Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bernie Bell on December 12, 2022, 01:27:57 PM
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Trolling headline but interesting article.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/golf-might-not-survive-the-21st-century-thanks-to-climate-change
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Thanks for sharing.
Golfs image isn’t what it could/should be. Too much lush and green on TV and in photos etc isn’t helping irrespective of any good deeds and work being done behind the scenes.
8 billion people in the World these days. 100 yrs ago it was about 2 billion. Worth considering this in relation to golfs existing footprint and whether moving forward golfs footprint really ought to be smaller.
Atb
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I can't help feeling that the game/community of golf needs to be taking a far more radical approach to its environmental impact, especially water. I feel like we're going to pay for it long term if we don't. All we seem to do is point out the worse offenders and say at least we're not them! I have a sinking feeling that approach will not stand us in good stead when the hard decisions start needing to be made.
I'd love to hear some truly radical ideas if anyone has them.
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This is a pretty good summation of what's going on in the West, safe to say its not encouraging. A lot of similarities to what i've been seeing in Utah with not only no will to reign in growth, but Southern Utah wants to build a new pipeline to the Colorado to further tap an already over-drawn river. Its bonkers.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona-rio-verde-foothills-scottsdale-water-hauling-access/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona-rio-verde-foothills-scottsdale-water-hauling-access/)
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If we had to cut water usage by the game of golf worldwide by 50% how should we go about it?
I mean, we could close about half the courses in the world using a Thanos-like snap. (actually this might be essentially what ends up happening if we do nothing more than we currently are)
How about we use new cultivars which allow a nice fairway surface at 2-3x the current height of cut for fairways and greens rolling 5? I don't know, I'm curious how it could be done.
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I have a son who is graduating from college this spring as a bio major with an environmental studies minor. He is considering law school, and I gave him a piece of advice someone gave me 25 years ago that I chose to ignore when I was heading to law school: study water rights law.
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The closer is tasty.
"“The bigger question isn’t whether golf belongs in Phoenix,” he said. “The bigger question is whether Phoenix belongs there.”
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Eliminate overseeding. Please.
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The closer is tasty.
"“The bigger question isn’t whether golf belongs in Phoenix,” he said. “The bigger question is whether Phoenix belongs there.”
It's a fair enough question to ask, but it's moot now. It is there. The government will undertake insane water projects before it ever considers depopulating the country's fifth-biggest city. Golf's place is far less assured, so I'm still wondering what sufficiently radical ideas people have to help ensure it's survival in these places.
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In general and in some parts of the World in particular golfs footprint is excessive. Golf uses too much space. There is also the standards and expectations of course conditioning in relation to where golf is played to consider but let’s leave that aspect aside for just now.
The quickest way for golf to have a smaller footprint is to rollback the ball.
This will permit the game to continue in essentially the same way as at present but using less land, less water and less other inputs.
The ball manufacturers mightn’t like it (so bloody what!) but the future of a game that provides so much enjoyment, entertainment, social and health benefits, employment etc to so many people shouldn’t be adversely impacted by the selfishness of the manufacturers.
The game is more important than the manufacturers.
Atb
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In general and in some parts of the World in particular golfs footprint is excessive. Golf uses too much space. There is also the standards and expectations of course conditioning in relation to where golf is played to consider but let’s leave that aspect aside for just now.
The quickest way for golf to have a smaller footprint is to rollback the ball.
This will permit the game to continue in essentially the same way as at present but using less land, less water and less other inputs.
The ball manufacturers mightn’t like it (so bloody what!) but the future of a game that provides so much enjoyment, entertainment, social and health benefits, employment etc to so many people shouldn’t be adversely impacted by the selfishness of the manufacturers.
The game is more important than the manufacturers.
Atb
I agree it's a good idea, but you'll have to explain the process better. As far as I can see, rolling the ball back only enables a smaller footprint. Additionally, I'm sceptical at how much smaller the footprint will be. I'm not dismissing the idea, I'm just asking for more information.
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golf = 2 million acres in USA agriculture= 900 million acres in USA Golf and water sells papers ...
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This (a link from the original post's link) was a pretty interesting report.
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/08/01/arizona-golf-courses-more-water-than-allotted/
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Most ppl here are well aware of my feelings on the future if golf and water and courses being built in deserts. I have what many would call a “doom and gloom” outlook on golf. I love the turfgrass and golf industry with all my heart, but many decisions were made long ago without the thought of the future consequences.
