall
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Will Lozier on March 24, 2023, 11:27:29 AM
Certainly I think I'd make a point of NOT playing Stoatin Brae just because of the name.


I think this is actually a pretty cool name...and judge this declaration to be pretty silly.


Cheers


Will


I strongly suspect you're not Scottish and have no idea what the words mean. I do confess though, not playing a course because of the name is perhaps overkill but trust me, if you're Scottish it's really very naff.


Niall




Niall,


You are correct. But I do know what it means and it seems to fit the property on which the course has been built. I get the criticism of giving a Scottish name to an American course and I am not a fan of the brand involved in the name - and I HATE the flippant use of "Links" on 99% of those using that word in their name - but I don't find Stoatin Brae to be so offensive.


Are you sure that is the correct use of "naff"?  ;)


Cheers,
Will
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Ira Fishman on March 24, 2023, 11:45:48 AM
A personal favorite is the West Links at North Berwick because there is no East Links. I am sure that there is an interesting backstory.


Ira
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 11:50:20 AM
A personal favorite is the West Links at North Berwick because there is no East Links. I am sure that there is an interesting backstory.


Ira




Maybe there's an East Links that just happens to not have a golf course on it?
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on March 24, 2023, 11:57:13 AM
Tom's correct, names are hard.

Naming a new course at a new property is challenging because the paper you start with is blank. Naming a new course at an existing property is either significantly easier or significantly harder because the paper you start with is no longer blank.

When I work with clients on developing an identity for a new course, there is a strong emphasis on developing sense of place for the property. Grounding the course identity to the place makes it easier to position and market the course and develop stronger brand appreciation with the final customer. Often this starts off with factors such as geography, history, ecology, etc.. But a sense of place can also be experiential or spiritually based, especially if the client is wanting to create a specific tone around the course.

If the new course will operate under an already existing umbrella, a portion of the courses place has already been established. From a branding perspective, there needs to be a good reason to move away from from that branding convention. Thus, why the bulk of the Cabot courses are all named similarly.

Are the Cabot names groundbreaking? Do they generate an emotional response that drives action? Not so much.
Are the Easy to understand? Is there an expected level of quality that is derived from the name? Yes
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Marty Bonnar on March 24, 2023, 12:00:19 PM
A personal favorite is the West Links at North Berwick because there is no East Links. I am sure that there is an interesting backstory.


Ira




Maybe there's an East Links that just happens to not have a golf course on it?


Ahem…
https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/ (https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/)
Cheers,
F.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Ben Stephens on March 24, 2023, 12:09:17 PM
Wasn't St Patricks on the land of Magheremagorgan Links by Eddie Hackett  - which is a unique name and hard to pronounce! and the Tra Mor Links by Joanne O-Haire. Aren't they local names? - calling Donal!

St Patricks is relatively straightforward and easier to pronounce. I have to say not a wow name or unique name related to things locally.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 12:17:56 PM
A personal favorite is the West Links at North Berwick because there is no East Links. I am sure that there is an interesting backstory.


Ira




Maybe there's an East Links that just happens to not have a golf course on it?


Ahem…
https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/ (https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/)
Cheers,
F.




So the North Berwick Golf Club is on the West Links and the Glen Golf Club is on the East Links?
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Adam Lawrence on March 24, 2023, 12:20:22 PM
Stoatin Brae gets on my wick because the club claims it is Gaelic, which it clearly isn't -- it is Lowland Scots. I've explained this in great detail to the guy who does their PR, but it doesn't seem to have got through, because the website still claims it is Gaelic.

I think it's a stupid, affected name anyway, but if you're going to be affected, at least be accurate.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Niall C on March 24, 2023, 12:29:57 PM
With regards North Berwick, I understand the area before you get to the Glen GC was/is the East Links and golf was indeed played on it at one point.


