Once you complete your first successful career you’ll find more satisfaction failing at anything than doing nothing.
First, a question: would you suggest to someone else that they switch careers at your age to become a dentist?
I will offer my advice here, the same as I give to anyone thinking of switching careers at your age to become a golf course architect.
Don't.
I say this on behalf of all of the young people who have been pursuing a career in the business for the past 10-20 years. It's a hard way to make a living, and it takes a long time to establish a reputation. [As Bill Coore aptly put it, I was an "overnight success" when I built Pacific Dunes at the age of 40 . . . twenty years after he and I met, and I had already started pursuing that dream.]
I'm a big believer in the free market and everyone having a chance. If you're really passionate, you likely won't be talked out of it. But you are probably overestimating the demand for designers, and you are surely underestimating the army of young men and women who have a five- to fifteen-year head start on you.
I thought you might say that, Tom. I appreciate your reply too.
Would I encourage someone at 41 to go to college and dental school and rack up $500,000 in debt to become a dentist by 50 if they were considering it? Maybe.
If they've done their due diligence into the realities of the job rather than the perceptions of the job) then yes, if they've considered the following:Are they clear they have no intention or desire of retiring for 25 years or more?How long will their debt-to-income ratio take to invert?
Have they made conservative estimates on their career P&L's and debt repayments.
Have they shadowed successful AND struggling dentists to see what they do differently?
Do they understand not all dentist become wealthy, or and most don't even enjoy their job. Have they witnessed the differences?
Do they understand many dentists fail because they can't handle the management and social requirements and headaches; and therefore about only 30% truly enjoy their career and only 10% truly kick ass at it?
Have they reverse engineered where they'll practice based on demographic needs for their service?
If they understand all this, and a TON more due diligence realities, and still want to pursue tooth carpentry, then yes.
John Kavanaugh's quote "Once you complete your first successful career you’ll find more satisfaction failing at anything than doing nothing" describes my feelings perfectly. I'd be beyond naive to think I can reach the a similar level of success in a different career just because I did it in one. I'm already experiencing the differences via Hooper, and my contributions to it are currently small.
I'd rather know I couldn't make it work rather than wonder if I could have if I tried. That said, I have no intention of joining the golf design world if my income and lifestyle depended on it. I thoroughly enjoy dentistry and age 50 isn't a point where I hope to "hang up the handpiece", but it'll be a time when I can explore curiosities without depending on my own dental productivity in my office.
When the time comes, I believe I'll be willing to get my hands dirty and take on the more inelegant tasks of the job. If the crappy parts are manageable or even enjoyable, then continue on I shall.
But if you want to BE a golf architect, you can start by calling yourself one and see how far that gets you.If you want to BE an architect, waiting is fruitless, because it takes far too long to establish yourself.
In 2008, we had a market crash, while that year finished up fine, starting in November I did not bill a single dollar till July 2009. At that time, I had around 30 renovation clients, which would be considered a stable business. Every single construction project in 2009 got cancelled. Every early season planning trip was canceled. The new build I thought was already approved and going that fall with Mike Weir got cancelled (unfortunately never to return). The real estate side collapsed which ended the few new Canadian courses that might have happened for me then. The renovation side collapsed due to financial concerns and declining private memberships.
If you're married, get a good lawyer for your upcoming divorce.
It's not a great business for married people unless the significant other understands the commitment.
It gets better when you are an architect, but for most, that's after a decade or more in the field.This always appeared to be a very real potential issue, and if a chance to make it in the GCA world meant certain divorce, I'd pass. I enojoy my wife and my marriage to her more than the dream
Most finally break away and build their first few jobs for smaller clients.
It may be just tees and a bunker or two. You survive before you thrive.I'm hoping to make Hooper my vehicle for that entry into a smaller job. I struggle with a Green Committee that does not want to take much action into restoring the original greens dimensions, rehabbing the bunkers, and creating new ways to experience and play Hooper without changing an elements of its design.
I think it was Mike Young who said, it doesn't matter what you can create if you can't find work.
You have to be good at finding projects and convincing people to build your ideas.
Most future architects still build the work of others periodically till they establish themselves.
