Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Michael Chadwick on March 16, 2023, 04:46:15 PM

Title: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *FINAL*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 16, 2023, 04:46:15 PM
Let's have some fun matching courses against each other, and allow ourselves (and all you lurkers!) to personally vote on winners until GCA crowns a national champion.

The seeding follows the most recent GOLF Magazine US list from 1 to 64. In hindsight I should've used Digest so that there could've been more early round upsets ;)    although I think there may still be a few surprises throughout the bracket.

The bracket can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E47H2P4KzGbJS3k9j2yzmwFUbwwZqhjhnge37NkOdL8/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E47H2P4KzGbJS3k9j2yzmwFUbwwZqhjhnge37NkOdL8/edit?usp=sharing)

Please use the below VOTING link to select a winner for each game. My two requests are that you 1.) Only fill out the form once per round, and 2.) Do not intentionally troll the voting.

EDIT: Voting is complete. The 2023 National Champion is Cypress Point.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 16, 2023, 06:25:56 PM
Would picking Princeton over Arizona be trolling?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 16, 2023, 06:31:59 PM
Would picking Princeton over Arizona be trolling?


Not when the higher seed, like U of A, has a penchant for underperforming!
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Tim Leahy on March 17, 2023, 01:22:00 AM
Olympic Lake is a 15 seed? Your out of your mind. Anyone that thinks there are 56 courses in the US better than Olympic Lake has no clue what a great golf course is. :o
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on March 17, 2023, 08:36:50 AM
Olympic Lake is a 15 seed? Your out of your mind. Anyone that thinks there are 56 courses in the US better than Olympic Lake has no clue what a great golf course is. :o


Tim clearly not a fan of the golf magazine rankings huh, which was stated as the basis for seedings.  The lake course is at 60, so 59 courses above it.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 17, 2023, 08:55:14 AM
Olympic Lake is a 15 seed? Your out of your mind. Anyone that thinks there are 56 courses in the US better than Olympic Lake has no clue what a great golf course is. :o


I must not have a clue, then.


P.S.  Also, Rock Creek v Pacific Dunes is an unfortunate draw.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 17, 2023, 10:56:11 AM
Rock Creek v Pacific Dunes is an unfortunate draw.


Agreed. Gil's newer designs also got tough opponents. CapRock with Augusta, Ohoopee with Cal.


So far, though, there is only one division that is skewing all chalk.


We've had about 80 respondents, keep it coming!
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Alex Miller on March 17, 2023, 01:41:13 PM
Some very intriguing matchups and a couple fun ones where I was fortunate enough to have played both. The two most interesting for me:


Garden City vs Bandon Trails - Won't give away which one I picked, but a fantastic matchup. I've long held BT in my top 2 at the resort and there are other seeds higher than GCGC which it would've easily beat out. Meanwhile GCGC is wonderful, perhaps without any non-minor flaws, and presents an interesting contrast in how a great course could be built on a seemingly random but good plot of reasonable links/heath land vs the BT adventure through multiple environments.


NGLA vs The Creek - Easier to give away as NGLA may be my personal favorite ever played, but my god I think The Creek is easily a top 8 seed if not higher. Would have been a heavy hitting second round matchup let alone first. The Creek not only is fantastic MacDonald architecture but has the feeling of a club you could spend a lot of time at. Bonus: the range hits to 6 template greens and can be played as a short course.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Dan_Callahan on March 17, 2023, 01:56:57 PM
If a frame my votes in the context of which courses I would most like to go back to, both Eastward Ho! and Myopia could end up doing some serious damage.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Tim Leahy on March 17, 2023, 05:54:27 PM
Olympic Lake is a 15 seed? Your out of your mind. Anyone that thinks there are 56 courses in the US better than Olympic Lake has no clue what a great golf course is. :o


I must not have a clue, then.


P.S.  Also, Rock Creek v Pacific Dunes is an unfortunate draw.
The USGA, PGA and Rider Cup people seem to agree with me.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 17, 2023, 06:20:21 PM
Considering that any course that I played moves past one that I haven’t. Olympic Lake earned a victory on my ballot. 15 seeds are killing it.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Stewart Abramson on March 17, 2023, 06:24:58 PM
Ballyneal vs Sleepy Hollow is a real tough call. They are two of my personal favorites. Both should have been able to make the sweet sixteen IMO
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 17, 2023, 06:29:17 PM
If its any consolation Tim,

I'm surprised Olympic was even in the top 100, much less the bracket.  ;D   I can think of a few others that shoulda been in the 64 instead
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 17, 2023, 07:42:51 PM
If its any consolation Tim,

I'm surprised Olympic was even in the top 100, much less the bracket.  ;D   I can think of a few others that shoulda been in the 64 instead


Kalen,


What courses have you played that you believe should be in the 64?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Max Prokopy on March 17, 2023, 09:47:40 PM
Thank you for setting this up.  I enjoyed going through the shrines I've seen and imagined ones not yet trodden.


I found the Myopia/TCC matchup serendipitous. 






Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 18, 2023, 01:01:46 AM
With over 100 responses, our Round of 64 is complete. Although there were not as many shocking upsets as the men's tournament, a few occurred, in addition to couple of very close matchups.