Water development in the west (a desert), which lead to city development (Phoenix et al) and later golf development, is perceived by many as the greatest achievement in American history. The trend in water shortages, increased temperatures and decreased rainfall, historical ecology of deserts, and population growth in these states suggest that water development in deserts may be Americas biggest folly.
Golf, imho is in big trouble. We may not see it any any of our lifetimes, but inevitably it will be bankrupt in desert climates.
Idk the answer to stop the bleeding other than quit building golf courses in deserts. It is a very complex issue that will require far more than one solution. No more overseeding is a good first step, but that’s honestly just just a band aid on top of a band aid.
This is not sustainable anyway you may want to frame it. When the rubber meets the road and hard decisions need to made, golf is first on the chopping block. Courses east of the Miss River look to be free and clear at the moment, but moving west is another story.
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Golf, imho is in big trouble...
Thanks for responding. Lots of points worth talking about, it's hard to decide where to start.
First thing I'm curious about is whether there is any level of reduction in water usage that could make golf reasonably sustainable in the desert? Even if conditions would be totally foreign to the current crop of golfers.
Second would be the same question, but for a place like southern California (and beyond that, any other quite dry areas).
I want to get past the bandaid on a bandaid stuff. I'm curious especially with conditioning/setup. If the standard for fairway HOC was 1"+ or so and an analogous change to greens, could it make a difference, either in the desert or other slightly less dry areas? I am just trying to get an idea of the attitude adjustment needed among golfers. I don't have any knowledge, just a creeping suspicion that golf will get hit hard by this. Hopefully this stuff makes sense.
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I can't help feeling that the game/community of golf needs to be taking a far more radical approach to its environmental impact, especially water. I feel like we're going to pay for it long term if we don't. All we seem to do is point out the worse offenders and say at least we're not them! I have a sinking feeling that approach will not stand us in good stead when the hard decisions start needing to be made.
Yes, quite. "We aren't as bad as agriculture" is NOT a winning argument for golf. Food is essential, golf isn't.
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I agree it's a good idea, but you'll have to explain the process better. As far as I can see, rolling the ball back only enables a smaller footprint. Additionally, I'm sceptical at how much smaller the footprint will be. I'm not dismissing the idea, I'm just asking for more information.
You’ve got to start somewhere and rolling back the ball to achieve a smaller or much smaller golf footprint would be a simple way to start. Simple that is if the R&A/USGA/ball manufacturers could be convinced or pressurised into doing their bit. Not easy admittedly but if the alternative is no or less golf.
Others methods could be introduced or introduced as and when and if necessary but in particular for water related aspects, remembering that golf is an international game and that all sorts of national governments and regional authorities and numerous other bodies and organisations all with vested interests and priorities and under various political pressures would be involved, would likely be far more complex to introduce in comparison to rolling back the ball. Hell, the ball manufacturers should still sell the same number of balls irrespective of a rollback coz players loose so damn many!
Atb
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Are there any courses in the Phoenix/Tucson area that don't overseed, or do so in a more minimal way?
If so, I'll play them if possible and tell the management that I'm supporting them because of their overseed policy.
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First thing I'm curious about is whether there is any level of reduction in water usage that could make golf reasonably sustainable in the desert? Even if conditions would be totally foreign to the current crop of golfers.
Second would be the same question, but for a place like southern California (and beyond that, any other quite dry areas).
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/mesa/no-grass-valley-golf-course-offers-unique-challenge
https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/what-its-play-golf-without-grass
There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.
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First thing I'm curious about is whether there is any level of reduction in water usage that could make golf reasonably sustainable in the desert? Even if conditions would be totally foreign to the current crop of golfers.
Second would be the same question, but for a place like southern California (and beyond that, any other quite dry areas).
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/mesa/no-grass-valley-golf-course-offers-unique-challenge (https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/mesa/no-grass-valley-golf-course-offers-unique-challenge)
https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/what-its-play-golf-without-grass (https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/what-its-play-golf-without-grass)
There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.
I'd probably take a pass on a grassless course as well. What I'm trying to determine is what can be done short of that. What about a pretty radical adjustment to conditioning? Would you accept fairways that were more like what is currently a first cut of rough? Certainly there are specific cultivars that wouldn't work at that length, but changes could be made there as well. Or vastly slower greens or any number of things I'm not thinking of.