So Don asked the best question....But if you want to BE a golf architect, you can start by calling yourself one and see how far that gets you.If you want to BE an architect, waiting is fruitless, because it takes far too long to establish yourself. Hence why I want to begin my due diligence and learning processes now
You have to make the entire journey, pay your dues like everyone else, there are no short cuts.
Remember, there are many others are on the same path as you and not everyone even become architect.
So this last thing is really important too ... it's the reality check
We don't always get to do "exactly" what we hoped to do.
I'm 35 years in (I'm arguably successful?), but I've never built a golf course on a raw site under my own name.
That's most people's goal at the outset. That will be much more for future architects.
Golf has massive future headwinds with land costs, permitting, water, etc.
So what is the goal, to have some fun? Be the next Tom Doak? In a perfect world, both. But just as I originally thought I'd be happy being a basic dentist (and I was), becoming arguably the "Tom Doak of dentists" (that's self-proclaimed) in my area has been fun too. And I did it by seizing opportunities, expanding my skill sets, and offering consumers (patient base) what the competition could not offer and when they wanted it.To be honest, my guts tells me I have something I can contribute to the golf design world and to the golfers, and one day i hope to deliver something of value
A couple of years ago I started a thread herein entitled something like ‘The most difficult aspects of being a golf course architect’. The responses from those in the business themselves were both insightful and enlightening. Inside the bubble might not be what it seems from outside.I hope I find that thread.Similarly in the dental world there are lots of threads discussing how challenging or miserable it is for many
Atb
Being clueless seems to be one of my strong suits that, like you, has been an asset on the path to success. Yes, I'm happy to hear more of your perspective in PMs, Jeff. And thank you.
All of which I am glad I wasn't really aware of when I made my life decisions on getting and staying in the biz. I guess it helps to have a generally positive outlook on life.....or being totally clueless....I was probably a case of the latter more than the former.
TD is also right in that guys my age have to look in the mirror and realize much of our good luck came as a result of the times. That said, Perry Maxwell and others started in worse economic times and managed to survive, if not prosper. For that matter, coming out of college, I was lucky to even get a job in the field. I had bugged Killian and Nugent so much from the age of 12, they felt they had to hire me. In 1977, the profession was reeling from the politics of 1974 Watergate, oil prices being high, etc., not too dissimilar from right now.
If we squash the dreams of golfers we will find ourselves playing the visions of internet influencers. I’ll take young Dr. Bowman over a vampire who currently feeds off the game.
I like Kyle Harris’ comment about what are you going to do different than all of those who have a 10 year head start?
At age 50, you’ll have a hard time taking the shaper route. And the other route is to learn to draw on a computer and work toward being an associate. But I don’t know any architects hiring associates anymore. I see shapers get hired to also act as design associates, but I don’t remember the last time I met an “office” design associate.
There is a shortage of entry level individuals who want to learn to be construction superintendents. I know that title sounds nowhere near as sexy as architect or designer, but I’ll bet most here would be surprised at how involved construction personnel are in bringing a course to life. It’s why I asked what you wanted to DO? Because if you want to build golf, the opportunities are there, now. It’s not dentist money out of the gate, but you’ll make a lot more taking a construction entry level path than establishing a design business, and you’ll quickly find out if it’s what you really want to do for the next 20 years.
You're welcome.
I was asking about design in general... teeth, caps, veneers, tools, dentist chair, waiting room, zen garden counts....
I was a designer of many, many things and just changed what I designed.
Visualization is a big deal, and composition is too (think who can take a good picture).
Drawing what you want at your club, communicating your plan, and convincing them to spend their money would be an excellent project for you.
cheers
Partly related, but a phenomenon I've seen in a couple of places is of a well-off middle-aged person turning their hobby into a new job. But in sort of a tangential way. Like a woodworking business where maybe most of the income is from a youtube channel or something like that. I'm curious if that type of scenario would appeal in this case. (I'd also be curious what it's like in that type of vocation to be competing against someone who doesn't even make money doing the actual thing?)Hell, there are plenty that :"play house" in the golf design business. Either wife works or they made their money in another business or they inherited money. But that's their deal....just like all the "senior tours" in Florida where you to pay to play for your own money... ;D ;D ;D oops..I forgot the golf writer business also...some of the real clowns in that business take themselves extremely seriously...