The breakdown of voting was as follows:

East Region
1. Pine Valley 98% > 16. Pikewood National 2%
8. Kiawah Island Ocean 53.3% > 9. Peachtree 46.7% CLOSE
5. Crystal Downs 93.5% > 12. Muirfield Village 6.5%
4. Winged Foot West 87.6% > 13. Honors Course 12.4%
6. Southern Hills 41.3% < 11. Yeamans Hall 58.7% UPSET
3. Pinehurst #2 90.7% > 14. Wade Hampton 9.3%
7. Garden City 54.7% > 10. Bandon Trails 46.2% CLOSE
2. Merion 98.1% > Olympic Lake 1.9%

West Region
1. Cypress Point 97.2% > Harbor Town 2.8%
8. Ballyneal 44.2% < Sleepy Hollow 55.8% UPSET (and a bad one if you ask me; I blame over-colorized photos of a particular par 3!)
5. Oakland Hills South 53.3% > 12. Quaker Ridge 46.7% CLOSE
4. Friar's Head 84% > 13. The Golf Club 16%
6. SFGC 83.2% > 11. Winged Foot East 16.8%
3. Pebble Beach 93.5% > 14. Congressional Blue 6.5%
7. Cal Club 58.7% > 10. Ohoopee 42.3%
2. Augusta National 89.6% > 15. CapRock Ranch 10.4%

South Region
1. Shinnecock 93.4% > 16. Essex County 6.6%
8. Bethpage Black 33% < 9. Camargo 67% UPSET
5. Prairie Dunes 78.3% > 12. Bandon Dunes 21.7%
4. Riviera 89.6% > 13. Sawgrass 10.4%
6. Brookline 50.9% > 11. Myopia 49.1% DOUBLE OVERTIME
3. LACC 91.5% > 14. Whistling Straits 8.5%
7. Somerset Hills 58.5% > 10. Old Town 41.5%
2. Sand Hills 81.9% > 15. Pasatiempo 18.1%

Midwest Region
1. NGLA 97.2% > 16. The Creek 2.8%
8. Maidstone 81% > 9. Inverness 19%
5. Pacific Dunes 84% > 12. Rock Creek Cattle Co. 16%
4. Chicago Golf 84% > 13. Valley Club of Montecito 16%
6. Seminole 91.5% > 11. Baltusrol Lower 8.5%
3. Fishers Island 92.4% > 14. Old Sandwich 8.6%
7. Shoreacres 87.7% > 10. Oak Hill East 12.3%
2. Oakmont 84% > 15. Eastward Ho! 16%

The voting form link in the OP has been edited to direct you to the Round of 32 matchups, live now until Sunday evening, and is also copied here: https://forms.gle/MUcEAvEFWurV1n2o9 (https://forms.gle/MUcEAvEFWurV1n2o9)

Bring on your postgame analyses!

   
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 18, 2023, 05:36:52 AM
Wow some heartbreaking losses for excellent courses. Like asking which of your children you love more.  I'll pick one from each bracket.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 18, 2023, 10:20:57 AM
The only winner is Golf Magazine. Round one was a verification exercise.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 18, 2023, 10:42:36 AM
  • 8. Kiawah Island Ocean 53.3% > 9. Peachtree 46.7% CLOSE   -   I think Kiawah is a unique course and setting, but Peachtree is my favorite Ross.


Peachtree is a Ross?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 18, 2023, 10:59:53 AM
  • 8. Kiawah Island Ocean 53.3% > 9. Peachtree 46.7% CLOSE   -   I think Kiawah is a unique course and setting, but Peachtree is my favorite Ross.


Peachtree is a Ross?
Sorry Sven I was changing my copy and pasted stuff, had Seminole there for another comment.  RTJ and definitely my favorite by him.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Brian Ross on March 18, 2023, 11:08:17 AM
Michael,

You have Sand Hills twice on the Round of 32 Voting. Believe the second one (last matchup in the bracket) should be Oakmont, not Sand Hills.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 18, 2023, 12:26:01 PM
Michael,

You have Sand Hills twice on the Round of 32 Voting. Believe the second one (last matchup in the bracket) should be Oakmont, not Sand Hills.


Yeah, that is stacking the deck a little bit.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - VOTING
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 18, 2023, 12:28:36 PM
Olympic Lake is a 15 seed? Your out of your mind. Anyone that thinks there are 56 courses in the US better than Olympic Lake has no clue what a great golf course is. :o

I must not have a clue, then.

The USGA, PGA and Rider Cup people seem to agree with me.


And you think that's a good thing?  Just more evidence for the 98.1%.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Ira Fishman on March 18, 2023, 03:06:28 PM
I did not vote in the first round because Ballyneal v Sleepy Hollow was the only match where I have played both courses. Ballyneal would have been my choice. In the second round, CPC v Sleepy Hollow is the only match where I have played both courses.


I guess I am curious as to the criteria that people use to vote if they have not played the courses (although some voters have probably played most0. But it is not quite the same as picking FDU over Purdue without seeing either team play—the match up was a game with a result on the scoreboard.


I do think it is fun, but am curious how people make their “picks”.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 18, 2023, 03:17:14 PM
Every course I have played beats any course I have not. A double digit seed won the whole thing. I guess that makes it my favorite course.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Ira Fishman on March 18, 2023, 04:36:33 PM
Every course I have played beats any course I have not. A double digit seed won the whole thing. I guess that makes it my favorite course.