Niall
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on March 24, 2023, 12:31:00 PM
Whenever someone tells me they played Portmarnock Links, they invariably follow it up with a comment of the form "no it wasn't the championship/famous/big course". They could have named it St. Marnock's Golf Club, as the 6th century church is on the site. They probably wouldn't be able to avoid comparisons totally, especially when you have such an established course next door, but it could have lessened the now obligatory clarification every time. The follow-up comment in this case could have been a bit less negative, i.e. "the course next to Portmarnock Golf Club".


Or better still, call it Jameson's, as I believe the distiller John Jameson had some connection to the site, and may have lived in the old house, which is now part of the hotel.


I'm also not a fan of naming courses by colour, for example when you have 27/36/54/.., etc holes on the same property. I just can never remember the colour. I think Portmarnock's third nine is yellow, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 12:31:38 PM
if you're going to be affected, at least be accurate.




That's the key isn't it.




Another one I've always liked was Myopia. Makes me glad that the founders had bad eyesight rather than IBS or something.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Marty Bonnar on March 24, 2023, 12:33:13 PM
A personal favorite is the West Links at North Berwick because there is no East Links. I am sure that there is an interesting backstory.


Ira




Maybe there's an East Links that just happens to not have a golf course on it?


Ahem…
https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/ (https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/)
Cheers,
F.




So the North Berwick Golf Club is on the West Links and the Glen Golf Club is on the East Links?


The West Links are also home to the Tantallon Club. They have their own clubhouse to the rear of the NB Club. Simple!
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Brad Tufts on March 24, 2023, 12:37:38 PM
if you're going to be affected, at least be accurate.




That's the key isn't it.




Another one I've always liked was Myopia. Makes me glad that the founders had bad eyesight rather than IBS or something.


Trots Farm...could work on multiple levels!


The venerable "Rat & Trumpet Club" takes the piss pretty well also.  :)
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 24, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
Stoatin Brae gets on my wick because the club claims it is Gaelic, which it clearly isn't -- it is Lowland Scots. I've explained this in great detail to the guy who does their PR, but it doesn't seem to have got through, because the website still claims it is Gaelic.

I think it's a stupid, affected name anyway, but if you're going to be affected, at least be accurate.

Adam,

I wish it was limited to just this...I can deal with a name.

But my pet peeve is the endless courses over here that describe themselves as "Scottish Links" because it mostly comprises open areas with little to no trees. Never mind the course plays thru housing tracts with ponds, lush manicured rough, soft greens, etc, etc.  Ugggghh...
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on March 24, 2023, 01:09:06 PM
Wasn't St Patricks on the land of Magheremagorgan Links by Eddie Hackett  - which is a unique name and hard to pronounce! and the Tra Mor Links by Joanne O-Haire. Aren't they local names? - calling Donal!

St Patricks is relatively straightforward and easier to pronounce. I have to say not a wow name or unique name related to things locally.


That's correct Ben. The "Trá Mór" means the large/big beach. You'll find several Trá Mór instances throughout Ireland, and even  Tramore Golf Club.  Here's an explanation for Magheramagorgan: Machaire Mhic Shamhradháin/Magheramagorgan | logainm.ie (https://www.logainm.ie/en/15731)

There is a St. Patrick's Golf Club, which used to be called Downpatrick Golf Club. I think think they changed name in the last 20 years.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Ben Stephens on March 24, 2023, 01:40:15 PM
Whenever someone tells me they played Portmarnock Links, they invariably follow it up with a comment of the form "no it wasn't the championship/famous/big course". They could have named it St. Marnock's Golf Club, as the 6th century church is on the site. They probably wouldn't be able to avoid comparisons totally, especially when you have such an established course next door, but it could have lessened the now obligatory clarification every time. The follow-up comment in this case could have been a bit less negative, i.e. "the course next to Portmarnock Golf Club".


Or better still, call it Jameson's, as I believe the distiller John Jameson had some connection to the site, and may have lived in the old house, which is now part of the hotel.


