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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Michael Morandi on March 08, 2023, 11:01:42 PM

Title: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Michael Morandi on March 08, 2023, 11:01:42 PM
This week’s Players is widely referred to as the 5th major, but unlike the big 4 will not feature otherwise qualified LIV tour players. The other majors want the best in the world competing. The Players has decided otherwise. Good decision?
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: jeffwarne on March 09, 2023, 12:07:25 AM
This week’s Players is widely referred to as the 5th major, but unlike the big 4 will not feature otherwise qualified LIV tour players. The other majors want the best in the world competing. The Players has decided otherwise. Good decision?


There are LIV players in all the majors.
The Players is a PGA Tour event.
None of the majors are run by the PGA Tour, therefore the PGA Tour doesn't set their qualification criteria.


It wasn't a "major" decision, but simply policy for all PGA Tour events.

Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Michael Morandi on March 09, 2023, 12:19:16 AM
This week’s Players is widely referred to as the 5th major, but unlike the big 4 will not feature otherwise qualified LIV tour players. The other majors want the best in the world competing. The Players has decided otherwise. Good decision?
Understood. Does it lose its 5th major status if it excludes some of the best players?

There are LIV players in all the majors.
The Players is a PGA Tour event.
None of the majors are run by the PGA Tour, therefore the PGA Tour doesn't set their qualification criteria.


It wasn't a "major" decision, but simply policy for all PGA Tour events.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim Leahy on March 09, 2023, 02:24:15 AM
The LIV players took their guaranteed money and left the best golf tour in the world and won't be missed. They didn't think they could compete against the best players in the world week to week so they are now playing 54 hole tournaments with shotgun starts and virtually no TV coverage. Real champions compete with the best in the best format and don't look for shortcuts and guaranteed paydays. 8)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Matt_Cohn on March 09, 2023, 03:48:50 AM
Besides the four majors, there aren’t any other tournaments that the top LIV and top PGA Tour guys all play in. As long as that’s the case, the biggest event on the PGA Tour is always going to be number five.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Enno Gerdes on March 09, 2023, 04:11:18 AM
If the absence of LIV players means that the expression "5th major" disappears, then that might be the biggest contribution of LIV to the world of golf.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Mike Bodo on March 09, 2023, 07:34:33 AM
With all of the LIV players absent from this year's tournament, The Players Championship lost its status of having the strongest strength of field of any tournament on the golf calendar year - including the four majors. It's definitely taken a step backwards, even though it will have the strongest strength of field of any PGA Tour event. Heck, the defending champion isn't even here this year to defend his title. All the commercials the PGA Tour has been running to promote the event feature 2021 champion, Justin  Thomas, not 2022 champ, Cameron Smith for obvious reasons.


If the stars ever realign again in professional men's golf where the best of the best regardless of tour are present at The Players, it could arguably become a "major". History will determine this. In my mind it's the 4th and a half major and always has. The Players being referred to as the "5th Major" is how I feel about the Evian Championship being declared the 5th major of women's professional golf for no apparent reason other than the LPGA declaring it so. That's not how it works. The golfing community at large (golfers - professionals/amateurs, writers, historians, tournament organizers, industry leaders, architectural professionals, etc.) have to arrive at a consensus in order to declare a tournament worthy of "major" status and that's never been the case for The Players. The PGA Tour or any professional golf tour declaring a particular tournament a "major" doesn't make it so. That has to be earned in the eyes of a much larger and broader group.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 09, 2023, 09:05:29 AM


The Players being referred to as the "5th Major" is how I feel about the Evian Championship being declared the 5th major of women's professional golf for no apparent reason other than the LPGA declaring it so. That's not how it works. The golfing community at large (golfers - professionals/amateurs, writers, historians, tournament organizers, industry leaders, architectural professionals, etc.) have to arrive at a consensus in order to declare a tournament worthy of "major" status and that's never been the case for The Players. The PGA Tour or any professional golf tour declaring a particular tournament a "major" doesn't make it so. That has to be earned in the eyes of a much larger and broader group.


I don't agree that "the golfing community at large" determines what a major is.


Back in the day, the Western Open was a big event on the US pro tour, and a lot of the players and historians considered it a major.  But it doesn't count as one when we are adding up "major championships" for old players.  Hell, many people have now discredited the U.S. Amateur as a major by counting "professional majors" instead. 


Meanwhile, why pick on Evian, which has been around longer than the Women's British Open, or the DuMaurier which was also once a "designated" major?  The women's events are kind of the proof that you CAN designate what is a major.  But I agree with you that there should only be four of them, otherwise modern players are given an edge in how many majors they win.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on March 09, 2023, 09:16:37 AM
Fantastic decision.


Mike, it's like if you were working for Goldman Sachs as a top salesperson and you were recruited to go work for Citadel with a huge signing bonus and guarantied compensation.


Do you think you should be invited to Goldman's annual Uber-boondoggle for their top producers even though you just left the team you worked with and competed with for years? I mean..."you" are a top performer and hence you feel that you "should" be invited, right?


Except there's just one problem: You don't fucking work at Goldman anymore!! You left for a lighter work schedule and less stress of actually competing.


Go ask your NEW employer about their annual boondoggle for their top performers!!


I dont begrudge ANY LIV golfer for "hitting the LIV bid" and lining their pockets. Dustin Johnson has the right viewpoint.
I just cant comprehend why many of the LIVers feel they are somehow entitled to double-dip at their discretion.


Decisions have consequences and not being invited to the Players is one of them that they simply must live with.



Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 09, 2023, 09:18:33 AM
https://www.5thmajor.com/ (https://www.5thmajor.com/)


I’m not the only member of this site whose name adorns the 5th Major Mike D trophy.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Mike Bodo on March 09, 2023, 10:29:39 AM
Meanwhile, why pick on Evian, which has been around longer than the Women's British Open, or the DuMaurier which was also once a "designated" major?  The women's events are kind of the proof that you CAN designate what is a major.  But I agree with you that there should only be four of them, otherwise modern players are given an edge in how many majors they win.


I'm not picking on Evian per se, as I realize its stature and importance in women's golf. I was merely using it as an example of a Tour declaring a tournament a "major" because it can. Same as the PGA Tour has tried doing with The Players. My contention is just because they can, doesn't make it so. Lastly, I'm far from alone on my stance with the Evian being the fifth major on the women's side. There are plenty of individuals in both legacy and social media who feel the same way.


If you really want to talk history and go in the "way back" machine, the four original majors were the U.S. Open, U.S. Amateur, British Open and British Amateurs. When did it change to professional golf majors only and include the Masters and PGA Championship? Also, why was The Master's selected over Western Open as a major given the latter was well establihed had been around longer? Who determined this? Same goes for the PGA Championship. Did that tourney become a major for the simple fact it was the premiere evet of the PGA of America? If that's the case then why isn't The Players considered a "major" when it's promoted and consentually agreed upon as the premiere event of the PGA Tour?


To your comment regarding the Western Open potentially being considered a major; You could argue the North - South Open was on par with the Western as far as prestige and history until it ceased to exist as a professional tournament after 1951. Unlike the Western Open, however, it was played at the same course every year, whereas the Western moved around until it went to Butler National and later, Cog Hill or extended periods.


In summary, who are the arbiters of men's and women's professional golf that decide/determine what is and what isn't a major? Also, who's to say you can't have five or even six major championships a season? Why should it be limited to four - because that's how tennis and other individual sports do it?
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 09, 2023, 10:38:14 AM
When Shipnuck took the reins from Wind the golf writers of America lost their right to declare majors.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Paul Jones on March 09, 2023, 10:48:38 AM
I just looked at 2022 Players final leaderboard - THE PLAYERS Championship 2022 Leaderboard (pgatour.com) (https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/2022/the-players-championship/R2022011)


1. Cameron Smith
2. Anirban Lahiri
3. Paul Casey
4. Kevin Kisner
5. Keegan Bradley
6. Harold Varner III
6. Russel Knox
6. Doug Ghim
9. Dustin Johnson
9. Victor Hovland
9. Adam Hadwin
9. Sepp Straka


I see quite a few players now on LIV from last years leaderboard, including Top 3.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: V. Kmetz on March 09, 2023, 12:27:41 PM

If you really want to talk history and go in the "way back" machine, the four original majors were the U.S. Open, U.S. Amateur, British Open and British Amateurs. When did it change to professional golf majors only and include the Masters and PGA Championship? Also, why was The Master's selected over Western Open as a major given the latter was well establihed had been around longer? Who determined this? Same goes for the PGA Championship. Did that tourney become a major for the simple fact it was the premiere evet of the PGA of America? If that's the case then why isn't The Players considered a "major" when it's promoted and consentually agreed upon as the premiere event of the PGA Tour?

In summary, who are the arbiters of men's and women's professional golf that decide/determine what is and what isn't a major? Also, who's to say you can't have five or even six major championships a season? Why should it be limited to four - because that's how tennis and other individual sports do it?


All the terms being used:  "premiere event" "major" "selected as" "promoted and consensually agreed upon" ...even "Grand Slam" are all mostly advertising bunk...they mean nothing to the actual worth of these events, even within the narrow golf culture. Their worth comes from their historic, unbroken length...their relative quality of fields during that length...the quality and regard for the courses they are played on...the economic and career value of the prize...the regular excitements of the competition they produce...the quality of winners and repeat winners...


But MB, some of your strict marriage of truth to these terms leads to notions that just don't fly. Was the Open a crap major or a phony premier event when the best American players did not regularly play until the 60s? Or when the PGA changed from match play, was it any less a "major" than for its first 40+ years?


And to not know how amateur golf measures and standards became professional golf standards between the wars and how the Masters took the cultural position it did seems obtuse. 


