Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Darren_Kilfara on December 02, 2003, 08:43:39 AM
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On one of my recent flights home from Australia, I was trying to figure out whether I'd prefer (in golfing terms) being exiled to the Melbourne sand belt or the Surrey heathlands. They both struck me as being quite similar; Royal Melbourne - West is probably the pick of the bunch, but Surrey probably has more strength in depth, and the general feel of the courses was a lot similar than I'd expected. Anyway, one rumination led to another, and I thought, well, what if I widened the scope of inquiry a bit and investigated "golfing regions" on a global basis, and invited everyone into the previously popular "Survivor" format of voting off one participant at a time?
That conjecture has led me to the following list of contending "regions", with notable golf courses I can come up with off the top of my head in the appropriate regions listed in parentheses:
--Fife, Scotland (St. Andrews Old, St. Andrews New)
--East Lothian, Scotland (Muirfield, North Berwick)
--Ayrshire, Scotland (Turnberry, Troon)
--Surrey, England (Swinley Forest, Sunningdale)
--Kent, England (Royal St. George's, Rye)
--Wales (Royal Porthcawl, Pennard)
--South-Central Victoria, Australia (Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath)
--Japan (Hirono, Kasumigaseki)
--South Africa (Durban)
--Northern California, i.e. SF + Monterrey (Cypress Point, San Francisco GC)
--Southern California, i.e. LA + Palm Springs (Riviera, LACC)
--Oregon (Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes)
--Arizona (Desert Mountain, Forest Highlands)
--Nebraska (Sand Hills, Wild Horse)
--Northern Michigan (Crystal Downs, The Kingsley Club)
--Florida (Seminole, TPC Sawgrass)
--Georgia (Augusta National, Cuscowilla)
--South Carolina (Kiawah Island Ocean, Harbour Town)
--Greater New York City excl. Long Island (Winged Foot, etc.)
--Long Island (NGLA, Shinnecock, Friar's Head)
--Greater Philadelphia excl. New Jersey (Merion, etc.)
--New Jersey (Pine Valley, Garden City)
--Greater Boston incl. Rhode Island (Brookline, Wannamoissett)
--Greater Chicago (Chicago GC, etc.)
You'll have noted that I've intentionally gerrymandered some regions to make the game "fair", in some instances (e.g. an Arizona-sized region on the Eastern Seaboard could encompass every noteworthy course from Brookline to Augusta to Chicago GC). Rather than beginning the game now, I'd like to open the parameters of debate on the above subjects...are there regions I'm missing? (Any as-yet-unlisted US state, British county or foreign country?) Is some of my gerrymandering unfair on a particular region, in your opinion? Once we have a consensus on the list itself, round one will be a general cull of those regions which are deemed to be unworthy of inclusion in the game, in which you'll be able to nominate up to 10 regions for exclusion from the round two (mainly so that we're not still playing the game next summer). After that, we'll have a straight one-at-a-time knockout procedure. Does that sound good to everyone? Any suggestions would be welcome before we begin...
Cheers,
Darren
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How about adding "North Carolina Sand Hills - (Pinehurst, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road)??
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Northern Ireland:
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Southwestern Ireland:
Ballybunion
Lahinch
Doonbeg
Just an add.
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Just go with the Columbus region: Muirfield, Scioto, The Golf Club, Double Eagle, throw in Brookside, Cooks Creek, and a couple of others.
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Clarify the rules straight from the start - do weather and other quality of life issues count, or are we to assume magical constant great weather, unlimited money, etc.? That is, is this about the regions or just the golf courses?
TH
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Exile me to the eastern Highlands any day: Dornoch, Brora, the Carnegie Links (and I assume that like the real Survivor, someone else will be footing the bill?).
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Michigan?
Northern Michigan is on the original list.
