Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Rich Thomas on February 18, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
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Hey all...this may be a little off topic architecturally, but I am looking to start a project to tell the stories from what I consider to be the heartbeat of American golf. I'm looking for stories about municipal golf courses to tell. I want to tell stories of the courses and the people. I am looking for lesser known historically significant courses, to courses with great architecture, and courses with unusual stories and people.
For example, I grew up playing a course in West Central Illinois in the middle of nowhere called Gibson Woods. It's a Homer Fieldhouse layout in the city park. The course has hosted a President, is the home of a major champion, and arguably the home of one of the most successful high school golf programs in the state boasting multiple individual and team state champions from 1980-2002.
We are all familiar with the big name munis like Bethpage, Torrey, and Chambers Bay, and those in the know, are aware of Swope Memorial, Sharps Park, Brackenridge Park, and Winter Park. I was hoping some you would know of some stories, characters, and courses that are worth putting on paper. If anyone is willing to share, I would be very grateful. I know this is going to be a long project and I am just starting to get some ideas in motion, but I have the time and hopefully will have the ability to see this project through.
Again, in advance, thank you for your ideas and help.
Rich
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George Dunne in Oak Forest, Illinois is a very good muni. Owned by the Cook County Forest Preserve and one of the highlights of public golf in the suburbs of Chicago.
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Daylight to dark at Tenison Park. Trevino playing with a taped up Dr. Pepper bottle, not to mention Titanic Thompson.
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Rich,
We recently had a thread that touched on Stanley Thompson’s work, including courses in the Cleveland area.
Big Met in Fairview Park is a course with only a few interesting holes but it gets a ton of play and can be frustrating from a pace of play perspective.
Years ago I played with a guy who told me he bet a local pro he couldn’t break 80 at Big Met. The pro laughed and thought it was a joke until one Saturday afternoon when he painfully struggled through a round of 84.
He liked to play fast and just couldn’t stand the slow pace of play. It cost him a steak dinner.
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Daylight to dark at Tenison Park. Trevino playing with a taped up Dr. Pepper bottle, not to mention Titanic Thompson.
This is the type of stuff I'm looking for. If Ben Hogan calls you the best shot maker he has ever seen, that's saying something.
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No discussion of American Munis is complete without Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.0.html)
Might as well add Paxon Hollow:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70039.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70039.0.html)
Also, Try Torresdale-Frankford, Walnut Lane, Juniata, FDR and Five Ponds
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Rich,
We recently had a thread that touched on Stanley Thompson’s work, including courses in the Cleveland area.
Big Met in Fairview Park is a course with only a few interesting holes but it gets a ton of play and can be frustrating from a pace of play perspective.
Years ago I played with a guy who told me he bet a local pro he couldn’t break 80 at Big Met. The pro laughed and thought it was a joke until one Saturday afternoon when he painfully struggled through a round of 84.
He liked to play fast and just couldn’t stand the slow pace of play. It cost him a steak dinner.
Tim,
I remember that thread. I was getting ready to head up to play Banff and Jasper. Absolutely loved them by the way.
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No discussion of American Munis is complete without Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.0.html)
Might as well add Paxon Hollow:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70039.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70039.0.html)
Also, Try Torresdale-Frankford, Walnut Lane, Juniata, FDR and Five Ponds
Steve,
Cobbs Creek came to mind. I don't know much about it right now. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of experience playing on the East coast. I have a lot to learn and see when it comes to that side of the country. Are the others you listed also east coasters?
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Yes, all those I mentioned are in Philadelphia or nearby.
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How about a public course that began as a private club? Tilly, who was inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame, redesigned and rerouted the existing Cedar Crest Country Club course in 1920. The original course was designed and built in 1919 by S. J. Cooper. He was quite upset when the club hired tilly to rip up what he built and create a new course, so he quite his job and went to another club. He brought with him his son, Harry" not yet Lighthorse" Cooper who, the year before, set the record for the original course at 14 years of age.
In 1926, Macdonald Smith won the Texas Open Championship, today's Valero Open, Smith would be inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame.
Another 14-year old who caddied at the club in 1928, was a young man named Lloyd Mangrum, who turned professional the next year. Both "Lighthorse" Harry Cooper and Lloyd Mangrum were also inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame. In 1927 the course hosted the PGA Championship, won for the last time by Walter Hagen.
Like many clubs of its time, the financial strain of the Great depression drove it into bankruptcy. It was purchased by the city of Dallas, Texas and has been enjoyed by many public players ever since.
In 1954, the course hosted the UGA Negro National Open, won by Charlie Sifford. He would be inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame as well. That same year, Gene Andrews would win the USGA Public Links championship, also contested at Cedar Crest. As far as I know, it is the only course to host the PGA, Negro National Open and the USGA Public Links championships.
This November Cedar Crest will be the site of a new, annual amateur tournament. It has been named the "Southwest Airlines Showcase at Cedar Crest." It is a unique event as there will be 42 invitation sent out, these going to the "top 21 male and female black collegiate golfers in the country." It will be a three-day, 54-hole tournament debuting on November 13, 2023 and each day's play will be televised live by the Golf Channel.
The course will have a tweaking to it later this year and a restorative renovation to take place over the next several years, allowing the course to be open for regular play and the tournament to be played as well. This is going to be an exciting event.
[size=78%].[/size]
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How about a public course that began as a private club? Tilly, who was inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame, redesigned and rerouted the existing Cedar Crest Country Club course in 1920. The original course was designed and built in 1919 by S. J. Cooper. He was quite upset when the club hired tilly to rip up what he built and create a new course, so he quite his job and went to another club. He brought with him his son, Harry" not yet Lighthorse" Cooper who, the year before, set the record for the original course at 14 years of age.
In 1926, Macdonald Smith won the Texas Open Championship, today's Valero Open, Smith would be inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame.