I agree with Tom's remark though, even as an empty cultural term - major - it would readily dilute our historical regard/context for achievements under the 4-major umbrella, if there was somehow a mass acknowledgement of 5.  Look what it has done to playoff stats and their cultural investment in all four major sports who have tripled and quadrupled the number of teams, the number of teams in the playoffs, the number of rounds and even number of games in those rounds.  A New York Yankee player now, may have up to 22 playoff games per season and if they are on a good team may play in 100 playoff games in their career. Yogi Berra only got up to 7 playoff games per year, and as a comparative result, even though he was 15x AL Champion/World Series player, only played in 75 playoff games....Derek Jeter, who didn't even compete in this most recent liberal era of even further expanded playoffs played in 158; though he was AL champion/World Series player 7x...Berra only got half the playoff games for double the "playoffs" credentials.


Bottom line: like most events, it MIGHT be a touch better if the Top 50 LIV hogs were here, but not that much... I suspect it's going to be a fine watch as always.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Mike Bodo on March 09, 2023, 01:07:56 PM
All the terms being used:  "premiere event" "major" "selected as" "promoted and consensually agreed upon" ...even "Grand Slam" are all mostly advertising bunk...they mean nothing to the actual worth of these events, even within the narrow golf culture. Their worth comes from their historic, unbroken length...their relative quality of fields during that length...the quality and regard for the courses they are played on...the economic and career value of the prize...the regular excitements of the competition they produce...the quality of winners and repeat winners...
Under that guise and premise then there's nothing to say the The Players Championship won't one day be viewed as a major. It's been played at TPC Sawgrass now since 1980 and thus is 43 yrs. old. Perhaps after 50 or 75 yrs. it will be viewed as such. It can't be ruled out.

Quote
Was the Open a crap major or a phony premier event when the best American players did not regularly play until the 60s? Or when the PGA changed from match play, was it any less a "major" than for its first 40+ years?
I never suggested either was less a major, so I'm not sure where you're going with this line of thought?   

Quote
And to not know how amateur golf measures and standards became professional golf standards between the wars and how the Masters took the cultural position it did seems obtuse.
I'm acutely aware of how perceptions of amateur golf vs. the pro game changed over the course of decades, which led to where we are today. What I specifically was trying to get at was when the script officially flipped and when it became widely accepted amongst the golf intellegentsia as to what the four professional majors were? As Tom made mention, there was a time some considered the Western Open a major.

Quote
I agree with Tom's remark though, even as an empty cultural term - major - it would readily dilute our historical regard/context for achievements under the 4-major umbrella, if there was somehow a mass acknowledgement of 5.
Using your logic, are you good with the Evian champtionship becoming the 5th major in women's professional golf, which Tom was fine with? Or is it okay for women's golf to have 5 majors, but not men's?

Quote
Bottom line: like most events, it MIGHT be a touch better if the Top 50 LIV hogs were here, but not that much... I suspect it's going to be a fine watch as always.
I agree with your statement, but my primary question went unanswered and that's who are the arbiters of professional men's and women's golf today and who determines what qualifies as a major? The sad thing is I'm not even arguing on behalf of The Players becoming the 5th major in the men's game, so I'm not sure where all this came from? However, I don't rule out the possibility of it occuring one day either.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: V. Kmetz on March 09, 2023, 01:36:17 PM
MB,


I wont re-quote your last, but your question has no answer, because no single owns or originated, or holds propriety over the terms involved. You're pushing for an answer that doesn't exist in less than essay form.  I tried to give you my construction of how and why these terms mean/meant anything, but what I flatly wished to ask was:  why does it matter what prestige term is used to describe the Players or Evian? What skin, intellectual or otherwise, do you have in the game?


Yes, it very well may become a fifth major, but you'll have to figure out the mechanism; I don't know if the female tours/elite have had as much consistency with 4 distinct majors...an evolved legacy like the Mens' game... to say whether or not calling Evian a 5th dilutes historical perspective and value as I am aware the men's game might/would.  Ask Annika Sorenstam.


The Masters is where it is because of Jones, he's the cultural hub around the last dominant era of amateurs and wheeling towards the first era of professionals... when he retired, he sorta of took the front page amateur goods with him, but started a new professional institution in its place. Maybe the Western Open/North South and others couldn't match the ANGC Invitational/Masters and what Roberts was doing to make sure Bobby's tournament and club weren't cut rate and just another tournament. And certainly the intentional positioning of Augusta's favorable climate, location and national media returning home on trains from Spring training did not hurt their cause.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Mike Bodo on March 09, 2023, 01:38:53 PM
The Masters is where it is because of Jones, he's the cultural hub around the last dominant era of amateurs and wheeling towards the first era of professionals... when he retired, he sorta of took the front page amateur goods with him, but started a new professional institution in its place. Maybe the Western Open/North South and others couldn't match the ANGC Invitational/Masters and what Roberts was doing to make sure Bobby's tournament and club weren't cut rate and just another tournament. And certainly the intentional positioning of Augusta's favorable climate, location and national media returning home on trains from Spring training did not hurt their cause.
Best comment yet and I agree wholeheartedly with all your points. Thanks!  ;)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ken Moum on March 09, 2023, 04:19:02 PM

I agree with your statement, but my primary question went unanswered and that's who are the arbiters of professional men's and women's golf today and who determines what qualifies as a major? The sad thing is I'm not even arguing on behalf of The Players becoming the 5th major in the men's game, so I'm not sure where all this came from? However, I don't rule out the possibility of it occuring one day either.


The professional Grand Slam was "invented" by Arnold Palmer and Bob Drum in 1960 on the way home from the UK.


Who was to argue?


FWIW,  the original Grand Slam that Jones won in 1930 was named after the fact by O.B. Keeler.


IMHO Jones' feat is the single most incredible achievement in sports.  He realized he'd have a chance two years earlier after the Walker Cup, because when it was going to be in the UK the Amateur and Open were scheduled to accommodate the players.


He had ONE opportunity in his life. He set out to do it. Told people he intended to. Trained over the winter for it.


And then did it.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 09, 2023, 06:19:46 PM

Yes, it very well may become a fifth major, but you'll have to figure out the mechanism; I don't know if the female tours/elite have had as much consistency with 4 distinct majors...an evolved legacy like the Mens' game... to say whether or not calling Evian a 5th dilutes historical perspective and value as I am aware the men's game might/would.  Ask Annika Sorenstam.



The reason the women can have five majors is because


a). they have a lot shorter history than the men's game,
b)  almost nobody knows that history [I could not begin to tell you how many majors any particular woman golfer won], and
c). today's women are better off marketing themselves by establishing more majors so they can win more of them and maybe get some recognition for it




Just for fun I Googled who has the most majors in women's golf, and the first hit was that it was Patty Berg, with 15.  And her 15 consisted of one U.S.Women's Open, and 14 events that are no longer majors -- 7 Titleholders tournaments and 7 Women's Western Opens!


So, yeah, women's majors are a bit murky.  Which is to take nothing away from Patty Berg.  I attended a clinic of hers at Harder Hall in Florida forty years ago, and she was full of life.  A friend of mine shoved me out of the crowd when Ms. Berg wanted a volunteer to demonstrate a couple of things to the assembled group . . . who included a lot of the best amateur players in the country.  They all had a laugh at my expense!



Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Michael Morandi on March 09, 2023, 07:20:19 PM
Fantastic decision.


Mike, it's like if you were working for Goldman Sachs as a top salesperson and you were recruited to go work for Citadel with a huge signing bonus and guarantied compensation.


Do you think you should be invited to Goldman's annual Uber-boondoggle for their top producers even though you just left the team you worked with and competed with for years? I mean..."you" are a top performer and hence you feel that you "should" be invited, right?


Except there's just one problem: You don't fucking work at Goldman anymore!! You left for a lighter work schedule and less stress of actually competing.


Go ask your NEW employer about their annual boondoggle for their top performers!!


I dont begrudge ANY LIV golfer for "hitting the LIV bid" and lining their pockets. Dustin Johnson has the right viewpoint.
I just cant comprehend why many of the LIVers feel they are somehow entitled to double-dip at their discretion.


Decisions have consequences and not being invited to the Players is one of them that they simply must live with.


Sometimes a question is simply a question. I hate where we are  as a society today when a question implies a position. Often I share an article with someone and they immediately think I agree with its points when I simply think they might be interested in its contents. Don’t shoot the messenger or the questioner. Everybody.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Michael Morandi on March 09, 2023, 07:21:52 PM
Meanwhile, why pick on Evian, which has been around longer than the Women's British Open, or the DuMaurier which was also once a "designated" major?  The women's events are kind of the proof that you CAN designate what is a major.  But I agree with you that there should only be four of them, otherwise modern players are given an edge in how many majors they win.





I'm not picking on Evian per se, as I realize its stature and importance in women's golf. I was merely using it as an example of a Tour declaring a tournament a "major" because it can. Same as the PGA Tour has tried doing with The Players. My contention is just because they can, doesn't make it so. Lastly, I'm far from alone on my stance with the Evian being the fifth major on the women's side. There are plenty of individuals in both legacy and social media who feel the same way.


If you really want to talk history and go in the "way back" machine, the four original majors were the U.S. Open, U.S. Amateur, British Open and British Amateurs. When did it change to professional golf majors only and include the Masters and PGA Championship? Also, why was The Master's selected over Western Open as a major given the latter was well establihed had been around longer? Who determined this? Same goes for the PGA Championship. Did that tourney become a major for the simple fact it was the premiere evet of the PGA of America? If that's the case then why isn't The Players considered a "major" when it's promoted and consentually agreed upon as the premiere event of the PGA Tour?


To your comment regarding the Western Open potentially being considered a major; You could argue the North - South Open was on par with the Western as far as prestige and history until it ceased to exist as a professional tournament after 1951. Unlike the Western Open, however, it was played at the same course every year, whereas the Western moved around until it went to Butler National and later, Cog Hill or extended periods.