Not quite accurate. I bet that you picked Harbor Town over CPC even though you have played both.


Just a bet.


Ira
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 18, 2023, 06:01:25 PM
I’ve never played CPC.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Max Prokopy on March 18, 2023, 06:21:58 PM

  • 6. Brookline 50.9% > 11. Myopia 49.1% DOUBLE OVERTIME   -   I'm surprised this was as close as it was. We are talking the composite US Open course yes?  Brookline is a classic parkland tough golf course.


I've played both and voted for Myopia.  Best trio of par 3's in the world (par 73 course). On a firm day it's one of my all-time favorite places...IIRC it's the only US course where horses have the right of way. 


You also have to consider that TCC only allows the composite course to be played sparingly. 
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on March 18, 2023, 08:46:51 PM
I do think it is fun, but am curious how people make their “picks”.


If invited to both courses which would I choose to play if only one was possible.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 18, 2023, 09:23:56 PM
Michael,

You have Sand Hills twice on the Round of 32 Voting. Believe the second one (last matchup in the bracket) should be Oakmont, not Sand Hills.


Brian, thank you for bringing that to my attention. My bad!


An addendum form for Midwest 2. Oakmont v 7. Shoreacres has been linked in the OP and below:
https://forms.gle/kPMdizUqk1rA52sz5
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 19, 2023, 03:34:54 PM
Reminder to complete round of 32 voting by 9 pm PT tonight.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: John Kirk on March 19, 2023, 07:52:34 PM
If Cypress Point advances to the sweet 16 I'll give them a call and ask if I come by and scout out the course.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Round of 32*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 20, 2023, 12:41:29 AM
Dancing into the Sweet 16. If your NCAA brackets are anything like mine, hopefully you can at least feel validated by some of the picks you've made here:


East Region
1. Pine Valley 90% > 8. Kiawah Island Ocean 10%
5. Crystal Downs 80% > 4. Winged Foot West 20% UPSET
11. Yeamans Hall 30.4% < 3. Pinehurst #2 69.6%
7. Garden City 28.7% < 2. Merion 71.3%


West Region
1. Cypress Point 96.1% > 9. Sleepy Hollow 3.9%
5. Oakland Hills South 25.6% < 4. Friar's Head 74.4%
6. SFGC 48.1% < 3. Pebble Beach 53.2% BUZZER BEATER
7. Cal Club 17.7% < Augusta 82.3%


South Region
1. Shinnecock 89.9% > 9. Camargo 10.1%
5. Prairie Dunes 56.4% > 4. Riviera 43.6% UPSET
6. Brookline 19.2% < 3. LACC 80.8%
7. Somerset Hills 13.9% < 2. Sand Hills 86.1%


Midwest Region
1. NGLA 91.1% > 8. Maidstone 8.9%
5. Pacific Dunes 48.1% < Chicago Golf 51.9% QUESTIONABLE FOUL CALL AT END
6. Seminole 33.3% < 3. Fishers Island 66.7%
7. Shoreacres 42.9% < 2. Oakmont 57.1%


The Sweet 16 voting form is live from now until next Friday 9 pm PT: https://forms.gle/UFbMXujPHsX4pckx6











Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 20, 2023, 11:37:51 AM
Michael,

Thanks for putting this together, I've been enjoying both the results and the quips like 'questionable foul call at the end'!  :D

While we've seen a few upsets, mostly in the 1st round, no big ones this go around.  All the 1 thru 3 seeds still intact.

P.S.  I did some analysis on the actual big dance results based on a pre-tourney convo I had with a Purdue fan of all people.  ;D  Since 1985 when they went to the current 64+ team format:

- A 1 seed ends up winning 65% of the time
- Only 4 Seeds lower than 3 have ever won it - 4,6,7,8 seeds respectively (Shout out to Joe as his Villanova was that #8)
- Going back to 2007 a non 1 seed has only won the tourney 3 times, which is interesting this year as two of em are already out.







Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 20, 2023, 11:50:11 PM
Now that we're in the weekday lull before the next round of games, hopefully we can get some more opinions like those offered by Alex and Jeff. 


What results have irritated, surprised, perplexed you most? Matchups that have been most exciting or least interesting?


I'm a bit underwhelmed not necessarily by the seedings, but how the regional matchups organized. For instance, Ohoopee as a 10 seed might've had a better chance against 7 seeds Shoreacres or Garden City compared to the deservedly loved Cal Club. The unfortunate double Doak in the Round of 64 has already been mentioned, but I also think Pacific Dunes would've had better odds of making the Sweet 16 as a 5 seed if it went up against any other 4 (Winged Foot W, Friars, Riviera) other than Chicago which holds significant aura on these parts. Of the Sweet 16, only 2 are modern, and both Coore and Crenshaw. With a slightly different allocation of seeds a Doak and possibly a Hanse could've been in this group.


I also would've preferred Pebble and Augusta not squaring off in the Sweet 16 because I can imagine this being the time in the tournament when either could've been upset, but one will be making the Elite Eight regardless.


