Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tim Gallant on January 04, 2023, 10:29:33 AM
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Seemingly a well-known secret to many, here is the announcement from Pinehurst that Tom Doak will design Number 10:
https://www.pinehurst.com/news/tom-doak-to-design-pinehurst-resorts-10th-course/ (https://www.pinehurst.com/news/tom-doak-to-design-pinehurst-resorts-10th-course/)
This is a fantastic project, and happy to see Angela lead on a project. I did see it was slated for opening in late Spring 2024.
You thoughts?
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I believe the highly qualified LaBar Golf team will be leading the construction and will be breaking ground inside the next few months.
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I believe the highly qualified LaBar Golf team will be leading the construction and will be breaking ground inside the next few months.
We have already started clearing trees, and the intent is to have the golf course completed by September.
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This month apparently. They'd better get a wriggle on if it's going to be open by June 2024.
(Edited to add: see Tom's reply above!)
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Pleased to see that it is coming. Pinehurst truly needed another top course or 2 to complement what they already have. It remains to be seen if additional courses will take pressure off of #s 2 and or if it will just bring more golfers to Pinehurst.🤔
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Sounds awesome!
This doesn't look like the former Pit land...does PH still own that? I think I remember a C&C routing that was shared a while back that used some of that land.
I played the Pit maybe 15 years ago before it closed...I'm still not convinced whether that is a great piece of land with unique features, or if the features make it a really weird piece of land.
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This is wonderful news, and a boon to retail golfers. I have to imagine that among younger generations of golfers, one's first Pinehurst visit may come after already seeing some combination of Bandon, Cabot, Streamsong, or Sand Valley. That was the case for me, and though experiencing #2's greens was dazzling, the remaining course and lodging experience does not match what can be found elsewhere. A new Doak design certainly will recalibrate my own priorities for making a return trip! Congratulations too to Ms. Moser on being lead associate.
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Sounds awesome!
This doesn't look like the former Pit land...does PH still own that? I think I remember a C&C routing that was shared a while back that used some of that land.
I played the Pit maybe 15 years ago before it closed...I'm still not convinced whether that is a great piece of land with unique features, or if the features make it a really weird piece of land.
It is the Pit site.
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Quote from: Ira Fishman on December 19, 2022, 08:06:53 PM (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71562.msg1720065.html#msg1720065)<blockquote>Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 19, 2022, 07:49:20 PM (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71562.msg1720062.html#msg1720062)
It's funny that as a numbers guy, I've never thought about the evens vs the odds at Pinehurst.I agree with the recommendation of #3, but my real recommendation would be to wait for #10.
Is that a reveal or just numerology?
Ira
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I'll take any bet that PCC DOESN'T announce the opening/acquisition/construction plans of "#10"-and maybe more-that coincides with the '24 Open."
Any details on the exact location? I have a long stay up there next month.
Congratulations to Tom and his team. Best of luck.
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Splendid news. Well done Tom D and Angela M.
atb
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Yes, great news. Tom or Angela, any chance you can share a preview of the routing?
Thanks,
Ira
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Sounds awesome!
This doesn't look like the former Pit land...does PH still own that? I think I remember a C&C routing that was shared a while back that used some of that land.
I played the Pit maybe 15 years ago before it closed...I'm still not convinced whether that is a great piece of land with unique features, or if the features make it a really weird piece of land.
It is the Pit site.
In the short video that the Resort released, Tom described the land as being “undeveloped”. The short clip shows two of the smaller ponds that were on the property where 9 & 10 were to be built over 20 years ago. The clip also shows some of the corridors that were cleared out for 9 & 10 back then before the project was abandoned (Rees Jones & Jack Nicklaus courses). Looks like No. 10 may be located to the north (and possibly west) of the 2nd & 3rd holes of the old Pit course and to the south of the 10th & 11th holes of the Cardinal Course at CCNC.
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Cool, thanks for the confirm.
Totally going to include the island green (#12?) and the super mario bros-style mounds, right?
I kid...I didn't hate the Pit despite some truly weird holes.
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Tom,
Have you always wanted to be associated with PCC? Even as a youngster?
Thanks.
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It is the Pit site.
Well, kind of. Part of the property is where Rees Jones started a course 20 years ago, on land that his father had owned and sold to the Resort. And then part of it was the first few holes of The Pit . . . those were the more gentle, traditional holes, not the ones in the old quarry works, or down by the lake. They've got that land left over for Course #11, someday down the road.
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Yes, great news. Tom or Angela, any chance you can share a preview of the routing?
Thanks,
Ira
We have to leave that up to the clients now, to do whenever they are ready. I suspect they've already set a date for the next two or three press releases.
I'm currently in trouble with one client for saying a little more in my Christmas letter than he wanted me to say. Did they not read up on how hard to control I am? /s
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Tom,
Have you always wanted to be associated with PCC? Even as a youngster?
Thanks.
No, because I really never thought I would have a chance.
I remember taking one of my associates to Pinehurst many years ago, for his first visit there. After we played, we went in to visit with Mr. Padgett [Don Sr.], and he told us that they were starting to plan their next two courses, and they were going to go with the two biggest names in the business, Rees Jones and Jack Nicklaus. My associate remarked afterward that it was kind of depressing they wouldn't consider us, but I explained that in their position, they kind of had to go with the established name designers.
The funny part about that is that my associate was Gil Hanse, so we have really come full circle.
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“The site is topographically distinct and drastically different from anywhere in Pinehurst,” Doak says. “It’s bigger, bolder and more dramatic. There’s about 75 feet of elevation change, and we’ll work our way up to it around the mid-point of the layout. You’ll have expansive views from this apex over the rest of the course. It will be an unforgettable experience for golfers.”
It's Pinehurst on a site that's distinct, bigger, bolder and more dramatic from others in the area. No pressure there. :)
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[/color]I look forward to some unforgettable experiences playing it.
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Congratulations to Tom and Angela on an exiting project. Pinehurst / Southern Pines has become even more of a golf-mecca than it was before, which is saying something.
As exciting as it is to see a new course, I wish they would put a little TLC into some of their older classic courses in particular #1. #1 sits on a really nice property and could be a lovely heathland style throwback, but perhaps that's not press release worthy.
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Congratulations, Tom and Angela! This is really great news. I never made it to The Pit but always heard it was a cool piece of land--I'm sure with your team's imagination and know-how it'll emerge as something special.
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A huge congrats, especially to Angela, who has put it her time to get this chance! I’ve worked with her, and she’ll do a great job.
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Tom,
Have you always wanted to be associated with PCC? Even as a youngster?
Thanks.
No, because I really never thought I would have a chance.
I remember taking one of my associates to Pinehurst many years ago, for his first visit there. After we played, we went in to visit with Mr. Padgett [Don Sr.], and he told us that they were starting to plan their next two courses, and they were going to go with the two biggest names in the business, Rees Jones and Jack Nicklaus. My associate remarked afterward that it was kind of depressing they wouldn't consider us, but I explained that in their position, they kind of had to go with the established name designers.
The funny part about that is that my associate was Gil Hanse, so we have really come full circle.
Great story. Thanks Tom.
Did you and Gil chuckle over that after he did PH#4?
Congratulations and good luck to Angela Moser. I assume PH #14 is hers ;) .
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As exciting as it is to see a new course, I wish they would put a little TLC into some of their older classic courses in particular #1. #1 sits on a really nice property and could be a lovely heathland style throwback, but perhaps that's not press release worthy.
PC, I hope we continue to agree to disagree on PCC #1. It's enjoyable as is.
If you wanna propose some tinkering to PCC #5, I'm all in.
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Echo Joe H, super thrilled for Angela. She's earned it all in a "man's" industry. Talent and hard work does pay off!
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Another well wisher chiming in.
What an exciting project! I was thrilled to see the good news this morning. Congratulations to Tom, Angela and Renaissance Golf.
Happy New Year!
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So I have to delay a return to the Highlands until Tom completes his work there, I have to delay visiting Wisconsin until Tom completes his work there, I have to delay NZ until Tom completes work there and now delay Pinehurst? Can you calm down Tom?
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Congrats to PH, Tom and Angela. Marion Hollins would be incredibly proud of Angela!!!
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An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective (https://firepitcollective.com/pinehurst-hits-the-jackpot-again/)
I wonder if they are going to fashion the Aberdeen properties as a premier resort within a resort. The trend of tiered exclusivity seems to be a business model that is something I'm noticing more of in luxury travel world. Pinehurst already has it within their membership model with #7/9 signature membership.
Also is there another design firm that identifies their lead associates like Tom does? I feel like most press releases just list the name architect.
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An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective (https://firepitcollective.com/pinehurst-hits-the-jackpot-again/)
Joe--The pics in this article are fabulous. The northern edge of the course is exactly where Rees Jones was clearing fairway for what would have been #9 (if it had been completed and so named) back in 2000...before 9/11 caused the Resort to slam on the breaks. I know that area fairly well as the front door to our house is less than 400 yards north of what should be the edge of the Resort's property (along the boundary fence with CCNC). Have seen the land from the CCNC side of the fence but never walked it (at least not yet) ;D . Now listed on FESCUE!
Paul
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An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective (https://firepitcollective.com/pinehurst-hits-the-jackpot-again/)
I wonder if they are going to fashion the Aberdeen properties as a premier resort within a resort. The trend of tiered exclusivity seems to be a business model that is something I'm noticing more of in luxury travel world. Pinehurst already has it within their membership model with #7/9 signature membership.
Also is there another design firm that identifies their lead associates like Tom does? I feel like most press releases just list the name architect.
Joe,
I don’t know about press releases, but Tom has often recognized his associates in public, e.g., during his remarks at his annual Renaissance Cup. This past event at St. Patrick’s in Donegal, Ireland was a good example. Angela worked on that project (which is absolutely magnificent), while Eric Iverson was the lead….if I remember correctly.
