Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve Sayre on February 22, 2023, 03:34:35 PM
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Sally Jenkins, daughter of the legendary Dan, absolutely torches LIV today in the Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/02/22/pga-tour-liv-golf/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/02/22/pga-tour-liv-golf/)[/size]
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I'm not a fan of LIV, but that reads like an uninformed, paid hit piece.
"The leader, and only legit major contender, Dustin Johnson ..." Did she forget about the year Cam Smith had in 2022?
"Its jinks-on-the-links-for-clinks gutter golf." I don't even know what that means.
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Can you cut and paste article please?
WaPo link requires subscription and, well, pass on that...;-)
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You can get a tube of Preparation H delivered free but not his rag.
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Can you cut and paste article please?
You're asking someone to infringe copyright?
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The article is free. You just have to enter your email address to access it.
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JK is spot on. The WaPo is a shell of what used to be a respectable paper when run by the grand dame Katherine Graham & Ben Bradlee. Bezos's acquisition has made it read like a mid-level Fleet Street rag.
Dan Jenkins was an informed and respected journalist, who I enjoyed reading.
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I'm not a fan of LIV, but that reads like an uninformed, paid hit piece.
"The leader, and only legit major contender, Dustin Johnson ..." Did she forget about the year Cam Smith had in 2022?
"Its jinks-on-the-links-for-clinks gutter golf." I don't even know what that means.
Dan,
While I think Sally Jenkins is trying, mostly unsuccessfully, to clone her father’s sharp wit, the [size=78%]article doesn’t say that about Johnson and it specifically calls out Smith as the only player currently of quality.[/size]
This is the only mention of either of them:
“[/size][size=78%]In fact, apart from Cameron Smith, it’s mostly a bailout for guys who have lost it. It’s interesting to note that the average age of the PGA Tour’s current top 10 is just 29.5, with Rahm, Scheffler and Collin Morikawa making huge charges in their mid-20s. The LIV top 10’s average age? It’s 35. The leader, Dustin Johnson, is 38.”[/size]
[/size]
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While Ms. Jenkins mentions Mr. Smith, she says only Mr. Johnson is capable of winning a major, which is obviously wrong.
It was a deft skewering otherwise.
I would appreciate Mr. Katona providing examples of the Post's shortcomings, as he sees them. I think I get value for my subscription.
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Please forgive me for diverting away from the basic subject of this post, but the difficulty discussed in opening the article without paying or giving up your email address, which will increase your junk emails, makes me raise my objection to this process.
I have wanted to comment for sometime on posters on here who send a link to an article that doesn't allow free access to open up the link. In a single word--STOP. If you can't send a full, free article, then don't send it at all. Very annoying--and it happens too often on this GCA site.
I'll get off my soapbox.
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Please forgive me for diverting away from the basic subject of this post, but the difficulty discussed in opening the article without paying or giving up your email address, which will increase your junk emails, makes me raise my objection to this process.
I have wanted to comment for sometime on posters on here who send a link to an article that doesn't allow free access to open up the link. In a single word--STOP. If you can't send a full, free article, then don't send it at all. Very annoying--and it happens too often on this GCA site.
I'll get off my soapbox.
Check out the bypass paywalls plugins - for either Chrome or Firefox.
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I'm not a fan of LIV, but that reads like an uninformed, paid hit piece.
"The leader, and only legit major contender, Dustin Johnson ..." Did she forget about the year Cam Smith had in 2022?
"Its jinks-on-the-links-for-clinks gutter golf." I don't even know what that means.
Yes, she forgot about Cam Smith. I have a version open from this afternoon and it says this:
So much for the phony public jeremiads from Norman and his chief recruiter, Mickelson, about how LIV is some kind of liberation from PGA Tour oppression and is the future of the game. In fact, it’s mostly a bailout for guys who have lost it. It’s interesting to note that the average age of the PGA Tour’s current top 10 is just 29.5, with Rahm, Scheffler and Collin Morikawa making huge charges in their mid-20s. The LIV top 10’s average age? It’s 35. The leader, and only legit major contender, Dustin Johnson, is 38.
The updated version, adds "apart from Cam Smith"
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Can you cut and paste article please?
You're asking someone to infringe copyright?
More like controlling cookies that get downloaded to your PC.
Add this extension to Chrome:
https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome
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Please forgive me for diverting away from the basic subject of this post, but the difficulty discussed in opening the article without paying or giving up your email address, which will increase your junk emails, makes me raise my objection to this process.
I have wanted to comment for sometime on posters on here who send a link to an article that doesn't allow free access to open up the link. In a single word--STOP. If you can't send a full, free article, then don't send it at all. Very annoying--and it happens too often on this GCA site.
I'll get off my soapbox.
+1....thank you. My sentiments exactly.
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It’s interesting to note that the average age of the PGA Tour’s current top 10 is just 29.5, with Rahm, Scheffler and Collin Morikawa making huge charges in their mid-20s.
The LIV top 10’s average age? It’s 35. The leader, and only legit major contender, Dustin Johnson, is 38.
LIV: Golf, but OLDER.....;-)
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It’s interesting to note that the average age of the PGA Tour’s current top 10 is just 29.5, with Rahm, Scheffler and Collin Morikawa making huge charges in their mid-20s.
The LIV top 10’s average age? It’s 35. The leader, and only legit major contender, Dustin Johnson, is 38.
LIV: Golf, but OLDER.....;-)
Aren't you forgetting about the guy with the mullet? He's 29 and the most recent major winner.
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Even Phil was the defending PGA champion when he joined LIV.
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The average age of the top 10 LIV golfers is actually 30.56 - one year more than the PGA tour. But facts can ruin a good story. (Not that I am a LIV fan)
| Rank | Name | Age |
| 5 | Cam Smith | 29 |
| 23 | Nieman | 24 |
| 27 | Ancer | 31 |
| 35 | Pieters | 31 |
| 43 | Gooch | 31 |
| 50 | Pereira | 27 |
| 51 | HV III | 32 |
| 54 | DJ | 38 |
| 61 | Reed | 32 |
| Average | | 30.56 |
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Can LIV players play in the PGA? Time for a new Major. Asia anyone?
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Being a life long reader of the Washington Post, I've always enjoyed her prose and biting commentary. She has a lot of her father in her and her father is one of my favorite golf and football writers. I love it when she goes after Dan Snyder (Scum of the Earth).
The Post has had some great sports columnist over the years and her writing fits.
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Can you cut and paste article please?
WaPo link requires subscription and, well, pass on that...;-)
https://www.removepaywall.com/ (https://www.removepaywall.com/)
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The Post has had some great sports columnist over the years and her writing fits.
That may be the case and I agree with her that LIV is terrible. But she f’ed up big time in this article when it comes to basic facts.
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The Post has had some great sports columnist over the years and her writing fits.
That may be the case and I agree with her that LIV is terrible. But she f’ed up big time in this article when it comes to basic facts.
She may have been using the money list from LIV last year....very different from current WR list.
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8)
Got to caddie for Dan Jenkins a few times at Pine Valley when he came in with legendary Texas coach Darrell Royal. They would needle each other all day long and if memory serves Coach Royal typically got the best of Dan in golf but not chirping.
Great memory of some of those times when life was so simple. Caddying at PV and Woodcrest was such a blast!
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Please forgive me for diverting away from the basic subject of this post, but the difficulty discussed in opening the article without paying or giving up your email address, which will increase your junk emails, makes me raise my objection to this process.
I have wanted to comment for sometime on posters on here who send a link to an article that doesn't allow free access to open up the link. In a single word--STOP. If you can't send a full, free article, then don't send it at all. Very annoying--and it happens too often on this GCA site.
I'll get off my soapbox.
This happened to me a couple months ago. I tried to share a link to a NYT article and it didn't work. I have a subscription and I can share the link in certain specific ways. I just didn't understand what I could and couldn't do.
It was the only time I've done this to the best of my recollection. I agree with you, and sorry about the aggravation.
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Can LIV players play in the PGA? Time for a new Major. Asia anyone?
Yes. They just announced that LIV golfers can play in the PGA. So they will be in all four majors in 2023.
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Can LIV players play in the PGA? Time for a new Major. Asia anyone?
Yes. They just announced that LIV golfers can play in the PGA. So they will be in all four majors in 2023.
A win for the fans. Great news.
