Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: AChao on February 13, 2023, 08:14:55 PM
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Is it part of the genius of Riviera's architecture that Tiger hasn't done that well there or is it just an anomaly?
As a reminder, Tiger came T2 in 1999. He lost in a playoff in 1998 but that event was held at Valencia CC which is a fine course but not really similar or comparable to Riviera. He was T5 in 2003 and T7 2004. Aside from that, he didn't have any really solid tournaments, and he's missed the cut a fair amount also.
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Tiger won because he killed the PGA Tour on par 5 holes. At Riviera everyone reaches #1 with a 7 iron and #17 used to be hard to reach in 2. That leaves only #11 for him to pile up the strokes. Hard to imagine he couldn’t have done better at So. Cal. course with [size=78%]Kikuyu and Poa Annua greens. [/size]
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Tiger won because he killed the PGA Tour on par 5 holes. At Riviera everyone reaches #1 with a 7 iron and #17 used to be hard to reach in 2. That leaves only #11 for him to pile up the strokes. Hard to imagine he couldn’t have done better at So. Cal. course with [size=78%]Kikuyu and Poa Annua greens. [/size]
I buy part of this explanation, but he did do well at Pebble Beach through the years and I'd argue the net difference in par 5s doesn't explain all of the difference.
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Tiger won because he killed the PGA Tour on par 5 holes. At Riviera everyone reaches #1 with a 7 iron and #17 used to be hard to reach in 2. That leaves only #11 for him to pile up the strokes. Hard to imagine he couldn’t have done better at So. Cal. course with Kikuyu and Poa Annua greens.
Tiger did more than that. Yes, he dominated par fives, but he also played par fours better than anyone, too, and that's the bulk of a golf course, as you know.
Why didn't he ever win there? Could be lots of reasons, including… chance. Randomness. He didn't win every time, and sometimes when you flip a coin you get heads a bunch of times in a row.
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Is it part of the genius of Riviera's architecture that Tiger hasn't done that well there or is it just an anomaly?
As a reminder, Tiger came T2 in 1999. He lost in a playoff in 1998 but that event was held at Valencia CC which is a fine course but not really similar or comparable to Riviera. He was T5 in 2003 and T7 2004. Aside from that, he didn't have any really solid tournaments, and he's missed the cut a fair amount also.
Great question, and I think just an anomaly. It's not like Tiger didn't have the tools to win at Riviera (he has them all), so probably just a strange coinkydink.
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Never played it, but isn't Riv a course that punishes you pretty well if you can't hit it straight? Between being blocked out by trees and/or hitting from kikuyu rough seems like a real thing. Tiger was long in the day, but not particularly straight, and perhaps he wasn't afforded his miraculous recoveries as often there.
P.S. Perhaps its not just a coincidence Tiger only played the Colonial once in his career (1997) as well.
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Important to remember that while Tiger dominated the PGA Tour as a whole, he also was a horse at certain courses and scheduled very specifically for what made sense for him.
Of his 82 victories:
8 at Bay Hill
3 at La Costa (in ~8 appearances)
5 at Cog Hill
8 at Torrey Pines
8 at Firestone
4 at Doral
5 at Murifield Village
5 at ANGC
That's 46/82 victories at only 8 courses. Tiger didn't play at Riv between 2007 and 2017, still a very prolific stretch of his golfing dominance. He has 2 2nd place finishes, a 5th and a 7th.
From the lens that Tiger dominated at certain courses and was a mere mortal but still top 5 player at others, Riv might just fall into the latter category.
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Important to remember that while Tiger dominated the PGA Tour as a whole, he also was a horse at certain courses and scheduled very specifically for what made sense for him.
Of his 82 victories:
8 at Bay Hill
3 at La Costa (in ~8 appearances)
5 at Cog Hill
8 at Torrey Pines
8 at Firestone
4 at Doral
5 at Murifield Village
5 at ANGC
That's 46/82 victories at only 8 courses. Tiger didn't play at Riv between 2007 and 2017, still a very prolific stretch of his golfing dominance. He has 2 2nd place finishes, a 5th and a 7th.
From the lens that Tiger dominated at certain courses and was a mere mortal but still top 5 player at others, Riv might just fall into the latter category.
I mean, 9 years he didn't play there. Gotta figure if he plays there those 9 years he gets a couple wins?
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8 at Bay Hill
3 at La Costa (in ~8 appearances)
5 at Cog Hill
8 at Torrey Pines
8 at Firestone
4 at Doral
5 at Murifield Village
5 at ANGC
To take it one step further and analyze these courses, there are some trends but not all architectural.
Tiger clearly likes Bent greens. These are courses that reward length but also precision iron play - the ability to score with short irons and hit towering mid and long irons accurately at pretty much every course on the list is crucial to scoring well.
Tiger showed up for courses with historical significance, particularly related to the legends who came before him. Arnie's place, Jack's place, Hogan at Cog hill. And of course ANGC.