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An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective (https://firepitcollective.com/pinehurst-hits-the-jackpot-again/)
Joe--The pics in this article are fabulous. The northern edge of the course is exactly where Rees Jones was clearing fairway for what would have been #9 (if it had been completed and so named) back in 2000...before 9/11 caused the Resort to slam on the breaks. I know that area fairly well as the front door to our house is less than 400 yards north of what should be the edge of the Resort's property (along the boundary fence with CCNC). Have seen the land from the CCNC side of the fence but never walked it (at least not yet) ;D . Now listed on FESCUE!
Paul
Paul,
My first trip to Pinehurst years ago was with my Dad. I will have to make the next visit meeting up with you!
Hope you are well.
Tim
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Congrats to PH, Tom and Angela. Marion Hollins would be incredibly proud of Angela!!!
Congrats to Angela as well, great to hear.
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7/9 signature membership...I guess to each his/her own, but this seems like the opposite of how I picture "Pinehurst" golf-wise. I suppose they probably get some priority or discounts on the other courses too. This seems like living in St. Andrews and playing most of your golf at the Dukes course.
And I like #9 for what it is, although it's been 15 years+ since I've seen it.
I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw. I think old not new.
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I first visited Pinehurst in the late 80's during a golf trip I planned with some friends. After playing all around town that week and on a couple of subsequent trips, I determined that Pinehurst was actually pretty weak in terms of their lineup. Other than No. 2 and Pine Needles and Midpines, they didn't really have another course worth going out of one's way to play.
Fast forward 35 years and now this area can boast:
Pinehurst No. 2
Pinehurst No. 4
Midpines
Pine Needles
Southern Pines (all 3 of those courses thoughtfully restored)
Dormie Club
Tobacco Road
Doak's new one
That's 8 pretty solid choices within one resort area! Thank you 35 years of progress!
TS
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I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw. I think old not new.
Me, too. They've been selling all of that tradition very hard for the last 30 / 50 / 120 years. But I think they feel like they're getting passed over by the younger generation who think Bandon and Streamsong and all of those places are so cool, and they need to do something a bit more 21st century to get back on top.
I have been trying to draw out of them a little more about what sort of product they really want, but they haven't had an easy time trying to define it.
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I first visited Pinehurst in the late 80's during a golf trip I planned with some friends. After playing all around town that week and on a couple of subsequent trips, I determined that Pinehurst was actually pretty weak in terms of their lineup. Other than No. 2 and Pine Needles and Midpines, they didn't really have another course worth going out of one's way to play.
Fast forward 35 years and now this area can boast:
Pinehurst No. 2
Pinehurst No. 4
Midpines
Pine Needles
Southern Pines (all 3 of those courses thoughtfully restored)
Dormie Club
Tobacco Road
Doak's new one
That's 8 pretty solid choices within one resort area! Thank you 35 years of progress!
TS
Include North and South at Forest Creek (they're good) and it's a solid top ten.
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My first thought about the new course would be how the look and feel of this course will differentiate itself from the other resort courses and the courses in the region.
Look forward to it.
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I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw. I think old not new.
Me, too. They've been selling all of that tradition very hard for the last 30 / 50 / 120 years. But I think they feel like they're getting passed over by the younger generation who think Bandon and Streamsong and all of those places are so cool, and they need to do something a bit more 21st century to get back on top.
I have been trying to draw out of them a little more about what sort of product they really want, but they haven't had an easy time trying to define it.
The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in. But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.
Also, for what it's worth, you're getting some people that build a trip to Southern Pines around all of the other courses that they can play and only spend one night at the Resort so they can play #2 on the day they check in and #4 on the day they check out (or vice versa). All of the other courses are not a draw on their own, and I bet they want to change that.
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7/9 signature membership...I guess to each his/her own, but this seems like the opposite of how I picture "Pinehurst" golf-wise. I suppose they probably get some priority or discounts on the other courses too. This seems like living in St. Andrews and playing most of your golf at the Dukes course.
And I like #9 for what it is, although it's been 15 years+ since I've seen it.
I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw. I think old not new.
7&9 Membership includes all 9 courses.
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The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in. But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.
I don't think that is true. Part of the draw of Pinehurst is the buzz created by resort guests and their excitement in being in Pinehurst and the resort. I have yet to meet a member who joined thinking they'd have the place to themselves. Nearly every member of PCC is from somewhere else...why would they want everything to stay the same? While the addition of #10 will make it easier to get on #'s 4 & 8, the current membership is excited by the fact that another course is coming to Pinehurst and hoping that they will be able to play it when it opens.
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The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in. But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.
I don't think that is true. Part of the draw of Pinehurst is the buzz created by resort guests and their excitement in being in Pinehurst and the resort. I have yet to meet a member who joined thinking they'd have the place to themselves. Nearly every member of PCC is from somewhere else...why would they want everything to stay the same? While the addition of #10 will make it easier to get on #'s 4 & 8, the current membership is excited by the fact that another course is coming to Pinehurst and hoping that they will be able to play it when it opens.
My buddy who is a PCC member was texting me non stop yesterday about this - he's pumped for the project.
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I think the view that Pinehurst isn't "cool" has almost nothing to do with the courses and everything to do with vibe/rules they have at the resort. I was there with a group on a package in 2019 and it was an awesome experience, except they made us wear pants to dinner every night. Some guys didn't bring any and were wearing rain pants at the table. It felt very old money and stuffy.
All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst. I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.
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The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in. But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.
I don't think that is true. Part of the draw of Pinehurst is the buzz created by resort guests and their excitement in being in Pinehurst and the resort. I have yet to meet a member who joined thinking they'd have the place to themselves. Nearly every member of PCC is from somewhere else...why would they want everything to stay the same? While the addition of #10 will make it easier to get on #'s 4 & 8, the current membership is excited by the fact that another course is coming to Pinehurst and hoping that they will be able to play it when it opens.
I'm sure there are members that are excited about the new project. I'm also sure that there are members that want it to be quieter and not have a 3-4 day Barstool event come in there, for example.
I understand why it happens, but the point remains that the membership component makes Pinehurst unique as compared to the Dream Golf Resorts. All you have to do to see that contrast is go into the clubhouse behind the 18th green on #2 and see the difference between the "members" area and the area for the general public.
Also, I bet the membership is going to be happy another course comes in and their dues don't go up by that much as the cost of the new course is pretty much subsidized by the resort guests.
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I'm currently in trouble with one client for saying a little more in my Christmas letter than he wanted me to say. Did they not read up on how hard to control I am? /s
I consider you "good trouble"!
Cheers
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I think the view that Pinehurst isn't "cool" has almost nothing to do with the courses and everything to do with vibe/rules they have at the resort. I was there with a group on a package in 2019 and it was an awesome experience, except they made us wear pants to dinner every night. Some guys didn't bring any and were wearing rain pants at the table. It felt very old money and stuffy.
All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst. I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.
Agree and disagree.
As others have noted, the depth of the quality of the golf at PH does not match Bandon or probably Streamsong. A Doak course on good land undoubtedly will make PH more attractive for hard core golfers.
But I agree that vibe for the audience matters. Bandon and Streamsong know their audiences. They do not even pretend to want to be couples let alone family places. Pinehurst has traditionally (word choice intentional) had a different audience and therefore brand. Changing both is not easy if that is what they plan on trying.
Of course, the place that I think may get it best is MP/PN. Shabby chic and pure golf.
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In terms of elevation change and wooded areas, the site seems similar to Dormie.
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I think the view that Pinehurst isn't "cool" has almost nothing to do with the courses and everything to do with vibe/rules they have at the resort. I was there with a group on a package in 2019 and it was an awesome experience, except they made us wear pants to dinner every night. Some guys didn't bring any and were wearing rain pants at the table. It felt very old money and stuffy.
All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst. I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.
Agree and disagree.
As others have noted, the depth of the quality of the golf at PH does not match Bandon or probably Streamsong. A Doak course on good land undoubtedly will make PH more attractive for hard core golfers.
But I agree that vibe for the audience matters. Bandon and Streamsong know their audiences. They do not even pretend to want to be couples let alone family places. Pinehurst has traditionally (word choice intentional) had a different audience and therefore brand. Changing both is not easy if that is what they plan on trying.
Of course, the place that I think may get it best is MP/PN. Shabby chic and pure golf.
I think that's fair, Ira. While PH #2 is my favorite course that I've played in the US, I agree that the sum of the courses at the resort does not equal Bandon, so a new course by Doak will likely close the gap.
I have no idea if they want to change or should change their vibe. All I can say is it's definitely not as comfortable for a guys trip.
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Joe,
PH2 is my second favorite US course, and we will go back again despite the cost. But I am not a fan of PH4 or PH8 so the Doak course will make the two night minimum to play No 2 tolerably expensive.
As to vibe, even as an older couple, Pinehurst can seem a bit stuffy to us which besides the golf is why MP/PN is our annual hangout. One of the things that we admire about Bandon in addition to the golf is that even though it might be the ultimate guys trip destination, my wife has always felt comfortable and welcome even though her bar tab is pretty modest. Other than the golf, she did not particularly care for Streamsong—did not feel authentic even as a guys trip destination.
Ira
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All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst. I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.
It's possible that the new site will become the more casual setting.
To me, the difference between Barnbougle / Bandon / Sand Hills, and Pinehurst / Streamsong goes back to the ownership. Solo clients tend to make just enough rules that they personally are comfortable. Corporations believe they have to make sure that all of the other guests are comfortable. They don't seem to understand that the same rules can be a turn-off to others.
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I go to PH every August with 23 others guys and we treat the place as our own, that is we’re respectable outwards but Animal House inside the group. We stay at the Resort most years and play at least one resort course, often all three rounds but sometimes venture out to the best of the rest (aside from #2). Putterboy and The Cradle are now staples. So, not stuffy from our POV…BUT…we never eat dinner at the resort, rather wearing shorts at Pinecrest, the new PH Brewery or one of the village locals.
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One thing I do have to say about this assignment, is that I can't believe how much attention my new clients generate with a press release. I've heard from people I haven't heard from in 10 or 20 years!
I've also never received so many congratulations for not having done a damned thing yet. I don't know why people think getting the job is an accomplishment -- I really didn't even compete for it, that I know of. The good stuff is just getting started. But it's nice to know there are a lot of people rooting for us.