Of courses I've played, the Oakland Hills v Friars Head matchup was an enjoyable quandary. Oakland's set of greens are in the top most tier from what I've seen so far, and as more people see the restored version I think it'll be in the conversation of the finest parkland championship layouts. But where would I rather spend a day, or play more rounds in a 10 round split, or be a member, or take a shower?


The Sweet 16 wades more into the hypothetical for me with only two matches where I've played both courses, 3 matches where I've played one, and 3 matches where I've played neither. I like jumping on Google maps and doing satellite hole-by-hole tours as I pencil out a match. Obviously undulation and contour cannot be noticed or appreciated, but it serves as a decent enough way to approximate the routings and preference for one hole over another.


The two matchups that intrigue me most in the Sweet 16 are 3. LACC v 2. Sand Hills and 2. Oakmont v 3. Fishers Island. Such different settings. Urban championship pedigrees against some of the finest summer getaway clubs. Based on images of how LACC looked before the Gil and Geoff restoration, it's stunning how quickly LACC has vaulted up rankings to where it can now rightfully contend among the country's best courses.         


 


   
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Jason Thurman on March 21, 2023, 12:09:06 AM
How many votes is each matchup receiving? I'm just taking in the idea that Garden City would beat Bandon Trails on the votes of a bunch of guys who've never worn a jacket to any golf course if it wasn't Easter or Mother's Day.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 21, 2023, 12:22:59 AM
How many votes is each matchup receiving? I'm just taking in the idea that Garden City would beat Bandon Trails on the votes of a bunch of guys who've never worn a jacket to any golf course if it wasn't Easter or Mother's Day.


Round of 64 had around 100 votes, round of 32 had about 80 per matchup.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Alex Miller on March 21, 2023, 02:48:59 PM
How many votes is each matchup receiving? I'm just taking in the idea that Garden City would beat Bandon Trails on the votes of a bunch of guys who've never worn a jacket to any golf course if it wasn't Easter or Mother's Day.


Fair Jason - it was my closest matchup as someone who's played both. Really could go either way depending on a person's voting criteria IMO.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Jason Thurman on March 21, 2023, 05:42:22 PM
I don't doubt that Garden City is a wonderful golf course. Likewise with Chicago Golf. It's just funny to me that those courses must have gotten so many votes from guys who hadn't played them, potentially at the expense of courses they actually HAD played.



Then again, I've played Prairie Dunes and haven't played Riviera, but I feel certain that I'd rather play Riviera as my home course. I love Prairie Dunes. Hole-for-hole, it's glorious. But it must be in the 90th percentile of ball eaters I've ever played. Even assuming the 2026 ball is going to be cheaper since it performs worse, I couldn't afford to keep myself stocked up if I played Prairie Dunes as my home course.


I want to be pissed off that Old Town lost in the first round to a course that couldn't pull 15% against Sand Hills, but Somerset Hills looks awesome as a guy who's only seen it in pics. The problem with a contest like this on GCA is that everybody knows Sand Hills is the right answer. Put Somerset against Sand in front of the average golfer, though, and we've got a hell of a battle on our hands I would imagine.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Stewart Abramson on March 21, 2023, 05:59:24 PM
I don't doubt that Garden City is a wonderful golf course. Likewise with Chicago Golf. It's just funny to me that those courses must have gotten so many votes from guys who hadn't played them, potentially at the expense of courses they actually HAD played.



Garden City is one of my favorite courses. It was an easy pick for me over Bandon Trails. The difficult one for me was Garden City vs Merion. I'd have been happy to see both make the sweet 16.


Ballyneal vs Sleepy Hollow was another tough choice for me.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Peter Sayegh on March 21, 2023, 06:05:29 PM
I'm just taking in the idea that Garden City would beat Bandon Trails on the votes of a bunch of guys who've never worn a jacket to any golf course if it wasn't Easter or Mother's Day.

Jason, can you explain this comment?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Jason Thurman on March 23, 2023, 12:26:56 PM
Peter, it's a joke that lives somewhere at the intersection of herd mentality and the glaring differences between a course that welcomes the public as warmly as any I've ever visited (other than the part where they charge you a much heftier price than the average muni) and a course that's about as exclusive as they get. I'm sure that if you browse the Guest Information section of Garden City's website you'll understand the context a little better.


None of that's any real criticism of this exercise or the victor. I have no reason to believe Garden City is anything other than awesome. I just know, mathematically, that it almost surely received votes from guys who haven't played it, but have played Trails. That's funny to me, in the way that it would be funny if somebody who's never had a burger from the Garden City grill told me that it was a better burger than Five Guys makes.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: archie_struthers on March 23, 2023, 12:30:19 PM
 8)


Now let's not get off track here with burgers ....hmnn???  what was better the Phyllis Burger at Woodcrest or that awesome outdoor grill at Saucon Valley   now that's a tough one to call  8)
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 23, 2023, 01:15:03 PM
8)

Now let's not get off track here with burgers ....hmnn???  what was better the Phyllis Burger at Woodcrest or that awesome outdoor grill at Saucon Valley   now that's a tough one to call  8)


Archie,

Excellent idea.  After March madness is over and everyone is bored again, perhaps a bracket of the best 64 best food choices? Then we can migrate to best 64 clubhouses!   ;D

