Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ben Hollerbach on January 24, 2023, 11:26:52 AM

Title: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 24, 2023, 11:26:52 AM
I'm surprised I have not seen any discussion on the conceptual playground course King-Collins designed to be built on the Pit site at Pinehurst. A 24 green, 140 acre site that could play as a different course 5 days in a row, or the ultimate playground for any parties who want to rent out the whole course for a day of play.

(https://beyondthecontour.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/IMG_F681CE4E534F-1-1024x803.jpeg)

Andy Johnson discussed the project on a recent episode of the Fried Egg podcast (https://open.spotify.com/episode/0qveG8AWhFg1WFFTHWGY1X) and in a recent article on the Fried Egg website (https://thefriedegg.com/rob-collins-pinehurst-golf-proposal/),  Rob went into more detail on his Instagram account (https://www.instagram.com/kingcollinsgolf) about the project and the routing.

I really like the idea of projects like this and the ability to pack a lot of golf into a little area. The idea of 5 courses occupying 140 acres is really intriguing when considering space and resource demand on the game today. It would be unlikely that someone would come into Pinehurst to stay for 5 days to play all 5 routing, especially with another 10 courses in the fold, but because they will soon have 10 courses, the addition of a project like this could present a wonderful addition to the property.


Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Eric LeFante on January 24, 2023, 02:03:03 PM
As cool as it seems I wonder if it's too ambitious and confusing. On the 3rd hole pictured above you have to play next to/over 3 unused greens to get to the 3rd green. I'm curious if they had to make some compromises to get to 5 different routings. If they only focused on two courses and could only have 18 greens would those two be better than the 5 proposed courses?
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Edward Glidewell on January 24, 2023, 02:27:05 PM
I think they'd be better off building an eleventh course in that location than something like this. They already have the Cradle and I think concepts like this generally aren't a great use of land at a busy resort. Isn't that why the Sheep Ranch was changed at Bandon?
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Charlie Goerges on January 24, 2023, 02:46:50 PM
Is there a reason that concepts like this don't get talked about more in the context of a local private club? As in the sort of place where someone actually could play often enough to get tired of a single layout?
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Tim Martin on January 24, 2023, 02:50:54 PM
This is another example of the way the game has spread its wings in the last thirty years. Short courses, reversible, himalayan style putting greens, expansive practice areas, courses with odd numbers of holes, 19th holes to settle bets, and walking only destinations are just some of the concepts that have been rolled out and subsequently embraced. It looks like a lot of fun!
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 24, 2023, 03:09:16 PM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Charlie Goerges on January 24, 2023, 03:18:11 PM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?




This gets at my question a little bit. Is a resort the best place for something like this or would a local club make more sense because almost all of the play is repeat play? It might be that the typical culture of a club wouldn't support it, but if that's the case, why?



Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Joe Hancock on January 24, 2023, 03:41:54 PM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Max Prokopy on January 24, 2023, 04:15:21 PM
While Pinehurst does have members, it does make more sense to try this concept at a truly private club.  The short game area at nearby Kinloch is an example of a few acres with multiple greens that could be routed (and re-routed) into something fun for the members. 
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Drew Harvie on January 24, 2023, 04:49:31 PM
Don't let Rob Collins see this thread :)
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 24, 2023, 06:03:40 PM
Joe,


Pinehurst isn’t a captive audience like Forest Dunes and the opportunity cost of the third best routing here involves courses that rhyme with -ine -eedles and -outhern -ines or -obacco -oad.


You can also make that decision in two days at Forest Dunes. Stay on property and play the other options, too.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Sean_A on January 24, 2023, 06:17:17 PM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Don Mahaffey on January 24, 2023, 07:22:11 PM
I’m confused by this situation.  It appears like King Collins is saying Pinehurst made the wrong call?  Does anyone else feel like it’s a bit of bad form for an architect to release and promote a plan for a project they didn’t win?  I guess Andy J found it newsworthy. I wonder if he’s talked to the Pinehurst group to try and learn why it wasn’t chosen? 
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 25, 2023, 05:28:25 AM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Tim Leahy on January 25, 2023, 05:52:20 AM
Sounds like Sheep Ranch Southwest before it became a real 18 hole course. 8)
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Jaeger Kovich on January 25, 2023, 07:09:37 AM
Couple things on the practical side nobody has mentioned.