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I go to PH every August with 23 others guys and we treat the place as our own, that is we’re respectable outwards but Animal House inside the group. We stay at the Resort most years and play at least one resort course, often all three rounds but sometimes venture out to the best of the rest (aside from #2). Putterboy and The Cradle are now staples. So, not stuffy from our POV…BUT…we never eat dinner at the resort, rather wearing shorts at Pinecrest, the new PH Brewery or one of the village locals.
Agree. I can't imagine staying at the resort without women involved. Would much prefer other places to stay. The atmosphere is fine in the Pinehurst clubhouse. You can make what you want from these trips. I don't worry about a vibe or whatever.
Ciao
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One thing I do have to say about this assignment, is that I can't believe how much attention my new clients generate with a press release. I've heard from people I haven't heard from in 10 or 20 years!
I've also never received so many congratulations for not having done a damned thing yet. I don't know why people think getting the job is an accomplishment -- I really didn't even compete for it, that I know of. The good stuff is just getting started. But it's nice to know there are a lot of people rooting for us.
Tom,Just realized I had not said congrats. Congratulations.
My gut tells me that where there is some overlap, the Pinehurst customer may be different customer from what you have at Bandon or Sand Valley. And that definitely is a positive for you. Sort of like getting more clicks on Instagram... Would it be safe to assume they will want golf cars on the course?
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My gut tells me that where there is some overlap, the Pinehurst customer may be different customer from what you have at Bandon or Sand Valley. And that definitely is a positive for you. Sort of like getting more clicks on Instagram... Would it be safe to assume they will want golf cars on the course?
Mike:
They are really wrestling with that; we discussed it again today.
They kind of want to say no carts, but as advertised, it's a relatively hilly ground, and it's hotter down there than it is here. And I think their members skew older than the average visitor to Bandon. So I find it hard to imagine they can operate year-round without some provision for carts. Maybe it will be more seasonal, like at Streamsong. We have a couple of months to figure it out.
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Tom,
Congrats and welcome to the Pinehurst public relations juggernaut. They are a resort and area well along the arc of a major transition, all immensely positive (save for any unknown utility vandal). It's exciting to think what this little corner of the country can do for American golf.
A question for you:
What credit should a golf construction company receive for their contribution to a new to-be-built course?
It seems to me that the quality of golf construction job matters significantly but is often rarely cited whatsoever. I imagine few are better than you to opine on the this, as well as the range of services they provide. I look forward to your reply.
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Great news for golfers, the expansion makes a lot of sense considering the USGA's presence and announcing the resort as an anchor site for the US Open. Also being able to play year round helps the economics. Synergies for staffing, bulk ordering supplies, equipment etc. further help make it a profitable venture on a spreadsheet I'm sure. After No. 2 we shall see which course becomes the favored one for their second round now.
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I'm sure there are members that are excited about the new project. I'm also sure that there are members that want it to be quieter and not have a 3-4 day Barstool event come in there, for example.
I understand why it happens, but the point remains that the membership component makes Pinehurst unique as compared to the Dream Golf Resorts. All you have to do to see that contrast is go into the clubhouse behind the 18th green on #2 and see the difference between the "members" area and the area for the general public.
Also, I bet the membership is going to be happy another course comes in and their dues don't go up by that much as the cost of the new course is pretty much subsidized by the resort guests.
You can't be happy about subsidized golf and dislike groups like Barstool coming to your club.
Amol, can you be more specific about what you see as the difference between the members area and the area for the general public? I walk through both areas nearly every day and I don't feel that the vibe is any different. In fact, many of the folks in the members area are guests of members (some even wearing shorts) ;)
In years past, when my wife and I stayed at the resort, we didn't notice which side of the building was which, we were too busy having a good time. I would suspect that is the case for the majority of resort guests. It feels like you may have had a bad experience there to have such a low opinion of membership's affect on golf at Pinehurst?
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A question for you:
What credit should a golf construction company receive for their contribution to a new to-be-built course?
It seems to me that the quality of golf construction job matters significantly but is often rarely cited whatsoever. I imagine few are better than you to opine on the this, as well as the range of services they provide. I look forward to your reply.
Steve:
Most architects rely on contractors a great deal -- as Mike Young says, sometimes the contractor is driving the bus. If you don't have your own shapers to work with, you are relying on the contractor to provide good people. Also, in my early years I saw a couple of contractors who were just downright shady. If you're going to rely on a contractor, who you get is very important to the quality of the outcome.
My upbringing with Mr. Dye made me generally wary of contractors. Pete felt it was important to put in as much time as necessary to get the product that he wanted on the ground, and a contractor, inherently, was looking to be more efficient than that, to maximize their profit. [I never think about that at all; our motivation to go fast is so we can all get home to our families.] Long Cove had a local earthmoving contractor, an irrigation contractor, and a dozen kids on the crew. Bobby Weed was the oldest guy, running the job at 26.
Pete's focus was on getting good PEOPLE out on site to help him build the course. That's not to say he never worked with contractors, but he didn't want to rely on contractors. He didn't want to rely on anyone but himself.
One of the benefits of minimalism is that the less work you do, the less you need a general contractor to oversee it all. On projects like High Pointe and Barnbougle and The Loop, the only contractor involved was an irrigation contractor . . . we staffed the rest of the project with associates, interns, and locals. And they turned out great, though maybe not as "polished" as a big contractor would do it.
The first job I did with a real golf course contractor was Lost Dunes [which was my 8th or 9th course]. The client was more comfortable with a contractor that would provide a fixed price, and I was spread thin with two other jobs going, so I didn't fight it. Landscapes Unlimited won the bid. I told the client there might be a point where we needed to put our foot down with them, and sure enough, halfway through the project, they wanted to pull out their lead shaper who I'd really clicked with, and move him to another job; we had to tell them if Jerame went, they could go with him. He stayed, they finished the job, and it turned out great. I was told later by the construction foreman on the job that it was the cheapest 18-hole course they built that year [$2.3 million contract], and also the most profitable in terms of percentage.
We work with golf course contractors more often than not these days -- anytime the project is not on sand, or where there's a bunch of clearing and earthmoving involved. Lost Dunes was the only time we did it without my own associates doing the shaping.
Nowadays, my associates do a lot of consulting and restoration work on their own, and they usually have a contractor helping them -- LaBar and Allan MacCurrach, among others. They provide everything but the shaping, they're very reliable, and they do quality finish work so that my associates don't have to spend so much time there.
Pinehurst has worked with LaBar on a couple of past projects, and they came on board on very short notice to build this course very quickly. [It helps a great deal that my associates are well known to work fast, so the contractor isn't afraid we are going to cause them delays.] Angela is also familiar with them, which is great because she'll have her hands full with her added responsibilities. I hope they are as good as everyone says, and they make the job run smoothly; and if they do, I'll be the first to tell you.
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Add me to the long list of congratulations. Great for Pinehurst and you will love LaBar. They are one of the best.
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I'm sure there are members that are excited about the new project. I'm also sure that there are members that want it to be quieter and not have a 3-4 day Barstool event come in there, for example.
I understand why it happens, but the point remains that the membership component makes Pinehurst unique as compared to the Dream Golf Resorts. All you have to do to see that contrast is go into the clubhouse behind the 18th green on #2 and see the difference between the "members" area and the area for the general public.
Also, I bet the membership is going to be happy another course comes in and their dues don't go up by that much as the cost of the new course is pretty much subsidized by the resort guests.
You can't be happy about subsidized golf and dislike groups like Barstool coming to your club.
Amol, can you be more specific about what you see as the difference between the members area and the area for the general public? I walk through both areas nearly every day and I don't feel that the vibe is any different. In fact, many of the folks in the members area are guests of members (some even wearing shorts) ;)
In years past, when my wife and I stayed at the resort, we didn't notice which side of the building was which, we were too busy having a good time. I would suspect that is the case for the majority of resort guests. It feels like you may have had a bad experience there to have such a low opinion of membership's affect on golf at Pinehurst?
Brock,
You have spent much more time there than I have. In my limited times there, seems like the resort side is always livelier, whereas the member side seems more subdued and older (probably goes hand in hand). It's just a weird juxtaposition, in my opinion. Others can see it a different way.
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Amol - I'm a PCC member. I love all of the activity from the resort guests. One of my favorite things to do is to join up with visitors and play #2 (especially) or #4 or #8 with them (far more often than not I can call in the morning of or the morning before and slot into a group with an opening). It's so much fun being part of their bucket list experience. Another pretty unique thing is sitting on the veranda overlooking the 18th green on #2 and watching players come up and finish out the hole. Sometimes the cheering can be heard all the way down to the 17th hole, and the folks on the member side are just as into it and just as loud as everyone in the "public" areas.
Are we on average a bit older than the resort's guests? Sure, but that's the nature of those on golf buddy trips, tournament participants, and others who tend to make up those who have traveled to Pinehurst vs a membership where many are retired and/or are otherwise are just enjoying the place on a routine basis. We're no older, less enthusiastic and energetic, or less tolerant of visitors than any other club membership. If anything, we're more open, welcoming, and happy to see you (and not just your credit cards) than most memberships.
I am so fortunate to be a PCC member. Walking along and watching the first ever Adaptive Open was one of the most impactful experiences I've ever had on a golf course. Forevermore changed my perspective when I miss a shot or am otherwise struggling on the course. Having the place overrun with kids and their families during the summer is one of the neatest things you'll ever see, literally hundreds of people swarming all over the putting green, Cradle, and practice area having the time of their lives. So what if we lose access to #2 and maybe a couple of others when there's the North South or other big event? I can always go over to one of the others and practice and play. I've been a member at other clubs and inevitably there were times that I couldn't get onto the one course that the club had. Here I still have lots of choices and almost the certainty that something will be available. And even the secondary courses are pretty solid and are always well maintained.