P.S.  I understand Jason's concerns here, but if we limited the voting to only those who have played all 64 courses, who would qualify other than maybe TD?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 23, 2023, 03:02:04 PM


P.S.  I understand Jason's concerns here, but if we limited the voting to only those who have played all 64 courses, who would qualify other than maybe TD?
For sure Rudo!
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: David Wuthrich on March 23, 2023, 03:25:35 PM
8)

Now let's not get off track here with burgers ....hmnn???  what was better the Phyllis Burger at Woodcrest or that awesome outdoor grill at Saucon Valley   now that's a tough one to call  8)


Archie,

Excellent idea.  After March madness is over and everyone is bored again, perhaps a bracket of the best 64 best food choices? Then we can migrate to best 64 clubhouses!   ;D

P.S.  I understand Jason's concerns here, but if we limited the voting to only those who have played all 64 courses, who would qualify other than maybe TD?


You might be surprised about how many people on here have played all 64!
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Pete_Pittock on March 23, 2023, 05:25:10 PM
Don't see any routs, and a lot of close matches and an extra-holer.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: archie_struthers on March 24, 2023, 08:08:44 AM
 8)


Just so we are clear Michael I am finding this to be lots of fun. Look forward to next round

Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Peter Sayegh on March 24, 2023, 04:14:20 PM
Peter, it's a joke that lives somewhere at the intersection of herd mentality and the glaring differences between a course that welcomes the public as warmly as any I've ever visited (other than the part where they charge you a much heftier price than the average muni) and a course that's about as exclusive as they get. I'm sure that if you browse the Guest Information section of Garden City's website you'll understand the context a little better.


None of that's any real criticism of this exercise or the victor. I have no reason to believe Garden City is anything other than awesome. I just know, mathematically, that it almost surely received votes from guys who haven't played it, but have played Trails. That's funny to me, in the way that it would be funny if somebody who's never had a burger from the Garden City grill told me that it was a better burger than Five Guys makes.
Thanks Jason.
Perfect analogy for this carnivore.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Sweet 16*
Post by: Ira Fishman on March 24, 2023, 05:05:26 PM
An enjoyable thread. But I cannot envision the equivalent of Jim Valvano (RIP) running around the court/course for someone to hug.


Ira
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 24, 2023, 11:06:33 PM
Without any close calls, and with over 115 votes cast for each match, the Elite Eight has been set:


East
1. Pine Valley v 2. Merion


West
1. Cypress Point v 2. Augusta


South
1. Shinnecock v 2. Sand Hills


Midwest
1. NGLA v 3. Fishers Island


Sweet 16 Results:


East
1. Pine Valley 77.9% > 5. Crystal Downs 22.1%
3. Pinehurst #2 35.1% < 2. Merion 64.9%


West
1. Cypress Point 93.8% > 4. Friar's Head 6.2%
3. Pebble Beach 24.8% < 2. Augusta 75.2%


South
1. Shinnecock 84.8% > 5. Prairie Dunes 15.2%
3. LACC 39.8% < 2. Sand Hills 60.2%


Midwest
1. NGLA 86% > 4. Chicago Golf 14%
3. Fishers Island 58.4% > 2. Oakmont UPSET 


The Elite Eight voting form is LIVE from now until this Sunday 3/26 at 8 pm PT: https://forms.gle/7W1Rm8v1keADYEn76

Interesting storylines for the Elite Eight. Two MacKenzies square off, and a Macdonald or Raynor will see their run come to an end. A classic greater Philly rivalry comes to a head, and the spread for the treeless wonders of Shinnecock and Sand Hills is set at PK.

Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 26, 2023, 11:47:57 PM
I'm extending Elite Eight voting until Tuesday 8 pm PT since it's only been live over the weekend and we're at 30% of votes cast compared to the Sweet 16 round.


https://forms.gle/7W1Rm8v1keADYEn76 (https://forms.gle/7W1Rm8v1keADYEn76)
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 27, 2023, 06:55:18 AM
Why do you guys believe what the magazines tell you?  Ratings matter!!! They form the opinions of the public and other raters. What a waste of time.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 27, 2023, 12:15:27 PM
What a waste of time.


It's never a proper tournament until someone bemoans the state of the bracket and its outcomes. Thank you for playing the part!
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 27, 2023, 12:42:05 PM
The Valley Club won my bracket. A truer reflection of reality.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Michael Morandi on March 27, 2023, 10:38:09 PM
Recently the college presidents of some of the most elite universities in the country have come out against the ratings game, concerned that the ratings methodology is flawed and that applicants and their families place  too much emphasis on getting in to the top schools instead of the colleges that might be a better fit for them. What are the chances that the presidents and members of the top golf clubs will also shun the ratings game?  Some have, by not indulging golf raters. But the others?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Sean_A on March 28, 2023, 01:35:48 AM
I often wonder why the elite private clubs bother with raters. What's the point? Just like the top universities, they don't need a rating system to inform the public how good they are.

Ciao
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 28, 2023, 06:49:36 AM
I often wonder why the elite private clubs bother with raters. What's the point? Just like the top universities, they don't need a rating system to inform the public how good they are.