Another 14-year old who caddied at the club in 1928, was a young man named Lloyd Mangrum, who turned professional the next year. Both "Lighthorse" Harry Cooper and Lloyd Mangrum were also inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame. In 1927 the course hosted the PGA Championship, won for the last time by Walter Hagen.
Like many clubs of its time, the financial strain of the Great depression drove it into bankruptcy. It was purchased by the city of Dallas, Texas and has been enjoyed by many public players ever since.
In 1954, the course hosted the UGA Negro National Open, won by Charlie Sifford. He would be inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame as well. That same year, Gene Andrews would win the USGA Public Links championship, also contested at Cedar Crest. As far as I know, it is the only course to host the PGA, Negro National Open and the USGA Public Links championships.
This November Cedar Crest will be the site of a new, annual amateur tournament. It has been named the "Southwest Airlines Showcase at Cedar Crest." It is a unique event as there will be 42 invitation sent out, these going to the "top 21 male and female black collegiate golfers in the country." It will be a three-day, 54-hole tournament debuting on November 13, 2023 and each day's play will be televised live by the Golf Channel.
The course will have a tweaking to it later this year and a restorative renovation to take place over the next several years, allowing the course to be open for regular play and the tournament to be played as well. This is going to be an exciting event.
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Absolutely anything that is a muni. Doesn't matter how it started or how it got there. Cedar Crest sounds like an incredible story. It's definitely going into the notebook. Thank you Phil.
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Rackham, originally designed by Donald Ross, in the Detroit suburb of Huntington Woods
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4239/34914267743_d0ac1d8ed9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VcfKpv)
Rackham Ben Davis memorabila in club house (https://flic.kr/p/VcfKpv)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4044/34914266453_0a17a6bafd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VcfK2g)
Rackham Ben Davis memorabila in cub house (https://flic.kr/p/VcfK2g)
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In my hometown, Avon Fields: https://web.archive.org/web/20151120010742/http://www.wcpo.com/sports/golf/avon-fields-the-black-country-club-of-cincinnati-turns-100
I suppose it's not a muni anymore but it has been for the vast majority of its 100+ year history.
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Rancho Park in LA has a ton of history that could be a book on its own including hosting the LA Open including a plaque on the 18th tee to Arnold Palmer commemorating his 12 on the hole which included 4 fairway woods OB after a perfect drive. When asked about it he said he missed a 25 ft putt for an 11. Rancho was once the busiest course in the US and has history with Charlie Safford also.
Another muni with history is Haggin Oaks in Sacramento, CA designed by Allister MacKenzie. Unfortunately it has been hacked up by freeways and bad architectural choices but is still one of the busiest courses in America with a 24 hour driving range. The clubhouse snackbar has the original Mac plans and every table has newspaper clippings including the course's history which included an exhibition with Babe Ruth, Walter Hagen, the governor at the time and a celebrity whose name escapes me. The course has held professional events in the past and the state open for years.
Santa Anita muni has a great history being built by hand during the Depression with remnants of the original Santa Anita racetrack still visible on the course.
Good hunting 8) .
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Rich,
Check out the story of Audubon Golf Course in New Orleans. It started as a private club in 1899 on leased land in Audubon Park. The city took over the golf course by the 1920s. A young prodigy Joe Bartholomew got his start there as did many generations of caddies and players. The first pro was a Scot named William Stoddard from Brookline. Later Fred McLeod was the professional. Audubon Park was laid out by the Olmsted Bros. after the New Orleans hosted the World’s Fair in 1884. The golf course was converted to a par 60 executive course in 2002. The golf course shares space with hundreds of joggers, walkers, cyclist, tourist, students, etc. on a daily basis. There is also a world class zoo so close that your can hear the lions roar. A little nerve racking to say the least! Good luck with your project.
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Desert Willow Golf Resort in Palm Desert, CA is an unusual muni in that it feels and plays much like any of the surrounding high-end resort courses. There are two Hurdzan-Fry designs (with consultation from John Cook) that opened in the late '90s.
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Stewart - That looks interesting. I will definitely look into Rackham.
JLahrman - Avon Fields sounds amazing. Stories like these are what I want to bring to the golf world, and not keep them just local stories.
Tim - I already had Rancho Park and Santa Anita on my list to look at.
Philip - Thank you for the info on Audubon.
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Rich,
Indian Canyon in Spokane, WA is one to consider.
Designed by Chandler Egan and hosted several USGA events in the past. The original clubhouse and pro shop still in use, built out of lava rock that is common in the area give it a great old time feel. Its the one course i'm most familiar with that really begs for a restoration, a real gem.
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JLahrman - Avon Fields sounds amazing. Stories like these are what I want to bring to the golf world, and not keep them just local stories.
Rich, I believe (and I think the article mentions) that Avon Fields was the first municipal course west of the Allegheny Mountains. It is a quirky but fun layout, a bit clausterphobic so hardhats are a good idea! In addition it was where most of the Black players around Cincinnati were welcome and learned to play back when things were more segregated. Avon Fields was operated through the city via the Cincinnati Recreation Commission, one of perhaps a half dozen courses. Separately, Hamilton County operates several courses of its own including Sharon Woods which I would consider to be my childhood home course. It's fun to play as well, and Bobby Jones drove the ceremonial first ball back in 1938. But for a unique course with historical relevance Avon Fields would probably be your best bet in Cincinnati.
Thanks for bringing up this topic, I also agree that municipal golf is the heartbeat of golf in the US. Of the meager amount of golf I play, probably 80% of it is at municipal courses. I've found a few good ones here in my new hometown of Grand Rapids MI.
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No discussion of American Munis is complete without Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.0.html)
Might as well add Paxon Hollow:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70039.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70039.0.html)
Also, Try Torresdale-Frankford, Walnut Lane, Juniata, FDR and Five Ponds
Rich,
i am happy to give you more info and stories regarding Paxon Hollow
feel free to contact me directly.