And yes, I do appreciate the resort-created "subsidized" golf. But I'm not really giving up anything for it and without the resort component there's no way we'd have all of the golf and other facilities. I play more rounds on #2 than on any other course -- this past April I played #2 six times. At any price what I have is still an amazing golf experience, and year by year the club experience is getting better and better as well. I appreciate your perspective about what you've experienced at Pinehurst, but I don't think that you really seeing or understanding all that we as members have here and are enjoying.
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(Forgot to bring it back to the title of the thread)
I'm totally excited about the new Doak course. At first it'll be devoted to the resort side of things. Maybe it takes off some of the pressure on primarily 4 and 8 but even if it doesn't but instead adds to the number of resort visitors as they add rooms, that's fine. As a practical matter, with the PR machine this place has and their ability to capitalize on these types of things, I can't imagine there not being a bunch more play assuming the economy holds up. I'll still get to play it every so often one way or another. And in time the 11th course and maybe some other golf will be added, perhaps the long-planned C&C course. And ownership will continue to pour a portion of their growing profits back into facilities that I'll get to enjoy. On a day-to-day basis, no matter how it all plays out, I'll still enjoy and appreciate having a wonderful collection of really good courses and I'll still be cheering on the guests as they come up to the 18th green and then play out on #2.
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Interesting to read above the opinions that Pinehurst is "stuffy." I've never had that impression in part because my early experience with Pinehurst was as a junior golfer, playing in a couple of tournaments hosted their over the years. The fact that the resort is so supportive of junior golf - kids play for free at any course other than No. 2 - not to mention competitive golf in general, is a crucial and underrated part of what makes the resort a leader within the game, IMO, as David's posts above point out.
The prohibition on shorts in The Carolina's dining room at dinner is a bit of a throwback, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to call that "stuffy," especially when it's far from the only dinner option on property. If you want casual evening dining, you have no shortage of places to go, either elsewhere at the resort (e.g. the brewery) or in the Village.
Congrats Tom and Angela on an exciting commission and opportunity.
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kids play for free at any course other than No. 2
[/size][/color]
[/size]Really? I didn't know that [which I wouldn't since my kids don't really play]. [/color]
[/size]I hope No. 10 is not so successful that they want to make an exception for it.[/color]
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Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.
BTW, I've never heard about kids playing for free on any of the courses other than the Cradle when accompanied by a paying adult. I recently completed a 100-hole hike for Kids on Course and learned a bunch about PCC's involvement in their program. PCC participates in Kids on Course and kids in the program can play #'s 1, 3, and 5 for $5 and that through some donations bunch of that $5 is being taken care of.
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I obviously am not a designer, but I wonder if it will be difficult to design something that blends in with the ethos of the resort yet stands out as its own thing. #8 is an example of that.
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Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.
David: I don't know what's going on there. They did mention they aren't sure about naming it #10, but did not give a reason why.
A Doak eleven would be better than a Doak ten!
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I don’t have my CG handy, but what are the two DS10s in close proximity? NGLA and Shinnecock? PV and Merion?
Probably pretty difficult to top PH2 and PH10–no pressure:-).
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Tom: Indeed. Would love to hear your definition of what a Doak eleven was, and would be even more excited to see it on the ground down here!
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Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.
A Doak eleven would be better than a Doak ten!
Think you just named it.
Congrats to both you and Angela.
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Tom: Indeed. Would love to hear your definition of what a Doak eleven was, and would be even more excited to see it on the ground down here!
It's one better.
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Tom: Indeed. Would love to hear your definition of what a Doak eleven was, and would be even more excited to see it on the ground down here!
It's one better.
😎. I do recall thinking that if the old Pinehurst was a 10 then the renovated course must be higher because it was a vastly improved course.
Ciao
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This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.
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This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.
you don't say...
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This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.
No, that doesn't happen until there's a Course #11.
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This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.
No, that doesn't happen until there's a Course #11.
That's the C+C course beside TD's, no?
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Just bringing this back for the moment... The leadership at Pinehurst has yet not named the course, at least not publicly. In their announcement to the members and pretty much everything else I've seen they are referring to Tom's course as the tenth course at Pinehurst. I can't help but believe had anyone else been the named architect they'd have from the start named it Pinehurst #10. So either they are still really trying to figure out what's the best way to go with the name or they have something already planned. These people are really good at marketing and are attuned to all of the appropriate sensibilities, and I'm sure that they'll get it right.
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Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.
David, can you think of a good reason they would not call it #10? It's in keeping with their tradition and accentuates the depth of the resort.
Merch/logo-wise, #2 has Putter Boy. #4 has its prominent orange numeral. #3 it's triangular flag. The Cradle it's "sleepy" putter boy.
I assume the club will make sure the next addition is memorable despite its numeric moniker.
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10 is binary for 2.
;)
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Peter - The only thing I've heard is that that they didn't want there to be any confusion with the Doak scale. Calling it #10 when there's so few Doak 10's on the planet might be presumptuous. And more specifically, the only bit of detail I had around that was that Tom was being humble by raising this and instead suggested that the C&C course be called #10 while his was named Pinehurst #11. But you know how these ideas get started and bounced around - that's why I asked Tom directly here as he's always been so forthcoming with his responses on this forum. Maybe I shouldn't have and instead just let things play out as they will.
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If you want casual evening dining, you have no shortage of places to go, either elsewhere at the resort (e.g. the brewery) or in the Village.
This is a benefit for Pinehurst that Bandon and Streamsong lack -- while the courses at Pinehurst may not be as good overall (although it may pass Streamsong there when Doak's new course opens, especially if you're considering the the quality non-resort options like MP/SP/PN), the ability to go to the village for additional dining options and other things makes it more attractive if you don't want to be stuck in one place the entire time. Having the town there is really nice.
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"A variety of development opportunities will be evaluated with town officials, including additional golf, short course, clubhouse, guest cottages and other lodging."
I'm sure they will, I would think a complex of all sorts of additions will be in place by the end of this decade around #10. They would be missing out on the magnet if they don't.
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Jeff - Yes, lots of possibilities for the property and we've heard a number of potential development ideas. I just wouldn't be calling it #10. The letter from the club's GM to the membership referred to the course as the 10th course, and the major press release from the club never even mentioned this being the tenth course let alone calling it #10.
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Jeff - Yes, lots of possibilities for the property and we've heard a number of potential development ideas. I just wouldn't be calling it #10. The letter from the club's GM to the membership referred to the course as the 10th course, and the major press release from the club never even mentioned this being the tenth course let alone calling it #10.
The resort sorely needs upgraded accommodations for visitors. I'll bet (and hope) the property will offer more "communal" options, i.e., family/buddies cottages with a central kitchen/living room area.
As for the name? I hope they don't get cute with it.
It's #10. Nothing wrong with that. Again, in keeping with the tradition of the Club, it's perfect (pun intended).
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Congratulations Tom & Angela
Another reason to get back to Pinehurst again - one day (hopefully)! Also catching up to Mission Hills if include Cradle - 11 courses in total ...
Just curious - will be interested to understand Pinehurst course costings vs. other multiple resort golf locations
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Peter - The only thing I've heard is that that they didn't want there to be any confusion with the Doak scale. Calling it #10 when there's so few Doak 10's on the planet might be presumptuous.
For what it's worth, I never made this connection in the days since the announcement. It seems like it requires a couple of intellectual leaps and bounds in order to make it, and extrapolate something negative from it. While the Doak Scale is influential, I'm skeptical that guests or even the most beard-pulling of golf media would draw that line.
If anything, I wonder if going out of the way not to call it Pinehurst No. 10 would be the move that causes those outside our GCA-obsessed circle to raise an eyebrow. Pinehurst No. 10 has logic behind it from my perspective, and the fact that it's a brand-new course on a new complex of land that breaks the resort into the two-digit numbers only argues for that being the name. As for the merch drop, maybe a logo of Putterboy playing with a toy bulldozer...
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Bo Derek?
:)
Atb
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Peter - The only thing I've heard is that that they didn't want there to be any confusion with the Doak scale. Calling it #10 when there's so few Doak 10's on the planet might be presumptuous.
For what it's worth, I never made this connection in the days since the announcement. It seems like it requires a couple of intellectual leaps and bounds in order to make it, and extrapolate something negative from it. While the Doak Scale is influential, I'm skeptical that guests or even the most beard-pulling of golf media would draw that line.
If anything, I wonder if going out of the way not to call it Pinehurst No. 10 would be the move that causes those outside our GCA-obsessed circle to raise an eyebrow. Pinehurst No. 10 has logic behind it from my perspective, and the fact that it's a brand-new course on a new complex of land that breaks the resort into the two-digit numbers only argues for that being the name. As for the merch drop, maybe a logo of Putterboy playing with a toy bulldozer...
I agree that very few will make a connection to the Doak scale and even fewer would take issue with calling it #10 even if they were aware of the Doak Scale
Regarding the merch and name they could go all Superbowl and call it Pinehurst X and to attract a younger clientele update putterboy to be heftier like Dechambeau, wear cargo shorts, a backwards hat and untucked shirt ;D
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Well done Tom & Angela.
I think most archies would like the name Pinehurst X because its easy to remember and the number is satisfying...almost like a resolution. Other than 2, I can't remember the other course archies. I generally find the numbering system for so many courses to be unhelpful. That said, I am not sure names would be better. In either case, I admit that beyond the greenfee, many of the courses at Pinehurst never attracted partly because it just seems like a like a huge mish mash of courses. I never read enough positive stuff about most of the courses to bother figuring out all the numbers. But now that numbers are in play, it would be crazy to leave out the most satisfying and easy to remember number since 2.
Ciao
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Well done Tom & Angela.
I think most archies would like the name Pinehurst X because its easy to remember and the number is satisfying...almost like a resolution. Other than 2, I can't remember the other course archies. I generally find the numbering system for so many courses to be unhelpful. That said, I am not sure names would be better. In either case, I admit that beyond the greenfee, many of the courses at Pinehurst never attracted partly because it just seems like a like a huge mish mash of courses. I never read enough positive stuff about most of the courses to bother figuring out all the numbers. But now that numbers are in play, it would be crazy to leave out the most satisfying and easy to remember number since 2.
Ciao
I have only played 2 & 8.