In summary, who are the arbiters of men's and women's professional golf that decide/determine what is and what isn't a major? Also, who's to say you can't have five or even six major championships a season? Why should it be limited to four - because that's how tennis and other individual sports do it?


Great points.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on March 10, 2023, 08:33:12 AM
Fantastic decision.


Mike, it's like if you were working for Goldman Sachs as a top salesperson and you were recruited to go work for Citadel with a huge signing bonus and guarantied compensation.


Do you think you should be invited to Goldman's annual Uber-boondoggle for their top producers even though you just left the team you worked with and competed with for years? I mean..."you" are a top performer and hence you feel that you "should" be invited, right?


Except there's just one problem: You don't fucking work at Goldman anymore!! You left for a lighter work schedule and less stress of actually competing.


Go ask your NEW employer about their annual boondoggle for their top performers!!


I dont begrudge ANY LIV golfer for "hitting the LIV bid" and lining their pockets. Dustin Johnson has the right viewpoint.
I just cant comprehend why many of the LIVers feel they are somehow entitled to double-dip at their discretion.


Decisions have consequences and not being invited to the Players is one of them that they simply must live with.


Sometimes a question is simply a question. I hate where we are  as a society today when a question implies a position. Often I share an article with someone and they immediately think I agree with its points when I simply think they might be interested in its contents. Don’t shoot the messenger or the questioner. Everybody.


The question IS just a question and my answer IS just an answer and not an accusation, Mike. It's an anlalogy made to the board, not you.


Lighten up.


The messenger is sometimes only shot when HE believes that it is happening. It's not.


I made an analolgy to highlight why I think the PGA made a good decision.
How you internalize that is apparently your issue to reconcile, but you missed my intent by 180 degrees. That happens.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 10, 2023, 09:04:14 AM
The LIV players took their guaranteed money and left the best golf tour in the world and won't be missed. They didn't think they could compete against the best players in the world week to week so they are now playing 54 hole tournaments with shotgun starts and virtually no TV coverage. Real champions compete with the best in the best format and don't look for shortcuts and guaranteed paydays. 8)

Some might feel they're not missed because they decided to take the money and run, so who needs 'em.

Personally, I feel they're not missed because how many of them are top players that would have deepened the field? Smith, Niemann, maybe Koepka, Johnson, and DeChambeau? I realize you never know what's going to happen in the tournament, and a lot of LIV golfers finished in the top 10 of the Players Championship last year, but do we really feel the Players' field is diluted because Anirban Lahiri isn't playing this year?

I don't watch much golf on television but I did watch the last hour or so of the Bear Trap Open a few weeks ago and I thought that was compelling even though I can't remember the names of either of the two guys who were battling it out down the stretch.

LIV players might come in and sweep the four majors this year, I have no idea. But if the current bifurcation between LIV and the PGA holds, the LIV players are going to be missed less and less simply because they are out of sight out of mind, and they don't have many mixed events where they can prove that they are still among the world's best.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Niall C on March 10, 2023, 09:15:29 AM
The LIV players took their guaranteed money and left the best golf tour in the world and won't be missed. They didn't think they could compete against the best players in the world week to week so they are now playing 54 hole tournaments with shotgun starts and virtually no TV coverage. Real champions compete with the best in the best format and don't look for shortcuts and guaranteed paydays. 8)

Some might feel they're not missed because they decided to take the money and run, so who needs 'em.

Personally, I feel they're not missed because how many of them are top players that would have deepened the field? Smith, Niemann, maybe Koepka, Johnson, and DeChambeau? I realize you never know what's going to happen in the tournament, and a lot of LIV golfers finished in the top 10 of the Players Championship last year, but do we really feel the Players' field is diluted because Anirban Lahiri isn't playing this year?


I think you could make that case the other way as well. The fact is that if you don't have all the best players playing then the field is diluted. When the LIV thing kicked off I didn't give two hoots for the PGA Tour or even to an extent to the Euro Tour which had already sold out but I was concerned about the majors, and in particular the Open. Now I think you can make the argument that the majors have been bolstered, at least for the moment. With a bit of luck Martin Slumbers won't do anything stupid but given some of his previous comments that's not a given.


Niall
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 10, 2023, 10:01:30 AM
I think you could make that case the other way as well. The fact is that if you don't have all the best players playing then the field is diluted. When the LIV thing kicked off I didn't give two hoots for the PGA Tour or even to an extent to the Euro Tour which had already sold out but I was concerned about the majors, and in particular the Open. Now I think you can make the argument that the majors have been bolstered, at least for the moment. With a bit of luck Martin Slumbers won't do anything stupid but given some of his previous comments that's not a given.

Niall


I think it's easier to make the case both ways right now. If the LIV/PGA stalemate is unchanged (which is unlikely), then it might be very hard to say that not having LIV golfers weakens PGA fields. The in-their-prime players that went to LIV might not be in-their-prime anymore. And maybe LIV can draw some top young talent, but who is to know how good they are when they're only playing these LIV invitationals? Look at Niemann, he was off to a great start on the PGA Tour and might have been primed to become one of the top players. But now, and correct me if I'm wrong, he might only be able to maintain eligibility for majors if he can perform well in the majors for which he has remaining eligibility. Unless he wants to try to maintain his world rank by playing additional tournaments on the LIV-friendly tours.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Niall C on March 10, 2023, 10:16:17 AM
JL


Again there are probably guys still on the PGA Tour who have gone off the boil following a stellar start to their career. That happens.


Niall
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Rob Marshall on March 10, 2023, 10:18:29 AM
The LIV players took their guaranteed money and left the best golf tour in the world and won't be missed. They didn't think they could compete against the best players in the world week to week so they are now playing 54 hole tournaments with shotgun starts and virtually no TV coverage. Real champions compete with the best in the best format and don't look for shortcuts and guaranteed paydays. 8)


So the only guy I miss is Cam Smith. I don't think he was afraid of anyone. My son is at the Players. He has a buddy who works at a course next door. 12 hole course that a lot of pro's practice at. Molinari was there the other day. Anyway, he's playing the course then going to the tournament. He's on the range this morning and Cam Smith was hitting balls getting ready to play with a buddy who won the Australian open. He was in the group behind my son. My son asks for a picture and his reply is "of course mate". They talked for a few minutes and then teed off. My son said he couldn't have been nicer.


To put things in perspective. My sister in law is a flight attendant. She was in Israel yesterday. Goes out to dinner with her flight crew. Guy walks into the restaurant and starts shooting the place up. A man was shot twice in the head 10 feet from her. She had to crawl out of the place thru broken glass wondering if she would ever see her kids again.  What a world we live in.  I don't like LIV, won't watch it, but at the end of the day it's meaning less. Wanted to get that off my chest. Sorry.

Tim, not directed at you in anyway other than my Cam Smith story was related to your post.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Niall C on March 10, 2023, 11:54:48 AM
But now, and correct me if I'm wrong, he might only be able to maintain eligibility for majors if he can perform well in the majors for which he has remaining eligibility. Unless he wants to try to maintain his world rank by playing additional tournaments on the LIV-friendly tours.


Sorry, didn't pick up on the bit about rankings. As per my comments and others comments on this thread and elsewhere, with no crossover between the two tours (PGA and LIV) then the only place you will continue to have the best fields will be the majors, assuming they set the qualification process in such a way that LIV golfers are eligible by play through their own tour. That is hugely to the benefit of the majors.


I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.


Niall
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 10, 2023, 12:14:27 PM

I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.



Then I would suggest you don't understand the politics of golf at the highest levels very well.


As George Carlin used to say, "It's a big club and you ain't in it."


I believe at least a couple of them would have disqualified the LIV players, except for the possibility of lawsuits over changing their criteria to discriminate against the LIV tour.  The easier road is to do what they're doing . . . keep the existing rules [knowing that they disadvantage the LIV players over time], and maybe hope that some sort of accommodation is reached before most of those players are phased out.


As for the TPC, the TOUR has always used the membership requirement to leverage international players to be TOUR members.  They kept Seve Ballesteros from playing in most TOUR events from 1986-88 because he wouldn't commit to playing in 15 events per year.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 10, 2023, 12:54:11 PM
I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.

Niall


But that's the whole thing, if somebody like Niemann isn't qualifying for the future majors by his performance in the majors this year, then how else can it be determined whether he is one of the top players? He can play some of the events on tours that are allowing LIV guys to play, I suppose. But his performance in majors for four weeks of this year are really his auditions for playing in next year's majors. Apart from that his only proof points are going to be his performance in these 54-hole LIV exhibitions, with their strict qualifying criteria of whether you've been invited to play in them.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 10, 2023, 01:31:57 PM
I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.

Niall


But that's the whole thing, if somebody like Niemann isn't qualifying for the future majors by his performance in the majors this year, then how else can it be determined whether he is one of the top players? He can play some of the events on tours that are allowing LIV guys to play, I suppose. But his performance in majors for four weeks of this year are really his auditions for playing in next year's majors. Apart from that his only proof points are going to be his performance in these 54-hole LIV exhibitions, with their strict qualifying criteria of whether you've been invited to play in them.




This is why I was kind of surprised by the level of discourse around the original world ranking decision. Even if LIV gets world ranking points, it will be so few that it would only slightly slow down LIV players' inexorable slide off the list.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 10, 2023, 01:38:13 PM
I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.

Niall


But that's the whole thing, if somebody like Niemann isn't qualifying for the future majors by his performance in the majors this year, then how else can it be determined whether he is one of the top players? He can play some of the events on tours that are allowing LIV guys to play, I suppose. But his performance in majors for four weeks of this year are really his auditions for playing in next year's majors. Apart from that his only proof points are going to be his performance in these 54-hole LIV exhibitions, with their strict qualifying criteria of whether you've been invited to play in them.

This is why I was kind of surprised by the level of discourse around the original world ranking decision. Even if LIV gets world ranking points, it will be so few that it would only slightly slow down LIV players' inexorable slide off the list.