Are you really elite if people don’t bow down to you?  I’ve been amazed at how much some of these clubs care.  The president of Seminole’s hissy fit at being rated behind Shadow Creek thirty years ago was the all time classic.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 28, 2023, 06:56:24 AM
What are the chances that the presidents and members of the top golf clubs will also shun the ratings game?  Some have, by not indulging golf raters. But the others?


No club to my knowledge has told the magazines not to list them.  I heard a rumor long ago that Fishers Island may have done that, but the course was not listed in the GOLF rankings because not enough panelists had been there yet.


They may not accept panelists except as the guest of a member, but they do so in the comfort of knowing they’re going to be ranked near the top - and they may even be restricting access to protect the ranking they have.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Sean_A on March 28, 2023, 09:04:42 AM
I often wonder why the elite private clubs bother with raters. What's the point? Just like the top universities, they don't need a rating system to inform the public how good they are.



Are you really elite if people don’t bow down to you?  I’ve been amazed at how much some of these clubs care.  The president of Seminole’s hissy fit at being rated behind Shadow Creek thirty years ago was the all time classic.

I too wonder what the fuss is about. It's understandable if ratings help drive business, but really, there must be at least 30 or 50 clubs in the US where the ratings are useless.

I do know of a few clubs that declined to be rated by publications. There is one club in England where its hard to tell on their website if they have a course!

Ciao
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 28, 2023, 12:24:00 PM
Raters were influencers before influence became a dirty word.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on March 28, 2023, 01:56:52 PM
Michael--


I missed the first few rounds (my bad) but just voted in the quarters.  As a follow up you might do the same with the top 64 on GOLF Magazine's World list!!



Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 28, 2023, 04:17:49 PM
Michael--


I missed the first few rounds (my bad) but just voted in the quarters.  As a follow up you might do the same with the top 64 on GOLF Magazine's World list!!


Paul,


While you might've missed early voting, it's never too late to offer commentary on current or past matchups!


World List is a good idea for 2024.   
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Final Four*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on March 28, 2023, 11:27:19 PM
The Final Four is set with the 1 seeds avoiding any upset throughout the tournament.


1. Pine Valley vs 1. Cypress Point
1. Shinnecock Hills vs 1. National Golf Links of America


I personally was pulling for two 2-seeds to make it through, and there were moments that Sand Hills was within a vote of overtaking Shinnecock, but SHGC pulled away in the end.


East
1. Pine Valley 71% > 2. Merion 29%


West
1. Cypress Point 82% > 2. Augusta 18%


South
1. Shinnecock 54% > 2. Sand Hills 46%


Midwest
1. NGLA 77% > Fishers Island 23%


Long Island will have a course in the national championship. Just how far westward its opponent will be located remains to be seen.


Our Final Four voting is live from now until the men's first game tip-off, SAT 4/1 3 pm PT: https://forms.gle/rPVocmnQco7sqhXC8   



Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Final Four*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 29, 2023, 09:52:55 AM
April Madness is approaching. Is Augusta the best place in the country for at least a month?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Final Four*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on April 01, 2023, 06:38:21 PM
The national championship is set:


1. Cypress Point vs. 1. National Golf Links of America


Final Four results:
1. Pine Valley 22% < 1. Cypress Point 78%
1. Shinnecock 27% < 1. NGLA 73%


I was expecting both matchups to be much closer than how voting turned out.


Voting for the championship is now live until Monday, 4/3 at 9 pm PT: https://forms.gle/2GkaQTPdP78rkg7G8



Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Michael Morandi on April 01, 2023, 10:01:35 PM
Both CPC and NGLA are great places to be and enjoyable courses to play but absent that criteria I fail to understand their predominance over PV and Shinny. Having played all 4 of them I would not make them finalists unless the rating is for the “experience”.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Jim O’Kane on April 02, 2023, 02:55:45 AM
I wish I was in the same tax bracket as you all are in order to render some sort of worthwhile opinion to vote on these courses I only know through reading, much like, The Giving Tree, The Tao of Pooh, or many Doonsebury comics.

I had hoped that at this point in 56 trips around the sun, I would have been. But, I suspect it's dropping out of law school, driving a cab in San Francisco, then having a more "hands on" approach to the law thereby landing a job with the Lipset Service in San Francisco (at my ripe age of 27 where I thought I was surely making it), meeting Hunter Thompson, Warren Hinkle, former Mayor Joseph, Aliato, then Mayor Art Agnos, and then working with former SF chief of Police Frank Jordan at the Lipset Service, who became mayor a year or so before I left the Bay Area....and after all that, I am still a peasant of sorts -- albeit with a colorful history who has met and worked with a number of wonderful people, whereby, I have never become so myself so as to comment on such a ranking which, as a former D1 golfer, and knowing all these places through various readings, which may as well be fiction to me, only seems to render my own self, and opinions, much like fiction as well.

As for those who have inferred the above Bay Area references, I can factually state without regret, I suppose, I was never invited to the Cal Club, Olympic, Merced, SF Golf Club, because with a history like mine, I was none too surprised anyway.
However, even after I moved away in 95, it never kept me from missing San Geronimo, and sad at its demise, and conversely, despise, the opening #1 of both Lincoln Park, which I always considered a course "beneath me" that I never got "on top of", and #1 at Gleneagles, which, on some days, could very well be the most diabolical course on the planet with 40* weather, 30mph winds, and built on the side of a massive hill/mountain carved out of 6 story California Pines. 