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Here is one intersting story in regards to Paxon Hollow
The (1940) PGA Championship returned to the Section at the Hershey Country Club and the Philadelphia Section had seven places to qualify for. The Section qualifying was held at the Paxon Hollow Country Club on the second Monday in August. Ted Turner was the low qualifier with a nine-under-par (69-66) 135. Charlie Sheppard was second with a 136 and Jimmy Thomsonfinished third at 137. Walter Brickley,the professional at the Riverton Country Club,and Bruce Coltarttied for fourth with 138s. Five professionals tied at 139 for the last two qualifying places in their national championship. In an 18-hole playoff the next morning Ed Dudley and George Fazio secured the last two places. Dudleyshot a ten-under-par 62 which was thought to be the lowest competitive round ever shot in the Philadelphia area, pro or amateur, and Fazio’sscore was 65.The three that didn’t make it were Gene Kunes(71), Matt Kowal(73) and Jimmy D’Angelo(74). Leo Diegelwas exempt as a former PGA champion and Sam Sneadhad an exemption as a member of the Ryder Cup team. Henry Picardwas exempt as the defending champion and the host professional.
interesting side note is that "62" is still the lowest "compeitive" round ever recorded at Paxon Hollow and my father witnessed this first hand as he was caddying for one of the other players in the playoff that day. "Gene Kunes"
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Rich,
Check out the story of Audubon Golf Course in New Orleans. It started as a private club in 1899 on leased land in Audubon Park. The city took over the golf course by the 1920s. A young prodigy Joe Bartholomew got his start there as did many generations of caddies and players. The first pro was a Scot named William Stoddard from Brookline. Later Fred McLeod was the professional. Audubon Park was laid out by the Olmsted Bros. after the New Orleans hosted the World’s Fair in 1884. The golf course was converted to a par 60 executive course in 2002. The golf course shares space with hundreds of joggers, walkers, cyclist, tourist, students, etc. on a daily basis. There is also a world class zoo so close that your can hear the lions roar. A little nerve racking to say the least! Good luck with your project.
Peeking through the trees at Audubon Golf Course from the walking path a few weeks ago. A truly special park and place.
(https://i.ibb.co/Yc2gnhh/20230129-130610.jpg)
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Walnut Lane in Philadelphia designed by Alex Findlay, par 62, 4510y:
https://golfclubatlas.com/countries/walnut-lane/
After finishing your round, a walk nearby to D'Allesandro's for their famous cheesesteak can't be beat,
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Walnut Lane in Philadelphia designed by Alex Findlay, par 62, 4510y:
https://golfclubatlas.com/countries/walnut-lane/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/countries/walnut-lane/)
After finishing your round, a walk nearby to D'Allesandro's for their famous cheesesteak can't be beat,
You had me at cheesesteak ;)
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There were a lot of stories around Memorial Park from the older guys when we were starting to rebuild the golf course. Dave Marr practically grew up on the grounds, and rumor has it his ashes were spread there. Memorial was the place for money games back in that era . . . all of the Texas players knew it well. Even until just before he died, Doug Sanders was hanging around the practice tee, giving lessons. Unfortunately, most of those who knew them are going to join them in the beyond, and there aren't many guys around who remember that generation anymore.
But I hope you don't just stick to the courses of architectural interest. So many of us in the golf business grew up on a muni or we never would have had access to the game. Everyone thinks Ben Crenshaw was a country-club kid from CC of Austin, but he grew up walking distance from Lions Muni, which he is now trying to save from redevelopment by the University which he attended.
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Wailua Muni, Kauai. Maybe the most underrated muni in the country, especially when comparing value to the local options. A superb routing, good conditions, 2x USGA Public Links host.
And chickens.
(https://i.ibb.co/RcWPb1x/20221211-110733.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/yY2xC8d/20221211-145212-1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/rwCy8TC/20221213-121857.jpg)
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Langston Golf in DC.
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There were a lot of stories around Memorial Park from the older guys when we were starting to rebuild the golf course. Dave Marr practically grew up on the grounds, and rumor has it his ashes were spread there. Memorial was the place for money games back in that era . . . all of the Texas players knew it well. Even until just before he died, Doug Sanders was hanging around the practice tee, giving lessons. Unfortunately, most of those who knew them are going to join them in the beyond, and there aren't many guys around who remember that generation anymore.
But I hope you don't just stick to the courses of architectural interest. So many of us in the golf business grew up on a muni or we never would have had access to the game. Everyone thinks Ben Crenshaw was a country-club kid from CC of Austin, but he grew up walking distance from Lions Muni, which he is now trying to save from redevelopment by the University which he attended.
Mr. Doak,
As you suggest, I don't plan on sticking with architecturally significant courses. Lions Muni is a course that I wanted to look at as well. I was not aware of the Ben Crenshaw connection. There is a great wealth of knowledge on this site and that is why I reached out. My heart and soul belong to those unknown munis and while I do enjoy playing a top ranked course, I am perfectly content playing a less maintained no name course. That's where we find the beating heartbeat of American golf in my opinion.
Rich
ps...If you need a 40 year old paid intern to go around the country playing courses so you can make updates for the next edition of your Confidential Guide, just let me know. Consider this my official application. ;)
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Rich -
I played Gibson Woods as a high schooler in the same time period as Monmouth's major champion. He was a freshman when I was a senior and he whipped everybody.
I grew up playing Baker Park in Kewanee Illinois. City owned and operated. Built in the 1920’s. Front nine is called the flats. Back nine is the hills. When it’s in good shape it’s tons of fun. 17th hole is a tight drivable par 4. The 15th is a 210 yard par 3. The tee and green are at the top of hills that are used as sled and toboggan runs during the winter. So it’s a wild cart ride. Greens have been restored to previous sizes and the people running the joint really seem to know what they’re doing.
I live in Augusta now and the Augusta Municipal Golf Course, known to locals as the Patch, has some interesting holes and a couple of greens that are just a sand wedge distance to the Daniel Field Airport runways.
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Rich -
I played Gibson Woods as a high schooler in the same time period as Monmouth's major champion. He was a freshman when I was a senior and he whipped everybody.