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Can LIV players play in the PGA? Time for a new Major. Asia anyone?
Yes. They just announced that LIV golfers can play in the PGA. So they will be in all four majors in 2023.
Which ones are eligible currently? Phil, Brooks, Cam Smith, DJ, Mito, Bryson. Anyone else?
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Can LIV players play in the PGA? Time for a new Major. Asia anyone?
Yes. They just announced that LIV golfers can play in the PGA. So they will be in all four majors in 2023.
Which ones are eligible currently? Phil, Brooks, Cam Smith, DJ, Mito, Bryson. Anyone else?
I think they are all eligible to qualify for the US and Open Championships if they are not exempt. I mean, you and I are, too....;-)
Past winners of the PGA and other recent major winners (and maybe top 50) can play in PGA but others prob not as PGA is for the PGA, not LIV.
Masters wont ban them, but will adhere to thier qualification metrics. Past champions and recent major winners or if you are in the Top 50 or something like that.
No issue for DJ, Sergio, Phil, Pat and Charls, but others may get the OWGR corn cob right in the shoot.
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Its not a binary choice, I'll take C) None of the above
P.S. I've been jonesing to watch Breaking Bad again from start to finish, now that football and the West Coast swing is over, easy pick! ;D
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Its not a binary choice, I'll take C) None of the above
Yep. That's the route I'm choosing too.
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I think they are all eligible to qualify for the US and Open Championships if they are not exempt. I mean, you and I are, too....;-)
Maximum handicap for US Open is 1.4. I don't make the cut, but hopefully you do.
Or I could turn pro....
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Well, let's go to a quick reality check there, Pat...;-)
It's currently 4:09 here in Chicago and here's what we have:
1. Channel 199: The Golf Channel showing the Honda Classic.
2. Channel 183: The CW showing Judge Judy now through 6 pm.
what did you say again...?..;-) Cant seem to watch LIV.
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You know the channel number of the CW?
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Well, let's go to a quick reality check there, Pat...;-)
It's currently 4:09 here in Chicago and here's what we have:
1. Channel 199: The Golf Channel showing the Honda Classic.
2. Channel 183: The CW showing Judge Judy now through 6 pm.
what did you say again...?..;-) Cant seem to watch LIV.
I am pretty sure that the CW is only showing Saturday and Sunday coverage.
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Well, let's go to a quick reality check there, Pat...;-)
It's currently 4:09 here in Chicago and here's what we have:
1. Channel 199: The Golf Channel showing the Honda Classic.
2. Channel 183: The CW showing Judge Judy now through 6 pm.
what did you say again...?..;-) Cant seem to watch LIV.
I am pretty sure that the CW is only showing Saturday and Sunday coverage.
Correct, friday coverage is on the CW app. If they really wanted to grow their product they would have stayed on YouTube in my opinion.
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You know the channel number of the CW?
Only because they show some Yankee games here in NJ.
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I'll eat my words....it starts here at 12: 00 CT on WGN.
And, whomever said that the golf over at LIV today is better than at Honda Classic just may be right...;-)
Execpt their field gets fairly week in the back half. But, no question, the LIV top 20 or so can play.
I dont think anyone begrudges them doing this.
It's just the arrogance with which they thought they could double-dip back to the PGA tour at their sole discretion was astonishing.
Leave if you must. But, just like in most jobs and most companies, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out and, NO, you are NOT invited to your old company's events anymore...;-)...!
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I dont think anyone begrudges them doing this.
It's just the arrogance with which they thought they could double-dip back to the PGA tour at their sole discretion was astonishing.
It wasn't just the arrogance people had a problem with, but the B.S. reasons most gave for leaving, i.e. to play fewer events so they could spend more time with their families, when in fact it was all about the money. Fast forward 8 months and some of these same self-proclaimed "family guys" are flying half a world away to play in DP World and Asian Tour events when LIV wasn't in session out of obligation and or boredom. Between the LIV tournaments, majors, DP and Asian World Tour events, some guys (insert Patrick Reed here) will have played 24 - 25 events when it's all said and done. That doesn't come across to me as a reduced schedule to spend more time with the wife and kids.
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So much for watching the LIV tournament via the CW network today. The local affiliate here in Detroit is showing Black History month content instead and a college basketball game following it. >:(
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So much for watching the LIV tournament via the CW network today. The local affiliate here in Detroit is showing Black History month content instead and a college basketball game following it. >:(
An article in golf digest indicated that in any market where a CW affiliate exists, but doesn't broadcast LIV, they had lined up an independent broadcaster to show LIV in that market
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So sad. ;)
Deadline (https://deadline.com/2023/02/liv-cw-nexstar-mexico-tourney-ad-buys-stations-expectations-1235268778/) reports that several CW affiliates will *not* be airing LIV Golf events, including all eight CBS-owned and operated affiliates across the country. Those eight affiliates are in Philadelphia, Atlanta, San Francisco, Tampa, Seattle, Detroit, Sacramento, and Pittsburgh. Additionally, the Weigel-owned affiliate in Chicago will not air LIV, nor will Tegna-owned affiliates like San Diego and Hartford
https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/eight-cbs-owned-cw-affiliates-several-others-will-not-air-liv-golf.html (https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/eight-cbs-owned-cw-affiliates-several-others-will-not-air-liv-golf.html)
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One thing not really addressed here is that international golfers have often had more beefs with the PGA tour over some of their restrictions. It seems like a very proportion of golfers that left the PGA tour for LIV were not born in the US. Lots of Europeans, South Africans, Aussies, Chileans, Mexicans, etc.
In this week's LIV field I count 20 Americans and 28 from elsewhere.
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It was on my local affiliate so I tuned in for about 90 minutes with a few takeaways below:
- The biggest and (perhaps only) positive is it did show more actual golf shots than CBS and NBC. But perhaps this is because they have basically nothing to show in terms of advertisers for commercials, so there weren't many.
- Hearing that much music on the course was a big turnoff to me, and it was mostly house/party music, which would be even worse in this setting.
- While I don't mind Feherty, the amount of inane and non-golf related chat between him and the others was a bit mind-numbing.
- They had a segment on the stuffy traditions of the game, which was a good message IMO, but the pontificating nature of how it was presented was almost amusing.
- Seeing Greg Norman riding his bike around the course... in Spandex....ummm that's a hard no.
- The leaderboard thing that took up most of the left side of the screen was beyond distracting, much less making sense of everything on it.
Overall, it certainly didn't have anywhere near the feel of a legit competition. The golf almost seemed secondary and felt more like a Corporate junket/getaway celebration at no doubt a gorgeous location. Seems pretty clear they are targeting a young demographic, and who knows, it might stick.
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Fun = Good.
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So much for watching the LIV tournament via the CW network today. The local affiliate here in Detroit is showing Black History month content instead and a college basketball game following it. >:(
An article in golf digest indicated that in any market where a CW affiliate exists, but doesn't broadcast LIV, they had lined up an independent broadcaster to show LIV in that market
Great, if only they'd announce who that is. As it was I ended up casting it to my TV from the CW app, but it's frustrating as hell. They should have just stayed on YouTube.
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It was on my local affiliate so I tuned in for about 90 minutes with a few takeaways below:
- The biggest and (perhaps only) positive is it did show more actual golf shots than CBS and NBC. But perhaps this is because they have basically nothing to show in terms of advertisers for commercials, so there weren't many.
- Hearing that much music on the course was a big turnoff to me, and it was mostly house/party music, which would be even worse in this setting.
- While I don't mind Feherty, the amount of inane and non-golf related chat between him and the others was a bit mind-numbing.
- They had a segment on the stuffy traditions of the game, which was a good message IMO, but the pontificating nature of how it was presented was almost amusing.
- Seeing Greg Norman riding his bike around the course... in Spandex....ummm that's a hard no.
- The leaderboard thing that took up most of the left side of the screen was beyond distracting, much less making sense of everything on it.
Overall, it certainly didn't have anywhere near the feel of a legit competition. The golf almost seemed secondary and felt more like a Corporate junket/getaway celebration at no doubt a gorgeous location. Seems pretty clear they are targeting a young demographic, and who knows, it might stick.
I couldn't agree more with your takes above. The pylon leaderboard on the left of the screeen doesn't bother and part of me likes the colorful graphics. Problem is the golf is next to impossible to follow, as the action moves so fast you have no idea what hole anyone is on at any given moment.