I will say though, that without giving a binocular type look at the list provided here (I didn't feel the need as it wasn't in my alley, so to speak) -- two of the most beautiful places I've ever been able to set foot on, whereby my weirdness as a human being, and my come and go golf game was appreciated, when I appreciated my visit and acceptance, twice as much back, was The Country Club Of Florida, and Haig Point.

Are they on the list? They should be. Not necessarily architecturally only speaking, although, one could make good arguments I suppose...but merely for the class they exude, while having a pretty damn decent track on top of it where they're both largely underplayed, that you feel like the only person on the planet while you're there.

While you may not be, the fact that the organization makes you feel like you are, speaks volumes--at least to my soul.

I have no idea why I felt the need to type this other than having returned from Myrtle Beach, on a vacation, paid top 100 course private rack rates at public resort courses that neither held their warrant in condition or layout, and on top of that, because of my long hair, lanky Bobby Clampett look and Dave Hill attitude, got treated like shit.

I hate golf and people sometimes.

But I sure like reading what you all have to say here and the fact that of all the other sports I played in my life, only golf has a different playing field in every arena -- and you discuss them all with class.

That restores my faith in humanity. I will continue to sit on the end of the bench, observe, listen and learn. Thank you all, for all your sharing.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Tim Leahy on April 02, 2023, 06:27:46 AM
Just out of curiosity how many on this site have actually played both Cypress Point and NGLA in person and not on a video game.
Of those few(?) what is your vote and why? ???
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Tom_Doak on April 02, 2023, 10:27:50 AM
Just out of curiosity how many on this site have actually played both Cypress Point and NGLA in person and not on a video game.
Of those few(?) what is your vote and why? ???


The National and Cypress Point were the two courses I most admired before I headed overseas, and I struck up a friendship with the two professionals, Jim Langley and Mike Mueller, by going back so many times, which gave me kind of a hall pass to play them in the off season.  Being welcome there was probably the greatest perk of my career.  [Unfortunately, both of those gentlemen have passed away, so I have to hit up a member to go back now, and I don't do that nearly so often.]


I always have a hard time trying to separate the two -- they are both 10's in my book, as were Pine Valley and Shinnecock, but they are much more fun for the 5- to 10-handicap than the other two, which are exhausting tests of golf, if that is your bag.  Indeed, GOLF Magazine makes us vote for our "top 3" courses, and it's infuriating because I have a top 4, and with The Old Course and Royal Melbourne as the best of all worlds, I am stuck trying to decide which of these two courses must be ranked fourth.


I don't even remember which way I went with my vote last time; it just depends on which I am pining to go back to the most.  You've got to be very nit-picky to say one is better than the other.


However, I'll go out on a limb and say I expect The National to win this game, because posters here are so enamored with the CBM templates . . . if Chicago Golf beat Pacific Dunes, then National will beat Cypress Point.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Michael Morandi on April 02, 2023, 11:07:17 AM
If the same people who chose CPC and NGLA for the finals also filled out an NCAA bracket, to be true to their criteria they would have Princeton in the finals for its tradition and style of basketball. But as well as Princeton played this year, it was never going to be a finalist and IMHO nether should CPC and NGLA although I recognize Tom Doak’s points above
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Tom_Doak on April 02, 2023, 11:59:36 AM
If the same people who chose CPC and NGLA for the finals also filled out an NCAA bracket, to be true to their criteria they would have Princeton in the finals for its tradition and style of basketball. But as well as Princeton played this year, it was never going to be a finalist and IMHO nether should CPC and NGLA although I recognize Tom Doak’s points above


If you really think golf architecture is supposed to be about rewarding strength and clubhead speed and finding out who is the most "elite" player, you might be in the wrong place!
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: John Kirk on April 02, 2023, 12:09:02 PM
Jim O'Kane,

Thanks for your post.  I liked it.

I voted for Cypress Point over Pine Valley, even though I have never played either course.  I once walked Cypress Point with my Dad in about 1982 or 1983, watching George Burns and Lanny Wadkins play the course during the Bing Crosby Pro-Am.  I am from northern California, and northern California's most beautiful and serene place is the Monterey Peninsula.  I trust the critics who say that both Pine Valley and Cypress Point are sensational.  All other things being equal, I'd rather be playing golf in Monterey than in New Jersey.

I voted for Shinnecock Hills over NGLA because I played each course once in 2006 and I liked Shinnecock better.  Both my wife and I were probably at our peak as players, and what I mostly remember was some of the great plays she made on that trip.  I don't have any fine analysis.  Golf course assessment combines so many elements that you make a general call about how much you like a course.  It's little stuff.  In the late afternoon as we were walking up Shinnecock's sixteenth fairway, I looked across the way and saw a father teaching his young son how to play on the long par 3 second hole.  Maybe that magical moment that reminded me this great club is also for families was the difference.  I had a great time at both courses, but the way Shinny plays in that big open field just hits my sweet spot.   
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Michael Morandi on April 02, 2023, 12:22:49 PM
If the same people who chose CPC and NGLA for the finals also filled out an NCAA bracket, to be true to their criteria they would have Princeton in the finals for its tradition and style of basketball. But as well as Princeton played this year, it was never going to be a finalist and IMHO nether should CPC and NGLA although I recognize Tom Doak’s points above


If you really think golf architecture is supposed to be about rewarding strength and clubhead speed and finding out who is the most "elite" player, you might be in the wrong place!


