Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Cliff Hamm on November 30, 2022, 10:12:54 AM
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Tiger Woods has withdrawn from the Hero. He plans to play the Match and PNC as carts are allowed. In his words, "I can hit the golf ball and hit whatever shot you want. I just can't walk."
He is clearly disabled under ADA and under the Casey Martin ruling should be entitled to a cart. I suspect he has given it some thought and chosen not to request the use of a cart.
The PGA Tour should offer him one, as should the Majors. Golf needs him and he is missed. So, should he be allowed the use of a cart?
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Pretty sure even though he played with Casey in College he was against his use of a cart. Could be wrong but that’s my recollection.
“Woods’s stance on using golf carts on the PGA Tour is not a new one, and he made sure to acknowledge that to the media on Tuesday. Woods attended Stanford with former PGA Tour player and now Oregon men’s golf coach, Casey Martin. In 2001, Martin sued the PGA Tour under the Americans with Disabilities Act for the right to use a golf cart during tournaments. Martin has Klippel-Trenaunay syndrome in his right leg, which he had amputated above the knee in ’21. The lawsuit, PGA Tour, Inc. v. Martin, reached the U.S. Supreme Court, where justices ruled in favor of Martin. They declared that the ADA prevents the PGA Tour from requiring Martin to walk.
[/size]“You know, my teammate was Casey Martin, O.K.?” Tiger said. “What he did with the ADA, I voted against it. I think [walking] is an integral part of the game, at our level. I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned. It is sanctioned on the Champions Tour, and PNC is part of that. As far as a regular event, no, I would never do that.”[/color]
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Thanks for the information. Too bad that Tiger will not consider the use of a cart...I have never been a Tiger fan except to the extent of beyond admiration for his golf....As to being against the Casey Martin ruling and not supporting Casey also too bad for Tiger...
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Why does golf need him?
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'I Would Never Do That’: Tiger Woods Solidifies Stance on Using a Golf Cart (https://www.si.com/golf/news/tiger-woods-golf-cart-casey-martin)
"I think [walking] is an integral part of the game, at our level. I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned. It is sanctioned on the Champions Tour, and PNC is part of that. As far as a regular event, no, I would never do that.”
I think that line is interesting. Walking as an integral part of the game makes sense, but what about "I will never take a cart until it is sanctioned".
Does that mean if it was allowed for everyone he would take a cart? If taking a cart is sanctioned, does that mean walking is no longer a part of the game?
It brings more light into what he's working on with Rory, there is no walking involved with a simulator.
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He said I do once. I do still.
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;) He says no way, so be it... if he did play, that's be all you'd see and hear on tv coverage, plantar fasciitis, it hurts, how amazing is Tiger?
I was just wondering if Tiger will play the Champions Tour in the not too distant future, in a cart... ::)
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;) He says no way, so be it... if he did play, that's be all you'd see and hear on tv coverage, plantar fasciitis, it hurts, how amazing is Tiger?
I was just wondering if Tiger will play the Champions Tour in the not too distant future, in a cart... ::)
Sounds like he will...from the above:
""I think [walking] is an integral part of the game, at our level. I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned. It is sanctioned on the Champions Tour, and PNC is part of that"
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Should Tiger be allowed to drive a car is a better question.
::)
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Look at the field of the Hero. The LIV wins without playing.
Countdown to another wrong move by the Tour.
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Look at the field of the Hero. The LIV wins without playing.
Countdown to another wrong move by the Tour.
Wrong again JK! The Hero will be broadcast on a national TV network for all 4 rounds. The LIV still can't buy its way on a national network. Nobody wants to watch a bunch of has-beens play an exhibition financed by terrorists.
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Look at the field of the Hero. The LIV wins without playing.
Countdown to another wrong move by the Tour.
Wrong again JK! The Hero will be broadcast on a national TV network for all 4 rounds. The LIV still can't buy its way on a national network. Nobody wants to watch a bunch of has-beens play an exhibition financed by terrorists.
Another Notre Dame grad wearing blinders. Excuse me Monsignor...those aren’t pillows.
Aren’t you a little sad for those family members from 911 who were used for such folly? It’s an embarrassment to victims worldwide.
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Look at the field of the Hero. The LIV wins without playing.
Countdown to another wrong move by the Tour.
Wrong again JK! The Hero will be broadcast on a national TV network for all 4 rounds. The LIV still can't buy its way on a national network. Nobody wants to watch a bunch of has-beens play an exhibition financed by terrorists.
Assuming the Tiger in a cart has been resolved, a perspective on LIV from outside the US.