To your last comment, this week's event feels more like an exhibition than a serious competition and lacks the itensity and drama of the past two PGA Tour events. While I love the format, for this to work long-term they're going to need to open it up to more players/teams, go to 72 hole tourneys and have some type of 36 hole cut or team relegation. They're needs to be consequences for consistenly shitty play, as there are too many "past their prime" grifters in LIV for anyone to take it seriously.
I texted my brother, a former PGA pro, that Rory, Rahm, Homa, Sheffler and Cantlay would be running circles around these guys were they at this weeks event. I added that when Peter Uihlein is the best player in the field you know you got problems. No offense to him, but the dude hasn't won anything of substance his entire professional golf career.
Unless something demonstrably changes in the short-term, I see the LIV guys having their lunch handed to them in the majors this year. You can tell these guys have lost a lot of their competitive fire and sharpness since joining. Even Cam Smith doesn't look the same as he did a year ago. For the league to be successful and taken seriously it's critically important that their players perform well in the majors. If they can't place at least 3 or 4 guys in the Top 10 of every major and or have a player win one, they'll never be viewed as legitimate.
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Interesting that some of the golfers in shorts were wearing calf-high socks, which are not allowed at private clubs in this area. If you were shorts then your socks must be ankle high(or shorter) or knee high.
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Interesting that some of the golfers in shorts were wearing calf-high socks, which are not allowed at private clubs in this area. If you were shorts then your socks must be ankle high(or shorter) or knee high.
Of all the things not to legislate against at a country club, sock length would be the first thing that comes to mind.
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I watched all five hours of both the LIV Golf and PGA Tour telecasts today, thanks to setting up two TVs side-by-side. I took a few notes on commercials. The LIV telecast had about 45 minutes of breaks. I didn't notice any national ads, though there were plenty of CW Network promos, including one for their other sports offering, a documentary series on the road to the Indy 500 starting in March. There were plenty of local ads on WGN Chicago, plus a few promos for WGN shows and the NewsNation, which runs on WGN America (and which might have run on the CW network, for that matter).
I didn't specifically chart golf shot frequency on the two telecasts, but there did seem to be more on the LIV show. The move by CBS and NBC to rely on Trackman-type graphics for tee shots seems to lead to longer set-ups for a shot. LIV uses those too but gets to the shot faster (and on one hole had an interesting dispersion-pattern graphic for the shots). Both had plenty of aerials and beauty shots.
I only listened to the LIV show. David Feherty seemed in good form, Arlo White anchored well enough, and Jerry Foltz and the on-course folks, also holdovers from last year, still aren't interesting. At least there was less "this is the greatest innovation in golf" tail-kissing than before.
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I watched a lot of the LIV telecast on WGN yesterday.
I admit to enjoying the golf...;-)
The broadcast and the announcers kinda reminded me of watching "Mystery Science Theater 3000" where Ferrety and Co. were like those three robots at the bottom of the screen making comical color commentary on an otherwise plot-less backdrop...;-)
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I was wrong about thinking that YouTube was enough. Even my favorite cigar bar had LIV on next to the PGA.
Shane Lowry has shorts and 54 holes written all over his face. He deserves it.
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Interesting that some of the golfers in shorts were wearing calf-high socks, which are not allowed at private clubs in this area. If you were shorts then your socks must be ankle high(or shorter) or knee high.
Of all the things not to legislate against at a country club, sock length would be the first thing that comes to mind.
Well at least you can wear shorts at any club in Canada. At the fancier Montreal clubs (Royal Montreal, Mt Bruno) you have to have knee high socks, or at least you did about 7-8 years ago. Here in Toronto you can wear shorts everywhere but many or most clubs have sock rules.
I believe that there are a large number of private clubs in the US where shorts are not allowed at all. Better to have a silly sock rule than a no-shorts rule.
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Interesting that some of the golfers in shorts were wearing calf-high socks, which are not allowed at private clubs in this area. If you were shorts then your socks must be ankle high(or shorter) or knee high.
Of all the things not to legislate against at a country club, sock length would be the first thing that comes to mind.
I believe that there are a large number of private clubs in the US where shorts are not allowed at all. Better to have a silly sock rule than a no-shorts rule.
What clubs still have the no shorts rule in effect besides ANGC in the U.S.?
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Bel Air and I think LA Country Club
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So sad. ;)
Deadline (https://deadline.com/2023/02/liv-cw-nexstar-mexico-tourney-ad-buys-stations-expectations-1235268778/) reports that several CW affiliates will *not* be airing LIV Golf events, including all eight CBS-owned and operated affiliates across the country. Those eight affiliates are in Philadelphia, Atlanta, San Francisco, Tampa, Seattle, Detroit, Sacramento, and Pittsburgh. Additionally, the Weigel-owned affiliate in Chicago will not air LIV, nor will Tegna-owned affiliates like San Diego and Hartford
https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/eight-cbs-owned-cw-affiliates-several-others-will-not-air-liv-golf.html (https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/eight-cbs-owned-cw-affiliates-several-others-will-not-air-liv-golf.html)
I'm watching it now on the Tampa affiliate, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good story
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https://twitter.com/jnucci23/status/1629547910047178752?s=61&t=SKoEI8B-GCZl0JndzjaMBw (https://twitter.com/jnucci23/status/1629547910047178752?s=61&t=SKoEI8B-GCZl0JndzjaMBw)
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So sad. ;)
Deadline (https://deadline.com/2023/02/liv-cw-nexstar-mexico-tourney-ad-buys-stations-expectations-1235268778/) reports that several CW affiliates will *not* be airing LIV Golf events, including all eight CBS-owned and operated affiliates across the country. Those eight affiliates are in Philadelphia, Atlanta, San Francisco, Tampa, Seattle, Detroit, Sacramento, and Pittsburgh. Additionally, the Weigel-owned affiliate in Chicago will not air LIV, nor will Tegna-owned affiliates like San Diego and Hartford
https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/eight-cbs-owned-cw-affiliates-several-others-will-not-air-liv-golf.html (https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/eight-cbs-owned-cw-affiliates-several-others-will-not-air-liv-golf.html)
I'm watching it now on the Tampa affiliate, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good story
I heard from two guys today it's unwatchable, They said something about the music being to loud. I am looking forward to seeing Cam Smith this year at Oak Hill. I want to see that putting stroke in person. He's the only guy I miss.
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Charlie three sticks wins LIV. I thought he retired. Another has-been on a joke tour. I'll never watch a minute of this circus even if I could find the channel. :o
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I heard from two guys today it's unwatchable, They said something about the music being to loud. I am looking forward to seeing Cam Smith this year at Oak Hill. I want to see that putting stroke in person. He's the only guy I miss.
I'm a LIV supporter and this week's tournament was the worst I'd seen. It was bad golf all the way around save for Chucky Three Sticks. The fact he won the tournament going away is an embarrassment to the league, considering he hadn't won anything of real substance on the PGA Tour in years. Watching Peter Uihlein snap-hook three consecutve drives into the woods on 11 or 12 and Taylor Gooch follow suit by putting one in the woods on the same hole epitomized just how bad play on the circuit has become. They're all a bunch of fat happy cats with no incentive to practice and keep their games sharp. Greg Norman should take each of their "so-called" stars behind the woodshed and tell them that their level of play is unacceptable.
Mayakoba was probably the worst choice of venues to host their 2023 "coming out" event, as it's a friggin' resort community with no real local population to draw from and few golf fans at that. I suspect the only reason they even went there was due to Norman's connection as course architect, same as the venue hosting the tourney in Adelaide. I suspect LIV received favorable rent terms as a result. However, if their intent was to appeal to the masses in that country and establish LIV as a legitimate alternative to the PGA, they failed miserably. If anyone at LIV had so much as a brain they would have held this event at Chapultepec Country Club outside Mexico City, which had hosted a WGC event each Feb. from 2017 - 2019. That tourney drew massive crowds - mainly locals from the city and surrounding areas. A LIV event there I'm sure would have attracted much the same. So much for their claim of "growing the game." Yeah, let's go to Mexico and have a tournament where the people aren't. That makes sense. LOL!
Bottom line; if the players that are eligible to participate in the majors from LIV don't show up and produce in meaningful ways, the league is dead, as whatever shred of legitimacy it had will be lost.