Do you know what your superintendent wants? He is an enigma to say the least. I’m one of his biggest supporters, however. He’s extremely resistant to change or doing anything that “most courses don’t do”. I’m his opposite, I like my course to offer to golfers what “most other golf courses don’t do”
Have they given you the irrigation and drainage as-builts? I’m not sure if they still have the irrigation plans from 1999. Drainage is easy, water pools in the same places every snow that lol. The Super has done a couple things to minimize this
Do you have lots of pictures of the areas you want to improve? I have ground level and drone shots of the whole course. We do have some photos of Hooper’s early days with Stiles’ original bunker margins. They had much more character than our current smooth edges
Have you measured areas and yardages using google earth?
:)
You're welcome.
I was asking about design in general... teeth, caps, veneers, tools, dentist chair, waiting room, zen garden counts....
I was a designer of many, many things and just changed what I designed.
Visualization is a big deal, and composition is too (think who can take a good picture).
Drawing what you want at your club, communicating your plan, and convincing them to spend their money would be an excellent project for you.
cheers
Peter - I noticed in the recent Golf Magazine rankings that Hooper came in 5th in New Hampshire. As a member of Dublin Lake Club about 15 miles back along 101 it interests me that a nine-hole course would get that recognition, esp when they left a couple of 18 hole Donald Ross courses off the list. I'll have to wander over when I get the opportunity this summer.
At this point, the recognition Hooper has received may inspire your fellow members into further improvement, so I would second Mike Nuzzo's thought about first attempting to influence whatever can be paid for at your home course. Who knows you might be the next Rob Collins!
As far as developing world-class expertise, I've been lucky enough to meet a number of people I would consider to be masters of their craft. Tom Doak being one of those people... he knows everything about building a world class golf course. Permitting, budgeting etc. A couple of the others being one of the Coen Brothers (when they agreed to take a meeting about doing a commercial for our ad agency) and of course Steve Jobs.. To Tom's initial point, not only are these extraordinarily talented people, they were laser focused on what they saw as their life's mission from a very early age... (Steve Jobs was fishing parts out of the rubbish bins at Xerox Spark when he was 16 years of age to build things with Steve Wozniak. Ethan and Joel Coen were making some pretty funny home movies when they were barely in their teens in Minnesota.)
So the possibility of developing world-class GCA expertise and the reputation that goes with it is something that unfortunately should have been started at least 20 years ago. That said, you could have some fun if you can master driving one of those shaping vehicles around a green site. :)
Is it safe?
There is some real ageist crap being spewed here.
To say that the creative aspect of life has passed him by is ageist by definition.I've not seen anyone say (or write) that.
The good dentist is only 41. He’ll make his nut by 50. To say that the creative aspect of life has passed him by is ageist by definition.It is not age. It is experience.
Even the grounded grouch admitted it’s possible with enough money and patience. Why is a professional golfer so much mor qualified than a dentist? Age is the only “excuse” I’ve seen given.
So true, your first pp. When I used to hire folks, I always told them they would be evaluated over 6 months for permanent hire. Truthfully, I could usually tell within a few weeks whether they had that "designer's sense." At least, when we were busy, as we were lucky to be most of the late 1980's-2006 or so, which was probably the last time I actually had full time staff.
So true, your first pp. When I used to hire folks, I always told them they would be evaluated over 6 months for permanent hire. Truthfully, I could usually tell within a few weeks whether they had that "designer's sense." At least, when we were busy, as we were lucky to be most of the late 1980's-2006 or so, which was probably the last time I actually had full time staff.
Ugh, not you [and Ally, too?]. It's pure ego to think that you born with some "designer gene", and the other 99% of the world was not. It's all a continuum, and while some people are going to design more interesting courses than others, it's not anyone's birthright.
To me, what makes someone better at design is understanding how all of the technical parts play their role, so you can design great holes that incorporate those details in a way no one even notices. By that logic, the more experience you have building golf courses, the better you're going to be at design. Someone with talent as a shaper or experience as a "construction guy" has a leg up on everyone else, all other things being equal.