I'm also not a fan of naming courses by colour, for example when you have 27/36/54/.., etc holes on the same property. I just can never remember the colour. I think Portmarnock's third nine is yellow, but I'm not sure.


There is a lot going on at Portmarnock Links with work done by Jeff Lynch EIGCA of reGolf - it will be interesting to see the different course when it is completed - St Marnocks or Jamieson Links would probably make is stand out more as the name clashes with its Neighbour. Like Notts GC and Nottinghamshire GC (Dont mention it to Boony!!) that Notts GC has now reverted to Hollinwell
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on March 24, 2023, 01:48:17 PM
There is a long ago thread where someone called me out for allowing such a bad course name.  I replied that "the next course I get to name will be my first course I get to name."


In reality, I eventually did name a few courses, including the obvious "Quarry at Giant's Ridge."  They actually hadn't decided on a name, but I kept referring to it as the Quarry in press conferences, and it sort of stuck. 


I also named two courses, both "the Wilderness."  Down in Lake Jackson, TX, they were going to name it after an old council person, which I didn't feel was appropriate for the quality of the course (has any course named Gus Brown Muni ever been good?)  The course was located in Wilderness park, so I thought it sounded good and was a natural for local folks to locate it.  The course faced years of lawsuits from the Sierra Club and I thought it was probably dead when the Fortune Bay project came up.  They were debating names when I excused myself to go to the restrooms, where I saw their slogan above the urinal "We put the wild in Wilderness."  I returned to the room, suggested it, and they loved it, so there it was.  Naturally, the LJ course won it's lawsuits and we started construction on both courses at the same time. 


Had the LJ project also made the Golf Digest "Best New" list (it barely finished out of the list) I am sure I would have had some questions about having the Wilderness as my go-to standard name......


Short version, gca's usually don't have a say.  And, similar to Tom, my feeling always was they pick the name, and I make sure the course makes it a worthy one by being a worthy course.  I mean, is "Pine Valley" really that great a name or is it now because of it's association with the course?
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Tom Dunne on March 24, 2023, 01:56:00 PM
It would be a shame to pass on Stoatin Brae for the name. The Renaissance guys did a great job there--it's a fun, interesting golf course with plenty of exciting shots to be had. It was developed by the Scott family, who own the Gull Lake View resort complex up the street and who represent a lot of what's good about DIY "mom & pop" golf--a sector of the American golf scene that is perhaps not as prevalent as it was 30-40 years ago.


Plus, Kalamazoo is a fun town, with good live music at Bell's Brewery. I had a great time there. If you think the name's cheesy, just don't buy the hat--but the golf itself is worthwhile. 
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Forrest Richardson on March 24, 2023, 02:02:51 PM
I hold a different "policy" than Tom D, likely a result of my background in branding and design for clients such as Disney, Hilton, NewsCorp, AT&T and many smaller entities. When I first began doodling courses as a 10 year old kid, I named the holes AND the courses. One was Hinterland Castle.

We've had good success with naming. Probably as many as a dozen built courses thus far — including many club crests and logos. Occasionally we "miss the mark", and I've learned to crawl back to my "day job" and move on. One was "Old Man West" ...eventually named The Hideout (Utah), and while not original, probably a better choice. (Old Man West came from a hermit who lived on the property for 20+ years...he was known as "Old Man West" based on both being old and also living on the west side of the ranch.)

Here's a link to some of what we've done over the years in this lane: 
http://www.golfgroupltd.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/RD-Golf-Branding-Marketing.pdf (http://www.golfgroupltd.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/RD-Golf-Branding-Marketing.pdf)
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 02:13:01 PM
they pick the name, and I make sure the course makes it a worthy one by being a worthy course.  I mean, is "Pine Valley" really that great a name or is it now because of it's association with the course?




That's really all you can do I'd figure. And yes, Pine Valley (to the extent that it's a cool name) is cool because the course is great.