- 1901 Donald Ross: Par 70, 6089 yards
- 1907 Donald Ross: Par 72, 7588 yards
- 1910 Donald Ross: Par 68, 5155 yards
- 1919 Donald Ross, 2018 Hanse: Par 72, 7227 yards
- 1961 Ellis Maples: Par 72, 6828 yards
- 1979 George/Tom Fazio: Par 72, 7053 yards
- 1986 Rees Jones: Par 72, 7216 yards
- 1996 Tom Fazio: Par 72, 7099 yards
- 1988 Jack Nicklaus: Par 72, 7118 yards
- Doak To be continued
Of course the Cradle and Thistle Dhu putting course.
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https://www.lyingfour.com/conversations-blog/2023/1/6/pinehursts-missed-opportunity
About 10,000 words too many in "Lying Four" (couldn't find author name)on why the author believes Doak was a safe/"uninspired" choice.
Somehow unexplainably brings Trump into the less than logical article.
There are no Doak courses at Pinehurst.
There are several mediocre courses at Pinehurst-certainly can't afford another one(see Castle Course ar St. Andrews)
Or another of Pinehurst higher numbered modern mostly avoided courses.
The article rightfully mentions Angela Moser. which should satisfy the author's want for a new name/creative ideas/hunger.
If Doak isn't hired you've lost the chance to see what Angela can do on this project.
Very hard to see how hiring the premier architect of his era and a fast emerging talent as his lead is an "uninspired choice" for a resort trying to put past poor choices in the rearview mirror and compete with upscale destination resorts with 3-5 outstanding courses.
Is it safe? Sure.
The same as I appreciate a jet landing safely every time it takes off.
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Ugh.....
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https://www.lyingfour.com/conversations-blog/2023/1/6/pinehursts-missed-opportunity (https://www.lyingfour.com/conversations-blog/2023/1/6/pinehursts-missed-opportunity)
About 10,000 words too many in "Lying Four" (couldn't find author name)on why the author believes Doak was a safe/"uninspired" choice.
Somehow unexplainably brings Trump into the less than logical article.
There are no Doak courses at Pinehurst.
There are several mediocre courses at Pinehurst-certainly can't afford another one(see Castle Course ar St. Andrews)
Or another of Pinehurst higher numbered modern mostly avoided courses.
The article rightfully mentions Angela Moser. which should satisfy the author's want for a new name/creative ideas/hunger.
If Doak isn't hired you've lost the chance to see what Angela can do on this project.
Very hard to see how hiring the premier architect of his era and a fast emerging talent as his lead is an "uninspired choice" for a resort trying to put past poor choices in the rearview mirror and compete with upscale destination resorts with 3-5 outstanding courses.
Is it safe? Sure.
The same as I appreciate a jet landing safely every time it takes off.
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Ugh.....
When that happens, just click modify, highlight the entire post and select 12 from the font size drop-down and click save.
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Jeff,
III Its some guy from Mississippi named Will Bardwell
https://www.lyingfour.com/about-1 (https://www.lyingfour.com/about-1)
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Jeff,
III Its some guy from Mississippi named Will Bardwell
https://www.lyingfour.com/about-1 (https://www.lyingfour.com/about-1)
Pretty sure I follow him on twitter
Can't get to 13k Followers without the occasional clickbait.
Funny thing is to some degree, I share his sentiment, thinking of all the talented architects who toiled in the weeds for so long in the golf build depression following the previous boom.
But questioning Doak and Pinehurst is silly-especially with the Moser component thrown in.
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Funny thing is to some degree, I share his sentiment, thinking of all the talented architects who toiled in the weeds for so long in the golf build depression following the previous boom.
But questioning Doak and Pinehurst is silly-especially with the Moser component thrown in.
The entire premise of the article rests on this sentence, which he saved for very late in his piece:
If claiming the mantle of American golf’s cradle means anything at all, though, it must mean an obligation to nurture the game by incubating new ideas and showing golfers things they’ve never seen before.
Really? They seem to be selling tradition more than innovation, to me.
I suspect the truth is more that for a place like Pinehurst, I'm a radical. And no one has any idea what we're going to build yet. We could do something pretty wild, if the client indicates that's what they want. So far, that's not the signal I'm getting.
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I love Pinehurst because it is so rooted in tradition and informed by its golf history. I am all in on their marketing as the "Home of American Golf", and their success speaks to the wisdom of "tradition" as their brand position. It's authentic and appealing to a large swath of golf travelers.
Innovation is great for the shower heads and cocktail recipes at The Deuce.
Like most here, I think TD and Angela will crush it, and the popularity of the resort will ramp up in response.
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Another life long resident extremely excited about this project!
Is it too early to ask about the grasses being used for playing areas? Greens?
Is zoysia in consideration?
Thanks!
Hart
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Another life long resident extremely excited about this project!
Is it too early to ask about the grasses being used for playing areas? Greens?
Is zoysia in consideration?
I don't even know what we are considering for grassing. Pinehurst has professionals for those decisions.
Is there a good reason to deviate from what they've used everywhere else?
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That’s interesting about the planning process. I have full faith in the PCC staff! My issue is I’m just trying to learn enough to understand what our board is trying to do to our course up here in Raleigh. We’ve enjoyed the best playing conditions in years and they think they can fix what ain’t broken.
There apparently is no zoysia on #4 and #8 after the renovations.
Can’t wait to see what y’all do down there! Thank you!
Hart
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Tom, I get the sense from this thread that your relationship to the client is different from your previous projects.
Do you feel PCC wanted Renaissance Golf Design or "Doak Pinehurst?"
The club's website boasts an opening concurrent with the '24 Open. Is that realistic?
Again, best wishes to you and your team.
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Tom, I get the sense from this thread that your relationship to the client is different from your previous projects.
Do you feel PCC wanted Renaissance Golf Design or "Doak Pinehurst?"
The club's website boasts an opening concurrent with the '24 Open. Is that realistic?
I'm always trying to understand what the client wants; that's harder when the client is an entity instead of an individual. [I sent them some questions a week ago and they are still working on them!] They also have seen fewer of my courses than my typical client has, so it's not as easy to ask what they like about my work. Everybody likes Pacific Dunes, but that isn't always relevant!
The second question, I don't get what you're driving at.
As to the third, yes, it's realistic. The plan is to have everything shaped and grassed by the end of this summer, and they are thinking about sodding fairways, which would speed up the grow-in process considerably. Of course, everything has to go right for all of that to happen, but I don't think it's unrealistic, and we are highly motivated because we have other places to be come fall.
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https://twitter.com/the_fried_egg/status/1617526200846684160?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet (https://twitter.com/the_fried_egg/status/1617526200846684160?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
A good analysis by AJ re Fried Egg about this proposal for the Pit (OCM are doing similar to Long Island GC in Melbourne with three (not five) different course variations
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Do you really think folks will confuse the "10" as a Doak rating and not a logical sequential number name? My sense is that the vast majority of visitors (and future players of 10) to Pinehurst have never heard of the Confidential Guide. Hell, quite a few have likely never heard of Doak! The "10" moniker and its potential double meaning would only resonate with us few gca whack jobs not the general playing public.
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Do you really think folks will confuse the "10" as a Doak rating and not a logical sequential number name? My sense is that the vast majority of visitors (and future players of 10) to Pinehurst have never heard of the Confidential Guide. Hell, quite a few have likely never heard of Doak! The "10" moniker and its potential double meaning would only resonate with us few gca whack jobs not the general playing public.
It’s not like I invented the meaning of “a 10” as “the best” and I don’t know that anyone is shying away from that, although, everyone in Pinehurst knows which course is the top dog and I don’t think anyone expects that to change.
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Do you really think folks will confuse the "10" as a Doak rating and not a logical sequential number name?
No, and it's shocking to me that this thought even arose.
I think Tom "awarded" an 11 one time in the past.
Have you seen the non-GCA forums? Pinehurst X seems the resounding favorite. May look great on merch, but I'd be surprised if PCC went that direction.
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Tom, I get the sense from this thread that your relationship to the client is different from your previous projects.
Do you feel PCC wanted Renaissance Golf Design or "Doak Pinehurst?"
The club's website boasts an opening concurrent with the '24 Open. Is that realistic?
I'm always trying to understand what the client wants; that's harder when the client is an entity instead of an individual. [I sent them some questions a week ago and they are still working on them!] They also have seen fewer of my courses than my typical client has, so it's not as easy to ask what they like about my work. Everybody likes Pacific Dunes, but that isn't always relevant!
The second question, I don't get what you're driving at.
As to the third, yes, it's realistic. The plan is to have everything shaped and grassed by the end of this summer, and they are thinking about sodding fairways, which would speed up the grow-in process considerably. Of course, everything has to go right for all of that to happen, but I don't think it's unrealistic, and we are highly motivated because we have other places to be come fall.
Tom,
Paul Rudovsky and I are planning to visit the site the week of March 20th. Can you say whether clearing will be completed and whether we will be able to get a sense of where holes will be?
Looking forward to seeing the property.
Thanks,
Tim
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I do like the marketing idea of going Roman numeral with Pinehurst X.
Congratulations to Tom and his team! The more Doak in reasonable driving distance to me the better.
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Just wanted to bump this and see if there is an update on how things are going.
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Just wanted to bump this and see if there is an update on how things are going.
So far, so good. I approved seven greens as shaped in mid February and those have been cored out and rebuilt with greens mix. Clearing is done for the next six holes, so that we can start shaping those, with the goal of having them finished on my visit at the end of March. But the pump station is not yet operational, so we don't have water to do any finish work yet.
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Thanks Tom, that is exciting! I went by the other day and there was a lot of activity going on. The weather has been good as well which certainly helps.
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I believe that C & C changed the irrigation on #2 during their work and I was wondering what type of irrigation will be used on #10? Did Hanse change the irrigation on #4 during his work?
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The Fried Egg has a nice video of Angela Moser describing the 17th hole.