Peter's thought of volunteering to work for free [an offer I've probably had 20-30 times from others] is a "tell" for me. I am happy to pay good money to people who want to help build my courses and make them better. That's what we are all out there to do, and you learn a lot by doing it. But I'm not there for anyone who wants to stand off to the side and have me teach them, and he'll have a very hard time finding other people who want to help him if that's the attitude.
The person with the right attitude will never mention the money at all, and trust that they will make a contribution and get paid fairly for it. And really, you have to have that kind of faith to make it in a business where you never know where your next client is coming from.
To me, what makes someone better at design is understanding how all of the technical parts play their role, so you can design great holes that incorporate those details in a way no one even notices. By that logic, the more experience you have building golf courses, the better you're going to be at design. Someone with talent as a shaper or experience as a "construction guy" has a leg up on everyone else, all other things being equal.
So true, your first pp. When I used to hire folks, I always told them they would be evaluated over 6 months for permanent hire. Truthfully, I could usually tell within a few weeks whether they had that "designer's sense." At least, when we were busy, as we were lucky to be most of the late 1980's-2006 or so, which was probably the last time I actually had full time staff.
Ugh, not you [and Ally, too?]. It's pure ego to think that you born with some "designer gene", and the other 99% of the world was not. It's all a continuum, and while some people are going to design more interesting courses than others, it's not anyone's birthright.
To me, what makes someone better at design is understanding how all of the technical parts play their role, so you can design great holes that incorporate those details in a way no one even notices. By that logic, the more experience you have building golf courses, the better you're going to be at design. Someone with talent as a shaper or experience as a "construction guy" has a leg up on everyone else, all other things being equal.
This is a very interesting topic, I'm loving the back-and-forth. It's that age-old question between "doing what you love" and "why would you want to take something you love and make it into work".I've wondered about the same thing. I have many patients who retire from a desk job and they take up hobbies like carpentry. Within a year they find themselves employed FT for a home builder and loving it. Some have stuck with it because they enjoy it so much and weren't doing it for the sole purpose of feeding their family. Others stop after 5 years because it felt too much like work.I think one advantage to those who switch careers to one that clearly pays less than their previous one (unless they make it to the top 4% of the field) is they can afford much more risk when feeding a family isn't the driving factor or a necessity. They can trade Security for adventure that potentially provides higher rewards within the opportunities that may exist.
At least in this case, it doesn't seem to be a case of Peter risking homelessness with this type of career move.
Partly related, but a phenomenon I've seen in a couple of places is of a well-off middle-aged person turning their hobby into a new job. But in sort of a tangential way. Like a woodworking business where maybe most of the income is from a youtube channel or something like that. I'm curious if that type of scenario would appeal in this case. (I'd also be curious what it's like in that type of vocation to be competing against someone who doesn't even make money doing the actual thing?)
Ally,Well stated..
GCA is only “difficult” compared to other professions or arts because it’s so niche and there are far fewer jobs than people wanting to participate.
For what it’s worth, I got involved in my thirties. Because of my age, maturity and experience in another profession, it enabled me to carve out my own path at least partially on my own terms. If I had gone straight in 15 years earlier, I would have started as some office jockey for an architect whose philosophy I probably didn’t agree with but who shaped my thoughts.
That’s the main difference between now and then: The youngsters are getting shaped by experience in the field rather than drawing details.
Tom, Ah....I think if you Google it, you will find there are different personality types, with some leaning to design.
I'd be curious to know if anyone wants to take a stab at it.Less than 100. Excluding guys who work for a signature pro golfer who gets his work via a sports agent etc...
How many front men golf course designers or architects exist world wide who legitimately make a living off their profession? Not rich with private jets or Ferraris and such, but enough to afford a decent lifestyle and put food on the table as Jeff puts it.
Tom, Ah....I think if you Google it, you will find there are different personality types, with some leaning to design.
Yeah, I've got the same personality type, but my ADHD tendencies may be a more accurate indicator of my personality and way of processing information. Maybe that's really what is underlying those test results?
I'm sure I didnt use it right because I bet most GCAs learn it through that schoolIs it safe?
Love that reference, JakaB. Babe and Doc would be amused. Szell maybe not so much.
Is it just me or is the phrase ‘school of hard knocks’ being totally misused/misunderstood here?
F.