LIV are coming to Adelaide (Australia) next year and its largely sold out, I've had a couple of different groups playing road trips to catch the golf.
Prominent LIVer Cameron Smith won last week playing in the Australian PGA and there was no mention of LIV and a really good vibe by the look of things. He is massively popular out here as is Marc Leishman (Norman not so)
The PGATour has damaged smaller tours with the wrap around season, talking to golfers out here, many see the LIV/PGATour battle as black knight vs black knight, no great love for either. With LIV we get our guys back home playing, seemingly the other has beens still have appeal in places starved of good golf.
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As to being against the Casey Martin ruling and not supporting Casey also too bad for Tiger...
Almost all pro golfers were against that. Walking IS integral to the sport at that level.
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For those in favour of allowing carts in Tournament play, are you expecting the caddie to chauffeur? Not a good look IMO.
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Do caddies make the PgaTour any money? Oh no. Love you, miss you, can’t wait to kiss you.
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Look at the field of the Hero. The LIV wins without playing.
Countdown to another wrong move by the Tour.
Wrong again JK! The Hero will be broadcast on a national TV network for all 4 rounds. The LIV still can't buy its way on a national network. Nobody wants to watch a bunch of has-beens play an exhibition financed by terrorists.
Another Notre Dame grad wearing blinders. Excuse me Monsignor...those aren’t pillows.
Aren’t you a little sad for those family members from 911 who were used for such folly? It’s an embarrassment to victims worldwide.
Wrong again JK, I'm not an ND grad or Catholic.
I am Irish-American. And what's sad is people who forget where the majority of 9-11 terrorists came from and who financed them. I guess you either didn't listen to those family members speeches or like the LIV golfers chose to ignore
them. :o
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Got it, Rudy.
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Why not? Half these PGA Tour events are basically circus like exhibitions. Let em all ride. Does it really matter outside the majors and a handful of proper tour stops?
Ciao
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Brian raises an interesting point above. Track record.
Atb
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Why not? Half these PGA Tour events are basically circus like exhibitions. Let em all ride. Does it really matter outside the majors and a handful of proper tour stops?
Ciao
(https://cvws.icloud-content.com/B/AXHabEdghFHlg4qwtp9nYIEZGKOUAeJ8YL787o4IGivAZq6k7cB4y6PM/jax+beach.jpeg?o=AgUG_ox0Mafr3Tv9PcOFaciJ8PmG7a-YU4cx9yrxjzM3&v=1&x=3&a=CAog4llMs7PY9JnaXRL_W_4rC-lvFAm-XZjhbtm5881IYWoSbRDk8cqh1DAY5M6mo9QwIgEAUgQZGKOUWgR4y6PMaiaInsXTnRcDaoaZrzZllxECAj5J9pvy4phqqF1kWPgFS6_-kejv6HImbsexnFMAns9koi5wAA2ECpS7KematkABx2PTeCaITRGiZIkgztg&e=1671890052&fl=&r=9038583a-704a-43c5-bde5-e5ee99d780e3-1&k=lOvL0K_bMxk_KmSbatTS0Q&ckc=com.apple.clouddocs&ckz=com.apple.CloudDocs&p=25&s=-5CJowxu_fV4rJp5L9psfxSLdd4&cd=i)
This is the slippery slope of life.
Then you need cart paths, then you re-design the cart paths to fit spectators walking with carts, then your neighboring course wants to...
TV has changed but live television sporting events are more valuable and more influential than ever, so yes it really matters.
Tiger is really standing up for golf these days (walking conversation, calling out Greg Norman, caddying for Charlie...), so yes, he gets my support.
PS - Your Midwest journey is appreciated on the other threads.
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Why not? Half these PGA Tour events are basically circus like exhibitions. Let em all ride. Does it really matter outside the majors and a handful of proper tour stops?
Ciao
This is the slippery slope of life.
Then you need cart paths, then you re-design the cart paths to fit spectators walking with carts, then your neighboring course wants to...
TV has changed but live television sporting events are more valuable and more influential than ever, so yes it really matters.
Tiger is really standing up for golf these days (walking conversation, calling out Greg Norman, caddying for Charlie...), so yes, he gets my support.
PS - Your Midwest journey is appreciated on the other threads.
Sweeney
Comments are in jest to highlight the monkey events the PGA Tour holds.
Ciao
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Why not? Half these PGA Tour events are basically circus like exhibitions. Let em all ride. Does it really matter outside the majors and a handful of proper tour stops?
Ciao
This is the slippery slope of life.