It may be that there is no way to save golf in a desert long-term, but there are plenty of places that are dry, short of actual desert where golf can be saved (like southern California) or anywhere with frequent drought-like conditions. Like I said, it feels like we aren't taking the possibility seriously when we really should be.
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Small Modular Nuclear Reactor (SMR) desalination would solve most, if not all the global water issues. 1,500 globally at $1B each would solve our global water issues by desalinating 500 trillion gallons of seawater/year (though we might drain the oceans). Technology does not standstill.
Do you really use water or are you just borrowing it? Google says that there is a finite amount of water on earth that does not change.
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Eliminate overseeding. Please.
Seconded. That would be a great start. But those people with $$$ in Arizona aren't "down with brown".
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Are there any courses in the Phoenix/Tucson area that don't overseed, or do so in a more minimal way?
If so, I'll play them if possible and tell the management that I'm supporting them because of their overseed policy.
Desert Forest used to be conscientious objectors on that score. [Or maybe they just didn't have enough water?]
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There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.
I played a bunch of courses in Asia where the fairways were unirrigated, and the turf was spotty depending on the season. The golf was still fun, but you wouldn't pay a lot of money for it. That's why no one considers the solution; all of those golf courses spent $2.5m on an irrigation system and the economics are all predicated on keeping the hamster wheel spinning.
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Mid Pines needs to stop with it. You'd think that they would follow #2's lead on that.
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There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.
I played a bunch of courses in Asia where the fairways were unirrigated, and the turf was spotty depending on the season. The golf was still fun, but you wouldn't pay a lot of money for it. That's why no one considers the solution; all of those golf courses spent $2.5m on an irrigation system and the economics are all predicated on keeping the hamster wheel spinning.
Tom,
Think most of your work in Aust and NZ has been done in areas where water wasn't so much of an issue.
Given the timing of your Concord work, I presume you had to address water sustainability in the design, most clubs I know have it as at least a top 3 priority as the cost of water in Sydney is massive if you can't harvest it (via bores or run off).
Maybe overseeding happens out here however if it's done I'm not sure where.
Any Saffers here, what happened to golf in Cape Town when the drought of a few years ago was at its height.
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MKrohn:
Water is an issue almost everywhere in Australia, though maybe not as much in Tasmania. All of the Sandbelt clubs have had to scrape around to find enough water to sustain themselves. And yes, Concord, too, along with others in Sydney.
And though it's rainy by Australian standards, Tara Iti and Te Arai have a limited local water supply, to the point that they are thinking about oversewing the fairways at Te Arai with couch grass and letting it be dormant in winter, because that's less annual water use than fescue, which requires some water year-round.
I'm not sure how droughty Cape Kidnappers is, but it had its own water issues . . . all of the water for the golf course is collected at the bottom of the hill and pumped up the driveway to a reservoir at the top. The pipeline and the entrance road, combined, cost more to construct than the golf course.
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
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Mr. Doak,
As an aside, you no doubt aware of the current state of the Rawls course and the cost of water in West Texas. What's the solution?
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
I have a turfgrass degree and have probably one of the shittiest looking lawns on the block.
A) It's a waste of time
B) It's a waste of money
C) I have a 42" diameter hickory and a 24" diameter red oak that shade most of the front lawn and suck out most of the water out of the soil profile.
It's grass. Who cares?
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
I never watered, weeded or treated my back lawn. I cut it short...that's it. When the daisies and buttercups came up I cut around them. Most years I daisies had all year long. My take has always been that grass is just another type of weed.
Ciao
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
I have a turfgrass degree and have probably one of the shittiest looking lawns on the block.
A) It's a waste of time
B) It's a waste of money
C) I have a 42" diameter hickory and a 24" diameter red oak that shade most of the front lawn and suck out most of the water out of the soil profile.
It's grass. Who cares?
Totally cool your choice to look shitty. I wouldn't be cool with it if I was your neighbor, but then it's my choice to move.
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It would still be cool to hear from people either:
a. ideas to save a lot of water
or
b. whether you'd accept a pretty radical change to conditioning (i.e. 2-3x longer fairway turf or much slower greens)
We've heard some, but would love to hear more.
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.
Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.
Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.
Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."
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8)
Buck , I'm sure desalinization is a wave of the future . Perhaps it would help with management of the sea level at some point in time.
It has always surprised me that more efficient ways to do this weren't available. Don't know if it's corporate greed by the existing utilities or really that hard.