I grew up playing Baker Park in Kewanee Illinois. City owned and operated. Built in the 1920’s. Front nine is called the flats. Back nine is the hills. When it’s in good shape it’s tons of fun. 17th hole is a tight drivable par 4. The 15th is a 210 yard par 3. The tee and green are at the top of hills that are used as sled and toboggan runs during the winter. So it’s a wild cart ride. Greens have been restored to previous sizes and the people running the joint really seem to know what they’re doing.
I live in Augusta now and the Augusta Municipal Golf Course, known to locals as the Patch, has some interesting holes and a couple of greens that are just a sand wedge distance to the Daniel Field Airport runways.
Doug,
What a small world. You probably know Mel Blasi as well. He was my college coach at Western Illinois. I always thought Baker Park was a decent little course. Back then, I didn't know much outside of a 60 mile radius. It's been quite some time since I have been there though
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Interesting timing on this issue. Putting aside the efforts by the National Links Trust in DC, several other Munis have undertaken restoration efforts. The USGA has created a working group to support Munis both in fighting efforts to retake property for alternative uses and to assist in efforts to improve the facilities. More to come on the working group.
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There are not a lot of munis in South Carolina, but the Charleston Muni is quite a fantastic story. It has been remodeled into a great course that rivals the best in the area. It has its issues due to budgets, but the course is now a “must play” in the Charleston area… and, that says a lot!
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8) Rich,
I'd nominate Ottawa Park in Toledo, OH, which dates to 1899 with SP Jermain the proponent and a little earlier with the Dutch farmers who cut the first holes out of the woods... SP was major mover and shaker of the USGA and got the first US PubLinks Championship there in 1922... when he wasn't busy at Inverness. 8)
My home course from 1960... great history
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When I think of "muni" I think of Kahuku Golf Course on Oahu. I've golfed with many locals and many of them wrinkle their nose and say "You drove all the way up there to play that place?!?!?"
But every so often you get paired up with someone and mention Kahuku and their eyes light up. They give you that look like "Oh damn, this haole knows about our secret spot!"
A nine hole, wind swept, sand based, playground that will set you back $30 for each 9. You aren't there for a monostand of turf, roomy locker room, or state-of-the-art practice facility. If you want that you can go next door to Turtle Bay.
It is the definition of a muni and it's the most fun you'll have in Hawai'i for $30.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52699716970_2f49899346_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohTPPQ)IMG_20220208_175546_967 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohTPPQ) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52699563579_ba5b59deee_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohT3ea)20220208_084030 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohT3ea) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52698782937_ded6e0f890_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohP3aP)20220208_084807 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohP3aP) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52699717180_de04deddeb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohTPTs)20220208_085810 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohTPTs) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52699298566_6f21605491_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohRFrY)20220208_091348 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohRFrY) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52699795463_3cef811e20_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohUeaa)20220208_095426 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohUeaa) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52698811002_118181a936_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohPbvG)20220208_085040 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohPbvG) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52699592954_46a40529b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ohTbXC)20220208_083229 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohTbXC) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
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Rackham, originally designed by Donald Ross, in the Detroit suburb of Huntington Woods
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4239/34914267743_d0ac1d8ed9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VcfKpv)
Rackham Ben Davis memorabila in club house (https://flic.kr/p/VcfKpv)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4044/34914266453_0a17a6bafd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VcfK2g)
Rackham Ben Davis memorabila in cub house (https://flic.kr/p/VcfK2g)
How cool! My dad bought my first set of clubs from
Ben and finagled a free lesson from Ben’s assistant Tommy Horton who was a heck of a player.
Great memories !
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The Long Beach County courses are truly exceptional in what they offer to all golfers ("average" or otherwise) at a fair price. In order, Big Rec, Eldo and Skylinks are all a ton of fun and collectively representative of the bedrock/'heartbeat" of what makes "golf" great! Nearby Los Verdes Golf Course is probably better than the LBC courses -- be sure to tee off early!!
In my own (limited) experience the only real "municipal" option that trumps the LBC and LV courses is the New York State parks & rec system, of which the crown jewel is obviously the Bethpage State Park courses. As a close friend is wont to say...."oh my"...
In addition, the New York City courses like Vannie, Pelham/Split Rock, Dyker, Clearview & La Tourette can really be terrific if you hit them on the right day & time.
Lastly, from a personal perspective, I'd mention Harding Park where I've had wonderful experiences and made lasting friends...
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In the crowd for the PGA at Cedar Crest was a teenager named Byron Nelson.
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If you follow up on Chris's post above, that should be Long Beach City courses, not county. (They're in L.A. County.) Coincidentally, yesterday I played Skylinks for the first time in about 30 years.
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Chris, you have initiated texting with friends about a road trip north from San Diego.
The Hawaii munis! :D Some day…
San Diego area munis: Balboa in SD and, a bit north, Oceanside. Balboa has been a DG topic. I can’t say much about Oceanside after one play several weeks ago. I liked the price, the quirky routing, the beauty of the adjoining hills (Camp Pendleton is on the other side of those hills). A regular said the place had improved recently: extraneous turf removed, money better spent on greens, etc.
Oh, and the place beginning with the letter T.
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San Diego area munis: Balboa in SD and, a bit north, Vista in Vista.
Do you mean Oceanside in Oceanside?
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Yes, Mark, thank you; correction made.
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I have not watched this presentation but will. Waveland in Des Moines, IA https://youtu.be/TWbz2ADxwC4
I would also look into Keller in St. Paul, MN
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You could do worse than include Franklin Park and George Wright in Boston. The former is the romantic place where public golf was first played in 1890, even if it wasn't a formalized course until around 1894. You Can Go Home Again - Northeast Golf Magazine (https://www.northeast.golf/instruction/you-can-go-home-again/)
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Chris, you have initiated texting with friends about a road trip north from San Diego.