Then you need cart paths, then you re-design the cart paths to fit spectators walking with carts, then your neighboring course wants to...
TV has changed but live television sporting events are more valuable and more influential than ever, so yes it really matters.
Tiger is really standing up for golf these days (walking conversation, calling out Greg Norman, caddying for Charlie...), so yes, he gets my support.
PS - Your Midwest journey is appreciated on the other threads.
Well said.
Tiger has made it clear he doesn't want a cart.
This thread seems orientated towards making him take one. How did we ever get to that?
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If golf tourneys can now be 54 holes with no cut....
If golfers can now play shotguns starts...
If golfers can now wear shorts....
If golfers can now use range finders...
If golfers are cranking music on-course....
Then Tiger Woods can use a fucking golf cart.... ;D ;D
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:P
When he gets to the senior tour he gets the cart
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This discussion has me curious. What percentage of Senior Tour players ride in a cart?
I can't imagine Pádraig Harrington is doing it while he is still trying to compete on two levels. I don't know about Stephen Alker, Steve Stricker, or Bernhard Longer. And they, of course, are the ones who are making all the $$$$.
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:D Last couple of years at the Champions Tour Insperity, I've seen 6-10 players in carts and the old TPC layout is pretty flat... seems about same as number of wives caddying...
I believe player or caddy can ride 9 or 18 but not both together is rule
used to see Fuzzy walk, then he went carting... must have been the vodka... John Daly always rides now...
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Why does golf need him?
Agreed.
For years golf has ignored myriad other great (and really good) golfers to focus on ONLY Tiger. There are more stories to be had besides the Tiger one.
And, if he was against Casey Martin (LOL, not Paul Casey, thanks!) using a cart, NO WAY should e even ask for one.
Maybe he can go to the LIV Tour and wear shorts while he uses a cart?
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I think he's stubborn and should use a cart, he is clearly dissabled
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Richard....Casey Martin, NOT Paul Casey.....Tiger said he would never use a cart.....And, lastly, he has been critical of the 54 Hole Tour and would not join it even if he could play in shorts and no top.
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I understand the question posed to be whether Tiger should be allowed to use a cart. The answer is: yes, he’s disabled; it’s the law. Whether he should is totally up to him. He says he won’t unless all competitors can. End of story.
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I understand the question posed to be whether Tiger should be allowed to use a cart. The answer is: yes, he’s disabled; it’s the law. Whether he should is totally up to him. He says he won’t unless all competitors can. End of story.
That is simply not true. From the ADA website:
https://www.ada.gov/topics/title-iii/ (https://www.ada.gov/topics/title-iii/)
A business does not need to modify a policy if it would fundamentally alter the nature of the business’s goods or services. A fundamental alteration would be something that causes a change in the essential nature of your business. For example, a clothing store is not required to provide dressing assistance for a customer with a disability if this is not a service provided to other customers.
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Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?
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Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?
I think it's Mike who is unaware, yes.
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Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?
He did but according to this article the ruling was for Casey Martin only.....
"PGA Commissioner Tim Finchem said the court made it clear that it was ruling only on the case of Casey Martin, and that it seems to have left the PGA some latitude to continue its rule on requiring players to walk."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93180&page=1 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93180&page=1)
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Pretty sure even though he played with Casey in College he was against his use of a cart. Could be wrong but that’s my recollection.
“Woods’s stance on using golf carts on the PGA Tour is not a new one, and he made sure to acknowledge that to the media on Tuesday. Woods attended Stanford with former PGA Tour player and now Oregon men’s golf coach, Casey Martin. In 2001, Martin sued the PGA Tour under the Americans with Disabilities Act for the right to use a golf cart during tournaments. Martin has Klippel-Trenaunay syndrome in his right leg, which he had amputated above the knee in ’21. The lawsuit, PGA Tour, Inc. v. Martin, reached the U.S. Supreme Court, where justices ruled in favor of Martin. They declared that the ADA prevents the PGA Tour from requiring Martin to walk.
“You know, my teammate was Casey Martin, O.K.?” Tiger said. “What he did with the ADA, I voted against it. I think [walking] is an integral part of the game, at our level. I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned. It is sanctioned on the Champions Tour, and PNC is part of that. As far as a regular event, no, I would never do that.”
Woods was supportive of Casey Martin using a cart.
Tiger offers support to ex-roomie (capecodtimes.com) (https://www.capecodtimes.com/story/news/2001/06/16/tiger-offers-support-to-ex/51002200007/)
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Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?
I think it's Mike who is unaware, yes.