As one who would love to see golf courses firmer and faster, at least in the fairway, a little brown turf wouldn't curtail any of my play!
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.
Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.
Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."
What exactly is “shitty” about it?
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It would still be cool to hear from people either:
a. ideas to save a lot of water
or
b. whether you'd accept a pretty radical change to conditioning (i.e. 2-3x longer fairway turf or much slower greens)
We've heard some, but would love to hear more.
I would happily accept higher fairways heights.
Ciao
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8)
When it comes to turf beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Most of us here in the USA don't accept hard and fast. Can't believe how many of our customers /fellow golfers want to see greens that are more like dart boards.
But like anything if more of the leaders in the industry promoted this with real publicity and $$$'s we could make this the norm in time. Just think how many burnt out muni's would be "in vogue"."
Spend the money on the greens
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As a superintendent, it would be my opinion that the average golf course could reduce water by 50% or more, without any major issue for the turf. Of course it would be 50% of the right amount for that golf course. 50% is also an average. Some courses are already using the minimum amount, others much more than the minimum. The way I would probably put it, is that most courses have a good deal of safety built into their water use and they are happy to use that buffer, because no one has told them they cannot.
My purpose isn't to be critical of colleagues; in most cases, they are doing what is required of them by those to whom they report. At the same time, if challenged to use less, I'm certain nearly everyone would be able to do so.
The other issue that needs to be solved and its much more difficult than simply reducing water use on an existing course--making sure courses are growing the right grass for their location. Not every course is able to change their grass. Nearly every course is able to use less water.
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8)
Chris is so right about water usage. Again it would be great if some of the "great" courses promoted firm and fast and not necessarily green and lush. Never forgot that great US Amateur final where Buddy Marucci from Philly took Tiger to the 36th hole at Newport CC, one of the last times a tournament like this was played on a course with little or no irrigation. It was so much fun watching the ball rolling and rolling all over the place. Tiger hit a couple shots late in the round which showed how special his talent was. But of course he won! Now that was firm and fast for sure.
Almost twenty years ago in at the start of a two year drought all the courses in our area were asked to voluntary limit our water use. Some of us complied by really squeezing the bottle and we really concentrated on greens , surrounds and a little for tees and fairways. Some courses didn't help the cause of conservation and just watered as usual. too much of course. The drought continued and NJ imposed strict limitations of usage the next year. To our surprise ( my bad for not seeing it coming ) they gave everyone half of their usage from the previous year punishing all of us who had tried hard to be stewards. Thankfully we had a friend at DEP who helped illuminate the cognoscenti in the halls of government right before we lost all our turf they gave us half our normal allocation.
Makes you wonder?
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Archie, the phenomenon you mentioned is exactly why I think a more concerted effort is needed. You did the right thing by reducing usage voluntarily, but since it was voluntary, no surprise there were those who didn't participate. And of course everyone got punished the next time, it's incredibly predictable.
It sounds like whole regions are going to have to make big cuts (20% was mentioned in some articles) Well, it won't be across the board. Hospitals and agriculture probably won't have to cut much, so other places (like golf or lawns) are going to have to make up the difference. I have a feeling this will be just the start.
Chris, you mention some pretty significant slack in the system. You say cuts of 50% (on average) could be made with no significant problems for the turf. I'm curious whether this really applies in the desert as well. I'm also super curious what the saving could be if we significantly raised the HOC in fairways and maybe even greens as well as accepting slightly browner-looking conditions?
I feel like if it isn't a concerted effort, it will play out everywhere just like it did in Archie's example. Some making an effort, some not, and then everyone gets hammered badly later. Am I wrong to be thinking this way?
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I would happily accept higher fairways heights.
Ciao
I would too. In fact, at my skill level, my average score might go down, at least compared with better players.
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Watering is an expense; even if you have drilled on-site wells with enough daily allocation permitted to keep your facility ANGC green in the toughest of summer conditions. Well pumps typically run on electric; and unless you have solar or on-site wind turbines, electric isn't free.
if you have to purchase either potable or reclaimed water for irrigation, the cost of irrigation is an even more significant portion of your annual operating budget. Who wouldn't want to save money based on the above costs?
Well, the simple bugs & bunnies tree hugging response is to not water golf courses during the time of year where where is a more valued commodity, like a residential lawn. My lawn (and attached residence) pay real estate taxes if the turf is green, brown or dirt. A golf course, a taxed commercial venture tax, generates tax income sales of greens fees, balls, gloves, food beverages, etc. Altering significantly the delivery of a private good and services supplier isn't healthy for the long term tax rate base of a community, especially if that user of water pre-existed most of the newer residential development.