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I never watch live golf, only recorded where I can skip commercials, puff pieces, and sponsor interviews.
Last season I enjoyed watching LIV on YouTube. Never live, I watched whenever I found it convenient. This week I was unable to watch LIV, as it was not on YouTube, but on CW. I have no local CW OTA station, so I was unable to record. The CW streaming app did not allow watching previous day rounds or allow watching a round from the beginning. Live only. Being busy elsewhere during the live rounds, I missed out. I sure miss YouTube coverage.
LIV will no doubt be unpleasantly surprised when the viewer numbers come out. Picking CW was a big mistake. LIV lost me as a viewer. I’m back to watching occasional recorded Tour telecasts only.
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Picking CW was a big mistake.
Did LIV have its pick of networks?
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Did LIV have its pick of networks?
I highly doubt it. I believe the only reason CW expressed an interest is because they view it as an opportunity to bolster their CW Sports Network intiative. I'm not sure what other sports they air besides Women's College Basketball though.
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I have few remaining numbers in my head. Now I have channel 8. That is worth approximately $16 to the CW.
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Picking CW was a big mistake.
Did LIV have its pick of networks?
YouTube was a much better choice and would generate more viewers. Moving to CW will result in fewer viewers than last season on YouTube. CW adds commercials with a questionable revenue yield while making broadcasts less watchable.
In my opinion, viewership on YouTube would have increased this season had LIV stuck with it as more fans became aware. There must be a strategy to CW that I don't see,
I just discovered that LIV has a streaming app that will let me watch the way I want without CW.
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And the flip side to that...
The Honda had a cracker of a finish yesterday with two guys going toe to toe on the back 9 and ended up in a playoff. I tuned in when I saw they were neck and neck on the 10th hole. Sure they weren't big names but some good drama with trouble lurking everywhere.
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No one in the history of golf has proven more resilient after failure than Norman. This is going to happen. Patience.
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So true JK, so true.
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I dont know if you saw during the broadcast yesterday that Feherty and the two others in the booth aired their OWGR grievances in a 60 second segment that was, for me, just hard to watch as they sounded like a trio of misinformed Trump supporters playing the victim card...it was sad.
They literally started out the segment by decrying the horribly biased media being against LIV.
- They conveniently leave out that the guy who funds the LIV Tour murdered and dismembered one of their WaPo industry colleagues so kinda natural for the rest of the industry to hold a grudge.
They offered that the LIV golfers are being "punished" by OWGR because they chose a personal lifestyle career move.
- They leave out that the LIV golfers all knew this before they signed on the LIV dotted line.
Then they have the gall to offer that the Majors were in jeopardy for many LIV tour members due to OWGR rankings, but that at least in the two Opens they could qualify as the PGA and DP Tours would not allow them to play in their regular events.
- They leave out the fact that THEIR events are closed to ALL golfers in the world regardless of ranking or status unless you are invited by LIV offering the audience a "same-sauce" rinse/repeat of talent without the introduction of fresh faces or guys that just got hot that week.
The Honda Classic, while perhaps a weak field, had two Monday qualifiers on the leader board with Eric Cole finishing second.
It was fun to watch.
LIV will never see this type of competitor - be it Eric Cole or first round contender, Pierceson Coody.
It's not just "Golf, but louder", it's also "Golf, but less inclusive".
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No one in the history of golf has proven more resilient after failure than Norman. This is going to happen. Patience.
I’m sure he’ll need to be resilient again.
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I suspect the only reason they even went there was due to Norman's connection as course architect, same as the venue hosting the tourney in Adelaide. I suspect LIV received favorable rent terms as a result.
The South Australian Government is paying $5m for the LIV event in Adelaide. Might be the only revenue LIV books all year!
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Our CBS affiliate promoted the CW LIV coverage during their late news broadcast. Probably because they use the local CW station for an additional hour of news on a mostly daily basis. Didn't change my viewing habit.
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Well the initial TV ratings for LIV are in and...they're not good. For those of you on this thread claiming you watched LIV this weekend - I'm not sure I believe you. For the record, I didn't watch LIV or World's Funniest Animals so I'm not skewing the results. I guess you've got to start somewhere. And I'm not sure that huge TV ratings are the goal of LIV. But those are some ugly numbers. Golf, But Quieter.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-loses-cw-ratings-battle-to-worlds-funniest-animals (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-loses-cw-ratings-battle-to-worlds-funniest-animals)
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The Honda Classic, while perhaps a weak field, had two Monday qualifiers on the leader board with Eric Cole finishing second.
It was fun to watch.
LIV will never see this type of competitor - be it Eric Cole or first round contender, Pierceson Coody.
It's not just "Golf, but louder", it's also "Golf, but less inclusive".
Agreed, despite the weak field the back nine and playoff at the Honda was fun. That is partially because Kirk hit a horrible shot into 18 that screwed it up, but that is the pressure of tournament golf.
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Learned today that ""World's Funniest Animals" crushed LIV in TV ratings. That's probably a good thing for mankind, frankly.
"World's Funniest Animals" is way better for your soul than watching the "Terrible trump Tour" sponsored by the Saudi Butcher Shop.
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No one in the history of golf has proven more resilient after failure than Norman. This is going to happen. Patience.
I guess it depends how you measure "resilience".
After his utter meltdown at Augusta, despite having already won 80+ tournies world wide, he would only win:
- 2 more PGA Tour of Australasia events
- 2 more PGA Tour events
- 0 European Tour events
- With 18 top 5 finishes in Majors up thru the 96 Masters...and then only 2 more after that.
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No one in the history of golf has proven more resilient after failure than Norman. This is going to happen. Patience.
I guess it depends how you measure "resilience".
After his utter meltdown at Augusta, despite having already won 80+ tournies world wide, he would only win:
- 2 more PGA Tour of Australasia events
- 2 more PGA Tour events
- 0 European Tour events
- 17 top 5 finishes in Majors up thru the 96 Masters...and then only 2 more after that.
Kalen-I don’t think JK was referring to Norman’s resilience as a player. He has been pretty successful in business both inside and outside the game of golf while building an international brand. I’ve always thought his golf legacy mattered less to him than his wealth and business success. Finally the number being batted around as to his take from LIV is between $700 and $800 million.
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I dont know if you saw during the broadcast yesterday that Feherty and the two others in the booth aired their OWGR grievances in a 60 second segment that was, for me, just hard to watch as they sounded like a trio of misinformed Trump supporters playing the victim card...it was sad.
They literally started out the segment by decrying the horribly biased media being against LIV.
- They conveniently leave out that the guy who funds the LIV Tour murdered and dismembered one of their WaPo industry colleagues so kinda natural for the rest of the industry to hold a grudge.
They offered that the LIV golfers are being "punished" by OWGR because they chose a personal lifestyle career move.
- They leave out that the LIV golfers all knew this before they signed on the LIV dotted line.
Then they have the gall to offer that the Majors were in jeopardy for many LIV tour members due to OWGR rankings, but that at least in the two Opens they could qualify as the PGA and DP Tours would not allow them to play in their regular events.
- They leave out the fact that THEIR events are closed to ALL golfers in the world regardless of ranking or status unless you are invited by LIV offering the audience a "same-sauce" rinse/repeat of talent without the introduction of fresh faces or guys that just got hot that week.
The Honda Classic, while perhaps a weak field, had two Monday qualifiers on the leader board with Eric Cole finishing second.
It was fun to watch.
LIV will never see this type of competitor - be it Eric Cole or first round contender, Pierceson Coody.
It's not just "Golf, but louder", it's also "Golf, but less inclusive".
-
Bel Air and I think LA Country Club
CalClub too, where it isn’t shorts weather most of the time anyway.
-
I dont know if you saw during the broadcast yesterday that Feherty and the two others in the booth aired their OWGR grievances in a 60 second segment that was, for me, just hard to watch as they sounded like a trio of misinformed Trump supporters playing the victim card...it was sad.
They literally started out the segment by decrying the horribly biased media being against LIV.
- They conveniently leave out that the guy who funds the LIV Tour murdered and dismembered one of their WaPo industry colleagues so kinda natural for the rest of the industry to hold a grudge.
They offered that the LIV golfers are being "punished" by OWGR because they chose a personal lifestyle career move.
- They leave out that the LIV golfers all knew this before they signed on the LIV dotted line.