He also seemed to have liked Dick Wilson with his success at La Costa, Doral, and Bay Hill.
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Tiger was long in the day, but not particularly straight, and perhaps he wasn't afforded his miraculous recoveries as often there.
His wildness is over-rated. He was still gaining strokes off the tee, and unless you're hitting it REALLY far, that's tough to do if you're as wild as a lot of people seem to think he was.
That's 46/82 victories at only 8 courses. Tiger didn't play at Riv between 2007 and 2017, still a very prolific stretch of his golfing dominance. He has 2 2nd place finishes, a 5th and a 7th.
The problem with analysis like this is that…Tiger played a fairly limited schedule, and most PGA Tour events are at the same courses year in and year out. Tiger won 10 other majors that were played at different courses (2 at the Old, 2 at Medinah IIRC)… because he was just good, and those tournaments moved around to different courses. He can only play the courses that hosted tournaments, and once he found a schedule he liked, he won a lot of events. So it's a byproduct that he also won a lot of events… on the same courses.
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Is it part of the genius of Riviera's architecture that Tiger hasn't done that well there or is it just an anomaly?
As a reminder, Tiger came T2 in 1999. He lost in a playoff in 1998 but that event was held at Valencia CC which is a fine course but not really similar or comparable to Riviera. He was T5 in 2003 and T7 2004. Aside from that, he didn't have any really solid tournaments, and he's missed the cut a fair amount also.
Great question, and I think just an anomaly. It's not like Tiger didn't have the tools to win at Riviera (he has them all), so probably just a strange coinkydink.
I agree about it being an oddity. Similar to Woods only coming from behind to win but 1 Major in the final round. Not everything is a conspiracy or can be rationally explained. Shizzle happens.
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I agree about it being an oddity. Similar to Woods only coming from behind to win but 1 Major in the final round. Not everything is a conspiracy or can be rationally explained. Shizzle happens.
Tiger came from behind to win more than one major. He was trailing Rocco Mediate multiple times in the final round and the playoff. Hell, he was down one on the 18th hole twice in the last two rounds. That stat is lame because it's arbitrarily deciding that he's down only after 54 holes.
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I agree about it being an oddity. Similar to Woods only coming from behind to win but 1 Major in the final round. Not everything is a conspiracy or can be rationally explained. Shizzle happens.
Tiger came from behind to win more than one major. He was trailing Rocco Mediate multiple times in the final round and the playoff. Hell, he was down one on the 18th hole twice in the last two rounds. That stat is lame because it's arbitrarily deciding that he's down only after 54 holes.
Correct me if I'm wrong Erik, but I'm of the impression that Tiger only was able to win one Major when he was not leading after 54 holes. In Tiger's own words after winning his 15th Major: "I'm just proud of what I've done, to come back to win another major championship but also to do it in a different way," he said. "I've finally come from behind to win a major championship. I finally know I can do that. I had never done it; 14-1 is not a bad recored but I had never done it this way."
And if you still don't believe it, here's a link to a story that shows those times when he was close to coming from behind, yet was unable to get the win.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-championship-2018-tiger-woods-has-never-come-from-behind-to-win-a-major-but-when-has-he-come-closest (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-championship-2018-tiger-woods-has-never-come-from-behind-to-win-a-major-but-when-has-he-come-closest)
Does this detract from his record? Good God, no. He's incredible. But, like having never won at Riviera, it's just one of those weird occurrences that is futile in trying to figure out the reason(s).
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Tiger was long in the day, but not particularly straight, and perhaps he wasn't afforded his miraculous recoveries as often there.
His wildness is over-rated. He was still gaining strokes off the tee, and unless you're hitting it REALLY far, that's tough to do if you're as wild as a lot of people seem to think he was.
That's 46/82 victories at only 8 courses. Tiger didn't play at Riv between 2007 and 2017, still a very prolific stretch of his golfing dominance. He has 2 2nd place finishes, a 5th and a 7th.
The problem with analysis like this is that…Tiger played a fairly limited schedule, and most PGA Tour events are at the same courses year in and year out. Tiger won 10 other majors that were played at different courses (2 at the Old, 2 at Medinah IIRC)… because he was just good, and those tournaments moved around to different courses. He can only play the courses that hosted tournaments, and once he found a schedule he liked, he won a lot of events. So it's a byproduct that he also won a lot of events… on the same courses.
Yes I acknowledge that - you are clipping one small piece of my posts. I'm describing how we find the variance, your argument is rather self explanatory.
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I find this argument reminiscent of all the talk of Tiger not doing well on Maxwell courses prior to the 2007 PGA at Southern Hills. Many argued that because Tiger didn't win at Colonial and hadn't won at Southern Hills, he wouldn't win that tournament. Guess Maxwell's influence wasn't his kryptonite. It all boils down to the number of times he played the courses when he was in his prime. The odds were that he would eventually win, especially as the stature of the tournament rose.