I'm all for brown/green fast & firm; water logged turf isn't what the game is about. Most locations, even those not in an arid climate, require irrigation to cool the turf down on hot days so it can survive. Let's just be logical on how we discuss this.
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.
Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.
Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."
What exactly is “shitty” about it?
Exactly this kind of shit:
To have a well maintained lawn is a sign to others that you have the time and/or the money to support this attraction. It signifies that you care about belonging and want others to see that you are like them.
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I am reminded of Monty Pythons Yorkershiremen sketch ……. “..luxuary, …”
Once upon a time folks didn’t have lawns at all let alone lawns to be watered to look nice and show-off the neighbourhood.
Instead they had gardens where they grew vegetables for the pot and for the table.
In some parts of the World they still do.
Atb
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.
Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.
Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."
A yard with grass can be much more beautiful than one with grass.
In 1989 my wife and I bought a house in the center of Portland, OR. After messing around with a crappy looking lawn, my wife said she wanted to tear it out and plant flowers. I was good with that as it meant I didn’t have to mow anymore.
So, we replaced the grass with plants, flowers and stone walkways. We put in drip irrigation so we didn’t use much water. It looked beautiful.
Every spring when the tulips and other flowers bloomed, we had people knock on our door and ask if they could take pictures of their kids in our garden.
When Portland had a drought, they cut back on lawn watering and our next door neighbor who had a beautiful lawn almost cried while his lawn turned brown and out garden looked perfect.
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"The American Obsession with Lawns"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.
Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.
Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.
Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."
A yard with grass can be much more beautiful than one with grass.
In 1989 my wife and I bought a house in the center of Portland, OR. After messing around with a crappy looking lawn, my wife said she wanted to tear it out and plant flowers. I was good with that as it meant I didn’t have to mow anymore.
So, we replaced the grass with plants, flowers and stone walkways. We put in drip irrigation so we didn’t use much water. It looked beautiful.
Every spring when the tulips and other flowers bloomed, we had people knock on our door and ask if they could take pictures of their kids in our garden.
When Portland had a drought, they cut back on lawn watering and our next door neighbor who had a beautiful lawn almost cried while his lawn turned brown and out garden looked perfect.
No doubt. For the record, I'm in AZ, have artificial turf, and zero grass. It looks perfect all the time.
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It would still be cool to hear from people either:
a. ideas to save a lot of water
or
b. whether you'd accept a pretty radical change to conditioning (i.e. 2-3x longer fairway turf or much slower greens)
We've heard some, but would love to hear more.
I would happily accept higher fairways heights.
Ciao
win, win ,win
More turf to get a club on
more firmness to the bounce
less pure grass "speed: so contours are embraced not avoided
better players would have to judge fliers precisely whenwetter/rainier occur, rather than poorer players being forced to attempt to compress the ball with minimal turf exposed on soft moist super short turf
Of course no one ever got a raise by lowering a budget....
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Of course no one ever got a raise by lowering a budget....
Hmmmm, sounds familiar….😁
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Of course no one ever got a raise by lowering a budget....
If only this were also true in the corporate world....
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win, win ,win
More turf to get a club on
more firmness to the bounce
less pure grass "speed: so contours are embraced not avoided
You're getting at my secondary point. The game would be better, more fun with these conditions while being much more frugal with water and probably costing everyone a lot less. Big contours without the divot farms everyone dislikes and so on. But I believe it can't happen without concerted effort, both from a water-saving perspective and from a conditioning perspective. I feel like everyone needs to jump at once so to speak.
That said, I'm still curious what kind of savings of water there could be if we take up the slack in the system that Chris mentioned, plus made a major play toward 1"+ fairways and slower greens and dry/brownish aesthetic.
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win, win ,win
More turf to get a club on
more firmness to the bounce
less pure grass "speed: so contours are embraced not avoided
You're getting at my secondary point. The game would be better, more fun with these conditions while being much more frugal with water and probably costing everyone a lot less. Big contours without the divot farms everyone dislikes and so on. But I believe it can't happen without concerted effort, both from a water-saving perspective and from a conditioning perspective. I feel like everyone needs to jump at once so to speak.