Darren,
You exclude Long Island from "Greater New York City" and have New Jersey as a separate entity, so what you really mean is "Westchester County". Greater NYC would really include western Long Island (Garden City, Bethpage, Piping Rock, The Creek), and northern NJ (Baltusrol, Somerset Hills, Ridgewood, Plainfield), in addition to Westchester County (WF, Quaker Ridge, Fenway).
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Huck is correct. There needs to be some criterior like 'all golf all the time'. If we throw in a twist perhaps Monterey won't win hands down. ;D
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We are simpatico on this one, Adam. We do need to keep it fair for the rest of the world this time. ;)
TH
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Our Canadian friends (and their favorite architect, Stanley Thompson) are absent. What about Banff and Jasper? What about Capilano? What about Highland Links?
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So, as I understand it, terciary factors like quality of weather, good bars, hotness of femmes/scenery, quality of non-golf sporting environment (ie, Chicago gets points for Wrigley) etc., don't count, correct? This is just about golf and nothing else? I have a question -- why?
It's up to Darren to decide if all that counts, shivas. I'm just ASKING because this was quite controversial the last time we did this... Hey, I'm with you, we ought to stick to real life to make this meaningful... but I don't make the rules!
TH
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Replace Kent with SE England (btw, Rye is in E Sussex). Deal, Princes, Littlestone, and Chart Hills are in Kent but from a central point, The Addington, Walton Heath, Royal Ashdown Forest, Royal Blackheath and its incredible library/museum as well as all the courses in Kent are about the same distance away - about an hour's drive.
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Monte-r-ey is in Alto California, Monte-r-r-ey is eeen Mex-hico, Señor, near the baja California.
Give Darren a break, he was probably reading his GCA T-Shirt from George Pazin. ;)
I agree an Ohio/West Penn region would be pretty good, could even include W-VA so that Pete Dye Club could get in there.
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Regionally Ohio/W.Pa/WVa are close, but asking those folks to cross boundries and play together is not going to work out very well. Ever been to a Steelers vs. Browns game?...not alot of love there.
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Not sure about Survivor, but I typically take one look at the line-up of ladies for The Bachelor and pick the winner. "Just one look, is all it took." I never watch the show thereafter, and have my teenage daughter report the winner. I'm seldom wrong.
Same thing here: Finals will pit Monterey and Long Island. Book it! It's a push absent the weather factor. Then again, there's always the railroad factor, as evidenced by the early departure of Donald Ross from the Dead Architect's Survivor Series and Paul Turner's manipulation of the vote to insure his man Colt is the winner::)
Mike
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Not sure about Survivor, but I typically take one look at the line-up of ladies for The Bachelor and pick the winner. "Just one look, is all it took." I never watch the show thereafter, and have my teenage daughter report the winner. I'm seldom wrong
So do tell, did you pick Estella for Bachelor Bob?
TH
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Monte-r-ey is in Alto California, Monte-r-r-ey is eeen Mex-hico, Señor, near the baja California.
Give Darren a break, he was probably reading his GCA T-Shirt from George Pazin. ;)
;D ;D
Weather be damned, Monterey comes with all those west coast nut cases as well! :)
'Dem folks down under seem to have a pretty good grip on both golf and life - they get my vote.
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George: of course that ought to factor in also. ;D
And Aussies are just such great people, well... that would have to weight heavily in one's vote.
That is, IF this is about more than just golf courses.
TH
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Tom,
Remember the old "three point must" system in boxing. Same theory holds for The Bachelor. One point each for face, figure and endowment with a one point deduction for, shall we say "witchiness." Simple.
Mike
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I can't believe I forgot about Ireland and Hawaii - obviously those will be factored into the final lists, as will an Ohio subsection of some sort. (And perhaps a Scottish highlands one, although I'm not convinced that Dornoch, Nairn, Brora and Skibo Castle are enough to give that selection any staying power whatsoever...)
Anyone think I should split up Northern California into "Monterey Peninsula" and "Greater San Francisco" regions, and if so, to which belongs Pasatiempo?