The Hawaii munis! :D Some day…
San Diego area munis: Balboa in SD and, a bit north, Oceanside. Balboa has been a DG topic. I can’t say much about Oceanside after one play several weeks ago. I liked the price, the quirky routing, the beauty of the adjoining hills (Camp Pendleton is on the other side of those hills). A regular said the place had improved recently: extraneous turf removed, money better spent on greens, etc.
Oh, and the place beginning with the letter T.
Greg, you left off Coronado, probably the best not starting with Torrey. 8)
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Chris, you have initiated texting with friends about a road trip north from San Diego.
The Hawaii munis! :D Some day…
San Diego area munis: Balboa in SD and, a bit north, Oceanside. Balboa has been a DG topic. I can’t say much about Oceanside after one play several weeks ago. I liked the price, the quirky routing, the beauty of the adjoining hills (Camp Pendleton is on the other side of those hills). A regular said the place had improved recently: extraneous turf removed, money better spent on greens, etc.
Oh, and the place beginning with the letter T.
Greg, you left off Coronado, probably the best not starting with Torrey. 8)
+1: Coronado is absolutely the best not starting with Torrey. One of the best walks in America.
Further up the coast, San Clemente Muni is also one of my favorite places to play.
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Miami (Fla.) Springs. That Jackie Robinson was responsible for desegregating the golf course is just one of several fascinating stories I heard when I visited a few years ago.
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The Phoenix area has some interesting munis:
Papago Golf Club opened in 1963 and quickly became popular with Phoenix area residents. It hosted the US Amateur Public Links Championship in 1971, the 2009 J Golf Phoenix LPGA International and numerous Phoenix Open Qualifying events.In the early days, it was common to wait in line before opening a la Bethpage,
https://papagogolfclub.com/about-the-course/ (https://papagogolfclub.com/about-the-course/)
Also, Grand Canyon University proudly presents the GCU Golf Course masterfully redesigned by renowned course architect John Fought. Using sublime artistry and expert craftsmanship, Fought transformed the golf course into a golfer’s dream playground where golf novices and pros alike can enjoy perfecting their game. The same routing was used by Fought transforming a run down muni into a test of golf. It's not a pushover.
https://www.gcugolf.com/course-information/course-history/ (https://www.gcugolf.com/course-information/course-history/)
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Consider the following Munis from New Jersey all formerly private clubs:
Rock Spring, West Orange, NJ - Seth Raynor design and former private club - wonderful layout and even has some views of Manhattan skyline. Now owned by West Orange, NJ.
Rock Spring Golf Club - Play Golf in West Orange, NJ (https://rockspringgolf.com/)
Hopewell Valley Golf & Country Club, Hopewell, NJ. Tom Winton design from the 1920s. Now part of the Mercer County park system. Solid golden age layout with Stony Brook flowing through.
Hopewell Valley Golf & Country Club - Mercer County Golf (golfmercercounty.com) (https://golfmercercounty.com/hopewell-valley/)
Hominy Hill, Colts Neck NJ - Solid 1963 Robert Trent Jones design formerly a private course owned by the Henry D Mercer (shipping magnate) family. Now part of the Monmouth County park system.
Monmouth County Park System Golf Hominy Hill Course (https://www.monmouthcountyparks.com/page.aspx?Id=2582)
Monmouth County Park System: Celebrating 60: Hominy Hill Golf Course (http://monmouthcountyparksystem.blogspot.com/2020/06/celebrating-60-hominy-hill-golf-course.html)
These are all really solid courses available to the public in three different regions of the state.
NJ ~ LOOK before you laugh !!
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Hello Rich, by now you're possibly inundated but I think my current "home" course might be of interest:
Marine Park is part of New York City's system of muni's. Marine Park was built on an old garbage dump in what is essentially a swamp (think Secaucus or Meadowlands NJ and you're close). The fairways used to include lots of crushed glass bottles and tire tread. Now it's in quite fine condition, especially considering the crowds.
The design is RTJ II and I think includes some good attributes: the playing corridors are super wide to accommodate the number of people. It's really hard to lose a ball. Things get more interesting at the greens, bunkers are low-profile, and there is always some wind near Far Rockaway.
Let me know if you have interest in hearing more.
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Consider the following Munis from New Jersey all formerly private clubs:
Rock Spring, West Orange, NJ - Seth Raynor design and former private club - wonderful layout and even has some views of Manhattan skyline. Now owned by West Orange, NJ.
Rock Spring Golf Club - Play Golf in West Orange, NJ (https://rockspringgolf.com/)
Hopewell Valley Golf & Country Club, Hopewell, NJ. Tom Winton design from the 1920s. Now part of the Mercer County park system. Solid golden age layout with Stony Brook flowing through.
Hopewell Valley Golf & Country Club - Mercer County Golf (golfmercercounty.com) (https://golfmercercounty.com/hopewell-valley/)
Hominy Hill, Colts Neck NJ - Solid 1963 Robert Trent Jones design formerly a private course owned by the Henry D Mercer (shipping magnate) family. Now part of the Monmouth County park system.
Monmouth County Park System Golf Hominy Hill Course (https://www.monmouthcountyparks.com/page.aspx?Id=2582)
Monmouth County Park System: Celebrating 60: Hominy Hill Golf Course (http://monmouthcountyparksystem.blogspot.com/2020/06/celebrating-60-hominy-hill-golf-course.html)
These are all really solid courses available to the public in three different regions of the state.
NJ ~ LOOK before you laugh !!
Monmouth County Parks system is so good, golf and otherwise.
Also in NJ, Essex County has Francis Byrne and Hendricks Field, both done by Charles Banks in 1926 and 1929 respectively, and Weequahic, the oldest public course in NJ and designed by the George Low. All were in pretty terrible shape 25 years ago but I played Byrne a few years ago and it was much improved. Would highly recommend visiting.
No history because it was just built but Skyway in Jersey City is a great example of what can be done with the worst driving range of all time and a literal dump, a model for urban muni golf.