Agreed Charlie,

I'd bet the current discussion behind closed doors is just to maintain the status quo of denying LIV substantial if any world ranking points and the "problem" takes care of itself.  (Assuming the Saudis are willing to continue this fiscal charade and flush hundreds of millions down the toilet)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Michael Morandi on March 10, 2023, 01:51:47 PM
Fantastic decision.


Mike, it's like if you were working for Goldman Sachs as a top salesperson and you were recruited to go work for Citadel with a huge signing bonus and guarantied compensation.


Do you think you should be invited to Goldman's annual Uber-boondoggle for their top producers even though you just left the team you worked with and competed with for years? I mean..."you" are a top performer and hence you feel that you "should" be invited, right?


Except there's just one problem: You don't fucking work at Goldman anymore!! You left for a lighter work schedule and less stress of actually competing.


Go ask your NEW employer about their annual boondoggle for their top performers!!


I dont begrudge ANY LIV golfer for "hitting the LIV bid" and lining their pockets. Dustin Johnson has the right viewpoint.
I just cant comprehend why many of the LIVers feel they are somehow entitled to double-dip at their discretion.


Decisions have consequences and not being invited to the Players is one of them that they simply must live with.


Sometimes a question is simply a question. I hate where we are  as a society today when a question implies a position. Often I share an article with someone and they immediately think I agree with its points when I simply think they might be interested in its contents. Don’t shoot the messenger or the questioner. Everybody.


The question IS just a question and my answer IS just an answer and not an accusation, Mike. It's an anlalogy made to the board, not you.


Lighten up.


The messenger is sometimes only shot when HE believes that it is happening. It's not.


I made an analolgy to highlight why I think the PGA made a good decision.
How you internalize that is apparently your issue to reconcile, but you missed my intent by 180 degrees. That happens.


Fair enough.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Max Prokopy on March 10, 2023, 02:25:52 PM
I'm not a big fan of LIV by any stretch, but should the US Open and THE Open expand the number of qualifiers to accommodate the inexorable phasing out of the LIV players? 


When players like DJ get to the point of having to go through sectionals, it would seem that the USGA/R&A might expand the number of available slots. 
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JohnVDB on March 10, 2023, 02:47:22 PM
I'm not a big fan of LIV by any stretch, but should the US Open and THE Open expand the number of qualifiers to accommodate the inexorable phasing out of the LIV players? 


When players like DJ get to the point of having to go through sectionals, it would seem that the USGA/R&A might expand the number of available slots.


I believe the USGA expanded the exemptions from local qualifying to anyone in the top 500 in the world in the rankings which might help some players get straight to Final qualifying. About half the field comes from Final qualifying. If about 70-80 spots aren’t enough for those players, perhaps they aren’t good enough anymore.


It could be noted that this is the final year of Tiger’s exemption from qualifying for the US Open, although they might be convinced to give him a special exemption or two ;) [size=78%]. Otherwise he’s going to have to walk a 36-hole one day qualifier starting next year if he wants to play in it.[/size]
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on March 10, 2023, 03:16:46 PM
Why is it that everyone, every entity, every option must make and allow for accommodations for the "Lost LIVers" so that there may be harmony?


Why can't LIV make any accommodations or concessions to their rigid business model in the spirit of (barf) "growing the game"?


Why can't they have slots for plyers who wish to qualify?
What are they 100% exclusive yet whine about other tours and governing body's criteria?


It's like they made their own VIP private club that no one else is allowed to visit yet they insist that they can swim in any public pool they want...just because they used to swim there back in the day.


Dudes, you have your own club now. Yup, the media hates it because the club's owner kills journalists. The sponsors hate it because the club's owners' fellow countrymen killed 3000 Americans and just signed a peace deal with Iran. Makes it kinda bad for business.


That's also why the president of Seminole didnt want LIVers at the pro/member event last month.
He lost employees on 9/11.


It matters.






Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 10, 2023, 03:33:31 PM
When the cool kids won’t let you in the clubhouse they don’t become less cool. We want the cool kids in the majors.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 10, 2023, 03:52:14 PM
I'm not a big fan of LIV by any stretch, but should the US Open and THE Open expand the number of qualifiers to accommodate the inexorable phasing out of the LIV players? 

When players like DJ get to the point of having to go through sectionals, it would seem that the USGA/R&A might expand the number of available slots.


I really don't understand why they would or should, or why we would want them to.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 10, 2023, 03:59:24 PM
I'm not a big fan of LIV by any stretch, but should the US Open and THE Open expand the number of qualifiers to accommodate the inexorable phasing out of the LIV players? 

When players like DJ get to the point of having to go through sectionals, it would seem that the USGA/R&A might expand the number of available slots.


I really don't understand why they would or should, or why we would want them to.




Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the idea is that DJ or whomever is going to be taking a spot from an unknown who's trying to qualify, so make some extra spots for those unknowns who would have had a chance. That said, I don't think it works that way, the number should just be the number.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 10, 2023, 04:25:54 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the idea is that DJ or whomever is going to be taking a spot from an unknown who's trying to qualify, so make some extra spots for those unknowns who would have had a chance. That said, I don't think it works that way, the number should just be the number.


Right but I don't think the USGA or R&A should be stepping in to smooth out bumps in the road that were created by LIV and the PGA Tour. DJ and the rest of the LIV golfers willfully left the PGA Tour for an alternative that would leave them fewer ways to qualify for the majors. It's not as if the rug was pulled from under their feet. If they're still among the world's best then getting through qualifying shouldn't be a huge hurdle.


I think more qualifying spots for open events is a good thing, but not as a way to remedy the LIV/PGA bifurcation.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Brian_Ewen on March 10, 2023, 09:16:16 PM
GEEZUZ, again?  ::)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Max Prokopy on March 10, 2023, 10:24:17 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the idea is that DJ or whomever is going to be taking a spot from an unknown who's trying to qualify, so make some extra spots for those unknowns who would have had a chance. That said, I don't think it works that way, the number should just be the number.


Right but I don't think the USGA or R&A should be stepping in to smooth out bumps in the road that were created by LIV and the PGA Tour. DJ and the rest of the LIV golfers willfully left the PGA Tour for an alternative that would leave them fewer ways to qualify for the majors. It's not as if the rug was pulled from under their feet. If they're still among the world's best then getting through qualifying shouldn't be a huge hurdle.


I think more qualifying spots for open events is a good thing, but not as a way to remedy the LIV/PGA bifurcation.


The USGA didn't ask for this.  Their job is to try to identify the world's best (granted, during that singular week) on an extremely difficult course.  They don't have to smooth anything for anyone but rather hold the best possible event.  That could include recognizing the potential for more slots. 


This concept has already been applied when the USGA began holding qualifiers in foreign countries with the rationale of trying to make sure the best players were part of the tournament. 
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Mike Bodo on March 11, 2023, 09:54:59 AM
What I find it both ironic and hypocritical in the whole Lost LIV'ers conversation is how LIV was heavily derided by the PGA Tour brass and players that didn't defect last year regarding it's no-cut format and and were in lockstep unison chanting the "No cut. No Points" mantra. Yet, the PGA Tour is going to have eight no-cut events on its calendar next year. Gee, I wonder what inspired that?


Given that LIV's format currently doesn't comply with OWGR points criteria - primarily for their being no cuts in their tournaments, does this mean the players that participate in the eight designated no-cut PGA Tour events next year also do not receive OWGR points? Somehow, I highly doubt it.


Basically, what we have are two sets of OWGR standards - one for the PGA Tour and another for LIV. Or, to put it another way, "Rules for thee, but not for me."
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Rob Marshall on March 11, 2023, 10:15:53 AM
What I find it both ironic and hypocritical in the whole Lost LIV'ers conversation is how LIV was heavily derided by the PGA Tour brass and players that didn't defect last year regarding it's no-cut format and and were in lockstep unison chanting the "No cut. No Points" mantra. Yet, the PGA Tour is going to have eight no-cut events on its calendar next year. Gee, I wonder what inspired that?


Given that LIV's format currently doesn't comply with OWGR points criteria - primarily for their being no cuts in their tournaments, does this mean the players that participate in the eight designated no-cut PGA Tour events next year also do not receive OWGR points? Somehow, I highly doubt it.


Basically, what we have are two sets of OWGR standards - one for the PGA Tour and another for LIV. Or, to put it another way, "Rules for thee, but not for me."


PGA tour has always had a few no cut events. I've seen it referenced when they talk about Tigers no cut record. It's nothing new.


The problem is that the Norman lied to the players or just made promises he shouldn't have. IMO if the Saudi head really has to testify or be deposed he will pull the plug. To many skeletons in his closet. It's not like he gives a shit about golf. Question then will be how long the LIV players have to sit out before being allowed back.



Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Mike Bodo on March 11, 2023, 10:31:50 AM
PGA tour has always had a few no cut events. I've seen it referenced when they talk about Tigers no cut record. It's nothing new.
Never said it was new, but has increased at the players behest - many who ridiculed LIV for it's no-cut format.


I don't have a horse in the race and could care less if LIV survives. I just want there to be a level playing field as it concerns the awarding of OWGR points at any professional golf tournament with a no-cut format regardless of tour.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 11, 2023, 11:13:08 AM
PGA tour has always had a few no cut events. I've seen it referenced when they talk about Tigers no cut record. It's nothing new.
Never said it was new, but has increased at the players behest - many who ridiculed LIV for it's no-cut format.


I don't have a horse in the race and could care less if LIV survives. I just want there to be a level playing field as it concerns the awarding of OWGR points at any professional golf tournament with a no-cut format regardless of tour.