That said, I'm still curious what kind of savings of water there could be if we take up the slack in the system that Chris mentioned, plus made a major play toward 1"+ fairways and slower greens and dry/brownish aesthetic.
Be interesting to get an appreciation of the extent water usage and mowing regime will change if a course with regularly used fairway irrigation were to increase their fairway HoC from current height to 1”+?
It would additionally be interesting what the water usage and mowing regime situation would be for any ‘manicured rough’ areas that are regularly irrigated too, like green surrounds and collars around bunkers.
Atb
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win, win ,win
More turf to get a club on
more firmness to the bounce
less pure grass "speed: so contours are embraced not avoided
You're getting at my secondary point. The game would be better, more fun with these conditions while being much more frugal with water and probably costing everyone a lot less. Big contours without the divot farms everyone dislikes and so on. But I believe it can't happen without concerted effort, both from a water-saving perspective and from a conditioning perspective. I feel like everyone needs to jump at once so to speak.
That said, I'm still curious what kind of savings of water there could be if we take up the slack in the system that Chris mentioned, plus made a major play toward 1"+ fairways and slower greens and dry/brownish aesthetic.
Be interesting to get an appreciation of the extent water usage and mowing regime will change if a course with regularly used fairway irrigation were to increase their fairway HoC from current height to 1”+?
It would additionally be interesting what the water usage and mowing regime situation would be for any ‘manicured rough’ areas that are regularly irrigated too, like green surrounds and collars around bunkers.
Atb
I very much would like to know this stuff too Thomas. If there is already a large slack amount in the system, it feels like we could really reduce water usage by a lot which would make golf a much more palatable partner for cities and regions. What I'm worried about in five or ten years' time is various governments cutting off the majority of water for this kind of thing virtually overnight. I would imagine it would be way easier to plan for a 50%+ reduction with years of planning rather than abruptly.
This is where the supers or turfgrass professionals can let us know what we're looking at and be a reality check.
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I'll bump this in hopes of maybe someone being able to weigh in on the potential water savings for a significant height of cut increase and general change in conditioning.
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Phoenix is actually quite efficient as a location to dwell. Our water is primarily from the Colorado River and snow melt from our 6,000 ft. Alpine mountains. Most people fail “Arizona Geography”.
And — In golf we primarily BORROW water. Thanks Buck for reminding us of this.
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Phoenix is actually quite efficient as a location to dwell. Our water is primarily from the Colorado River and snow melt from our 6,000 ft. Alpine mountains. Most people fail “Arizona Geography”.
And — In golf we primarily BORROW water. Thanks Buck for reminding us of this.
I don't get what you're saying here Forrest, would you elaborate?
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Phoenix, and a predominance of Arizona, enjoys a very efficient energy use index and does not rely on the seasonal use of fossil fuels that many large cities rely on across the U.S. We operate the largest nuclear power plant in the U.S., providing more power to neighboring states than to our own. I already noted water use — which is NOT predominantly ground water, but surface water (rivers and snow melt). Surface water is THE MOST EFFICIENT of all water resources, and in Arizona it has been managed since the early 1900s through dams, reservoirs and canals. None of this discussion takes into account recycled water, which is another hallmark of how we manage water in Arizona.
The Hohokam People first dwelled here in 300 A.D., and their layout of clever canals remain even today. Phoenix is among a very few U.S. metropolitan areas that have been in continuous habitation for more than 1,700 years. That does not happen by "accident" or "whim". It happens because it continually — through many ages, including the Industrial Revolution — remains an efficient place for people to inhabit.
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Fair enough, but as Phoenix has access to less water, the golf courses will surely have less. What I'm curious about is how best to deal with that from a golf perspective. What would significantly raising the height of cut do to water consumption? Would you personally mind playing on, say, 1 inch fairways?
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The solution to more growth in Phoenix is:
1. Return to ground water
2. Advances in "toilet to tap" technology
3. Pump water from the Sea of Cortez
Until then, golf has done a great job of reducing water. Agriculture has NOT. My hunch is that golf will continue to use less (turf reduction, turf varieties, polymers, better coverage, and management...such as not overseeding, etc.)
Adam Lawrence points out that "golf is not essential" ... until, of course, you consider the millions of jobs across the world that involve golf as a business. Then, golf becomes essential...at least to particular families.