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Yesterday the Golf Channel had a segment about Langston golf course a muni in DC. It was among the first, if not the first, course open to African Americans and has a very interesting history as a bastion of golf for African Americans. The segment is worth looking for
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I'm a self-professed "muni rat" and I've played about 3 of every 4 courses mentioned here so far which is scarily obsessive compulsive. ;)
Off the top of my head I'd say don't neglect Denver, Salt Lake City, Baltimore, or the state of Maine in your muni hunt.
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Thank you everyone who has come forward with ideas of places to look at and dig into. I really do appreciate the help and insights that everyone on this site has given me. Please feel free to reach out if something else comes to mind. Thank you.
Rich
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Eastmoreland Golf Course in Portland, OR is an E. Chandler Egan design. Egan is credited for work that brought Pebble Beach into prominence and also for designing three courses where the US Public Links championship was held, Eastmoreland, West Seattle, and Indian Canyon which hosted two times.
An interesting story about Eastmoreland is that its inclusive membership allowed Bill Wright to establish a handicap so that in 1959 he could become the first black American to win the Public Links championship. Bill was a Seattle Washington resident, but no Washington course would allow him to establish a handicap there, so his father set it up for him to play at Eastmoreland to establish a handicap, which of course was required to participate in a USGA championship.
http://www.eastmoreland100.com/read-stories/bill-wright-the-1959-usga-public-links-champion-from-eastmoreland
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Schenley Park in Pittsburgh began with nine holes in 1897 and was 18 by 1903. Renamed the Bob O'Connor ("The Bob") in honor of a mayor, its website says it's walking only. A quirky routing, including street crossings. Views of the Oakland section of town, most prominently the University of Pittsburgh's Cathedral of Learning. Sounds from Forbes Field audible back in the day?
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Played both Eastmoreland and Schenley. Love courses in urban neighborhoods and each has their own character.
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Winnetka Golf Club was William Langford's first solo effort. He may have started working on it in 1914. The 9-hole course opened in 1917. I believe he added 9 holes in 1922. It's been through a few renovations so I am not sure how much Langford is left. The course was redeveloped in the 1930s by C.D. Wagstaff and Chick Evans, the first player to win the U.S. Amateur and the U.S. Open in the same year. Only one other player ever accomplished that feat. It was the grand slam winner!
Langford also designed the club's 9-hole Par 3 course that I grew up playing. Rode four blocks on my bike to the golf course. My brother and I had a newspaper route and we delivered papers to homes on the adjacent streets, including to one in the middle of the property that the Langford routed the Par 3 course around. It opened in 1961. It might have been the last course Langford designed in his life.
It would be extraordinary to see the village restore the courses to their Langford original designs!
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Rich,
I've done a bunch of work on iconic municipal courses over the last decade, including
Bacon Park in Savannah
Keller Golf Course in St. Paul
A new Braemar Golf Course in Edina, Minnesota
Tanglewood Championship Course in Clemmons, NC
as well as currently working on Bobby Jones Golf Club in Sarasota (under construction), Hollywood Beach Golf Club in Hollywood, Florida, Kennedy Golf Course in Denver, and the Woodlands and Hamptons Golf Courses in Hampton, Virginia. I have spent a lot of time with the golfers themselves walking all these courses, gaining a good perspective on what Mike Keiser would refer to as the retail golfer. Yet these aren't necessarily the same ones he serves at his public courses. These are golfers who bleed for the their municipal homes, much like many of the GCAers here have already expressed. I would love to share with you when you get further into your idea.
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Kennedy Golf Course in Denver,
Oh I look forward to this. Badly needed.
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When I think of "muni" I think of Kahuku Golf Course on Oahu. I've golfed with many locals and many of them wrinkle their nose and say "You drove all the way up there to play that place?!?!?"
Thanks Cal, I'm very impressed. Wonderful pictures. Did you ever post your Landmand shots?
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Rich,
I don't think it's been mentioned yet but a muni whose past might be worth further investigation is North Fulton Golf Club (AKA Chastian Park). When I took up the game in the late 80s would play most of my golf at North Fulton and heard all kinds of stories about big matches and money games among professionals and locals leading up to the Masters. Although most of the people who told those stories are probably dead by now there may be a few of them left. I believe it was originally designed by Chandler Egan on a decent piece of land.
Bill
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North Fulton has quite a number of excellent holes. Conditions when I played back when are sketchy, at best, but the bones are quite good.
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You know, North Fulton Golf Course is one of my all-time favorites. When I lived in Atlanta (from 1991-1996), I played there all the time and it actually influenced much of my design philosophy about how fairway contours are the most "equalizing" of all hazards. For instance, if I recall the fourth hole (or maybe it is 13 now?), it was a short par four with an elevated tee playing down into a valley and then back up to an even more elevated green with a road down the right side.
Standing on the tee, the fairway was wide and open and had no bunkers. But what it had was a small plateau along the straight line from tee to green that was position A for anyone who wanted to make birdie. So it took a very accurate tee shot to hit this target but you were rewarded with a fifty to eighty yard pitch with an almost eye-level view of the putting surface. But if you missed the target, then you rolled all the way down to the bottom of the valley and had a longer, uphill approach to a blind green from that angle.
For the better golfers, it was a great challenge with great reward. But if you were less-skilled, it was wide-open and didn't present too many problems. Most likely, the lesser-skilled didn't even notice the existence of that small plateau.
So, to me, that is what I would call an excellent golf hole that challenges all skill levels, certainly those looking for a challenge, without doling out undue penalty.
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Rich - a muni to look into: a 9 hole course in Venice Beach called Penmar. Part of the city of LA group of courses. Made the news in the last decade when Harrison Ford crashed his vintage plane there, but it's a fun course and important to the area.
Rancho Park in LA is another muni gem with some interesting history when it briefly hosted the LA Open. It is across the street from Hillcrest CC (which is discussed a decent bit on this site it seems) and the 20th Century Fox Studios. Morgan Freeman used to play a lot at Rancho - that doesn't matter for architecture purposes, of course, but adds to the local lore.
MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY ---- I have played Gibson Woods (a really fun course) and know very well how great the local high school team is there. I went to law school with Scott McClintock, who is the best golfer I've ever played with. Playing at Gibson Woods was hilarious - every player there appeared to be scratch level, all the way down to the guys wearing jean shirts and tanktops (at least the day I was there). Every single guy was a great golfer. It was like stumbling onto the set of TIN CUP. One of the more entertaining weekends of golf I've ever experienced.
But I can confirm both the design merits of Gibson Woods, as well as the colorful local history.
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Rackham, originally designed by Donald Ross, in the Detroit suburb of Huntington Woods
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4239/34914267743_d0ac1d8ed9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VcfKpv)
Rackham Ben Davis memorabila in club house (https://flic.kr/p/VcfKpv)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4044/34914266453_0a17a6bafd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VcfK2g)
Rackham Ben Davis memorabila in cub house (https://flic.kr/p/VcfK2g)
Ben Davis....he was a legend....my dad bought my first set from him
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Twin Falls Muni in Twin Falls, Idaho might be interesting. Recently they honored with a statue and plaque the Hiskey brothers.Babe, was an All-American at North Texas State, played both the PGA and Champions tour for many years and was the first tour player to win playing Ping irons.Jim was an All-American at Houston and played the tour for several years before going into the ministry, he helped start the PGA Tour Chapel, a traveling church for tour players.Sonny was considered to be the best of the 3, was an All-American at North Texas State but tragically was killed in an Air Force training mission.
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Hey all...this may be a little off topic architecturally, but I am looking to start a project to tell the stories from what I consider to be the heartbeat of American golf. I'm looking for stories about municipal golf courses to tell. I want to tell stories of the courses and the people. I am looking for lesser known historically significant courses, to courses with great architecture, and courses with unusual stories and people.
For example, I grew up playing a course in West Central Illinois in the middle of nowhere called Gibson Woods. It's a Homer Fieldhouse layout in the city park. The course has hosted a President, is the home of a major champion, and arguably the home of one of the most successful high school golf programs in the state boasting multiple individual and team state champions from 1980-2002.
We are all familiar with the big name munis like Bethpage, Torrey, and Chambers Bay, and those in the know, are aware of Swope Memorial, Sharps Park, Brackenridge Park, and Winter Park. I was hoping some you would know of some stories, characters, and courses that are worth putting on paper. If anyone is willing to share, I would be very grateful. I know this is going to be a long project and I am just starting to get some ideas in motion, but I have the time and hopefully will have the ability to see this project through.
Again, in advance, thank you for your ideas and help.
Rich
This sounds like a great project. I've always wanted something similar done about military base golf courses. This is where I learned to play. They are close cousins to Munis, and they trigger great memories in me. The Cypress Tree golf course at Maxwell Air Force Base was a great example. Two courses, west and east. The west course had 2 or 3 consecutive holes (it's been a few years...) bordering an active runway. Every year there was an air show, and if you golfed that day, jets were roaring over your head seemingly just over the tree line.
I got my first ever eagle on that course in 1991, holing out with a 7 iron on the 18th hole of the west course, a shot of about 150 yards, over a shaggy-edged canyon. I kept the ball for years.
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Stevens Park in Dallas and Eastmoreland in Portland come to mind as good ones to check out. Very much enjoyed playing both places.
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The Cypress Tree golf course at Maxwell Air Force Base was a great example. Two courses, west and east. The west course had 2 or 3 consecutive holes (it's been a few years...) bordering an active runway. Every year there was an air show, and if you golfed that day, jets were roaring over your head seemingly just over the tree line.
I got my first ever eagle on that course in 1991, holing out with a 7 iron on the 18th hole of the west course, a shot of about 150 yards, over a shaggy-edged canyon. I kept the ball for years.
I believe the courses are now closed. Tough to compete with the RTJ trails courses that offer great military rates.
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Twin Falls Muni in Twin Falls, Idaho might be interesting. Recently they honored with a statue and plaque the Hiskey brothers.Babe, was an All-American at North Texas State, played both the PGA and Champions tour for many years and was the first tour player to win playing Ping irons.Jim was an All-American at Houston and played the tour for several years before going into the ministry, he helped start the PGA Tour Chapel, a traveling church for tour players.Sonny was considered to be the best of the 3, was an All-American at North Texas State but tragically was killed in an Air Force training mission.
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The Cypress Tree golf course at Maxwell Air Force Base was a great example. Two courses, west and east. The west course had 2 or 3 consecutive holes (it's been a few years...) bordering an active runway. Every year there was an air show, and if you golfed that day, jets were roaring over your head seemingly just over the tree line.
I got my first ever eagle on that course in 1991, holing out with a 7 iron on the 18th hole of the west course, a shot of about 150 yards, over a shaggy-edged canyon. I kept the ball for years.
Cypress Tree is still open...but judging from the website it's only 1 course now, the west. I don't think there are any RTJ courses in Montgomery. I think the closest is Prattville, which is about 30 minutes away.
At least when I was on active duty (mid 80's-2004), military golf courses were a far better deal than anything else. You typically played 18 holes for $10-15, depending on the quality of the course and in some cases your rank. And they were less crowded than local munis.
I believe the courses are now closed. Tough to compete with the RTJ trails courses that offer great military rates.
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Cypress Tree is still open...but judging from the website it's only 1 course now, the west. I don't think there are any RTJ courses in Montgomery. I think the closest is Prattville, which is about 30 minutes away.
At least when I was on active duty (mid 80's-2004), military golf courses were a far better deal than anything else. You typically played 18 holes for $10-15, depending on the quality of the course and in some cases your rank. And they were less crowded than local munis.
John I was stationed at Maxwell and left in 2020. One course on Maxwell was open at that time but it shut down within the last year. Maybe you are looking at an unofficial page, check out the 42d FSS page. They still have a driving range with top tracer tech. It's surprisingly expensive at $35-$45/hr, but you get the bay so a group of 6 can split the cost.