1- I’d be taking a free drop 30% of the time cause my bad shots would on a different green. (Long rounds and can’t actually play the game)


2 - obviously there is a ton of extra maintenance involved. So there’s likely be guys mowing the other 72 greens pretty much till lunch every day. Most resort guests would love to pay 400$ to deal w that! Lol… this would require a massive maintenance staff and budget… they’d also be getting peppered by balls while trying to mow the rest of the place.


3 - cart paths would be impossible (big deal at pinehurst)


4 - 140 acres might work if it’s in someone’s yard… seems like you’d have better luck w this concept on a bigger property like 600 acres. I’d imagine a good amount of 90 holes on 140 acres just don’t work well and aren’t worth it either due to blindness or whatever else. It’s hilly in the sand hills, duh.


5 - if each extra green 4 x18 costs another 100k (they build usga style at pinehurst) that is an extra 7$ million you’d never get back plus the cost to maintain


The decision makers at Pinehurst are very smart. Good look them on course X
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 26, 2023, 02:20:58 PM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!
That implies that you have previously played the Thursday routing, while most likely also playing the Sunday to Wednesday routing as well.

For any given player to play all 5 routings would take them staying in the area for 5 days and playing a new routing each and every day, or spending enough time at Pinehurst over multiple trips to play each routing. In either case, unless you're a member, that seems somewhat unlikely in short order. Especially with 10 other resort courses, and dozens of other local options as well. So the time it would take for an individual, and then a collective bias, to form around rank and order of the 5 routings will take quite a bit of time.

I would not anticipate a facility like this at Pinehurst to be viewed as a marque venue, and play on it would be primarily in concert with those looking for more golf in a day. At the same time, the playground aspect of the property may make having a universal consensus of rankings among the routings moot. For most, they just won't care. To Pinehurst it would seem to fits more into the tiered structure of Thistle Due, Cradle, and Spoils.

That in itself may make it hard to justify the investment. With 9 courses today and the 10th coming soon, each additional golf opportunity at Pinehurst may end up being worth less than the previous, unless it is considered one of the best on the property or adds new value that is not being captured today. Thistle Due and the Cradle have done just that, but the value added by the Spoils may not be as high as the cost. At least in a traditional sense.


The idea of a venue like this being the centerpiece for a private establishment is interesting, but that has a much higher likelihood of having a hive-mind preference being formed around one preferred routing or inferior routing. As an additional feature at a resort property, especially with the potential for a group to rent the course as a choose your own adventure routing, the uniqueness and variety plays into their favor.

It's not surprising that Pinehurst has elected not to build the course, but I do appreciate they explored the concept as a potential new assets to their portfolio.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 26, 2023, 02:22:44 PM
Couple things on the practical side nobody has mentioned.
2 - obviously there is a ton of extra maintenance involved. So there’s likely be guys mowing the other 72 greens pretty much till lunch every day. Most resort guests would love to pay 400$ to deal w that! Lol… this would require a massive maintenance staff and budget… they’d also be getting peppered by balls while trying to mow the rest of the place.

5 - if each extra green 4 x18 costs another 100k (they build usga style at pinehurst) that is an extra 7$ million you’d never get back plus the cost to maintain
In total it's only 24 greens, not 90.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Richard Hetzel on January 26, 2023, 02:56:54 PM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!


HA!
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Tim Gallant on January 26, 2023, 04:21:29 PM
It's certainly an interesting concept, and if KC felt they weren't the front-runners, it makes sense to do something radical.


I'd be curious to know what the brief was. Often we analyse courses and concepts without knowing the full story. Was there something Pinehurst said/wrote that made this concept feel like it could be right?

Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Sean_A on January 26, 2023, 05:00:45 PM
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!

It is hard to believe that all five routings would be equally liked.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ira Fishman on January 26, 2023, 07:02:03 PM
I am confused. Did Pinehurst solicit King-Collins for a design or did they do it on their own for whatever reason?



Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Peter Sayegh on January 26, 2023, 07:30:14 PM
I am confused. Did Pinehurst solicit King-Collins for a design or did they do it on their own for whatever reason?
Ira, I had the same initial reaction.
The KC instagram referenced in the Fried Egg article read like they offered the idea unsolicited in late 2021.
Good for them for being proactive and looking for work (especially at PINEHURST!)...and introducing something novel.
However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.

P.S. I don't listen to podcasts so if that info/questioning was included, I apologize.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 26, 2023, 10:31:10 PM

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.

Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Sean_A on January 27, 2023, 03:49:38 AM

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.