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Forrest,
I'm not so sure how wise it is for Arizona to continue to rely on water from an already over-allocated Colorado. 2023 brought a 20%+ cut to its delivery...on top of what it's lost in recent years, and the cuts most certainly will continue.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2022/08/16/federal-officials-impose-cuts-colorado-river/10311378002/ (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2022/08/16/federal-officials-impose-cuts-colorado-river/10311378002/)
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The Colorado River is only ONE source for Phoenix, and a majority of that is used by agriculture and domestic. We don't "rely solely on Colorado River water", and never have. The easterly watershed (mountains and canals) is the other primary source besides recycled water. Colorado River water allotment to Phoenix was negotiated by John McCain, and has been constant expect for the portions we've given away during the past 20+ years.
Desalination is the solution to most all water issues, even inland where brackish water can be treated. I predict Phoenix will continue to pioneer innovative water solutions, as we have since the Hohokam age. The pipeline from Peñasco, MX to Phoenix is a bold prediction — but I'll make it here based on my knowledge of how Arizona water works.
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Link to a story about a bill currently in the works in Utah..
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bill-that-would-publicize-how-much-water-golf-courses-use-meets-opposition/ar-AA16QFo6?cvid=63d527c11efd4ac89a3157877cb40036
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I'll bump this in hopes of maybe someone being able to weigh in on the potential water savings for a significant height of cut increase and general change in conditioning.
Height of cut and water requirements arent necessarily a direct correlation. Higher height of cut does not automatically equate to a reduction in water.
Growth rates, plant transpiration and environmental factors such as shade, wind exposure etc all play a part.
Higher cut grass can use more water
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LA Times Article today.
Why desert golf courses and artificial lakes remain untouched by the Colorado River crisis (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/why-desert-golf-courses-and-artificial-lakes-remain-untouched-by-the-colorado-river-crisis/ar-AA16S2zT?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=c1b393d7ac634102b2eea5e45477dbe9)
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I'll bump this in hopes of maybe someone being able to weigh in on the potential water savings for a significant height of cut increase and general change in conditioning.
Height of cut and water requirements arent necessarily a direct correlation. Higher height of cut does not automatically equate to a reduction in water.
Growth rates, plant transpiration and environmental factors such as shade, wind exposure etc all play a part.
Higher cut grass can use more water
I believe that it can be the case, and that the opposite also can be the case. I feel like the point is to talk about reducing water usage, what could help a major reduction?
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Thanks for the links Buck and Kalen. I gotta say, I don’t think golf’s ostensible allies in those stories are doing the game any favors. In fact, if it was an 80’s movie, I’d say they are clearly setting up golf to take the fall in the third act. The call is coming from inside the house!
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I'll bump this in hopes of maybe someone being able to weigh in on the potential water savings for a significant height of cut increase and general change in conditioning.
Height of cut and water requirements arent necessarily a direct correlation. Higher height of cut does not automatically equate to a reduction in water.
Growth rates, plant transpiration and environmental factors such as shade, wind exposure etc all play a part.
Higher cut grass can use more water
I believe that it can be the case, and that the opposite also can be the case. I feel like the point is to talk about reducing water usage, what could help a major reduction?
Grass selection is a big consideration. As i mentioned also, grass growing too fast will consume more water. Reigning in growth has many benefits from nutrient use to organic matter production.
Honestly, if you want to use less water, apply less. There will be discomfort, the level of such will be dependent what a membership can tolerate.
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Grass selection is a big consideration. As i mentioned also, grass growing too fast will consume more water. Reigning in growth has many benefits from nutrient use to organic matter production.
Honestly, if you want to use less water, apply less. There will be discomfort, the level of such will be dependent what a membership can tolerate.
These seem like valid suggestions. I just want to comment on the last one. As an ordinary player, people like me have been told that isn't possible. True or not, that's what we've been told. It's this piecemeal way of communicating that gets frustrating. As we've seen in this thread and others, a lot of us are willing to make (or accept) changes in order to put the game in a better standing, but we need real ideas that we can get behind.
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Phoenix is actually quite efficient as a location to dwell. Our water is primarily from the Colorado River and snow melt from our 6,000 ft. Alpine mountains. Most people fail “Arizona Geography”.
And — In golf we primarily BORROW water. Thanks Buck for reminding us of this.
Forrest,
Any way to know what percentage of water used in PHX and TUS comes from Arizona’s mountains vs other states’ mountains? I’d be quite surprised if the alpine watersheds in AZ supplied even a quarter of the water used in the valley vs what’s flowing from north and east of the state.