As I recall, the last time an exercise along these lines was attempted, a variety of factors were allowable in one's calculations. In this exercise, my preference is to ground the discussion exclusively in terms of golf course architecture. For example, weather should only be factored in when discussing the golf. Not that there's anything wrong with talking about other factors - I'm just aiming to do something a bit different this time.
As for the poster who suggested that we should fast-forward to the inevitable Monter(r)ey-Long Island final: for one, I'm not at all convinced that those will be the two finalists, but for two, to be honest I'm rather more interested as to who finishes eighth, ninth and tenth (and why) than who finishes first and second. Those sorts of calculations are far less obvious, to me, than the ones at the top, and therefore should be rather more interesting. (I thought about doing this like a college football poll or a baseball MVP vote instead of using the "Survivor" format...maybe that would be more appropriate? It would almost certainly produce different results...)
Cheers,
Darren
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Mike:
I buy that.
So did you pick Estella?
Watching the show - and I only saw the very first and last two episodes, thank God - she seemed to be the logical choice. But I would not have picked her from the very start...
TH
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Tom,
I don't bother with the names. I did pick the "winner."
Mike
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DK:
OK, it's just golf.
And Monterey can stand on its own - go ahead and give greater SF area Pasatiempo even.
I'm still betting that Mike H. is correct.
But you're right, 8-9-10 etc. will also be very interesting.
TH
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Darren
I think you need to do a bit more thinking in what one calls a "region." It's hardly fair to compare Fife with Japan or Canada, or to lump LA and Palm Springs together or even TPC-Sawgrass and Seminole.
Pick some sort of definition which combines a place and some criterion such as "golf within a 1-2 hour driving radius." If you do that you are both more honest to your concept and more likely to hone down the contenders to a reasonable number
And, rather than votes, how about an online auction! WE might even get JakaB back on the site!
PS--you forgot the northwest of England (Hoylake, Birkdale, Lytham, Formby, Hillside, etc.) and Gloucestershire (Painswick) and I'm sure some others. ;)
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Darren has raised an interesting question but has omitted some criteria. We all know about the wonderful golf in the areas mentioned, but can you play year round?
When I left Africa some forty years ago, I could play every day of the year with the exception of a few days when monsoon-like rains and thunder storms made it unsafe. Upon deciding to live in America I studied the golfing nirvanas and decided upon California, the weather being a huge factor. I know I can play on the Monterey Peninsula at least one day a week, year round. I can do the same in Melbourne and Hawaii. I don't think I would want to on Long Island, Scotland, England and the host of other sites mentioned.
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Bob:
That matters greatly to me, also. I'd never pick any US East coast or Midwest locale, for the exact same reason, and even the UK and Ireland get downgraded for such...
But for the purposes of this, I gather we are to assume the weather genie makes all things equal. How this effects the worth of the exercise, well... no comment!
TH
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And Monterey can stand on its own - go ahead and give greater SF area Pasatiempo even.
Give Monterey Pasatiempo which gives it Pebble, CPC, MPCC and Pasa ...
SF would then be SFGC, O Club, Cal Club and Lake Merced ... maybe even Meadow Club ...
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Mike:
Understood. So maybe the finals pit our two locals against each other?
I'll still take Monterey, btw. But not by all that much. ;D
TH
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Sorry for being a wise-acre :'(
I am convicted that one cannot beat the one-two punch of Pebble Beach and Cypress Point based on personal observation, or alternatively The National and Shinnecock based on faith unseen. Then again, I am not all that well-traveled. Why not use one-two punch, or top five within a ___ miles radius? As the crow flies, I would throw in The Old Course (out of respect, I refuse to use its acronym - kinda like Xmas) and North Berwick (Muirfield for you stuffy purests).
Regards,
Mike
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Highland Scotland is my winner.