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8 at Bay Hill
3 at La Costa (in ~8 appearances)
5 at Cog Hill
8 at Torrey Pines
8 at Firestone
4 at Doral
5 at Murifield Village
5 at ANGC
To take it one step further and analyze these courses, there are some trends but not all architectural.
Tiger clearly likes Bent greens. These are courses that reward length but also precision iron play - the ability to score with short irons and hit towering mid and long irons accurately at pretty much every course on the list is crucial to scoring well.
Tiger showed up for courses with historical significance, particularly related to the legends who came before him. Arnie's place, Jack's place, Hogan at Cog hill. And of course ANGC.
He also seemed to have liked Dick Wilson with his success at La Costa, Doral, and Bay Hill.
"Hogan at Cog hill"??? While there's a lot of golf history at Cog Hill, patronized by legendary golfers like Al Capone, I'm not certain that Mr. Hogan was known to have spent much time playing there. Dubsdread wasn't even built until 1964, long after Hogan's competitive career had ended. While I know that there were some tour-type events held in the neighborhood at nearby Gleneagles (now an under-construction housing development), I doubt very much that Tiger's presence at Cog Hill was at all related to the historical significance of Ben Hogan having played there -- probably more likely that the WGA's giving him multiple sponsor's exemptions while he was an amateur and the fact that the course clearly fit his eye...
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Important to remember that while Tiger dominated the PGA Tour as a whole, he also was a horse at certain courses and scheduled very specifically for what made sense for him.
Of his 82 victories:
8 at Bay Hill
3 at La Costa (in ~8 appearances)
5 at Cog Hill
8 at Torrey Pines
8 at Firestone
4 at Doral
5 at Murifield Village
5 at ANGC
That's 46/82 victories at only 8 courses. Tiger didn't play at Riv between 2007 and 2017, still a very prolific stretch of his golfing dominance. He has 2 2nd place finishes, a 5th and a 7th.
From the lens that Tiger dominated at certain courses and was a mere mortal but still top 5 player at others, Riv might just fall into the latter category.
Anyone know why Woods didn't play the L.A. Open in the 2007-2017 stretch? Seems a bit odd given that he claims he loves Riviera and grew up in Southern California.
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Important to remember that while Tiger dominated the PGA Tour as a whole, he also was a horse at certain courses and scheduled very specifically for what made sense for him.
Of his 82 victories:
8 at Bay Hill
3 at La Costa (in ~8 appearances)
5 at Cog Hill
8 at Torrey Pines
8 at Firestone
4 at Doral
5 at Murifield Village
5 at ANGC
That's 46/82 victories at only 8 courses. Tiger didn't play at Riv between 2007 and 2017, still a very prolific stretch of his golfing dominance. He has 2 2nd place finishes, a 5th and a 7th.
From the lens that Tiger dominated at certain courses and was a mere mortal but still top 5 player at others, Riv might just fall into the latter category.
Anyone know why Woods didn't play the L.A. Open in the 2007-2017 stretch? Seems a bit odd given that he claims he loves Riviera and grew up in Southern California.
My guess is because he rarely played two regular season event weeks in a row and usually played Pebble Beach, which preceded LA until last year. Total guess however.
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Important to remember that while Tiger dominated the PGA Tour as a whole, he also was a horse at certain courses and scheduled very specifically for what made sense for him.
Of his 82 victories:
8 at Bay Hill
3 at La Costa (in ~8 appearances)
5 at Cog Hill
8 at Torrey Pines
8 at Firestone
4 at Doral
5 at Murifield Village
5 at ANGC
That's 46/82 victories at only 8 courses. Tiger didn't play at Riv between 2007 and 2017, still a very prolific stretch of his golfing dominance. He has 2 2nd place finishes, a 5th and a 7th.
From the lens that Tiger dominated at certain courses and was a mere mortal but still top 5 player at others, Riv might just fall into the latter category.
Anyone know why Woods didn't play the L.A. Open in the 2007-2017 stretch? Seems a bit odd given that he claims he loves Riviera and grew up in Southern California.
I was there in the early 90's when he played as a teenager and followed his group. Although he didn't make the cut he had a large boisterous group of followers, many AA since he was one of the few AA golfers on the course. I would be willing to bet something was said or done to his group or family that ticked him off because he wasn't back too often after that and he may have held a grudge that he eventually got over to the point of actually hosting the event. 8)
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Correct me if I'm wrong Erik, but I'm of the impression that Tiger only was able to win one Major when he was not leading after 54 holes.
Re-read what I wrote, David.
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I would bet there is a significant financial reason behind this. Tiger's appearance fees, errrrrrrr, Buick sponsorship probably required him to play in San Diego. That event's proximity on the schedule to the LA event may have given him reason to skip the LA event, even if there weren't specific limitations in his contract with Buick about playing in events sponsored by competitors. I haven't reviewed the history of his event attendance, but I wonder how many events he played in that were sponsored by competitors of his endorsement contracts.
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It's odd that Jack never won at Riviera either