I don’t think the lack of cuts was the only reason for no points. Main problem was the age of the tour, less than a year. Maybe they’ll get points once the tour passes the longevity requirement. Problem is it won’t help much because of the small number of highly-ranked players and small number of players overall will mean LIV tournaments will offer so few points that everyone on the tour will slide inevitably down the OWGR ranking.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 11, 2023, 01:35:36 PM
Vegas has an accurate world ranking.


https://www.vegasinsider.com/golf/odds/masters/ (https://www.vegasinsider.com/golf/odds/masters/)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 11, 2023, 05:41:32 PM
What I find it both ironic and hypocritical in the whole Lost LIV'ers conversation is how LIV was heavily derided by the PGA Tour brass and players that didn't defect last year regarding it's no-cut format and and were in lockstep unison chanting the "No cut. No Points" mantra. Yet, the PGA Tour is going to have eight no-cut events on its calendar next year. Gee, I wonder what inspired that?
The WGCs had no cut. The Tour Championship had no cut. Some of the playoff events, the Tournament of Champions… no cut. European Tour events had no cut, too.

Given that LIV's format currently doesn't comply with OWGR points criteria - primarily for their being no cuts in their tournaments, does this mean the players that participate in the eight designated no-cut PGA Tour events next year also do not receive OWGR points? Somehow, I highly doubt it.
That's not the "primary" reason at all. The other issues that matter more are:
You have no way of really knowing how bad Peter Uihlein is, or even how good Brooks is right now. In years, he (Uihlein) never really sniffed maintaining a PGA Tour card, and yet he "challenged" for a win the other week on LIV. So how good is he? Probably not better than 500th in the world, but because of LIV being what they are… you have no direct way to compare players.

Basically, what we have are two sets of OWGR standards - one for the PGA Tour and another for LIV. Or, to put it another way, "Rules for thee, but not for me."
No.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Garland Bayley on March 11, 2023, 06:57:48 PM

Understood. Does it lose its 5th major status if it excludes some of the best players?


What's up with this? The Masters excludes the most best players!
The US and British Opens excludes many of the best players, and replaces them with amateurs that happen to be on a hot streak.

The PGA Championship excludes many of the best players, and replaces the with club pros.

I think I can live with The Players being a 5th major while excluding LIV golfers.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Garland Bayley on March 11, 2023, 07:09:26 PM

If you really want to talk history and go in the "way back" machine, the four original majors were the U.S. Open, U.S. Amateur, British Open and British Amateurs. When did it change to professional golf majors only and include the Masters and PGA Championship?

When a reporter asked Arnold Palmer what the four majors should be on a flight back from the British Open.

Also, why was The Master's selected over Western Open as a major given the latter was well establihed had been around longer?

Because Arnold had won the Master's, but he hadn't won the Western Open.

Who determined this?

The press.

Same goes for the PGA Championship. Did that tourney become a major for the simple fact it was the premiere evet of the PGA of America?

Because Arnold chose it, and there was no PGA Tour. The PGA was the top professional organization at the time.

If that's the case then why isn't The Players considered a "major" when it's promoted and consentually agreed upon as the premiere event of the PGA Tour?

Because tour pros prefer exclusivity, not competition.

...
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Garland Bayley on March 11, 2023, 07:20:27 PM
...
IMHO Jones' feat is the single most incredible achievement in sports.  He realized he'd have a chance two years earlier after the Walker Cup, because when it was going to be in the UK the Amateur and Open were scheduled to accommodate the players.
...

I disagree. Tiger winning five majors in succession (US Open, British Open, PGA, Player's, Master's) is the single most incredible achievement in sports. Winning the Master's in that sequence was probably the easiest accomplishment since it has the weakest field and has more past winners repeating than the others.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Garland Bayley on March 11, 2023, 07:25:36 PM

The reason the women can have five majors is because


a). they have a lot shorter history than the men's game,
b)  almost nobody knows that history [I could not begin to tell you how many majors any particular woman golfer won], and
c). today's women are better off marketing themselves by establishing more majors so they can win more of them and maybe get some recognition for it




Just for fun I Googled who has the most majors in women's golf, and the first hit was that it was Patty Berg, with 15.  And her 15 consisted of one U.S.Women's Open, and 14 events that are no longer majors -- 7 Titleholders tournaments and 7 Women's Western Opens!


So, yeah, women's majors are a bit murky.  Which is to take nothing away from Patty Berg.  I attended a clinic of hers at Harder Hall in Florida forty years ago, and she was full of life.  A friend of mine shoved me out of the crowd when Ms. Berg wanted a volunteer to demonstrate a couple of things to the assembled group . . . who included a lot of the best amateur players in the country.  They all had a laugh at my expense!

Actually, I would say it is because they control the criteria for entry into the LPGA Hall of Fame.

Quote
And the golfer must have accumulated 27 points, based on these criteria:

A victory in an LPGA major is worth 2 points.
A win in a non-major LPGA Tour event is worth 1 point.
Winning the Vare Trophy (low scoring average) is worth 1 point.
Winning the Player of the Year award is worth 1 point.
Winning the gold medal in golf in the Olympic Games is worth 1 point.
LPGA Hall of Fame Points (Criteria for Election) - Golf Compendium
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 11, 2023, 07:35:29 PM
The PGA Championship excludes many of the best players, and replaces the with club pros.
The PGA traditionally has the strongest field of any of the majors. It wouldn't get much stronger at all if you replaced PGA of America member with the #155 ranked player in the world.

In 2022, in order, it was…
The WGC Match Play was next. Then the two Genesis tournaments (LA, Scotland). Then Jack's event, then Arnie's.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Pete_Pittock on March 12, 2023, 01:15:42 AM
If the LIV was here, I'd be sorrier for the group starting on the 18th than 17.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 12, 2023, 04:14:33 AM
As recently heard on the car radio.
"LIV will keep us together" ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVvwESFJsbI

atb
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: David_Tepper on March 12, 2023, 03:36:36 PM
"Tiger winning five majors in succession (US Open, British Open, PGA, Player's, Master's) is the single most incredible achievement in sports."

Among Tiger's many remarkable achievements (will anyone ever come close to his consecutive cuts made?), his winning 6 USGA championships at matchplay in a row (3 USGA Juniors & 3 USGA Ams) should not be forgotten
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JohnVDB on March 12, 2023, 03:52:38 PM
"Tiger winning five majors in succession (US Open, British Open, PGA, Player's, Master's) is the single most incredible achievement in sports."

Among Tiger's many remarkable achievements (will anyone ever come close to his consecutive cuts made?), his winning 6 USGA championships at matchplay in a row (3 USGA Juniors & 3 USGA Ams) should not be forgotten


Technically, he won one a match play amateur for each of six years in a row, but he lost the US Amateurs after winning the three juniors. In 91 he didn’t make match play, in 92 he lost in the second round to Tim Herron and in 93 he lost in the second round to an Englishman named Paul Page.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 12, 2023, 07:57:21 PM

Understood. Does it lose its 5th major status if it excludes some of the best players?


What's up with this? The Masters excludes the most best players!
The US and British Opens excludes many of the best players, and replaces them with amateurs that happen to be on a hot streak.

The PGA Championship excludes many of the best players, and replaces the with club pros.

I think I can live with The Players being a 5th major while excluding LIV golfers.


100% Concur with Garland on this one.

The Players still in fact has the most amount of top players in the field over any other major all year, even after losing a few to LIV.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ronald Montesano on March 13, 2023, 08:51:00 PM
"Do you have any eights?"

If a question is only a question, does it still demand an answer?

I'm with Ian on the whole VIL topic. His analogy was as accurate as a Ted Lasso dart toss.

The Western Open was a men's professional major for years, until it was no longer a major.


Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Rob Marshall on March 13, 2023, 10:41:56 PM
"Do you have any eights?"

If a question is only a question, does it still demand an answer?

I'm with Ian on the whole VIL topic. His analogy was as accurate as a Ted Lasso dart toss.

The Western Open was a men's professional major for years, until it was no longer a major.


Ben Hogan won the Western Open in Buffalo
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Niall C on March 16, 2023, 12:12:12 PM

I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.



Then I would suggest you don't understand the politics of golf at the highest levels very well.



Tom


I think a lot of people assume that the interests of the different organisations that form part of OWGR are exactly aligned. I'm not so sure. While I'm quite certain that they all would rather that LIV never happened and hope that it fails some time soon, they will also have different reasons for thinking that way and more importantly different aims and objectives.


For instance the PGA sees LIV as an outright competitor that's competing for players and competing for sponsors. Historically by being based in the largest golfing economy they have been able to outspend the competition and in doing so succeeded in poaching most of the best players from other tours. Now they are up against a competitor who seems to have more financial muscle than them, hence the different tactics like banning LIV players from playing in PGA Tour events and withholding ranking points. If they could they would have the R&A and the Masters ban LIV golfers also.


The R&A/Masters on the other hand maybe don't see LIV as a direct threat to their comps, although LIV could yet decide to schedule events directly against them, but I suspect they will be worried of their status being eroded by a reduction in top talent playing in the event. Think of the Open post WWI but pre-Palmer. The top guys who aren't exempt by having previously won a major probably have enough residual points from before they joined LIV for this year and therefore the R&A/Masters can probably afford to kick the can down the road for another year but at some point they are going to have to address the issue if LIV continues.


At that point I imagine the OWGR gets revamped to include LIV or its relevance as far as the majors are concerned diminishes. Bear in mind that the OWGR was originally thought up to assist the R&A with judging who should qualify for the Open.


Niall


 
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 16, 2023, 01:15:11 PM

I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.



Then I would suggest you don't understand the politics of golf at the highest levels very well.



Tom


I think a lot of people assume that the interests of the different organisations that form part of OWGR are exactly aligned. I'm not so sure. While I'm quite certain that they all would rather that LIV never happened and hope that it fails some time soon, they will also have different reasons for thinking that way and more importantly different aims and objectives.


For instance the PGA sees LIV as an outright competitor that's competing for players and competing for sponsors. Historically by being based in the largest golfing economy they have been able to outspend the competition and in doing so succeeded in poaching most of the best players from other tours. Now they are up against a competitor who seems to have more financial muscle than them, hence the different tactics like banning LIV players from playing in PGA Tour events and withholding ranking points. If they could they would have the R&A and the Masters ban LIV golfers also.