Nairn
Dornoch
Elgin
Moray
Forres
Inverness
In addition to the above a new course is being built at Dalfaber by MacDonald Hotels. The course is designed by Dave Thomas design and constructed by McIntosh Plant. It runs through ancient forests, along side the River Spey and sits in the shadow of the Cairngorm Mountains. This will be one of the most spectacular and challenging courses I have ever seen.
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Understood. So maybe the finals pit our two locals against each other?
I'll still take Monterey, btw. But not by all that much. ;D
Those 2 in the finals would be great, it will go into a shootout (Go SCU Mens Soccer ...) and the tiebreaker will be Pacific Grove ...
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Bob:
That matters greatly to me, also. I'd never pick any US East coast or Midwest locale, for the exact same reason, and even the UK and Ireland get downgraded for such...
TH
Don't downgrade the UK too much; can't speak for Ireland. Yesterday I checked the weather in London and it was 52 - far better than the 45 with high winds here in the mid-Atlantic. SE England is playable all year - virtually no freezing - with the only limitation being light in mid-winter. The "fixtures" books for most clubs have events scheduled every day of the year. I'd say the winter weather is no worse than N. Cal.
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Craig:
Got it - thanks. Maybe it's all the Dickensian snow-covered scenes I've read and seen that give me the wrong impression...
TH
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You didn't forget Northern Idaho, did you?
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I played in shirtsleeves on Sunday in Fife, and can expect to be able to play almost everyday if you stick to the coastal courses. The daylight hours begin to pinch into playing time around now, but you get to play from 5am to 10pm in the summer. It's better winter golf than SF-Monterey, IMHO, which gets pretty boggy from Nov-Mar, in my experience. Sorry, Bob!
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If there's going to be any point to this exercise, weather has to be factored out -- or factored in, as in, "assumijng optimal weather conditions," rather than including the full range of seasons.
Otherwise, as much as I love Sandhills, what kind of a golfer is going to choose a 5-month season?
Living in the Twin Cities, I think you could quite seriously lay out a menu of Interlachen, Hazeltine, White Bear Yacht Club, Somerset, Woodhill, Minikahda, Spring Hill, StoneRidge, Troy Burne, The Wilds and a few other personal favorites and qualify for a slot in Darren's "Survivor" bracket -- but not if weather is an issue. Michigan, Ohio, Westchester County and several others might as well pack it in, too.
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A lot of talk going about regions with no-one focussing in on the eventual winner. Mr Huntley mentioned it in passing, but the Melbourne Sandbelt has to be the greatest golf region in the world, hands down. I guess it doesnt get any mention since most in here havent been lucky enough to go down there, but I was lucky enough to spend some time playing most courses there a few years back and every course is incredible and there are so many so close together. The weather is great, the people are great and the food and beer is great, all important ingredients when determining a "golf region".
No region can match up to these:
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Melbourne East
Kingston Heath
Metropolitan
Huntingdale
Commonwealth (while it last given a recent thread)
Woodlands
Victoria
Peninsula North
Peninsula South
Long Island
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DArren, this goes in the category of "no good deed goes unpunished". ::) You are two pages into this and we don't even have the rules or criteria down. That may take another 10pages. :P This reminds me of the ratings threads, all over the map (sort of a pun there). Your attempt to create the game is well intentioned and a way to while away the cold dark hours of winter for those of us not so well positioned like Monterey Penn., but a cacaphony from the peanut gallery will probably prevent you from actually completing the game.
Someone IM me when we actually start playing... ;D
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Golfing bliss, for me it has got to be in the States, west coast California, (well theres no east coast Calif is there?)
Fly into L.A. Quick 18 around Pebble, 18 around Spy, then another 18 around Cypress, then have a spot of lunch.
Reading some of the comments, it seems you have forgot to mention the courses in and around Liverpool u.k.
courses such as, Royal Lytham & St annes, Hillside, Southport & Ainsdale, Fleetwood, Hoylake, Birkdale. There is a great Golfing holiday to be had, and all these Great courses are no more than 45 miles apart.