Then they have the gall to offer that the Majors were in jeopardy for many LIV tour members due to OWGR rankings, but that at least in the two Opens they could qualify as the PGA and DP Tours would not allow them to play in their regular events.
- They leave out the fact that THEIR events are closed to ALL golfers in the world regardless of ranking or status unless you are invited by LIV offering the audience a "same-sauce" rinse/repeat of talent without the introduction of fresh faces or guys that just got hot that week.
The Honda Classic, while perhaps a weak field, had two Monday qualifiers on the leader board with Eric Cole finishing second.
It was fun to watch.
LIV will never see this type of competitor - be it Eric Cole or first round contender, Pierceson Coody.
It's not just "Golf, but louder", it's also "Golf, but less inclusive".
Well said
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Considering it got a 0.2 television rating, a lot of people fooled themselves and watched the Honda Classic, if they watched golf at all.
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I guess it depends how you measure "resilience".
After his utter meltdown at Augusta, despite having already won 80+ tournies world wide, he would only win:
- 2 more PGA Tour of Australasia events
- 2 more PGA Tour events
- 0 European Tour events
- With 18 top 5 finishes in Majors up thru the 96 Masters...and then only 2 more after that.
Much as I hate to be fair to Greg Norman...to be fair, he was 41 years old at the 1996 Masters so he might not have had a lot of wins left in him had he won The Masters that year anyway.
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Considering it got a 0.2 television rating, a lot of people fooled themselves and watched the Honda Classic, if they watched golf at all.
The LPGA event in Thailand last weekend was the best professional golf tournament of the three. Congrats to Lilia Vu from the U.S. on her first circuit win after knocking on the door a few times the previous two years. She beat a stacked field of women's finest, including world no. 1 Lydia Ko.
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No one in the history of golf has proven more resilient after failure than Norman. This is going to happen. Patience.
I guess it depends how you measure "resilience".
After his utter meltdown at Augusta, despite having already won 80+ tournies world wide, he would only win:
- 2 more PGA Tour of Australasia events
- 2 more PGA Tour events
- 0 European Tour events
- With 18 top 5 finishes in Majors up thru the 96 Masters...and then only 2 more after that.
To be fair, after Norman's meltdown at the 96 Masters, Faldo would only win:
- 1 more PGA Tour event
- 0 European Tour events'
- 0 PGA Tour of Australasia events
- 1 Other win (World Cup Team Event with David Carter)
- 2 top 5 finishes in Majors after his Masters win
In both cases, their drop-off in performance probably has more to do with age than anything else.
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In both cases, their drop-off in performance probably has more to do with age than anything else.
Agree, which is why so many former PGA and D.P. World Tour players in their 40's jumped ship to LIV, as they realized they could no longer comperte for titles against the young bucks at their former tours. The players benefitting the most from LIV are Garcia, Westwood, Stenson, Poulter, Oosthuizen, Schwarzel, Kaymer, Watson, Casey, Howell III, etc. because when the whole thing collapses they'll just slide right into the Champions Tour where they'll be welcomed with open arms, as if the whole LIV thing never happened.
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It is something of a veterans tour. You could almost see some of the host courses hosting an international senior tour down the line.
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It is something of a veterans tour. You could almost see some of the host courses hosting an international senior tour down the line.
Agreed! The question I have is what becomes of the James Piot's, David Puig's and Eugenio Chacarra's of LIV or even the Joaquin Niemann's, Carlos Ortiz's and Mito Perreira's should the league fold? I can't see any of them be welcomed back to the PGA Tour and because none of them have exemptions earned from winning a major, wouldn't be surprised if they're required to play their way back to the PGA Tour through the Korn Ferry or D.P. World Tours.
At least Smith, Bryson, Brooks, D.J., Reed and Watson have a fail safe in place if LIV were to disappear tomorrow. A lot of other guys don't.
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Ratings are in for the weekend. In my market, I had equal access to LIV and PGA and they were on at the same time:
"Estimated golf viewership from the weekend, per a source: LIV Mayakoba: Saturday 286K, Sunday 291K PGA Tour: Saturday 1.61M, Sunday 2.38M"
[/size]With a weak firld at the Honda and with all this supposed firepower in Mexico, this is laying a gigantic egg. Apparently the "18-48" market (LIV's target) made up 48K so it's still an old guy's game on TV.[/color]
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Well, let's go to a quick reality check there, Pat...;-)
It's currently 4:09 here in Chicago and here's what we have:
1. Channel 199: The Golf Channel showing the Honda Classic.
2. Channel 183: The CW showing Judge Judy now through 6 pm.
what did you say again...?..;-) Cant seem to watch LIV.
I downloaded the LIV app on my amazon fire tv...it was pretty easy, and free.
Generally speaking, I think the players and producers are "in" on how ridiculous the team aspect is and it's made it more fun, in my opinion.
It reminds me of a slightly more wacky version of the old European Tour. Love it.
The TOUR has done a nice job elevating events like last week at Riviera. But events like Honda are incredibly boring now.
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Ratings are in for the weekend. In my market, I had equal access to LIV and PGA and they were on at the same time:
"Estimated golf viewership from the weekend, per a source: LIV Mayakoba: Saturday 286K, Sunday 291K PGA Tour: Saturday 1.61M, Sunday 2.38M"
With a weak firld at the Honda and with all this supposed firepower in Mexico, this is laying a gigantic egg. Apparently the "18-48" market (LIV's target) made up 48K so it's still an old guy's game on TV.
Misleading numbers. Ratings measure live televised viewing, while the vast majority of LIV viewers watch on streaming apps. Both tours have a significant number of viewers who don't watch live TV. LIV being televised on CW is pretty poor, as the rating reflect. Hard to understand that deal.
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Well, let's go to a quick reality check there, Pat...;-)
It's currently 4:09 here in Chicago and here's what we have:
1. Channel 199: The Golf Channel showing the Honda Classic.
2. Channel 183: The CW showing Judge Judy now through 6 pm.
what did you say again...?..;-) Cant seem to watch LIV.
The TOUR has done a nice job elevating events like last week at Riviera. But events like Honda are incredibly boring now.
The exodus of players from the PGA Tour to LIV has obviously opened up spots for some players who would not have qualified. New blood is generally good but when I look at some of the leaderboards there is no name recognition at all. So good that the next generation of players are getting a crack but bad in that known players draw viewers.
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The LPGA event in Thailand last weekend was the best professional golf tournament of the three. Congrats to Lilia Vu from the U.S. on her first circuit win after knocking on the door a few times the previous two years. She beat a stacked field of women's finest, including world no. 1 Lydia Ko.
I was the walking scorer for Lilia Vu's singles match at the Curtis Cup matches at Quaker Ridge. She was an amazing shotmaker who worked the ball left, right, high and low. I thought she was the most impressive player on a very talented team. I'm surprised it took her this long to make her mark, as at least three of her Curtis Cup team mates ( most notably Jenifer Kupcho, but also Stephenson and A Lee,) have already had varying degrees of success on the LPGA tour.
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[/quote. But events like Honda are incredibly boring now.
I didn't think the Honda was boring
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Anyone who would rather watch the Honda this week vs. Liv Mayakoba is fooling themselves.
Well, let's go to a quick reality check there, Pat...;-)
It's currently 4:09 here in Chicago and here's what we have:
1. Channel 199: The Golf Channel showing the Honda Classic.
2. Channel 183: The CW showing Judge Judy now through 6 pm.
what did you say again...?..;-) Cant seem to watch LIV.
The TOUR has done a nice job elevating events like last week at Riviera. But events like Honda are incredibly boring now.
Reality is, its been boring for years. Between its poor spot on the schedule and difficult course with grinding conditions, most of the top names have already been skipping it for a long time.
But I think the Tour has too many events as is, so if some proverbial fat needs to be trimmed, probably for the best.
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It is something of a veterans tour. You could almost see some of the host courses hosting an international senior tour down the line.
This was pretty much echoed by writer Dan Wolken from USA Today in the column published yesterday.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2023/02/27/liv-golf-already-past-prime-saudis-gimmicks/11360739002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2023/02/27/liv-golf-already-past-prime-saudis-gimmicks/11360739002/)
The most poignant remark from the column is this.