I was thinking the same thing. And it wouldn't be smart to talk about private Pinehurst comments.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Peter Sayegh on January 27, 2023, 07:49:59 AM

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.

Tom, you misread my point.
I was just surprised Andy Johnson did not ask Rob Collins if Pinehurst replied to the KC proposal back in October 2021. That would have been my first question, even if the response was "no comment."

Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Peter Sayegh on January 27, 2023, 08:36:19 AM

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.
it wouldn't be smart to talk about private Pinehurst comments.

Ciao

Someone did.

This is the first time I've heard that Pinehurst "rejected" the KC proposal, past or present.
I guess I gotta upgrade my membership status.

Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: jeffwarne on January 27, 2023, 09:20:31 AM
Pinehurst clearly wasn't isn't ready for such a concept on such a large scale, and given their clientele and business model, another marquee 18 hole course, especially by the premier designer of our era,makese sense-for them..


I do find such a playground intriguing and feel it might well work on a slightly smaller scale(less greens /$$ to build).
I love the idea of cross country golf across a property,especially if much of the rawness of the original property(if desireable) could be maintained simply and become/remain playable.
Maybe 12 greens forming different routings of 6 or 9 hole loops.
Might be a way to insure repeat play-especially if rerouted on consecutive days, or the same day in a shotgun format.
Double the revenue(at least) from the one time hit and runners
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 27, 2023, 09:24:09 AM
Actually I don’t have any inside information on whether Pinehurst rejected the proposal or just didn’t respond.  I was assuming that the designers must have been invited to make a proposal.  If they are spending their time just going around to potential clients who haven’t expressed an interest in them, that would seem to me to be a low-return strategy.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: JC Jones on January 27, 2023, 10:15:39 PM
I’m confused by this situation.  It appears like King Collins is saying Pinehurst made the wrong call?  Does anyone else feel like it’s a bit of bad form for an architect to release and promote a plan for a project they didn’t win?  I guess Andy J found it newsworthy. I wonder if he’s talked to the Pinehurst group to try and learn why it wasn’t chosen?


I think it is bad form.  If I were any of the major developers today I would not engage King Collins for a proposal as it appears they are just going to run a counter marketing program for their own, not chosen design over the choice of the client.  Seems short sighted.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Joe Hancock on January 28, 2023, 04:54:07 PM
So, now we’re in the business of criticizing motives(assumed, no less) vs. criticizing design? Got it.



Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Buck Wolter on January 29, 2023, 05:22:39 PM
I believe Andy asked Rob if there was anything new in GCA he wanted to do. It felt like this was before the announcement was made that Tom would be doing #10 (I remember wondering if this was for another course as Tom said he wasn't using that much of the Pit). It seemed like Rob had some trepidation about sharing but was kinda like 'screw it, this is cool' and explained it. I don't know him personally but that seems to be his MO.

As far as sharing after the plans after, I don't get the big deal  -- I think its more of a risk to King/Collins IP than it reflecting badly on Pinehurst.  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.

The whole discussion around Pinehurst cracks me up -- I remember when Tom Doak wasn't the 'safe' choice.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Peter Sayegh on January 29, 2023, 06:22:16 PM
I believe Andy asked Rob if there was anything new in GCA he wanted to do. It felt like this was before the announcement was made that Tom would be doing #10 (I remember wondering if this was for another course as Tom said he wasn't using that much of the Pit). It seemed like Rob had some trepidation about sharing but was kinda like 'screw it, this is cool' and explained it. I don't know him personally but that seems to be his MO.

As far as sharing after the plans after, I don't get the big deal  -- I think its more of a risk to King/Collins IP than it reflecting badly on Pinehurst.  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.

The whole discussion around Pinehurst cracks me up -- I remember when Tom Doak wasn't the 'safe' choice.
Buck, did you listen to the podcast episode?
Rob mentioned the Doak course during the interview.
Didn't sound like RC had any "trepidation" discussing the proposal beyond the first twenty seconds after the question was asked.

Hell, he even said it was an "absolute perfect thing for Pinehurst." And a little later (paraphrasing) [why wouldn't you do it?...five different merchandise opportunities].

I got the sense Rob loves Pinehurst and dreams of a King/Collins footprint there. I hope it happens for them.

Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Tim Martin on January 29, 2023, 07:29:03 PM
  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.


I don’t have any interest in the the how, why, or when the project was rolled out but I do think it’s a unique concept that the right client will go for in the future. Whether a private, public or resort model is the right vehicle is up for grabs but regardless of same I haven’t heard of a similar proposal. Finally this assumes that the post covid golf market continues to sizzle.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Daryl David on January 29, 2023, 07:41:12 PM
  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.