At £20 per night b & b you cant go wrong ;)
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Guys, save the value judgements for later, OK? This topic is about parameters, not one's actual picks.
Re: the Liverpool area, I'd definitely considered that, but wasn't sure how to name it. ("Lancashire"?) I was waiting for better minds to inform me of it... ;)
RJ, I'm enjoying the jumble of ideas at the moment - I don't need a consensus at this instant. Does anyone else like Rich's auction idea? (Rich, how would that work, exactly?)
DK
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Hpembroke,
Everything factored in, quality and quantity of wonderful golf, affordability, weather, attitude of the clubs and their members, then the Melbourne Sandbelt beats out my beloved Monterey Peninsula.
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Bob, that hurts for I was just getting ready to chime in for the Monterey Pen. I will defer to you though. Also, availability of public golf or at least some level of access. Many can be a member of one club in an area, but few are members of 3 or 4 in the same area.
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Agreed re: Melbourne.
In a region with a one hour drive from one end to the other (sandbelt/Mornington Peninsula), the 15th best course would beat the 10th best course in any other region on the planet, hands down.
And including the private clubs, 10 out of the 15 would cost less than $US40 to play!
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Not to be rude, but ...
Well, to be rude: Can't you guys READ?
We haven't even figured out who's ON the island, and you're already kickin' 'em off!
Or am I the one who missed something?
DK II
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Mr Huntley,
I wholeheartedly agree with you and thank you for making that statement publically in comparison to your home region, quite a statement.
I feel once this Survivor thing gets going The Sandbelt may suffer an unfortunate fate due to the fact that not many have been there and will not be able to vouch for its quality and therfore will fall short purely based on a numbers game. Sad really. Similar to the latest GD rankings I suspect.
Mr Kelly,
All part of the fun and discussion. This is GCA, nothing makes sense.
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Shivas -- Agreed. There are few things I enjoy more than squeezing in those last few holes at 9:45 p.m. in late June.
The problem is, you can take that only so far. I'm sure our friends in Canada, Alaska, Iceland and Finland would trade a month or two of midnight golf for Monterey's 12 months of golf.
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How about Cabo in Mexico?
Cabo del Sol Ocean & Desert
Palmilla
ElDorado
Cabo Real
Querencia
All within minutes of each other.
Steve
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John V mentioned Pete Dye Golf Club - maybe there should be a "Virginias Mountain" region with PDGC, The Homestead - Cascades and The Greenbrier - Old White and Greenbrier Course.
Dye, Flynn, Macdonald and Raynor...not too bad.
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Darren, uumm am i a bit dim or something ??? Because i have lost the plot on this subject, are we doing a head to head straight knock-out, i.e. say St Andrews versus Muirfield? and the best course statisticaly in the area goes on to challenge another regeon? Am i a LAMA or what?
By the way Liverpool is in Merseyside, (Hoylake, Birkdale,)
Lancs, (the others.)
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It is too bad no one plays golf in Upstate New York, which presents a strong list of unknown gems.
A short list of Ross Courses:
OHCC (East and West)
Monroe
CC Rochester
CC Buffalo
BrookLea
Teugega
Chatauqua (spelling?)
Thendara
Mark Twain
Other Golden Age Classic Unknowns:
Park CC (Alison)
Wolfert's Roost (Tillie)
Yahnundasis (Travis)
Stafford (Travis)
Malone (Wilkinson)
Some Modern Gems:
Durand Eastman and Midvale (Trent Jones circa 1930)
Crag Burn (modern Jones)
Shennendoah (Rick Smith)
This beats out South Africa, Mexico and Michigan for sure.
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Mr. Lyon,
I resemble that remark :)
BTW - I'd include Bristol Harbour, Olde Kinderhook, Bellevue (Ross) Hiawatha Landing, Greystone & Ravewood also.
Where is Wolfert's Roost? Never heard of it.