"And now that everyone has seen what LIV is — and what it isn’t — the danger of significant defections seems to have passed. If Mito Pereira and Thomas Pieters are the best LIV can do now, there is simply no way it can be called a rival. At best, it's a well-paid halfway house between the PGA Tour and senior events."
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[/quote. But events like Honda are incredibly boring now.
I didn't think the Honda was boring
The defection of players to LIV has opened up spots for a new generation of players on the PGA Tour. What’s at issue is that viewers are drawn in by name recognition and that is lacking as compared to pre LIV.
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Aren’t some choices in life so simple that you don’t need someone else to tell you why? Why does that guis opinion matter. No one needs to like the LIV for it to continue to damage the Tour.
This topic has more in common with fat shaming than frilly haired bunkers.
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Ratings are in for the weekend. In my market, I had equal access to LIV and PGA and they were on at the same time:
"Estimated golf viewership from the weekend, per a source: LIV Mayakoba: Saturday 286K, Sunday 291K PGA Tour: Saturday 1.61M, Sunday 2.38M"
With a weak firld at the Honda and with all this supposed firepower in Mexico, this is laying a gigantic egg. Apparently the "18-48" market (LIV's target) made up 48K so it's still an old guy's game on TV.
Misleading numbers. Ratings measure live televised viewing, while the vast majority of LIV viewers watch on streaming apps. Both tours have a significant number of viewers who don't watch live TV. LIV being televised on CW is pretty poor, as the rating reflect. Hard to understand that deal.
Says you...;-)
I watched it on WGN, not the CW. Channel 9 right next to the PGA broadcast on channel 5. You can access WGN all over the country, too.
Plus, all the Xfinity apps and PGA apps and network TV apps all do the same thing as the LIV app. You cant cherry-pick that.
12M people in the greater Chicago area had a direct choice of what golf event to watch on both days.
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Actually, local WGN is no longer a superstation. Those are gone because of syndicated exclusivity rules (though you can watch local WGN in Canada). WGN America, carried on cable systems, is a different animal.
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Meanwhile, the PGA Tour is turning the "elevated" tournaments into 70-to-78-player, no-cut fields next year, Eamon Lynch learned:
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/03/01/pga-tour-approves-radical-schedule-changes-elevated-events/
Said commissioner Pogo, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
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Watching LIV is like crossing a picket line. It feels dirty.
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The TOUR has done a nice job elevating events like last week at Riviera. But events like Honda are incredibly boring now.
It didn't have name players, but the ending to the Honda on Sunday was certainly not incredibly boring. It was pretty compelling actually.
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As I mentioned previously, I don’t have a lot of love lost for the bureaucracy of the pga tour. Based on my own biases…
The announcement of the significant schedule changes by the tour has shown a lot.
Limiting the fields and opportunities in “elevated” events for pga tour members will create a big division on have and have nots. These fields will carry the points and money that will make cracking that top level incredibly difficult.
Of course, back when I was playing a number of top players, wanted a smaller schedule where the top players played more often. So the tour has now moved that direction which is ironically what Phil, Norman, and many “top guys wanted.
There was concern back then that this type of thing would harm the events not included regularly on the “must play” schedule.
The pga tour has, in reaction to LIV, started to create a three level model. Korn ferry/pga tour/elevated events.
It has also created a mandatory schedule for players and more control on them which is positive for sponsors I’d assume.
It has likely harmed the European tour by creating a feeder system of the top ten gaining status on the US Tour
In trying to fight LIV, it has moved into a similar package of fewer playing for more with more control on those players .
Not saying for good or bad, just an amazing change in opportunities for a lot of players
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The TOUR has done a nice job elevating events like last week at Riviera. But events like Honda are incredibly boring now.
It didn't have name players, but the ending to the Honda on Sunday was certainly not incredibly boring. It was pretty compelling actually.
I agree and this coming from a LIV fan. I gave up on the LIV broadcast after Peter Uihlein snap-hooked three consecutive balls into the woods on the 11th or 12th at Mayakoba. Amazingly, he found his first, but it took forever and a day for him to determine if he was going to play the ball as it lied, take relief and a stroke penalty for an unplayable or go back and retee. He ended up going with option two, but it took 15 minutes just to play his next shot. Meanwhile, up at the green they're showing his playing partner, Charles Howell III, putting out to finish the hole prior to Uihlein playing his third. It was an unbearable mess and I decided I'd seen enough follwing the debacle and proceeded to change the channel and watch the finishing holes and playoff of the Honda tournament. I'm glad I did, as it was a compelling finish.
LIV has got some serious structural problems and they're too varied and divissive to fix. There are rumblings that a few big names have buyers remorse and want out. I'll be surprised if the league lasts beyond this year. Heck, I'll be surprised if they finish out the year.
If nothing else, LIV was the best thing to happen to the PGA Tour, as none of the changes we've witnessed would have occurred as quickly as they did without its disruption to the status quo. As a fan of the sport, I'm grateful.
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What is the rationale for the PGA Tour designated events having smaller fields and no cuts? Why can't we still have elevated events but with ~140 players and a cut? That seemed to work fine at the LA And Phoenix events this year.
Why do they need to move to a smaller field? It isn't like they are saving money since about 70 guys get paid out under either scenario. Is it so the top guys are guaranteed a paycheck, regardless of how they play in these designated events?
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What is the rationale for the PGA Tour designated events having smaller fields and no cuts? Why can't we still have elevated events but with ~140 players and a cut? That seemed to work fine at the LA And Phoenix events this year.
Why do they need to move to a smaller field? It isn't like they are saving money since about 70 guys get paid out under either scenario. Is it so the top guys are guaranteed a paycheck, regardless of how they play in these designated events?
Wayne,
Completely agreed here.
I also think having a cut and giving players not in the top 70 a crack at winning a big tourney is important, what better way to prove yourself? And lets face it, those top 70 guys (As a group) are already making a shit ton more in endorsement money than the rest of them and can absorb a missed cut financially far easier.
P.S. I'm not opposed to having another tier in golf overall. Pro Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, etc all do same...
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Golf already has multiple tiers
PGA tour elevated events
Pga tour
Korn ferry
In the USA
Canada and Latin America feed as well
Euro tour
Challenge tour
Japan
Asia
South Africa
Australia
And tons of mini tours
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Golf already has multiple tiers
PGA tour elevated events
Pga tour
Korn ferry
In the USA
Canada and Latin America feed as well
Euro tour
Challenge tour
Japan
Asia
South Africa
Australia
And tons of mini tours
Exactly Pat,
So one more tier is small potatoes right?
P.S. I presume LIV is in the bottom category of "tons of mini tours" ;D
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What is the rationale for the PGA Tour designated events having smaller fields and no cuts? Why can't we still have elevated events but with ~140 players and a cut? That seemed to work fine at the LA And Phoenix events this year.
Why do they need to move to a smaller field? It isn't like they are saving money since about 70 guys get paid out under either scenario. Is it so the top guys are guaranteed a paycheck, regardless of how they play in these designated events?
The only thing that makes sense is being able to guarantee that the top players will be there for the weekend
But they're giving them three opt out weeks.
The only, ONLY, thing that in intrigues me is that the three "regular" events between the elevated ones will be qualifiers for 5-10 players to get into the next elevated events.
-
As I mentioned previously, I don’t have a lot of love lost for the bureaucracy of the pga tour. Based on my own biases…
The announcement of the significant schedule changes by the tour has shown a lot.
Limiting the fields and opportunities in “elevated” events for pga tour members will create a big division on have and have nots. These fields will carry the points and money that will make cracking that top level incredibly difficult.
Of course, back when I was playing a number of top players, wanted a smaller schedule where the top players played more often. So the tour has now moved that direction which is ironically what Phil, Norman, and many “top guys wanted.
There was concern back then that this type of thing would harm the events not included regularly on the “must play” schedule.
The pga tour has, in reaction to LIV, started to create a three level model. Korn ferry/pga tour/elevated events.
It has also created a mandatory schedule for players and more control on them which is positive for sponsors I’d assume.
It has likely harmed the European tour by creating a feeder system of the top ten gaining status on the US Tour
In trying to fight LIV, it has moved into a similar package of fewer playing for more with more control on those players .
Not saying for good or bad, just an amazing change in opportunities for a lot of players
Well said, Pat. But I add the talent pool is SO deep now perhaps it is time for a tertiary split. Just look at the KFT qualifier from yesterday- the players are coming from everywhere (the winner of one of them is a recent graduate from my university, a mid-major in the northeast!)