The R&A/Masters on the other hand maybe don't see LIV as a direct threat to their comps, although LIV could yet decide to schedule events directly against them, but I suspect they will be worried of their status being eroded by a reduction in top talent playing in the event. Think of the Open post WWI but pre-Palmer. The top guys who aren't exempt by having previously won a major probably have enough residual points from before they joined LIV for this year and therefore the R&A/Masters can probably afford to kick the can down the road for another year but at some point they are going to have to address the issue if LIV continues.


At that point I imagine the OWGR gets revamped to include LIV or its relevance as far as the majors are concerned diminishes. Bear in mind that the OWGR was originally thought up to assist the R&A with judging who should qualify for the Open.


Niall




By the time that happens Niall, the points on offer in a LIV tournament will be so low that it won't be much help to the players on it in terms of getting in to majors.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: MCirba on March 16, 2023, 01:54:22 PM
I guess I would have liked to see Cam Smith play but I truthfully can't say anyone was "missed" and suspect he'd be among the pile-up well behind Scottie Scheffler, especially since he's playing inferior competition these days.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 16, 2023, 03:13:23 PM
I guess I would have liked to see Cam Smith play but I truthfully can't say anyone was "missed" and suspect he'd be among the pile-up well behind Scottie Scheffler, especially since he's playing inferior competition these days.

Mike,

Certainly agreed there, and I'd throw in DJ as well.

But all the other guys who bolted to LIV, its certainly a Bye Felicia kind of deal.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: MCirba on March 16, 2023, 04:03:38 PM

Mike,

Certainly agreed there, and I'd throw in DJ as well.

But all the other guys who bolted to LIV, its certainly a Bye Felicia kind of deal.


Yeah...but for every aging DJ I'll trade you a Morikawa or other young guy doing all of that and more coming on on tour.   ;D
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Stewart Abramson on March 16, 2023, 06:33:10 PM

For instance the PGA sees LIV as an outright competitor that's competing for players and competing for sponsors...


. Now they are up against a competitor who seems to have more financial muscle than them, hence the different tactics like banning LIV players from playing in PGA Tour events and withholding ranking points.

Niall


The above is not really accurate. There are no "different tactics".


 Requiring pga tour participants to play only tour events with limited exceptions/exemptions is not a "different tactic" Players who played (or committed to play) 8 competing events on another tour were never allowed to play the  PGA tour. It's not a ban created for LIV players. It's the same old requirement that to play in pga tour events the player be a PGA tour member in compliance with the rules that he agreed to when he signed his contract to join the tour, which includes not playing in competing events, (or get in by playing a qualifier or get a sponsor exemption.)


The PGA tour doesn't grant or withhold OWGR points.


LIV doesn't allow players from other tours into LIV events. Why should any other tour allow LIV players into their events?
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JohnVDB on March 16, 2023, 08:30:21 PM
If the OWGR doesn’t want to give points to the LIV, the four majors could do something like they do for other tours around the world and exempt the top one or two money winners from LIV.


For example, the USGA gives an exemption to the top Korn Ferry player from the previous year, they could do that for the top LIV player as well.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 18, 2023, 01:29:21 PM
I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.

Niall


But that's the whole thing, if somebody like Niemann isn't qualifying for the future majors by his performance in the majors this year, then how else can it be determined whether he is one of the top players? He can play some of the events on tours that are allowing LIV guys to play, I suppose. But his performance in majors for four weeks of this year are really his auditions for playing in next year's majors. Apart from that his only proof points are going to be his performance in these 54-hole LIV exhibitions, with their strict qualifying criteria of whether you've been invited to play in them.

This is why I was kind of surprised by the level of discourse around the original world ranking decision. Even if LIV gets world ranking points, it will be so few that it would only slightly slow down LIV players' inexorable slide off the list.

Agreed Charlie,

I'd bet the current discussion behind closed doors is just to maintain the status quo of denying LIV substantial if any world ranking points and the "problem" takes care of itself.  (Assuming the Saudis are willing to continue this fiscal charade and flush hundreds of millions down the toilet)


To follow up on this:


https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/the-nine-liv-golfers-who-could-be-playing-their-last-masters-this-year

Here are nine players who, if they don't play well at The Masters next month, are not going to have many other options for qualifying to return next year unless something changes with either Masters eligibility or the OWGR.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 18, 2023, 01:37:10 PM
I think that in practice, if the "world" ranking people don't change their rules to allow for LIV then I think the majors will simply start their own rankings or choose some other metric to decide who gets in to their tournaments so that they continue to get the best field.

Niall


But that's the whole thing, if somebody like Niemann isn't qualifying for the future majors by his performance in the majors this year, then how else can it be determined whether he is one of the top players? He can play some of the events on tours that are allowing LIV guys to play, I suppose. But his performance in majors for four weeks of this year are really his auditions for playing in next year's majors. Apart from that his only proof points are going to be his performance in these 54-hole LIV exhibitions, with their strict qualifying criteria of whether you've been invited to play in them.

This is why I was kind of surprised by the level of discourse around the original world ranking decision. Even if LIV gets world ranking points, it will be so few that it would only slightly slow down LIV players' inexorable slide off the list.

Agreed Charlie,

I'd bet the current discussion behind closed doors is just to maintain the status quo of denying LIV substantial if any world ranking points and the "problem" takes care of itself.  (Assuming the Saudis are willing to continue this fiscal charade and flush hundreds of millions down the toilet)


To follow up on this:


https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/the-nine-liv-golfers-who-could-be-playing-their-last-masters-this-year (https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/the-nine-liv-golfers-who-could-be-playing-their-last-masters-this-year)

Here are nine players who, if they don't play well at The Masters next month, are not going to have many other options for qualifying to return next year unless something changes with either Masters eligibility or the OWGR.



Thanks for posting that.  If that is the actual goal, then that's a quicker result than I initially thought...

Although the ones I'm guessing they would like to exclude like Phil, Pat, and Sergio have thier lifetime achievement status locked in  ;D
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim Martin on March 18, 2023, 04:51:00 PM
It’s not a lock that any more excitement would have been injected into the tournament by letting the LIV guys in. I’ll give Sheffler his due for separating himself from the field but the tournament couldn’t have been any more boring. The lack of drama and the non-existent personality of Sheffler made it a snorefest.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kirk on March 18, 2023, 05:50:45 PM
Based on two minutes of intense analysis for the two dueling pro tournaments today, it looks like this week the LIV is the better option for TV golf guy.

The course looks nice, the players look more athletic and comfortable wearing shorts, and the strength of the field is better.
 
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ken Moum on March 18, 2023, 05:53:48 PM
It’s not a lock that any more excitement would have been injected into the tournament by letting the LIV guys in. I’ll give Sheffler his due for separating himself from the field but the tournament couldn’t have been any more boring. The lack of drama and the non-existent personality of Sheffler made it a snorefest.


So you're agreeing with Harry Higgs that LIV stealing all the assholes is going to ruin pro golf?


The fact that you find Scotty Scheffler any more boring than most of the other clones currently on Tour is interesting. FWIW, I think Scheffler's personality is just fine, being a nice guy isn't a bad thing.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim Martin on March 18, 2023, 06:12:27 PM
It’s not a lock that any more excitement would have been injected into the tournament by letting the LIV guys in. I’ll give Sheffler his due for separating himself from the field but the tournament couldn’t have been any more boring. The lack of drama and the non-existent personality of Sheffler made it a snorefest.


So you're agreeing with Harry Higgs that LIV stealing all the assholes is going to ruin pro golf?


I’m not familiar with what Harry said but your reference doesn’t align with what I wrote in the first sentence of my post which was the only reference to LIV.

Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Max Prokopy on March 18, 2023, 06:16:33 PM
It’s not a lock that any more excitement would have been injected into the tournament by letting the LIV guys in.


No, but having several of the world top 50 sure increases the odds.  It's also not a lock that having Spieth or McIlroy injects excitement if/when they miss the cut. 


I prefer the 4 "majors" to have a meritorious field.

Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ken Moum on March 18, 2023, 06:19:31 PM
It’s not a lock that any more excitement would have been injected into the tournament by letting the LIV guys in. I’ll give Sheffler his due for separating himself from the field but the tournament couldn’t have been any more boring. The lack of drama and the non-existent personality of Sheffler made it a snorefest.


So you're agreeing with Harry Higgs that LIV stealing all the assholes is going to ruin pro golf?


I’m not familiar with what Harry said but your reference doesn’t align with what I wrote in the first sentence of my post which was the only reference to LIV.


Higgs said they were getting all the villains, basically leaving behind the boring guys like Scheffler.  His point was that without villains the competition would be less interesting. 


Excuse my hyperbole.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim Martin on March 18, 2023, 06:28:04 PM
I heard a reference recently to the “Bad Kids Table” at this years Masters Champions dinner. ;D
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: David Harshbarger on March 18, 2023, 06:31:39 PM
It’s not a lock that any more excitement would have been injected into the tournament by letting the LIV guys in. I’ll give Sheffler his due for separating himself from the field but the tournament couldn’t have been any more boring. The lack of drama and the non-existent personality of Sheffler made it a snorefest.


So you're agreeing with Harry Higgs that LIV stealing all the assholes is going to ruin pro golf?


The fact that you find Scotty Scheffler any more boring than most of the other clones currently on Tour is interesting. FWIW, I think Scheffler's personality is just fine, being a nice guy isn't a bad thing.


I have come around on Scottie. The guy seems like a genuinely good guy who is earnestly entrusting the future in his faith in the Lord. I see a guy whose lack of edge is of a piece with his lived faith. That’s hard to do in our modern world and I commend him for living a goodly life as well as for letting his faith help bring his mind to a point of not overly caring about results. That’s incredibly freeing and stress lowering on the course.