I lived in the Heights apartment between downtown and the gate. It took me less than 15 minutes to get to RTJ Capitol Hill in Prattville. I played the course on Maxwell once. I don't remember exact costs but it was within $10 of the military rate at Capitol Hill and the quality of the courses at Capitol Hill were worth it.
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Hey all...I've been absent from here for a while due to some life changes. I am looking at getting back to this project very soon. I have gone back and re-read the thread and all the wonderful ideas from everyone. I am looking forward to getting this started. I am currently in Nashville, left Las Vegas last summer and my wife and I are living the RV life 4-5 months at a time. Hopefully that gives me the ability to get out and experience some of these places and learn their stories. Again, thank you for the support and great ideas.
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I think Five Ponds in Warminster, Bucks County, PA deserves some attention. Usually, very busy and in good condition:
https://5pondsgc.com/ (https://5pondsgc.com/)
https://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FivePonds/index.html (https://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FivePonds/index.html)
Another course in the Philly suburbs is Jeffersonville, a Donald Ross creation.
https://www.jeffersonvillegolfclub.org/layout/
https://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Jeffersonville_2022/index.html
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Kahuku Golf Course on Oahu comes to mind.
You can get some background here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbRFfXOeB0w).
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Good book on history of Black golf and Forest Park Golf Course in St. Louis by Floyd Hall Jr. & Jim Healy called THE BOYS IN THE PARK.
https://www.lulu.com/shop/floyd-hall-jr/the-boys-in-the-park/hardcover/product-23852604.html?page=1&pageSize=4 (https://www.lulu.com/shop/floyd-hall-jr/the-boys-in-the-park/hardcover/product-23852604.html?page=1&pageSize=4)
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Rich, Bruce Hepner recently completed renovation of the 9 holes Percy Warner muni at the end of Belle Meade Blvd. in Nashville. An incredible parcel at the foot of the largest city park in the country.
I live in Franklin and am retired. Let’s tee it up there on a weekday as your schedule permits. Lunch on me at Sportsmen’s Grill post round. Text or email if you’re in.
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Rich, Bruce Hepner recently completed renovation of the 9 holes Percy Warner muni at the end of Belle Meade Blvd. in Nashville. An incredible parcel at the foot of the largest city park in the country.
I live in Franklin and am retired. Let’s tee it up there on a weekday as your schedule permits. Lunch on me at Sportsmen’s Grill post round. Text or email if you’re in.
Mike...I love the idea of getting together for a round out there. The only place I have played out here so far has been Nashboro. Looking forward to the warmer weather coming up. I will send you a private message with my phone number and we can set up a time.
Rich
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Rich, Bruce Hepner recently completed renovation of the 9 holes Percy Warner muni at the end of Belle Meade Blvd. in Nashville. An incredible parcel at the foot of the largest city park in the country.
I live in Franklin and am retired. Let’s tee it up there on a weekday as your schedule permits. Lunch on me at Sportsmen’s Grill post round. Text or email if you’re in.
Vinny Links is technically a muni in Nashville too right Mike? The story is they found Ross plans in storage and used them to build some greens this century?
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Rich, Bruce Hepner recently completed renovation of the 9 holes Percy Warner muni at the end of Belle Meade Blvd. in Nashville. An incredible parcel at the foot of the largest city park in the country.
I live in Franklin and am retired. Let’s tee it up there on a weekday as your schedule permits. Lunch on me at Sportsmen’s Grill post round. Text or email if you’re in.
Vinny Links is technically a muni in Nashville too right Mike? The story is they found Ross plans in storage and used them to build some greens this century?
I haven't found much yet on Ross being responsible for the design of Vinny Links yet other than just a credit on a random website, but it also looks like he is responsible for Shelby Bottoms as well...how did I not realize this earlier. I have some golf to get in before I head back out west at the end of April!!
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Hey all...this may be a little off topic architecturally, but I am looking to start a project to tell the stories from what I consider to be the heartbeat of American golf. I'm looking for stories about municipal golf courses to tell. I want to tell stories of the courses and the people. I am looking for lesser known historically significant courses, to courses with great architecture, and courses with unusual stories and people.
For example, I grew up playing a course in West Central Illinois in the middle of nowhere called Gibson Woods. It's a Homer Fieldhouse layout in the city park. The course has hosted a President, is the home of a major champion, and arguably the home of one of the most successful high school golf programs in the state boasting multiple individual and team state champions from 1980-2002.
We are all familiar with the big name munis like Bethpage, Torrey, and Chambers Bay, and those in the know, are aware of Swope Memorial, Sharps Park, Brackenridge Park, and Winter Park. I was hoping some you would know of some stories, characters, and courses that are worth putting on paper. If anyone is willing to share, I would be very grateful. I know this is going to be a long project and I am just starting to get some ideas in motion, but I have the time and hopefully will have the ability to see this project through.
Again, in advance, thank you for your ideas and help.
Rich
Hi Rich,
Carroll Park, muni in Baltimore historically significant to Civil Rights movement. The golf course was integrated in 1951.
1923 - Carroll Park open - 9 holes
1934 - African Americans allow to play, every other day
1951 - Carroll Park fully desegregated
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20064205?searchText=&searchUri=&ab_segments=&searchKey=&refreqid=fastly-default%3A94ee007a914c869408d336d12eec5804 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/20064205?searchText=&searchUri=&ab_segments=&searchKey=&refreqid=fastly-default%3A94ee007a914c869408d336d12eec5804)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/30034226 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/30034226) or unedited format below
https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA179194994&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=00167428&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=nysl_oweb&isGeoAuthType=true&aty=geo (https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA179194994&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=00167428&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=nysl_oweb&isGeoAuthType=true&aty=geo)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5149/9781469634234_demas.6?seq=2 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5149/9781469634234_demas.6?seq=2)