How does Orchard Park stand up in the worls of Travis courses?
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John Foley:
Wolfert's Roost is in Albany, A Tillinghast which is relatively obscure. Some of his other Upstate courses include Niagra Falls, Bluff Point in Plattsburgh, Oswego and Binghamton CC.
As for Orchard Park, I am not familiar with the layout. Judging from the quality of his other upstate courses, I'm sure it is very good.
Also if you are including Greystone, I will have to add Cobblestone Creek to thelist of good Rochester private courses, even if it is a bit "housey" ;)
A few more golden age courses from the upstate:
Grover Cleveland Park Course (site of the 1912 U.S. Open!)
Leatherstocking (Emmet)
Sagamore (Ross)
Rip Van Winkle (Ross)
Irondequoit (Ross)
Locust Hill (Seymour Dunn)
Cavalry (Wilson)
Corning (Winton)
Tupper Lake (Ross)
Onondaga (Thompson and Wogan)
Glens Falls (Ross)
I have not played all of these course, but if there are any questions on the location, just fire away.
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Another area is the Mornington peninsula and whatever the name is to he west to include Barwon Head, etc.
Las Vegas
Second the addition of Baja/Cabo
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Pete,
The Mornington Peninsula includes:
The National (Ocean)
The National (Moonah)
The National (Old)
The Dunes
Moonah Links
Portsea
Sorrento
Flinders
The other side is known as the Bellarine Peninsula, and the only courses of note are Thirteenth Beach and Barwon Heads.
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JNC_Lyon -
I'm not sure your Upstate NY list cancels out the entire state of Michigan. Oakland Hills, Plum Hollow, Detroit Golf Club, Birmingham CC (all in the Detroit area) have hosted majors. Michigan has more courses than any other in the country. And upstate Lower Peninsula, Michigan (Gaylord, Traverse City, Cheboygan, etc.) is considered a top "golf destination" in the country.
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Gotta take the Scottish highlands. With weather no factor, January play is possible (by possible, I don't mean someone saying "I played once in January, it was 41 degrees with 30 mph winds and a bit of rain, but I was fine", no thanks!) And I'm going to assume that you are including pretty much everything north of Carnoustie, so that's a lot of courses, all pretty eglitarian about playing when compared to the exclusivity of the better courses (or are we going to assume that if we pick the Georgia region, we can play ANGC 30 times a year if we want?) That problem is also the big knock on East Lothian since it takes Muirfield out of the picture (unless it is not too hard to become a member at North Berwick or Gullane and they do reciprocation)
Best of all, its a less popular region with tourists, so you wouldn't have to deal with all us filthy yanks coming over and screwing up the joint. I'd probably take Fife otherwise, but while I loved visiting St. Andrews, I think I'd get sick of the place eventually if I had to live there with all the tourists. Or we are optimizing out the annoying-tourist factor along with the weather and membership issues? ;D
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Shivas, I just returned from the land of monterey cypress trees mixed in with a few very good golf courses. December is just fine for golf.
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What about us in Texas? Houston(Champions and Whispering Pines) and Dallas/Fort Worth(Colonial, DAC, Dallas National)
How about Memphis also?(Colonial CC South, Memphis CC, Ridgeway, home of the PGA champion Shaun Micheel)?
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cwade,
No mention of Spring Creek Ranch in Memphis? For a new course, it remains under the radar screen.
Also, any idea how much of Lankford's original work remains at Chickasaw CC?
No mention of Overton Park ;) Does it still have the dogleg par three?
Thanks for not mentioning TPC Southwind (ugh!)
Sentenced to golf in Tennessee, I'd have to go with Chattanooga: The Honors, Black Creek, Lookout Mountain, Bear Trace and Chattanooga CC. Not to mention a road trip to Knoxville's Holston Hills (followed by a deli from Sam & Andy's and the purchase of Big Orange garb at the campus book store).
Mike
Homeboy