His talent is phenomenal and I am glad he is part of the professional golf scene.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ken Moum on March 18, 2023, 07:12:43 PM
I have come around on Scottie. The guy seems like a genuinely good guy who is earnestly entrusting the future in his faith in the Lord. I see a guy whose lack of edge is of a piece with his lived faith. That’s hard to do in our modern world and I commend him for living a goodly life as well as for letting his faith help bring his mind to a point of not overly caring about results. That’s incredibly freeing and stress lowering on the course.


His talent is phenomenal and I am glad he is part of the professional golf scene.


I was his walking scorer at Karsten Creek in the fall of 2011 at the AJGA invitational. He was 15 years old, about 5'5" and a short-hitting wizard around the greens.


I remember him for being especially nice, because his dad asked me to give him a couple of Tylenol for his back. I didn't know who he was, other than being a really nice kid.  Later, I saw Rick Smith quote him in an article about bunker play, not often 15-year-olds get quoted about golf technique.


The next time I saw him he was on  TV winning the US Am. and he was almost a foot taller.


Like a lot of the other players I have walked with, he attracts my attention when he's playing well.  {the latest being Akshay Bahtia)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: David Harshbarger on March 18, 2023, 07:29:29 PM
I have come around on Scottie. The guy seems like a genuinely good guy who is earnestly entrusting the future in his faith in the Lord. I see a guy whose lack of edge is of a piece with his lived faith. That’s hard to do in our modern world and I commend him for living a goodly life as well as for letting his faith help bring his mind to a point of not overly caring about results. That’s incredibly freeing and stress lowering on the course.


His talent is phenomenal and I am glad he is part of the professional golf scene.


I was his walking scorer at Karsten Creek in the fall of 2011 at the AJGA invitational. He was 15 years old, about 5'5" and a short-hitting wizard around the greens.


I remember him for being especially nice, because his dad asked me to give him a couple of Tylenol for his back. I didn't know who he was, other than being a really nice kid.  Later, I saw Rick Smith quote him in an article about bunker play, not often 15-year-olds get quoted about golf technique.


The next time I saw him he was on  TV winning the US Am. and he was almost a foot taller.


Like a lot of the other players I have walked with, he attracts my attention when he's playing well.  {the latest being Akshay Bahtia)


That’s a nice story. Thanks for sharing. The Scottie anecdote I replay is where he’s on the range as a kid and a couple of club pros there are trying to hit a pole about 100 yards out. Scottie asks them what the my are doing then while they watch proceeds to put one shot a little off and the next one “doink” hits the pole.


The guy’s got a gift and much like with Tiger I’m here for it.


(If there is anyone who I could see make a half decent run at Tigers records it’s Scottie. Don’t know if he’ll ever demoralize the competition the way Tiger appeared to, but you can see him winning in bunches year after year after year.)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 18, 2023, 07:55:12 PM
Scottie did finish 6th on the PIP list for 2022.

Unfortunate he's taking criticism for being a nice guy as opposed to the petulant whining on the course from players like JT and Spieth.  And his game speaks for itself, consistently hits phenomenal shots under pressure.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JohnVDB on March 18, 2023, 09:44:47 PM

The next time I saw him he was on  TV winning the US Am. and he was almost a foot taller.


Scottie won the US Junior, not the Amateur.


He beat Davis Riley in the finals when Riley, needing to tie the 34th to keep the match going, called a penalty on himself for causing his ball to move when it wasn’t visible to anyone else. I’ve seen the video of that dozens of times and I’ve never seen the ball move, but he did. Riley has been a favorite of mine since then.


I like Scottie because he seems like a classy guy in the spirit of a Byron Nelson, calmly going about his work with a minimum of fuss.

Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ken Moum on March 18, 2023, 10:09:13 PM

The next time I saw him he was on  TV winning the US Am. and he was almost a foot taller.


Scottie won the US Junior, not the Amateur.


He beat Davis Riley in the finals when Riley, needing to tie the 34th to keep the match going, called a penalty on himself for causing his ball to move when it wasn’t visible to anyone else. I’ve seen the video of that dozens of times and I’ve never seen the ball move, but he did. Riley has been a favorite of mine since then.


I like Scottie because he seems like a classy guy in the spirit of a Byron Nelson, calmly going about his work with a minimum of fuss.


Thanks, he must have been just playing in the Amateur.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Sean_A on March 19, 2023, 03:25:41 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the idea is that DJ or whomever is going to be taking a spot from an unknown who's trying to qualify, so make some extra spots for those unknowns who would have had a chance. That said, I don't think it works that way, the number should just be the number.


Right but I don't think the USGA or R&A should be stepping in to smooth out bumps in the road that were created by LIV and the PGA Tour. DJ and the rest of the LIV golfers willfully left the PGA Tour for an alternative that would leave them fewer ways to qualify for the majors. It's not as if the rug was pulled from under their feet. If they're still among the world's best then getting through qualifying shouldn't be a huge hurdle.


I think more qualifying spots for open events is a good thing, but not as a way to remedy the LIV/PGA bifurcation.


The USGA didn't ask for this.  Their job is to try to identify the world's best (granted, during that singular week) on an extremely difficult course.  They don't have to smooth anything for anyone but rather hold the best possible event.  That could include recognizing the potential for more slots. 


This concept has already been applied when the USGA began holding qualifiers in foreign countries with the rationale of trying to make sure the best players were part of the tournament.

If this were true wouldn't the USGA go straight down the list of world rankings and ignore qualifying? The USGA rides middle ground on the matter. About half qualify and the others are exempt based on previous tour(s) and major results.

The USPGA Tour has no obligation to allow non members to play in their events.

Yes, world rankings should include players from all tours. Its their job to figure how to do this. They will need to do so for the new elevated events so a model should be readily available.

Ciao
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Sean_A on March 19, 2023, 03:41:11 AM
Scottie did finish 6th on the PIP list for 2022.

Unfortunate he's taking criticism for being a nice guy as opposed to the petulant whining on the course from players like JT and Spieth.  And his game speaks for itself, consistently hits phenomenal shots under pressure.

Nice guy? Aren't people criticising SS because he is a boring golf personality? Shows little emotion? I don't watch him enough to know, but that's what I read.

Ciao
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Craig Sweet on March 19, 2023, 11:18:08 AM
Did Phil really have a chunk of his LIV money in SVB?
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 19, 2023, 12:02:26 PM
Did Phil really have a chunk of his LIV money in SVB?


If he did our government protected his deposits.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Ken Moum on March 19, 2023, 12:08:14 PM
Scottie did finish 6th on the PIP list for 2022.

Unfortunate he's taking criticism for being a nice guy as opposed to the petulant whining on the course from players like JT and Spieth.  And his game speaks for itself, consistently hits phenomenal shots under pressure.

Nice guy? Aren't people criticising SS because he is a boring golf personality? Shows little emotion? I don't watch him enough to know, but that's what I read.

Ciao


Quiet, Godly, calm...boring.


Like I said, some people like a villain or three around.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim Martin on March 19, 2023, 03:57:52 PM
https://twitter.com/NotProfMcCarthy/status/1637199918258606080 (https://twitter.com/NotProfMcCarthy/status/1637199918258606080)




 ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Max Prokopy on March 19, 2023, 04:27:15 PM


The USGA didn't ask for this.  Their job is to try to identify the world's best (granted, during that singular week) on an extremely difficult course.  They don't have to smooth anything for anyone but rather hold the best possible event.  That could include recognizing the potential for more slots. 


This concept has already been applied when the USGA began holding qualifiers in foreign countries with the rationale of trying to make sure the best players were part of the tournament.

If this were true wouldn't the USGA go straight down the list of world rankings and ignore qualifying? The USGA rides middle ground on the matter. About half qualify and the others are exempt based on previous tour(s) and major results.

The USPGA Tour has no obligation to allow non members to play in their events.

Yes, world rankings should include players from all tours. Its their job to figure how to do this. They will need to do so for the new elevated events so a model should be readily available.

Ciao


I'm unclear where I made a suggestion that the PGA Tour has an obligation to LIV.  LIV players are obviously not eligible for elevated events, so I'm not sure where that figures into assessing LIV's players. 


The USGA is a completely different story and, as I noted, didn't ask for this. 


I don't like LIV and don't watch it but they obviously have several capable players, players who should be exempt into the majors.  In the interest of crowning the best possible champion, either the governing bodies will have to depart from the OWGR or consider opening up more qualifying spots. 
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: MCirba on March 19, 2023, 04:45:48 PM

https://twitter.com/NotProfMcCarthy/status/1637199918258606080 (https://twitter.com/NotProfMcCarthy/status/1637199918258606080)




 ;D ;D ;D


LIV-ing it up with the murderous Saudis on the trump Trainwreck Tour.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 20, 2023, 09:41:43 AM
Our own Zac Blair got a top 10 on the real tour and not a peep. Is all professional golf the enemy?


Congrats Zac.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 20, 2023, 02:26:55 PM
LIV TV ratings are getting even worse. I confess, I wouldn't have known they were playing an event this week except for seeing stories about Sergio pissing in the cactus.


This brings to mind a great joke Bob Newhart made while roasting Don Rickles back on Dean Martin's show. "Don hasn't done that well in television. One of his shows got a -4 Nielsen rating. This means that not only was nobody watching, but that several people who don't own TV sets had heard about the show and they said if they owned a television set they wouldn't watch the show either".


https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/liv-golf-tv-ratings-cw-tucson-low-01gvxzztws4n (https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/liv-golf-tv-ratings-cw-tucson-low-01gvxzztws4n)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 20, 2023, 02:31:28 PM
How does who watches matter?
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 20, 2023, 02:36:53 PM
That was Sergio? Noice
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Pete_Pittock on March 20, 2023, 02:45:49 PM
That was Sergio? Noice


He could have stood a little closer.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 20, 2023, 02:47:19 PM
How does who watches matter?