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I showed around Tim Weiman and our neighbor Paul Rudovsky yesterday afternoon; I will let them weigh in on what they saw, if they wish. I'm in town for 6 more days and we hope to have 12-14 greens checked off by the time I leave. We are into the more dramatic parts of the property now . . .
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The Fried Egg has a nice video of Angela Moser describing the 17th hole.
Could you point the way, Ira? I didn't see it on the main page, the ClubTFE page, or the YouTube channel.
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The Fried Egg has a nice video of Angela Moser describing the 17th hole.
Could you point the way, Ira? I didn't see it on the main page, the ClubTFE page, or the YouTube channel.
It was in the Fried Egg newsletter. Maybe you need to try approaching it from a better angle.
Ira
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It was in the Fried Egg newsletter. Maybe you need to try approaching it from a better angle.
Thanks.
So, the link is here: https://twitter.com/pinehurstresort/status/1638889165755408384 (https://twitter.com/pinehurstresort/status/1638889165755408384)
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Half the responses to that tweet are "is there going to be a bridge?"
:-[
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Maybe X IS in play for the next course.
Bought a VI hat (never seen before) a couple weeks ago.
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I showed around Tim Weiman and our neighbor Paul Rudovsky yesterday afternoon; I will let them weigh in on what they saw, if they wish. I'm in town for 6 more days and we hope to have 12-14 greens checked off by the time I leave. We are into the more dramatic parts of the property now . . .
Tom,
Wish I caught this earlier. Obviously, I liked what I saw. A big plus is that it appears #10 will have its own character distinct from the other Pinehurst courses: big and bold but with a sense of intimacy due to the proximity of greens to the next hole tees and the recurring ability to stand on a tee and look back at play on the previous hole. That really appeals to me.
While the course looks like it will be challenging for better players, there seemed to be substantial width in landing areas, so there shouldn’t be too many balls hit into the woods.
No mention of #10 would be complete without mentioning the topography and elevation change throughout the course. I suspect thinking carefully about club selection is going to be a recurring theme throughout the course.
Finally, #17 is going to be a big hit IMO. There are lots of forced carry Par 3s in the world of golf, but this one just seems to have a unique character due to the green and view of all the water from the tee. Also, I think the excitement will build when putting on the #16 green.
FYI, I am planning to return in the back half of October and hopefully with Kevin Frost in the spring to convince him to do a painting of #17.
Congrats to you, Angela and the rest of your Renaissance team. Can’t imagine #10 won’t be a big winner.
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Greens to be sprigged next week. Her is a wonderful 2:40 min fly over:
https://youtu.be/cPNZzFQ8uMk (https://youtu.be/cPNZzFQ8uMk)
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I got a laugh how they swerved from the first hole to the third fairway! The second hole is still a work in progress.
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Tom,
Are you regularly sodding fairways from start to finish on your projects? Obviously it’s dollar dependent but is it grass type dependent too?
Ally
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Tom,
Are you regularly sodding fairways from start to finish on your projects? Obviously it’s dollar dependent but is it grass type dependent too?
No, we did it at Stone Eagle and some parts of St Patrick’s (robbing sod from other areas), but those are the only projects I can recall. Pinehurst just happens to have a big sod farm down the road, which makes it easier. It’s a hilly site, which helps justify the added cost, but it was entirely a client-led choice.
Courses using some other fairway grass types (particularly zoysia) do have to sod, but I’ve yet to build a project with zoysia fairways.
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Tom,
When you were planning the green complexes and shaping, was Ross and particularly Number 2 in the back of your mind?
Ira
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Tom,
When you were planning the green complexes and shaping, was Ross and particularly Number 2 in the back of your mind?
Ira
Ira,
When Tom gave Paul Rudovsky and I a tour it even included Tom giving Eric Iverson his thoughts for a green that hadn’t yet been designed, much less built. Listening to Tom I got the feeling what he expressed fit for that green site. I certainly don’t recall any reference to Ross on that hole or any other.
Tom obviously respects the Ross Pinehurst tradition, but in my opinion #10 will be #10 not #2. This applies to the property as well as the architecture.
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When you were planning the green complexes and shaping, was Ross and particularly Number 2 in the back of your mind?
Ira:
Yes, but more in the sense that we ought to do something different than Ross did, instead of copying him, considering that the area in general and the resort in particular has so many Donald Ross greens! It would be kind of silly to copy the greens of #2 on a course four miles away from it . . . just like I didn't want to build a Redan hole at Sebonack when the best one in the world was a couple hundred yards from our ninth tee.
One thought I had early on was that while Pinehurst has a lot of raised greens it doesn't have any that resemble punchbowls, even though the ground is sandy enough to make a low green work. So, I made a point of looking for a couple of green sites that sat down low in the terrain: the 5th and 6th sit in little bowls, the 9th is on a saddle, and the 3rd is a fallaway green at grade. We really have just tried to make the greens as varied as we can, and I think it's a really good mix of styles.
That's not to say we haven't gone and walked around Pinehurst #2 occasionally for inspiration . . . more in terms of the fairway widths and the bunkering than the greens, but our 13th and 18th greens borrow a little from course #2.
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I got a laugh how they swerved from the first hole to the third fairway! The second hole is still a work in progress.
Tom (or those who have walked it):
If I followed the video correctly, can you comment on the fourth hole?
It's sandy areas are jarring/striking from above.
Do I see a "pot" bunker, a "wok" bunker, and an Engh-like "scar" bunker in the same frame?
Just looked unique to me.
Thanks.
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Tom,
I like the punch bowl idea, they seem to always be fun whether you're going to a frat party or golfing.
P.S. Are there any downsides to sodding, other than the obvious of additional expense?
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Kalen,
My considerations (Tom’s may be more or different):
Using sod will get a course in to play quicker but once in play, I find it usually takes a little longer to provide a perfect playing surface. This is not really an issue on fairways but is definitely a consideration on greens.
It looks like Tom is seeding the greens. This will mean the team have had to work that little bit harder on the tie-ins between green and surrounds as even in sand, the topsoil can’t all be shaped smoothly as one (sod having a thickness to consider, seed having none).
Only other thing I would concern myself about is bringing “foreign” bought in sod onto a site is almost never as good as using local sod harvested from the same site / soil. Sounds like Tom doesn’t have that problem here…
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If I followed the video correctly, can you comment on the fourth hole?
It's sandy areas are jarring/striking from above.
Do I see a "pot" bunker, a "wok" bunker, and an Engh-like "scar" bunker in the same frame?
There are a variety of bunkers out there, this was one of the first holes shaped and we were still very much experimenting with a style. [I'm not sure we have settled on anything in particular!] I haven't tried to name them all, but I think the "scar" must be the bunker I added to the right of the green [which I expanded over there], and if so, that's the first time my work has been compared to Jim Engh's. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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TD Video on PH - X with article
https://www.homeofgolf.com/x-marksthe10spot/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=Golfweek&utm_campaign=May17Send (https://www.homeofgolf.com/x-marksthe10spot/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=Golfweek&utm_campaign=May17Send)
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At the 1:38 mark of the video Stewart posted, there is a large mound with a square plateau'ed top...flanked by smaller rounded mounds fronting a green complex.Wonder TD's inspiration for this and the length of the hole. Looks like fun.
The beauty/luxury of having an abundance of sand!
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Check out the recent (May 12) drone flyover video below from Zig Golf...
https://youtu.be/maz8qHz2M9g
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At the 1:38 mark of the video Stewart posted, there is a large mound with a square plateau'ed top...flanked by smaller rounded mounds fronting a green complex.Wonder TD's inspiration for this and the length of the hole. Looks like fun.
The beauty/luxury of having an abundance of sand!
The square thing was the 4th tee at The Pit, which is now short and left of the green on our 8th hole. We are still going to whittle away at that to give it a more natural shape, but it will make the approach blind from the left side of the fairway.
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Tom, can you talk about the eighth in detail here? I got directed to a few sites regarding the hole, including your Instagram (if not your official one, apologies).
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/
Why did "all the crew [lobby]" to keep it? Did YOU consider keeping it originally? Was it thought too radical or hindering early on to preserve/feature?
Do you have a feel as to how the hole will be played? Do you think the planned/planted iteration will last (I believe you mentioned its quirkiness in another thread)?
Do you have two adjectives to describe #10? Does Angela Moser have her own two adjectives?
Thanks, Peter.
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Tom, can you talk about the eighth in detail here? I got directed to a few sites regarding the hole, including your Instagram (if not your official one, apologies).
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/)
Why did "all the crew [lobby]" to keep it? Did YOU consider keeping it originally? Was it thought too radical or hindering early on to preserve/feature?
Do you have a feel as to how the hole will be played? Do you think the planned/planted iteration will last (I believe you mentioned its quirkiness in another thread)?
Do you have two adjectives to describe #10? Does Angela Moser have her own two adjectives?
Thanks, Peter.
Hi Peter:
I'd rather NOT talk about every detail of every hole of every course we are building, before they are open. Some of my clients are more hungry for the publicity than others, but I think it is fair to guess that a lot of people will get to Pinehursr in 2024 to form their own opinions, and I'd rather have their honest reactions than try to put words into their mouths!
I would not have built the hole if I didn't think it was going to remain. My initial skepticism was for just that reason: I thought the resort might be too conservative to let the mound stay. They had expressed the desire for the course to be cool, but they were wary of appearing that they were trying to mimic Tobacco Road, and they didn't really want something that wild.
However, when Bob Denman came out for his second site visit and I found him wandering around the 8th hole, he was genuinely excited about it and asked a lot of questions about how we were going to finish it and about the playability. And if Mr. Dedman likes it, then Pinehurst likes it. So the mound made the final cut.
At present, the visibility of the mound distracts attention from the WILD contours of the fairway, which I think will be the unique and possibly controversial feature of the 8th hole. As Adam testifies, it is definitely not like the other holes out there right now, although I believe that if and when they build a second 18 holes on that property, it will have been a good foreshadowing of what is to come.
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Tom: have you had a chance to see what Kyle Franz did at Southern Pines - I think it is brilliant.
Jerry
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[...] I believe that if and when they build a second 18 holes on that property, it will have been a good foreshadowing of what is to come.