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Grass selection is a big consideration. As i mentioned also, grass growing too fast will consume more water. Reigning in growth has many benefits from nutrient use to organic matter production.
Honestly, if you want to use less water, apply less. There will be discomfort, the level of such will be dependent what a membership can tolerate.
These seem like valid suggestions. I just want to comment on the last one. As an ordinary player, people like me have been told that isn't possible. True or not, that's what we've been told. It's this piecemeal way of communicating that gets frustrating. As we've seen in this thread and others, a lot of us are willing to make (or accept) changes in order to put the game in a better standing, but we need real ideas that we can get behind.
Charlie
This is far from the best platform to have a discussion about water usage. Too many people will read what gets written and then think it translates to their specific situation. Well meaning golf architecture junkies are a growing and somewhat troubling demographic when it comes to course maintenance ;D
I will go out on a limb though and use an architecture based example:
Pinehurst number 2 completed a large scale renovation/restoration of the course. One of the strongly communicated benefits was the significant water reduction that was achieved. 1100 heads reduced to 450 (i dont recall the exact number) Removal of irrigation from areas of rough, revegetation etc
The unfortunate side effect of the project and messaging was that it drew a connection between the renovation and how it saved so much water. Certainly they did reduce water use significantly but this implied cause and effect points the industry towards the renovation being necessary to have achieved these results. At multiples of millions it cost to renovate, people believe that this is the path to a water saving solution.
Sprinkler heads dont run themselves (yet!). It requires someone to tell them when to turn on and how long for. A course with irrigated rough could simply reduce running times or even turn those heads off saving significant volumes of water. You do not need to rebuild a golf course to apply less water.
If you want to discuss water more, please PM me and i will happily chat about it over email.
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Phoenix is actually quite efficient as a location to dwell. Our water is primarily from the Colorado River and snow melt from our 6,000 ft. Alpine mountains. Most people fail “Arizona Geography”.
And — In golf we primarily BORROW water. Thanks Buck for reminding us of this.
Forrest,
Any way to know what percentage of water used in PHX and TUS comes from Arizona’s mountains vs other states’ mountains? I’d be quite surprised if the alpine watersheds in AZ supplied even a quarter of the water used in the valley vs what’s flowing from north and east of the state.
From a chemistry perspective, you could tag snow/snowmelt with certain innocuous substances: substance #1 from mountain region #1, and so on and so forth. Then you measure the proportion of those tags in what gets applied to a golf course. It would be a fairly pricey project, but something a university or government agency might want to take up.
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I see no reason why we shouldn't be building freshwater pipelines. Other countries do it and they are much easier than oil/gas pipelines.
The other half of the coin is getting golfers to find appeal in less lush conditions. I don't see that happening in the US...
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Phoenix is actually quite efficient as a location to dwell. Our water is primarily from the Colorado River and snow melt from our 6,000 ft. Alpine mountains. Most people fail “Arizona Geography”.
And — In golf we primarily BORROW water. Thanks Buck for reminding us of this.
Forrest,
Any way to know what percentage of water used in PHX and TUS comes from Arizona’s mountains vs other states’ mountains? I’d be quite surprised if the alpine watersheds in AZ supplied even a quarter of the water used in the valley vs what’s flowing from north and east of the state.
Doesn't Phoenix have specific water supply areas. If I recall correctly the north side of Phoenix is supplied by the Colorado. Much of the remaining valley is supplied by the Verde via Salt (reservoirs). It is going to require a significant infrastructure project to move the Salt-Verde water to northern parts of area. Of course, if the drought escalates, the Salt supply is in danger. Assuming nothing good or bad radically changes, I think the bottom line is valley has enough water to see out my life.
Ciao
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6 Colorado River states submit a plan to cut water use, but California says 'no deal'
Late last year, the federal government asked the seven states that share the Colorado River’s water to submit a plan by the end of January to rapidly cut their use of water or face mandatory cuts. Six of them found a consensus proposal and submitted their idea on Tuesday. (https://www.snwa.com/assets/pdf/seis-letter.pdf)The seventh — California — is an ominous exclusion, given that it is the largest water user on the river and could thwart efforts to preserve the system if it presses its rights in court.
Read more:
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2023/01/31/colorado-river-states-minus-california-pitch-conservation-plan/69859286007/ (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2023/01/31/colorado-river-states-minus-california-pitch-conservation-plan/69859286007/)