That said, I think a name is still important. Compare Stoatin Brae with the more typical (say) The Prairie Course at Gull Lake View or something to that effect. I'm not certain that the more common type of name would increase my desire to go there.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: David_Tepper on March 24, 2023, 02:37:14 PM
I used to think golfers would complain about anything. Now I think they will complain about everything. ;)
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 24, 2023, 02:44:43 PM

Trots Farm...could work on multiple levels!


The venerable "Rat & Trumpet Club" takes the piss pretty well also.  :)




Good one by the way!
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on March 24, 2023, 05:42:20 PM
A personal favorite is the West Links at North Berwick because there is no East Links. I am sure that there is an interesting backstory.


Ira




Maybe there's an East Links that just happens to not have a golf course on it?


Ahem…
https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/ (https://www.glengolfclub.co.uk/)
Cheers,
F.




So the North Berwick Golf Club is on the West Links and the Glen Golf Club is on the East Links?


The West Links are also home to the Tantallon Club. They have their own clubhouse to the rear of the NB Club. Simple!

Well it would be that simple if only The West Links wasn't also home to North Berwick Ladies Golf Club and The Bass Rock Club! ;)
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Sean_A on March 24, 2023, 06:54:13 PM
Opened the Insta account, Cabot Citrus Farms photo was staring back at me. Oy vey.

The Ladies is no more. It combined with the (New) North Berwick GC which is the second oldest club in town. Their marketing date is a scam as you well know.

The East Links (misnomer) is the putting course, tennis courts and Glen GC.

Stoatin Brae makes sense for a course in Kzoo County if said county was in Scotland . If they wanted to get cute, why not use the language of the Native American tribe which previously occupied the land? Shit, Big Hill is a better name than pretentious Stoatin Brae.

Ciao
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: mike_beene on March 25, 2023, 11:13:00 PM
Country Club of Jackson should be Jackson Country Club.
But names are difficult. Ask the  Washington Commanders and Cleveland Guardians.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 29, 2023, 08:54:05 PM
Wasn't St Patricks on the land of Magheremagorgan Links by Eddie Hackett  - which is a unique name and hard to pronounce! and the Tra Mor Links by Joanne O-Haire. Aren't they local names? - calling Donal!

St Patricks is relatively straightforward and easier to pronounce. I have to say not a wow name or unique name related to things locally.


That's correct Ben. The "Trá Mór" means the large/big beach. You'll find several Trá Mór instances throughout Ireland, and even  Tramore Golf Club.  Here's an explanation for Magheramagorgan: Machaire Mhic Shamhradháin/Magheramagorgan | logainm.ie (https://www.logainm.ie/en/15731)

There is a St. Patrick's Golf Club, which used to be called Downpatrick Golf Club. I think think they changed name in the last 20 years.


I didn’t know about the “other” St Patrick’s GC when we started.  I hope no one goes there by mistake!  :D


But we sure as hell weren’t going to give the course a name that no one can pronounce.  If Joe Biden had to pronounce Magheramagorgan he would just keel over.


As for Stoatin Brae, the client who picked the name has passed away, so I think that one is locked in.  They are not marketing to people who live in Scotland, so it’s probably okay as it is.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on March 30, 2023, 06:00:59 PM
they were going to name it after an old council person, which I didn't feel was appropriate

I'm strongly opposed to naming things after people.  A muni in LA is named after a guy who shot his wife in the head.

I've never understood why we try to memorialize people, and think I have a pretty clear picture why someone wants to have their name brandished across something.
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: Tim Leahy on March 30, 2023, 06:35:42 PM
Being from CA I love the Spanish names like Pasatiempo, Palos Verdes, La Purisima, La Contenta, La Quinta and Rancho Murieta.
Also if the course has something unique about it like Torrey Pines it is cool. 8)
Title: Re: Probably OT - Naming New Golf Courses
Post by: archie_struthers on March 31, 2023, 08:21:50 PM
 :P


For me it was pretty easy !   As you would have to be nuts to build crazy dune fields on a flat piece of ground in NJ.