Interest piqued.
Thanks for the reply.
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Tom,
What are the average size of the greens? as they look huge on the fly throughs - possibly to allow for contouring and pin positions?
Cheers
Ben
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What are the average size of the greens? as they look huge on the fly throughs - possibly to allow for contouring and pin positions?
They're a little bigger than normal -- maybe 7000 sf or 7500? The 3rd and 4th are very big. The smallest green on the course is the one I shaped myself, the long par-3 14th.
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What are the average size of the greens? as they look huge on the fly throughs - possibly to allow for contouring and pin positions?
They're a little bigger than normal -- maybe 7000 sf or 7500? The 3rd and 4th are very big. The smallest green on the course is the one I shaped myself, the long par-3 14th.
Whoa - that's quite big sounds like a course that putts are more important. Would this be similar at Cabot Highlands which has already started construction
For others on this site its a contrast with many English inland courses like Sunningdale which are around 4500 sf on average - more chipping I guess.
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Anyone have any status updates?
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After watching that video hole 4 gives me huge Pete Dye vibes with the trouble left, the green angled right tempting you to make a difficult pitch over a bunker. However, instead of bunkers, Dye would have had a mound left forcing an incorrectly placed drive to have a blind approach.
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Anyone have any status updates?
They sodded the last fairway last week, and have targeted an April 2024 opening. Angela is headed off on a vacation, and will be back in the fall to do some more detail work on the bunkers and native areas.
I haven’t seen it since June, but some of the crew have played the opening and closing holes a bunch of times. The report is that it plays quite long (for mortals).
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Pinehurst just announced a April 3, 2024 opening. Congrats to everyone involved!!
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Tom, can you talk about the eighth in detail here? I got directed to a few sites regarding the hole, including your Instagram (if not your official one, apologies).
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/)
Why did "all the crew [lobby]" to keep it? Did YOU consider keeping it originally? Was it thought too radical or hindering early on to preserve/feature?
Do you have a feel as to how the hole will be played? Do you think the planned/planted iteration will last (I believe you mentioned its quirkiness in another thread)?
Do you have two adjectives to describe #10? Does Angela Moser have her own two adjectives?
Thanks, Peter.
Hi Peter:
I'd rather NOT talk about every detail of every hole of every course we are building, before they are open. Some of my clients are more hungry for the publicity than others, but I think it is fair to guess that a lot of people will get to Pinehursr in 2024 to form their own opinions, and I'd rather have their honest reactions than try to put words into their mouths!
I would not have built the hole if I didn't think it was going to remain. My initial skepticism was for just that reason: I thought the resort might be too conservative to let the mound stay. They had expressed the desire for the course to be cool, but they were wary of appearing that they were trying to mimic Tobacco Road, and they didn't really want something that wild.
However, when Bob Denman came out for his second site visit and I found him wandering around the 8th hole, he was genuinely excited about it and asked a lot of questions about how we were going to finish it and about the playability. And if Mr. Dedman likes it, then Pinehurst likes it. So the mound made the final cut.
At present, the visibility of the mound distracts attention from the WILD contours of the fairway, which I think will be the unique and possibly controversial feature of the 8th hole. As Adam testifies, it is definitely not like the other holes out there right now, although I believe that if and when they build a second 18 holes on that property, it will have been a good foreshadowing of what is to come.
Tom,
Your assumption regarding the eighth may be spot on.
Seems the club has had preview days (just walking the course) for PCC caddies/pros recently.
None of them mentioned the terrain beyond the hill.
I was told the course will be "brutal" by more than two people. It surprised me. I don't recall that adjective connected to one of your designs or your philosophy.
Could you or Angela guess why it may perceived-erroneously or otherwise-that way (even though it hasn't been "played")?
For those who HAVE played it, please chime in.
Thanks, Peter.
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I was told the course will be "brutal" by more than two people. It surprised me. I don't recall that adjective connected to one of your designs or your philosophy.
Could you or Angela guess why it may perceived-erroneously or otherwise-that way (even though it hasn't been "played")?
Peter:
It's a pretty hard course, especially if you are thinking about shooting par [which is 70] instead of trying to break 80 or 90. It could play pretty long in the winter when the fairways are dormant, and the stretch from the 9th through the 14th or 15th is especially tough.
"Brutal" ? I don't know about brutal. More likely it's just not exactly what people expected.
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Tom,
When you graciously gave Paul Rudovsky and I a tour of the course, I never imagined anyone thinking it would be brutal to play.
Some hard shots? Of course.
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I never imagined anyone thinking it would be brutal to play.
Some hard shots? Of course.
Tim, please elaborate. Which ones stood out to you?
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I was told the course will be "brutal" by more than two people. It surprised me. I don't recall that adjective connected to one of your designs or your philosophy.
Could you or Angela guess why it may perceived-erroneously or otherwise-that way (even though it hasn't been "played")?
Peter:
It's a pretty hard course, especially if you are thinking about shooting par [which is 70] instead of trying to break 80 or 90. It could play pretty long in the winter when the fairways are dormant, and the stretch from the 9th through the 14th or 15th is especially tough.
"Brutal" ? I don't know about brutal. More likely it's just not exactly what people expected.
Thanks Tom.
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I never imagined anyone thinking it would be brutal to play.
Some hard shots? Of course.
Tim, please elaborate. Which ones stood out to you?
Peter,
Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.
That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.
One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.
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Peter,
Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.
That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.
One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.
Tim:
Why would you play the 17th from all the way back? There are tees from 180 yards all the way down to 100 or so. Not many resort guests would be playing it that far back.
By contrast, there are a couple of par-4's [9 and 13] that most people won't reach in two shots, even from the second or third set of tee markers. That will turn some people off. The tee shots are across big valleys so there just wasn't a good place to put an intermediate tee.
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Peter,
Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.
That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.
One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.
By contrast, there are a couple of par-4's [9 and 13] that most people won't reach in two shots, even from the second or third set of tee markers. That will turn some people off. The tee shots are across big valleys so there just wasn't a good place to put an intermediate tee.
There are plenty of examples of good/great par 4 holes that won’t be reached from the member tees by most players. A couple holes out of the full set that fit this description create variety and despite the difficulty are cherished pars.
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Peter,
Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.
That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.
One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.
Tim:
Why would you play the 17th from all the way back? There are tees from 180 yards all the way down to 100 or so. Not many resort guests would be playing it that far back.
By contrast, there are a couple of par-4's [9 and 13] that most people won't reach in two shots, even from the second or third set of tee markers. That will turn some people off. The tee shots are across big valleys so there just wasn't a good place to put an intermediate tee.
Tom,
I wouldn’t. I just miss the days when I could. The hole has a pretty epic feel to it, especially from the back.
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There are plenty of examples of good/great par 4 holes that won’t be reached from the member tees by most players. A couple holes out of the full set that fit this description create variety and despite the difficulty are cherished pars.
Tim:
Obviously, I agree, or I wouldn't still build holes like that. In fact I like them so much that I am prepared to listen to the gripes of players who are used to having eight sets of tees so they can reach every green in regulation. ;)
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;D
I actually hate the multiple tee deal despite the sense of it. Clutters the playing field and it’s tough in the superintendent. . I’d vote for a daily and forward tee combo , and if someone wants to play the tips have at it !
Simplify simplify simplify
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There are plenty of examples of good/great par 4 holes that won’t be reached from the member tees by most players. A couple holes out of the full set that fit this description create variety and despite the difficulty are cherished pars.
Tim:
Obviously, I agree, or I wouldn't still build holes like that. In fact I like them so much that I am prepared to listen to the gripes of players who are used to having eight sets of tees so they can reach every green in regulation. ;)
Tom,
Nothing wrong with a few Par Fours that are very tough for many guys to reach in two shots. I think that adds to a golf course.
IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.
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IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.
Tim:
Mostly nowadays people just want a cheap birdie. :D
It's possible they will change one of the holes to a par-5, as they are 480-490 yards from the back tee and 430+ from the middle. We would probably have done so already except that these are the 9th and 13th holes we are talking about, and the 10th and 12th are two of the three existing par-5's, and they don't really want to have three par-5's in four holes, either!
As I said, it's a big-boy stretch of holes.
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Tom,
The US A does not return to Pinehurst until 2038, but was part of the design brief to have PH 10 as an option for the second course? Or maybe to attract the NCAAs?
Thanks.
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The US A does not return to Pinehurst until 2038, but was part of the design brief to have PH 10 as an option for the second course? Or maybe to attract the NCAAs?
Ira: No, that was not a stated goal, they just asked me to build the best course I could. I think we all figured that between #2 and #4 they didn’t really need another championship course. But, they may re-think that someday.
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IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.
We would probably have done so already except that these are the 9th and 13th holes we are talking about, and the 10th and 12th are two of the three existing par-5's, and they don't really want to have three par-5's in four holes, either!
As I said, it's a big-boy stretch of holes.
It works for North Berwick to have three in a four hole stretch! ;D
That said, I think the resort should stick with the long par 3 (14th?) and long par 4s. It's nice to make a birdie, but there's a difference between making birdie on 18 at Sheep Ranch, and making birdie on 18 at Merion.
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IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.
Tim:
Mostly nowadays people just want a cheap birdie. :D
As I said, it's a big-boy stretch of holes.
Tom,
I don't see birdie chasers nearly as much as I see T(H)ip poseurs who only think the back tees exist.
The US A does not return to Pinehurst until 2038, but was part of the design brief to have PH 10 as an option for the second course? Or maybe to attract the NCAAs?
Ira: No, that was not a stated goal, they just asked me to build the best course I could. I think we all figured that between #2 and #4 they didn’t really need another championship course. But, they may re-think that someday.
I wonder if #10 would host any tournament before PCC allows significant access to its members. Just a thought.
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The only tournament I know of is the Renaissance Cup in November. We thought about doing it last fall, but the superintendents wanted everything to be 100% which it certainly wasn’t then.
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Tom,
One more point I want to make about #17. When you gave Paul and I a tour of the course, we didn’t actually observe the green up close. But even from the back tee I could see the variety of pin positions the green offered.