I don’t have any interest in the the how, why, or when the project was rolled out but I do think it’s a unique concept that the right client will go for in the future. Whether a private, public or resort model is the right vehicle is up for grabs but regardless of same I haven’t heard of a similar proposal. Finally this assumes that the post covid golf market continues to sizzle.


Agree. It’s just not the right concept for this client.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Buck Wolter on January 29, 2023, 08:13:08 PM
I believe Andy asked Rob if there was anything new in GCA he wanted to do. It felt like this was before the announcement was made that Tom would be doing #10 (I remember wondering if this was for another course as Tom said he wasn't using that much of the Pit). It seemed like Rob had some trepidation about sharing but was kinda like 'screw it, this is cool' and explained it. I don't know him personally but that seems to be his MO.

As far as sharing after the plans after, I don't get the big deal  -- I think its more of a risk to King/Collins IP than it reflecting badly on Pinehurst.  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.

The whole discussion around Pinehurst cracks me up -- I remember when Tom Doak wasn't the 'safe' choice.
Buck, did you listen to the podcast episode?
Rob mentioned the Doak course during the interview.
Didn't sound like RC had any "trepidation" discussing the proposal beyond the first twenty seconds after the question was asked.

Hell, he even said it was an "absolute perfect thing for Pinehurst." And a little later (paraphrasing) [why wouldn't you do it?...five different merchandise opportunities].

I got the sense Rob loves Pinehurst and dreams of a King/Collins footprint there. I hope it happens for them.


I did listen to it when it came out
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 30, 2023, 09:47:57 AM
  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.


I don’t have any interest in the the how, why, or when the project was rolled out but I do think it’s a unique concept that the right client will go for in the future. Whether a private, public or resort model is the right vehicle is up for grabs but regardless of same I haven’t heard of a similar proposal. Finally this assumes that the post covid golf market continues to sizzle.


Agree. It’s just not the right concept for this client.
While Tom has said for years, it is often the client who drives projects more towards traditional executions (i.e. 18 holes, Par 72, ~7,000 yard back tee box) I do think the future of golf should look toward more non-traditional executions of the game. I know King-Collins are not the only ones thinking about it in this way, but I do applaud them for discussing non-traditional course design in a more public setting. Hopefully the continuous introduction to concepts like this will encourage other owners to step out of the box and explore ideas like this more seriously.

It may be that this specific concept is/was not right for Pinehurst, but I could see a very similar concept being perfect for them. Maybe something a little smaller, closer to the original Sheep Ranch, that is accompanied by clusters of cabins and focused on groups renting the course to themselves for the whole day.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ira Fishman on January 30, 2023, 10:33:07 AM
How close is the Red Feather course to the Rawls course? :-)



Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 30, 2023, 10:45:00 AM
How close is the Red Feather course to the Rawls course? :-)
12 miles
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Sims on January 30, 2023, 11:56:05 AM
So, now we’re in the business of criticizing motives(assumed, no less) vs. criticizing design? Got it.


Well, why not? Any one of us golf architecture enthusiasts could dig for plans that didn’t come to fruition and I would guess, based on past experience, that we could get them. But I would argue that there is a reason that they aren’t in the public space.


I would be curious to know about NDA’s and potential jobs in the golf architecture world. I have no idea but I’d be surprised if the principle clients—individuals or entities—don’t require some sort of discretion from potential architects.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 30, 2023, 03:26:58 PM

I would be curious to know about NDA’s and potential jobs in the golf architecture world. I have no idea but I’d be surprised if the principle clients—individuals or entities—don’t require some sort of discretion from potential architects.


Occasionally - maybe once a year - I have someone ask me to sign an NDA about a project before they will tell me any of the details.  I've found I rarely wind up doing those jobs!


However, I would say the default position for my clients is that they don't want to talk about the project until the permits are in hand, for fear that a bunch of people might show up at a zoning meeting protesting growth, or golf as a rich man's sport, or whatever is a divisive issue in that jurisdiction.  And that works right alongside our general preference not to talk about a project until we are sure that we are doing it . . . because for sure some other architects will be all over the client with their own proposals if they find out about it at an early stage.