To the ageists:
Betty started training jiu jitsu at 54 and was awarded a black belt 10 years later
https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/ (https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/)
To the ageists:
Betty started training jiu jitsu at 54 and was awarded a black belt 10 years later
https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/ (https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/)
To the ageists:
Betty started training jiu jitsu at 54 and was awarded a black belt 10 years later
https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/ (https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/)
Mike:
Betty is a black belt. How many are there? Did she really become one of the 100-200 best in the world? Because that's what you've got to be, to be a successful golf course architect.
I guess I am something of an ageist, because I am pretty certain that one of my chief advantages was being able to start on my own so young -- with nothing to be cautious about, and with all the time in the world to make mistakes and learn and get to where I am today.
I don't believe that younger people are better or that older people can't become great designers, and I value experience. But time is on the side of the young. So if I was going to try to teach everything I know to someone, I'd pick somebody young.
But I do contribute a lot of information here for people of all ages.
I'd be curious to know if anyone wants to take a stab at it.Less than 100. Excluding guys who work for a signature pro golfer who gets his work via a sports agent etc...
How many front men golf course designers or architects exist world wide who legitimately make a living off their profession? Not rich with private jets or Ferraris and such, but enough to afford a decent lifestyle and put food on the table as Jeff puts it.
Wow. Just wow.Can you elaborate, Ira? Maybe I'm dumb about this, but… I don't see anything TD said that rates as "wow." I agree with much of what Tom wrote.
He’ll still be in his 60’s in 2050. There is time for experience.
Wow. Just wow.Can you elaborate, Ira? Maybe I'm dumb about this, but… I don't see anything TD said that rates as "wow." I agree with much of what Tom wrote.
Found the old thread I raised about the hardest and most time consuming aspects of being a golf course architect - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67141.msg1611769.html#msg1611769A couple of years ago I started a thread herein entitled something like ‘The most difficult aspects of being a golf course architect’. The responses from those in the business themselves were both insightful and enlightening. Inside the bubble might not be what it seems from outside.I hope I find that thread.Similarly in the dental world there are lots of threads discussing how challenging or miserable it is for many
Atb
I haven’t read all of the responses, but something I haven’t seen mentioned is the turfgrass management aspect of golf design and the ability to think about the future needs and management requirements. This is whole skill set in itself aside from just shaping and construction.
;D ::) ::) ::)I’d love to hear how many architects entered the field by purchasing a course to start their career.
Hey guys sounds like our subject is pretty sharp but suggesting he buy a course rather than a job ?
A lot cheaper to fail as a shaper than lose millions...and running a place might look easy but :P
;D ::) ::) ::)
Hey guys sounds like our subject is pretty sharp but suggesting he buy a course rather than a job ?
A lot cheaper to fail as a shaper than lose millions...and running a place might look easy but :P
"putts don't walk in"
;D ::) ::) ::)
Hey guys sounds like our subject is pretty sharp but suggesting he buy a course rather than a job ?
A lot cheaper to fail as a shaper than lose millions...and running a place might look easy but :P
"putts don't walk in"
;D ::) ::) ::)
Hey guys sounds like our subject is pretty sharp but suggesting he buy a course rather than a job ?
A lot cheaper to fail as a shaper than lose millions...and running a place might look easy but :P
"putts don't walk in"
Ravisloe was purchased for something like $3.4MM and that was a Ross country club with a pretty nice history and great bones. The buyer was a veterinarian and a non-golfer. But if the buyer would have been a dentist with architectural aspirations, his first job could be restoring the Ross gem to its highest potential (de-treeing, widening the fairways to their original dimensions, etc). Could hire a management company to run it.
Starting with restoration work instead of original design seems like a good stepping stone. The downside is much less because the budget is less and you could theoretically keep operations going during the process, depending on the level of restoration. Could string it out over a few years and combine a lot of personal labor into it instead of out of pocket funding.
Didn't Pete and Alice Dye self fund one of their first designs?
All other things being equal, moving green side sprinklers isn't that expensive, presuming the sub-mains aren't under the green. Even if they are, your crew could trench new 2-2.5" pipe around the greens. If re-doing greens, you probably would want to upgrade the sprinklers around them anyway, as protection of your investment.
Peter aren't you glad you asked this question? ;D If you are still gung ho then we all can't wait for your first design.