IMO, a front right pin position is much different than back left and I suspect it could be tricky for both resort guests and members who get to play the course more frequently.
What I imagine is standing on the tee and being undecided regarding club selection. A well struck club “X” might be perfect, but if not so well struck it might mean falling short into the water.
On the other hand, club “Y” - 1 or 2 longer than “X” - might take the water out of play but leave a tricky downhill putt or chip.
There are many forced carry Par 3s, but this aspect on #17 makes it different and pretty cool IMO.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2024/03/26/pinehurst-unveils-sandmines-branding-for-new-course-and-surrounds/?sh=4d417a584d3e
For you PCC members here, was this a surprise?
"Pinehurst Resort" has certainly trumped/screwed "Pinehurst Country Club".
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Peter:
I don't understand your last post. There is nothing in that story about the members and what their deal is for the new course. Are you saying that because they've branded it differently there is no access at all for the members?
I honestly don't know anything about how the memberships and resort play coexist. But I don't think the members had anything to do with funding another course, so I don't know what rights to it they should expect, unless their agreement specifically addresses future courses.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2024/03/26/pinehurst-unveils-sandmines-branding-for-new-course-and-surrounds/?sh=4d417a584d3e (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2024/03/26/pinehurst-unveils-sandmines-branding-for-new-course-and-surrounds/?sh=4d417a584d3e)
For you PCC members here, was this a surprise?
"Pinehurst Resort" has certainly trumped/screwed "Pinehurst Country Club".
Was what a surprise? The only thing that I can think is you are asking if as a member I feel screwed that the resort is expanding and not including membership play on #10. To that I'll say I don't feel slighted at all.
When I signed up it was clear the standard golf membership included courses #1-6 with a club within a club option for #7 with a higher monthly fee. They've changed/added membership categories a bit but the standard 1-6 membership has remained.
I wouldn't be surprised if the golf landscape changes at some point in the future and they add #10 as an option for members (likely with another membership category - and additional fee).
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Congrats to all that worked on the course and got it ready for tomorrow's opening. That's a heck of an accomplishment to start and finish a course in a year and a month give or take a few days.
I'll be there in a few weeks (fingers crossed on the weather!), and I was having a scout of the scorecard. It was nice to see that there are only four sets of tees, but you can play combos. I think this is a great way to provide a distance for all resort guests, but not have to set-up six or seven different tees. Depending on the day/conditions/wind, I'd like to think I would flex between the greens (5700), whites (6450) or a combo (6100).
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Depending on the day/conditions/wind, I'd like to think I would flex between the greens (5700), whites (6450) or a combo (6100).
It is a par 70 so those tees all play 250-300 yards longer than they sound.
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Stopped by on opening day today to try to spend some money in the shop, but… they're only allowing those playing.
Oh well.
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Stopped by on opening day today to try to spend some money in the shop, but… they're only allowing those playing.
Oh well.
I heard they are carrying the “Duck and Cover” line of outerwear which would have been perfect for you. Next time….
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I heard they are carrying the “Duck and Cover” line of outerwear which would have been perfect for you. Next time….
Contributing to the discussion like always. Thanks, Peter Pan. Don't ever grow up.
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Stopped by on opening day today to try to spend some money in the shop, but… they're only allowing those playing.
Oh well.
I heard they are carrying the “Duck and Cover” line of outerwear which would have been perfect for you. Next time….
Tim, Not sure if congratulations are in order but it looks like you are off the ignore list! I guess we needed to know he couldn't buy merch at # 10.
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Tim, Not sure if congratulations are in order but it looks like you are off the ignore list! I guess we needed to know he couldn't buy merch at # 10.
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum doing as they always do: making it personal while doing absolutely zip to advance the discussion. Congrats.
You're both on the ignore list, but the site is as broken as your ability to contribute, so as you know… posts aren't actually hidden or ignored, and when either of you say something particularly stupid, I don't mind pointing it out.
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There are plenty of examples of good/great par 4 holes that won’t be reached from the member tees by most players. A couple holes out of the full set that fit this description create variety and despite the difficulty are cherished pars.
Tim:
Obviously, I agree, or I wouldn't still build holes like that. In fact I like them so much that I am prepared to listen to the gripes of players who are used to having eight sets of tees so they can reach every green in regulation. ;)
For the life of me, I will never understand this criticism.
That's what handicap shots are for.
There were so many such holes back in the day, and no one thought anything of it.
The "white tees" , that most play, have gotten much shorter due to the 8 sets of tees over the past 30 years, despite all gaining 5-15% in distance.
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Pinehurst Resort opened its highly anticipated No. 10 course on April 3. Designed by Tom Doak, with Angela Moser serving as lead associate, No. 10 is the first new Pinehurst Resort course to be built in nearly three decades, since Tom Fazio’s No. 8 debuted on the site of the old Pinehurst Gun Club.
Located three miles south of the main resort clubhouse in Aberdeen, the new 18-hole No. 10 layout is draped atop ground that had once housed a Dan Maples-designed course called The Pit, which existed from 1985 until 2010. With natural ridgelines, intriguing landforms, towering longleaf pines, streams and ponds, Doak designed a course that complements the resort’s other courses through its contrasts.
Read more from www.firstcallgolf.com
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Pinehurst Resort opened its highly anticipated No. 10 course on April 3. Designed by Tom Doak, with Angela Moser serving as lead associate, No. 10 is the first new Pinehurst Resort course to be built in nearly three decades, since Tom Fazio’s No. 8 debuted on the site of the old Pinehurst Gun Club.
Located three miles south of the main resort clubhouse in Aberdeen, the new 18-hole No. 10 layout is draped atop ground that had once housed a Dan Maples-designed course called The Pit, which existed from 1985 until 2010. With natural ridgelines, intriguing landforms, towering longleaf pines, streams and ponds, Doak designed a course that complements the resort’s other courses through its contrasts.
Read more from www.firstcallgolf.com (http://www.firstcallgolf.com)
Thanks Steve.
Kinda surprised the course's first three weeks were not more highlighted here.
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Pinehurst Resort opened its highly anticipated No. 10 course on April 3. Designed by Tom Doak, with Angela Moser serving as lead associate, No. 10 is the first new Pinehurst Resort course to be built in nearly three decades, since Tom Fazio’s No. 8 debuted on the site of the old Pinehurst Gun Club.
Located three miles south of the main resort clubhouse in Aberdeen, the new 18-hole No. 10 layout is draped atop ground that had once housed a Dan Maples-designed course called The Pit, which existed from 1985 until 2010. With natural ridgelines, intriguing landforms, towering longleaf pines, streams and ponds, Doak designed a course that complements the resort’s other courses through its contrasts.
Read more from www.firstcallgolf.com (http://www.firstcallgolf.com)
Thanks Steve.
Kinda surprised the course's first three weeks were not more highlighted here.
I'll be there today and hope to report back here soon!
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Pinehurst Resort opened its highly anticipated No. 10 course on April 3. Designed by Tom Doak, with Angela Moser serving as lead associate, No. 10 is the first new Pinehurst Resort course to be built in nearly three decades, since Tom Fazio’s No. 8 debuted on the site of the old Pinehurst Gun Club.
Located three miles south of the main resort clubhouse in Aberdeen, the new 18-hole No. 10 layout is draped atop ground that had once housed a Dan Maples-designed course called The Pit, which existed from 1985 until 2010. With natural ridgelines, intriguing landforms, towering longleaf pines, streams and ponds, Doak designed a course that complements the resort’s other courses through its contrasts.
Read more from www.firstcallgolf.com (http://www.firstcallgolf.com)
Thanks Steve.
Kinda surprised the course's first three weeks were not more highlighted here.
I'll be there today and hope to report back here soon!
i’m playing May 6 please don’t post too much information lol
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Pinehurst Resort opened its highly anticipated No. 10 course on April 3. Designed by Tom Doak, with Angela Moser serving as lead associate, No. 10 is the first new Pinehurst Resort course to be built in nearly three decades, since Tom Fazio’s No. 8 debuted on the site of the old Pinehurst Gun Club.
Located three miles south of the main resort clubhouse in Aberdeen, the new 18-hole No. 10 layout is draped atop ground that had once housed a Dan Maples-designed course called The Pit, which existed from 1985 until 2010. With natural ridgelines, intriguing landforms, towering longleaf pines, streams and ponds, Doak designed a course that complements the resort’s other courses through its contrasts.
Read more from www.firstcallgolf.com (http://www.firstcallgolf.com)
Thanks Steve.
Kinda surprised the course's first three weeks were not more highlighted here.
I'll be there today and hope to report back here soon!
i’m playing May 6 please don’t post too much information lol
You don't want to hear about my up and down for double?! ;D ;D ;D I'll just post general observations.
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I reached out to them as I wanted to take my son to play it for his birthday and the greens fee for #10 is $450.
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I reached out to them as I wanted to take my son to play it for his birthday and the greens fee for #10 is $450.
Golf as it was meant to be! I recently received an email offering membership to Whispering Pines (Ellis Maples, 36 holes) for $300/month.
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I reached out to them as I wanted to take my son to play it for his birthday and the greens fee for #10 is $450.
Each? Wow. At 10 minute tee times.- $1800 each foursome
- $10,800 each hour
- $64,800 per day, assuming 6 hours of tee times
- $453,600 per week
- $1,841,400 per month
Obviously assuming no rainouts or weather events. Great business and I'm sure the first couple years will be slammed.
Tom here is a Shark Tank offer you can make on your next public course in lieu of your design fee. $5 bucks a player royalty (1% green fee approx.) for like the first year ($720 a day / $262,800 first year), drop a dollar each year until you get $1 in perpetuity starting year 6. That would be a nice retirement annuity!
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I reached out to them as I wanted to take my son to play it for his birthday and the greens fee for #10 is $450.
Was a resort stay a prerequisite? If so, did that $450 include a night or two of lodging?
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This video piece has recently been released - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-3tMbecACpQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-3tMbecACpQ)
All the better for less than usual talking head chat.
Atb