I’m in the right place. Remember that the competition is in the context of an NCAA bracket, which rewards the the best teams  composed of elite athletes in an endurance contest.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on April 02, 2023, 12:49:41 PM
Both CPC and NGLA are great places to be and enjoyable courses to play but absent that criteria I fail to understand their predominance over PV and Shinny. Having played all 4 of them I would not make them finalists unless the rating is for the “experience”.


What criteria have gone into your own selections, Michael? Part of the motivation behind doing a bracket was to try to elicit that kind of discussion. Some respondents only selected courses they've played. Some considered if they only had 1 round to play, which course would they choose. I prefer doing hole-by-hole matchups, with an amalgamated criteria based on my understanding of architecture, the hole's distinctiveness, and--as a tie-breaker--the hole I'd prefer to play. 


I don't think your Princeton analogy is quite right, since the 1 seeds all made this particular final four. Yes, you're right to note that the overall #1 seed per GOLF Magazine, Pine Valley, didn't make it to the championship, but it didn't lose to a cinderella.


What makes a bracket exercise different than asking people to rank courses as if they were a rater is that it does allow personal preference and an element of wish fulfillment to influence decisions. It's in the explanation of those biases, and the personal comparison among courses, that I've enjoyed hearing from others.   
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Michael Morandi on April 02, 2023, 01:20:24 PM
I ranked courses that I PLAYED and on the basis of shot quality, using every club in the bag and challenge.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on April 03, 2023, 05:48:02 PM
Final reminder to pick your champion this evening if you haven't already done so:


Voting for the championship is now live until Monday, 4/3 at 9 pm PT: https://forms.gle/2GkaQTPdP78rkg7G8 (https://forms.gle/2GkaQTPdP78rkg7G8)
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Michael Chadwick on April 04, 2023, 12:10:50 AM
Not unlike UConn's dominance throughout the tournament, the GCA 2023 National Champion is Alister MacKenzie's 1928 Cypress Point Club.


Cypress beat NGLA 65% to 35%.


I'm still not sure how to interpret Tom's earlier call that NGLA would win. Perhaps it was a bait to get people to counter his assumption with votes for CPC, and thereby ensure a win for the course he actually believed deserved it most ;)   
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Stewart Abramson on April 04, 2023, 03:44:07 AM

I'm still not sure how to interpret Tom's earlier call that NGLA would win. Perhaps it was a bait to get people to counter his assumption with votes for CPC, and thereby ensure a win for the course he actually believed deserved it most ;)


Russian bots
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *FINAL*
Post by: Dan_Callahan on April 04, 2023, 08:47:59 AM
If you take away the ocean, does Cypress still win?
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *FINAL*
Post by: John Kavanaugh on April 04, 2023, 08:52:30 AM
If Bing Crosby couldn’t sing Cypress doesn’t win.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *FINAL*
Post by: Michael Morandi on April 04, 2023, 12:04:58 PM
Sandy Tatum on CPC in 2008:


Discuss how the ball and technology has effected Cypress Point over the past thirty years.
[/color]It’s just not viable as a championship course anymore. As you know, there is plenty of room to add distance at Cypress Point. Holes 4,6,8 could be lengthened and 9 if the tee is moved down. Furthermore you could go back as far as you wanted on 12 and 13.
[/color]There was a serious movement to do that and I wrote a letter to the board saying to do that would eliminate a Mackenzie design. I added that if Cypress wanted to have an influence on the game then keep it is as it is and have it used as a clinical example of why the ball should be rolled back. As a practical manner, lengthening it was only going to accommodate a very small percentage of people. I have a friend who is a member and he disagrees with me. His argument is he saw Tiger Woods play the 2nd hole with a driver and 4 iron. Others have seen him try and drive the 17th hole. My argument is that when a player can do that, he takes every single design element that the architect puts in the hole, out of play.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *FINAL*
Post by: Michael Moore on April 04, 2023, 01:59:19 PM
It looks to me like a player trying to drive the seventeenth hole encounters numerous and exciting design elements.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *FINAL*
Post by: Kevin_Reilly on April 04, 2023, 05:36:11 PM
Back in the early days of the Internet (late 90's), I had a video of Tiger on the 17th doing an impression of Mark Calcavecchia's swing (he was there during a practice round of the AT&T). He was trying to drive the green.  Tiger might have been playing with Calc.


Unfortunately, I lost the video and haven't been able to find it.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *FINAL*
Post by: Max Prokopy on April 04, 2023, 08:47:00 PM
Being fortunate to have played both, I voted for NGLA because the weakest holes are still so compelling.  East coast bias I guess.
Title: Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
Post by: Jim O’Kane on April 10, 2023, 01:34:02 AM
Jim O'Kane,

Thanks for your post.  I liked it.


Thanks John.

I'm not sure it was relevant, or even that I should have shared. (thought about deleting it as I had been up late working and had a couple of colden ones).

Since you replied, I left it.

I don't have the knowledge to contribute much sometimes, so, thank you sir.