It doesn't. I just like that old Bob Newhart joke.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim Leahy on March 21, 2023, 06:35:40 AM
That was Sergio? Noice
Didn't Sergio piss his career away when he left the PGA tour? ;D
JK, that's how Pro golf works if no one watches or buys tickets it ceases to exist. 8)
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Rob Marshall on March 21, 2023, 07:09:42 AM
That was Sergio? Noice
Didn't Sergio piss his career away when he left the PGA tour? ;D
JK, that's how Pro golf works if no one watches or buys tickets it ceases to exist. 8)


Sergio is an idiot. He was always a spoiled brat.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 21, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
That was Sergio? Noice

JK, that's how Pro golf works if no one watches or buys tickets it ceases to exist. 8)


I was a member of a course where we held a Korn Ferry tournament. No one watched, no one bought tickets. It existed solely because a single individual who had the money wished it too.


To say something related to golf is going away because it provides no logical monetary return doesn’t fit with my personal experience.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: MCirba on March 21, 2023, 09:10:34 AM
However, it's undeniable that people are voting with their television remotes and even passionate golf fans are looking askance.


https://nypost.com/2023/03/19/liv-golfs-tv-ratings-somehow-get-worse-with-tucson-event/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2023/03/19/liv-golfs-tv-ratings-somehow-get-worse-with-tucson-event/amp/)


From the article;

"Kevin Van Valkenburg of the golf-centric No Laying Up reports (https://twitter.com/KVanValkenburg/status/1637539776285868036) that LIV Golf scored a 0.14 rating in the key 18-49 demographic across 33 markets from their Arizona-based showcase on Saturday. It’s a worse performance than just three weeks prior. Just last month, LIV Golf had their TV debut for its first 2023 event in Mexico, and the ratings were disastrous. (https://nypost.com/2023/02/27/liv-golfs-tv-debut-was-a-ratings-disaster/)"
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: JLahrman on March 21, 2023, 10:10:29 AM
I was a member of a course where we held a Korn Ferry tournament. No one watched, no one bought tickets. It existed solely because a single individual who had the money wished it too.

To say something related to golf is going away because it provides no logical monetary return doesn’t fit with my personal experience.


JK I agree with you, I don't think how many people watch LIV events or how much money the Saudis lose has anything to do with whether LIV will survive, die, or need to adapt.


I just find the TV ratings amusing.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 21, 2023, 11:21:29 AM
I was a member of a course where we held a Korn Ferry tournament. No one watched, no one bought tickets. It existed solely because a single individual who had the money wished it too.

To say something related to golf is going away because it provides no logical monetary return doesn’t fit with my personal experience.

JK I agree with you, I don't think how many people watch LIV events or how much money the Saudis lose has anything to do with whether LIV will survive, die, or need to adapt.

I just find the TV ratings amusing.


JLhar,

While I understand your point, nearly everything on TV is ratings and ad revenue driven or it gets cancelled.

I know the Saudis have insane deep pockets, but even this one is tough to see going beyond a few years given the massive size of the losses. They're already ~ 1.5 billion in the hole, (granted they won't be paying out those massive signing bonuses anymore), but they've already made skimpy moves like chopping benefits for behind the scenes workers.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim_Cronin on March 21, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
The LIV tournament in Tucson didn't even show up in the weekly sports TV ratings compiled by showbuzzdaily.com from Nielsen data. Only six golf telecasts did: the NBC weekend coverage of Valspar (the high was a 1.62 rating and about 2.6 million viewers on Sunday), Golf Channel's weekday coverage, Golf Channel's early Saturday show, and the Golf Channel late Friday telecast of the Champions Tour (a 0.09 rating and 154,000 viewers). Everything else golf-related didn't make the cut.


Overall, 163 programs were rated, down to two shows with 100,000 viewers: the sports car race in Sebring and a World Baseball Classic game.


----


Update: According to Sports Business Journal, LIV Golf averaged 274,000 viewers for its final round on CW. Saturday's second round averaged 284,000. Twenty-four percent of households, or 29 million homes, were unable to view the telecast because their affiliate did not carry it.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Jim_Coleman on March 21, 2023, 01:18:55 PM
Baseball deserves better. Been great.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim_Cronin on March 21, 2023, 01:31:09 PM
Baseball deserves better. Been great.


That game was on FS2 on Tuesday afternoon. The U.S.-Venezuela WBC game on Fox on Saturday night had 2.26 million viewers against the NCAA Tournament, and more than twice the viewers as an NHL game on ABC at the same time.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Bruce Katona on March 21, 2023, 01:43:35 PM
Because he "walked the walk" and made a living on The Tour, I'm curious of what Pat Burke's opinion on this topic is?  He may have some behind the curtains thoughts of what the guys inside the ropes think about "The Fifth Major."




As for a larger guaranteed paycheck from doing the same thing one was doing; who on this Board hasn't worked for a terrible miserable a$$hat client/boss for what may have been much more compensation that the job warranted; especially if things were tight at home or if the compensation was enough to make a world of difference in one's family life?  The travesty of the Khashoggi killing is just that, a travesty.


I work in real estate.  There are lots of scummy people in this industry. All you can hope for is that your contract is solid enough, your lawyer good enough and the client has enough unencumbered assets to lien if they attempt to $crew and not pay you.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Charlie Goerges on March 21, 2023, 01:54:56 PM
The travesty of the Khashoggi killing is just that, a travesty.




And usually when a travesty occurs, one changes one's behavior as a result. Not sure where you're going with that one.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Michael Morandi on March 21, 2023, 08:32:03 PM
Few things are beyond reproach, least the PGA Tour and our own government. But there is a particular honor that goes along with a game in which the participants are asked to call penalties on themselves. I get it that some LIV golfers might need the money, though I doubt  any are destitute. But for the great majority who do not, they are engaged in an unplayable lie that LIV is meant to expand the game when it is clearly a sport washing  vehicle  for the Crown Prince and a money grab for the Shark, who, despite all his grievances, did not participate in trying to change the tour when he was the number 1 golfer in the world.
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Tim Leahy on March 21, 2023, 08:54:57 PM
The LIV tournament in Tucson didn't even show up in the weekly sports TV ratings compiled by showbuzzdaily.com from Nielsen data. Only six golf telecasts did: the NBC weekend coverage of Valspar (the high was a 1.62 rating and about 2.6 million viewers on Sunday), Golf Channel's weekday coverage, Golf Channel's early Saturday show, and the Golf Channel late Friday telecast of the Champions Tour (a 0.09 rating and 154,000 viewers). Everything else golf-related didn't make the cut.


Overall, 163 programs were rated, down to two shows with 100,000 viewers: the sports car race in Sebring and a World Baseball Classic game.


----


Update: According to Sports Business Journal, LIV Golf averaged 274,000 viewers for its final round on CW. Saturday's second round averaged 284,000. Twenty-four percent of households, or 29 million homes, were unable to view the telecast because their affiliate did not carry it.
Ouch, an accident on an LA freeway gets more views than LIV. :o
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Pat Burke on March 22, 2023, 02:01:34 AM
Because he "walked the walk" and made a living on The Tour, I'm curious of what Pat Burke's opinion on this topic is?  He may have some behind the curtains thoughts of what the guys inside the ropes think about "The Fifth Major."




As for a larger guaranteed paycheck from doing the same thing one was doing; who on this Board hasn't worked for a terrible miserable a$$hat client/boss for what may have been much more compensation that the job warranted; especially if things were tight at home or if the compensation was enough to make a world of difference in one's family life?  The travesty of the Khashoggi killing is just that, a travesty.


I work in real estate.  There are lots of scummy people in this industry. All you can hope for is that your contract is solid enough, your lawyer good enough and the client has enough unencumbered assets to lien if they attempt to $crew and not pay you.




Bruce,
Playing just means I played decently. Opinions? For sure.
I only played two Players Championships and majors at Pebble Beach and St Andrews.


The Players was unique. A big event, but did not have the same feel or pressure as the Opens.
For me, the Players felt a lot like the Australian Open I played at Royal Melbourne. A different type but tournament ready course with a lot of energy for the contestants.
The Players had a purse that was almost like having two events in one week financially.  That was very important given the money list carrots always dangled before us.
The big exemption was huge as well, and the tournament was no doubt big. 


To me, a top of the next tier event more than a major fwiw.  Selfishly, I loved the course, I felt my game was very well suited for it, so I was fired up to play there!
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Marty Bonnar on March 22, 2023, 06:33:08 AM
Quote
Bruce,
Playing just means I played decently. Opinions? For sure.
I only played two Players Championships and majors at Pebble Beach and St Andrews.


And a Senior Open at Carnoustie!  ;D
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Garland Bayley on March 23, 2023, 01:33:24 PM
... a money grab for the Shark, who, despite all his grievances, did not participate in trying to change the tour when he was the number 1 golfer in the world.

the Shark did propose changes to the tour that were rejected by the tour only to have the tour shortly thereafter create the World Golf Championships. I can't say for sure that he did it while he was "the number 1 golfer in the world."
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 23, 2023, 01:38:25 PM
... a money grab for the Shark, who, despite all his grievances, did not participate in trying to change the tour when he was the number 1 golfer in the world.

the Shark did propose changes to the tour that were rejected by the tour only to have the tour shortly thereafter create the World Golf Championships. I can't say for sure that he did it while he was "the number 1 golfer in the world."

Garland he was close enough I'd think

He went public with his proposal at his Shark Shoot-out in mid-November 1994.  At the time he was ranked #2 in the world, just a hair behind Nick Price
Title: Re: LIV free 5th Major
Post by: Pat Burke on March 23, 2023, 04:35:54 PM
Greg certainly tried, as did a number of other players.
Finchem was a great political operator and circled the wagons to fight Greg


Net effect was a WGC scheduled controlled by and centered around the USA tour