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No one in the history of golf has proven more resilient after failure than Norman. This is going to happen. Patience.
I guess it depends how you measure "resilience".
After his utter meltdown at Augusta, despite having already won 80+ tournies world wide, he would only win:
- 2 more PGA Tour of Australasia events
- 2 more PGA Tour events
- 0 European Tour events
- 17 top 5 finishes in Majors up thru the 96 Masters...and then only 2 more after that.
Kalen-I don’t think JK was referring to Norman’s resilience as a player. He has been pretty successful in business both inside and outside the game of golf while building an international brand. I’ve always thought his golf legacy mattered less to him than his wealth and business success. Finally the number being batted around as to his take from LIV is between $700 and $800 million.
I think you are right about his priorities. I’ve only met the Shark once, when he was hanging out with a business tycoon who had a sketchy reputation. He’d just signed his big contract with Cobra, which must have felt like peanuts compared to the tycoon who he was with.
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Golf already has multiple tiers
PGA tour elevated events
Pga tour
Korn ferry
In the USA
Canada and Latin America feed as well
Euro tour
Challenge tour
Japan
Asia
South Africa
Australia
And tons of mini tours
Exactly Pat,
So one more tier is small potatoes right?
P.S. I presume LIV is in the bottom category of "tons of mini tours" ;D
I didn’t put LIV because I’m honestly not sure what it is other than a disrupter.
If it is around in 5 years, it will be something very big
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Monday’s Mets Cardinals Spring Training game on ESPN played on a weekday afternoon had twice as many viewers as LIV did over the weekend.
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What is the rationale for the PGA Tour designated events having smaller fields and no cuts? Why can't we still have elevated events but with ~140 players and a cut? That seemed to work fine at the LA And Phoenix events this year.
Why do they need to move to a smaller field? It isn't like they are saving money since about 70 guys get paid out under either scenario. Is it so the top guys are guaranteed a paycheck, regardless of how they play in these designated events?
I think they're relying on the idea that people want to see McIlroy play, even if he's in 60th place, or on the theoretical idea that he could be 60th on Friday, shoot lights out on Saturday, and be back in the mix for Sunday. Instructive here is a quote from Feinstein's A Good Walk Spoiled, which I think was from Frank Chirkinian, the CBS golf producer. He was wondering why in most sports, fans root for the underdog, but not in golf. The conclusion was that golf fans, perhaps other than the most rabid, like people on this site, want to root for someone they recognize. If the PGA Tour is about entertainment, as Max Homa has been saying, there's some logic in getting the stars on TV as often as possible. But for those of us who follow golf closely, the drama of the unknown winning is better.
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The conclusion was that golf fans, perhaps other than the most rabid, like people on this site, want to root for someone they recognize. If the PGA Tour is about entertainment, as Max Homa has been saying, there's some logic in getting the stars on TV as often as possible. But for those of us who follow golf closely, the drama of the unknown winning is better.
I beg to differ and it's very situational with me. I sure as heck wasn't rooting for virtual unknown, Mito Pereira, to win the PGA Championship last year and was hoping he blew up on the final hole so either Thomas or Zalatoris won. I wasn't pulling for Ben Curtis when he won the 2003 Open Championship and wanted Tiger to come from behind on the final round to win it. I wasn't cheering Jean Van de Velde on to win the 1999 Open Championship and wanted Justin Leonard to make a final round charge to win, but by golly were we treated to arguably the greatest meltdown in men's professional golf. I definitely didn't want T.C. Chen winning the 1985 U.S. Open where I caddied, although I really didn't care for eventual winner, Andy North, taking the trophy either.
Conversely, I loved John Daly winning the PGA Championship in 1991 as a last minute alternate. And seeing everyone's favorite beer drinking buddy, Rich Beem, doing the same in 2002. I thoroughly enjoyed watching Zach Johnson hold off Tiger to win the 2002 Masters and Louis Oosthuizen winning the 2010 Open Championship as a relative unknown at the time.
Thus, it really depends on the situation and who the protagonists are as far where my rooting interest lays. Back when I was a youngster I loved watching Johnny Miller play. He was "my guy." I didn't care if he was near the bottom of the leaderboard, I just wanted to see him swing the club on TV and check out his attire that particular day, as I loved his sense of fashion. He at least looked like a rock star on the course even if he didn't always play like one. ;D
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I actually found Peter Malnati’s justification for the reduced fields (on the NLU podcast) persuasive:
As a result of the smaller fields at the designated events, the fields for the other events are that much stronger - 40-50 more top 120 guys playing in those, all desperate to do well enough to take one of the 15 or so spots available for the next designated events (10 from the current FedEx rankings; 5 from the 3 most recent events).
I think that has the potential to make those “second tier” events much more meaningful.
I don’t really buy the rationale for no cuts but on the other hand I can’t really see why the absence of one should detract from the interest in what’s happening at the top end of the leaderboard.
Overall, I think it promises to be a hell of lot better than what we’ve had for the past few years.
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What is the rationale for the PGA Tour designated events having smaller fields and no cuts? Why can't we still have elevated events but with ~140 players and a cut? That seemed to work fine at the LA And Phoenix events this year.
Why do they need to move to a smaller field? It isn't like they are saving money since about 70 guys get paid out under either scenario. Is it so the top guys are guaranteed a paycheck, regardless of how they play in these designated events?
Instructive here is a quote from Feinstein's A Good Walk Spoiled, which I think was from Frank Chirkinian, the CBS golf producer. He was wondering why in most sports, fans root for the underdog, but not in golf. The conclusion was that golf fans, perhaps other than the most rabid, like people on this site, want to root for someone they recognize.
Woods, one of if not the most dominant golfer to ever play professionally, has played in 1025 events and has won 82 of them, for a winning percentage of 8%.
Basically, every player is an underdog in every event.
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What is the rationale for the PGA Tour designated events having smaller fields and no cuts? Why can't we still have elevated events but with ~140 players and a cut?
The rationale is to keep from losing more players to LIV.
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Said commissioner Pogo, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
I am friends with a pro that played the tour in the 70s. He says if the LIV had come about when he was around, he would have fallen to his knees and said thank you. The LIV has been so good for the players on the tour, you would think they invented it out of self interest. The LIV is the Curt Flood of golf.
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I actually found Peter Malnati’s justification for the reduced fields (on the NLU podcast) persuasive:
As a result of the smaller fields at the designated events, the fields for the other events are that much stronger - 40-50 more top 120 guys playing in those, all desperate to do well enough to take one of the 15 or so spots available for the next designated events (10 from the current FedEx rankings; 5 from the 3 most recent events).
I think that has the potential to make those “second tier” events much more meaningful.
I don’t really buy the rationale for no cuts but on the other hand I can’t really see why the absence of one should detract from the interest in what’s happening at the top end of the leaderboard.
Overall, I think it promises to be a hell of lot better than what we’ve had for the past few years.
All the arguments make sense to me. Better for advertisers, fans, top players and if they survive, the regular tour events. One question, does the automatic qualifying field for designated events change each time? Can guys get demoted/promoted between events?
Ciao
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I actually found Peter Malnati’s justification for the reduced fields (on the NLU podcast) persuasive:
As a result of the smaller fields at the designated events, the fields for the other events are that much stronger - 40-50 more top 120 guys playing in those, all desperate to do well enough to take one of the 15 or so spots available for the next designated events (10 from the current FedEx rankings; 5 from the 3 most recent events).
I think that has the potential to make those “second tier” events much more meaningful.
I don’t really buy the rationale for no cuts but on the other hand I can’t really see why the absence of one should detract from the interest in what’s happening at the top end of the leaderboard.
Overall, I think it promises to be a hell of lot better than what we’ve had for the past few years.
All the arguments make sense to me. Better for advertisers, fans, top players and if they survive, the regular tour events. One question, does the automatic qualifying field for designated events change each time? Can guys get demoted/promoted between events?
Ciao
The top 50 from the previous year’s FedEx rankings are in them all. So no chance of demotion from that group until the following year.
The top 10 from the current ranking (not otherwise qualified) will change over the season based on performance in all events.