When you hear a lot about a project before it's really a project, it's usually because the developer is looking for investors.  And of course young architects are trying so hard to get people to talk about them, they frequently make the mistake of talking about something that never happens, or that they don't get to do when the project eventually finds its footing.  That was true for me at Erin Hills.  Or, remember Pacific Gailes?


By contrast, Pinehurst Resort didn't say anything to anyone until they had started clearing trees for the routing.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ira Fishman on January 30, 2023, 03:46:30 PM
I have not played any King Collins courses. I certainly want to get to Landmand though. Sweetens Cove opened nearly 10 years ago. Since then, despite all of the effective marketing, they seem to have landed (no pun intended) relatively few projects. Is that a function of the dominance of C&C, Doak, and Hanse (Ben Stephens, I already know your answer) or something else? I am not looking for the backstory on Tree Farm or Pinehurst (although my wager is that the resort did not seek them out).


Thanks.


Ira
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Brad Tufts on January 30, 2023, 04:16:30 PM
I'm not a player in this at all...but I listened to the podcast and got the impression that this concept was on different land adjacent to Tom/Angela's new course with the spoil piles.  I only listened once, but I had the thought while listening that it would be weird if he was commenting on the same land that he didn't get commissioned to build on.


I had the impression that there was theoretically space for X, Spoils, and even the C&C routing in this general location...but obviously a pipe dream that all three get built even someday.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 30, 2023, 04:19:33 PM
I have not played any King Collins courses. I certainly want to get to Landmand though. Sweetens Cove opened nearly 10 years ago. Since then, despite all of the effective marketing, they seem to have landed (no pun intended) relatively few projects. Is that a function of the dominance of C&C, Doak, and Hanse (Ben Stephens, I already know your answer) or something else? I am not looking for the backstory on Tree Farm or Pinehurst (although my wager is that the resort did not seek them out).


Thanks.


Ira
Sweetens Cove, Inness, Overton Park, Landmand, Red Feather, Palmetto Bluff.

That's 5 original courses either complete or in construction, and one about to begin construction in the last 10 years. For a 2 man shop, that seems to be a pretty good hit rate. Beyond the dominance of the big 3 you mentioned, how many other architects have more courses over the same time?
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ira Fishman on January 30, 2023, 04:55:14 PM
Ben,


Paul Rudovsky has posted projects around the world. My memory is that beyond the “Big 3”, there are several architects with more courses than King Collins. Plus I believe that three of their designs are nine holes (totally cool but a different category). But for the Pinehurst design, I would not have thought much about the question. But it did strike me as a bit odd that they would promote a design that seems to have no viability there. As noted, I hope to make it to Landmand—it looks really good.


Ira
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Sims on January 30, 2023, 05:21:08 PM

I would be curious to know about NDA’s and potential jobs in the golf architecture world. I have no idea but I’d be surprised if the principle clients—individuals or entities—don’t require some sort of discretion from potential architects.


By contrast, Pinehurst Resort didn't say anything to anyone until they had started clearing trees for the routing.


Tom,



Thanks for your answer. I have been around this community long enough to know that 1) we aren’t dealing with state secrets and 2) sometimes there is a reason people talk about things that didn’t happen beyond just academic interest. Which makes your last sentence above even more interesting.


Ira,


I’m not here to impugn anyone…other than Patrick Reed maybe.  :)  Kidding aside, The Spoils is an interesting and thought provoking idea without needing to attach it to Pinehurst. Just release the plan without a title or a name or an inference that this is what PH #10 could’ve been. Go on Andy’s show and talk it up! No need to connect it to the resort.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: JMEvensky on January 30, 2023, 05:33:55 PM



Sweetens Cove, Inness, Overton Park, Landmand, Red Feather, Palmetto Bluff.

That's 5 original courses either complete or in construction, and one about to begin construction in the last 10 years. For a 2 man shop, that seems to be a pretty good hit rate. Beyond the dominance of the big 3 you mentioned, how many other architects have more courses over the same time?






Overton Park is a 100+ years old municipal 9-holer in Memphis. They renovated it.
Title: Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 30, 2023, 07:17:20 PM



Sweetens Cove, Inness, Overton Park, Landmand, Red Feather, Palmetto Bluff.

That's 5 original courses either complete or in construction, and one about to begin construction in the last 10 years. For a 2 man shop, that seems to be a pretty good hit rate. Beyond the dominance of the big 3 you mentioned, how many other architects have more courses over the same time?






Overton Park is a 100+ years old municipal 9-holer in Memphis. They renovated it.
My mistake, I was under the impression it was complete ground up redesign.