The top 5 (not otherwise qualified) from each set of preceding 3 “standard” events will qualify for the next 2 designated events. That’s where the biggest rotation will be. Have a good few weeks and then do really well in a designated event and you’ll stand a good chance of qualifying for a few more though.
Plus win any event and you’re into all the designated events for the remainder of the year.
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I actually found Peter Malnati’s justification for the reduced fields (on the NLU podcast) persuasive:
As a result of the smaller fields at the designated events, the fields for the other events are that much stronger - 40-50 more top 120 guys playing in those, all desperate to do well enough to take one of the 15 or so spots available for the next designated events (10 from the current FedEx rankings; 5 from the 3 most recent events).
I think that has the potential to make those “second tier” events much more meaningful.
I don’t really buy the rationale for no cuts but on the other hand I can’t really see why the absence of one should detract from the interest in what’s happening at the top end of the leaderboard.
Overall, I think it promises to be a hell of lot better than what we’ve had for the past few years.
All the arguments make sense to me. Better for advertisers, fans, top players and if they survive, the regular tour events. One question, does the automatic qualifying field for designated events change each time? Can guys get demoted/promoted between events?
Ciao
The top 50 from the previous year’s FedEx rankings are in them all. So no chance of demotion from that group until the following year.
The top 10 from the current ranking (not otherwise qualified) will change over the season based on performance in all events.
The top 5 (not otherwise qualified) from each set of preceding 3 “standard” events will qualify for the next 2 designated events. That’s where the biggest rotation will be. Have a good few weeks and then do really well in a designated event and you’ll stand a good chance of qualifying for a few more though.
Plus win any event and you’re into all the designated events for the remainder of the year.
Thanks. Its a start, although I wish there was no demotion protection. Just go off top 50 exempt after the previous designated event. Some guys will have to scramble their schedules, but that's tough.
Ciao
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Said commissioner Pogo, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
I am friends with a pro that played the tour in the 70s. He says if the LIV had come about when he was around, he would have fallen to his knees and said thank you. The LIV has been so good for the players on the tour, you would think they invented it out of self interest. The LIV is the Curt Flood of golf.
Curt Flood lost in the Supreme Court, then played one miserable season for the Washington Senators, and retired fairly poor. His crusade against the reserve clause and MLB owners eventually bore fruit, but not for him. Is that how you meant your comment?
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Pat Burke:
Thank you for joining in. You offer a very different perspective than most to this debate.
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Said commissioner Pogo, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
I am friends with a pro that played the tour in the 70s. He says if the LIV had come about when he was around, he would have fallen to his knees and said thank you. The LIV has been so good for the players on the tour, you would think they invented it out of self interest. The LIV is the Curt Flood of golf.
Curt Flood lost in the Supreme Court, then played one miserable season for the Washington Senators, and retired fairly poor. His crusade against the reserve clause and MLB owners eventually bore fruit, but not for him. Is that how you meant your comment?
Bad analogy, but sort of. The LIV has sparked big changes in the Tour like Flood’s crusade eventually did. The top Tour players a few years down the road will owe a thanks to the LIV as ball players after Flood did. That said, I’m not sure the LIV will fail and fade away like Curt.
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Pat Burke:
Thank you for joining in. You offer a very different perspective than most to this debate.
Thank you Bruce.
I’m not without opinion and like the great quote
“Often wrong, never in doubt”.
This is an interesting time for professional competitive golf. Not the game of golf, professional golf.
The US Tour has held control over much of the pro golf landscape, and while playing, I often heard “the players are the tour” which was usually uttered by someone like Finchem or one the clique and greeted with many chuckles or rolled eyes. It’s tough for me, the pga tour was a stupidly good opportunity for me to play and chase dreams, but as largely a hockey fan who was lucky to know a lot of great athletes from other sports, the bureaucracy of the tour was taking advantage of the players and for many (not all) it was a one way street.
We played for a smaller % of revenues than the other main sports (my era) and there was, in my opinion, a lot of deflection from the tour when we asked pointed questions about retirement/bonus pools/ and other issues.
Many times the very direct answer was “just play better when you brought up concerns.
When I started to see some success and traveled a lot, you could experience the power the tour held and impacted other tours. The tour loved to create challenges that kept players from their home country tours and wanted to really control players.
I’ve always felt the tour sat high on the hill with little concern for those below them, which made them ripe for a challenge.
Financially, LIV is a giant threat, but Saudi Arabia is a pretty easy foe to stir opposition to.
Some feel that way about Norman, I don’t. My opinion of the Norman situation is it was created in the first world championships where Finchem rallied the good ol boys and really did a number on the IDEA Norman was presenting all while going around creating the same thing in WGC events, the only difference being it was pga tour controlled. Sounds familiar.
So I’m happy to see the tour challenged, and once again not surprised at all they were able to find millions more suddenly, they always do when challenged. I wish the challenge came from backers you could get behind more.
So, my opinions to a point. I understand all who hate what LIV is doing, it’s very difficult
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Pat Burke:
Thank you for joining in. You offer a very different perspective than most to this debate.
I’ve always felt the tour sat high on the hill with little concern for those below them, which made them ripe for a challenge.
Financially, LIV is a giant threat, but Saudi Arabia is a pretty easy foe to stir opposition to.
Some feel that way about Norman, I don’t. My opinion of the Norman situation is it was created in the first world championships where Finchem rallied the good ol boys and really did a number on the IDEA Norman was presenting all while going around creating the same thing in WGC events, the only difference being it was pga tour controlled. Sounds familiar.
So I’m happy to see the tour challenged, and once again not surprised at all they were able to find millions more suddenly, they always do when challenged. I wish the challenge came from backers you could get behind more.
So, my opinions to a point. I understand all who hate what LIV is doing, it’s very difficult
I feel largely the same way as you do. I don't like LIV, who does? But I didn't find the US Tour very entertaining nor squeaky clean from dirty money. So I welcomed LIV chaos. I was (knowingly) unrealistically hoping for a more global US Tour, but at least things have changed. I don't think the changes address my desires so I won't return as a fan of the Tour, but who knows, maybe there are more changes to come? It took a lot for the Tour to wake up, so more changes won't seem so impossible to achieve.
Ciao
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Bad analogy, but sort of. The LIV has sparked big changes in the Tour like Flood’s crusade eventually did. The top Tour players a few years down the road will owe a thanks to the LIV as ball players after Flood did. That said, I’m not sure the LIV will fail and fade away like Curt.
I think that it will fade away. LIV has generated a lot of press, but it is almost all on the business side of what is happening rather than what is happening on the golf course. No one yet cares about the actual golf being played. If that doesn't change then not only do the Saudis keep losing tons of money, but they are also not fulfilling their primary objective, which is to improve their standing via sportswashing. So I think they will devote their resources in other areas, like Formula One, where they may be getting more traction in this area.
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Well, I think the PGA Tour has certainly, once again, expressed their feelings towards Cameron Davis about migrating to the LIV tour as they have paired him, the defending champion, for the first two rounds with Trey Mullinax and Tyler Duncan.
I'm sure Mullinax and Duncan are great guys but there's nothing subtle about the PGA Tour's intent with this pairing...
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Well, I think the PGA Tour has certainly, once again, expressed their feelings towards Cameron Davis about migrating to the LIV tour as they have paired him, the defending champion, for the first two rounds with Trey Mullinax and Tyler Duncan.
I'm sure Mullinax and Duncan are great guys but there's nothing subtle about the PGA Tour's intent with this pairing...
Wrong Cameron. Cam Smith will be playing in Tucson next week.
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Bad analogy, but sort of. The LIV has sparked big changes in the Tour like Flood’s crusade eventually did. The top Tour players a few years down the road will owe a thanks to the LIV as ball players after Flood did. That said, I’m not sure the LIV will fail and fade away like Curt.
I think that it will fade away. LIV has generated a lot of press, but it is almost all on the business side of what is happening rather than what is happening on the golf course. No one yet cares about the actual golf being played. If that doesn't change then not only do the Saudis keep losing tons of money, but they are also not fulfilling their primary objective, which is to improve their standing via sportswashing. So I think they will devote their resources in other areas, like Formula One, where they may be getting more traction in this area.
Ask yourself what it costs to wash an American mind of racism. I believe the Saudis have.
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The Saudis have lost about $1.4 Billion on Credit Suisse in the last six months. It was a different entity than the LIV owner, but I wonder if this will make them pull back at all.