I work with the Developmentally Disabled, so I am completely aware on this issue from 16 different perspectives. We have one wheelchair child on our campus and it works because of a completely dedicated family and team.
I will let the ABC News article above speak to the nature of Casey Martin's ruling.
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Every case only applies to the litigants. The next case is always about distinguishing it from the precedent. As Tiger said on tv yesterday, “I can play golf. I just can’t walk.” That’s the Casey Martin case. I’m sure one could find a lawyer to get well paid to try to distinguish the two cases. He would lose, but would keep the money.
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Every case only applies to the litigants. The next case is always about distinguishing it from the precedent. As Tiger said on tv yesterday, “I can play golf. I just can’t walk.” That’s the Casey Martin case. I’m sure one could find a lawyer to get well paid to try to distinguish the two cases. He would lose, but would keep the money.
I will do it for nothing and win.
Casey Martin was born with KTS -
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10015047-former-pga-tour-golfer-casey-martin-has-leg-amputated-due-to-circulatory-disorder (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10015047-former-pga-tour-golfer-casey-martin-has-leg-amputated-due-to-circulatory-disorder)Klippel-Trenaunay (klih-PEL tray-no-NAY) syndrome ― also called KTS ― a rare disorder found at birth (congenital) involving abnormal development of blood vessels, soft tissues (such as skin and muscles), bones, and the lymphatic system. The main features include a red birthmark (port-wine stain), overgrowth of tissues and bones, and vein malformations with or without lymphatic abnormalities.[/size]"Although there is no cure for KTS, the goal is to manage symptoms and prevent complications."
__________________________________________
Tiger Woods injuries are from the wear and tear of a very successful golf life.
They are not comparable circumstances.
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That’s what is known as a distinction without a difference. Do you really think it would make a difference whether your wheel chair child were born with a disability or suffered it in a car accident?
The Supreme Court ruled that walking is not an integral part of the game of golf. The Tour argued otherwise and lost. Go find a lawyer willing to make your argument. You’ll pay dearly, but you’ll lose.
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Jim,
The USGA turned down John Daly in 2018 for an exemption for the US SENIOR Open:
https://www.desertsun.com/story/sports/golf/2019/05/09/golfers-riding-cart-still-tiny-exception-not-rule-game/1154319001/ (https://www.desertsun.com/story/sports/golf/2019/05/09/golfers-riding-cart-still-tiny-exception-not-rule-game/1154319001/)
PGA of America allowed Daly to use a cart, certainly in part because he has an exemption as a former PGA Champion. It never got to lawyers.
Facts are the Martin decision is just that - one decision. [/font][/font]
I rode in a cart (just a few holes when Jerry Barber wanted to walk) as a caddy in a 1984 Senior PGA TOUR tournament in Rhode Island, so carts were allowed on the Senior Tour from very early on, and I think always.
Certainly we have seen the Supreme Court reverse decisions. My issue is the of these marque cases. Their implications in the real world often have "unintended complications". I live it.
Cheers.
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The American with Disabilities Act is one of the great pieces of legislation of the last 50 years or more. It literally opened doors for people with all types of disabilities that substantially limit a major life function. It has led to better lives for the hearing impaired, people with intellectual disabilities, severe arthritis, autism, etc. An ancillary effect has been to welcome these folks into the mainstream of society. No longer does one go to the supermarket and see others gawking at someone with a noticeable disability. Indeed we now even have commercials featuring the disabled.
The Casey Martin legal case was folly on the part of the PGA Tour. It is always a mistake to give control to the courts, This was an individual case and the PGA Tour would have been much wiser to allow the cart and keep it out of the court.
There were four components to the case: 1. Did CM have a disability under ADA? 2. Was a golf tournament a place of public accommodation? 3. Was walking an essential part of PGA tour golf competition? 4. Was the use of a cart a reasonable accommodation?
The court decision is limited to Casey Martin only because disabilities need to be determined on a case by case basis. Parts 2,3, and 4 would likely apply to anyone who is found to have a disability under ADA.
Part 3 is the trickiest of the 3 components. Casey Martin had used a cart at Stanford. Carts were allowed in the first two stages of Q school, but not in the third. There is nothing in the rules of golf that says one must walk. The PGA's mandate of walking only was therefore based on tradition. Certainly tradition has been the basis for much discrimination.
The PGA needed to show that the use of a cart would fundamentally alter the nature of the golf tournament. As is typical, ambiguous language open to interpretation and the key phrase is fundamentally alter. The court ruled it would not and that walking was not indispensable to the competition.
Whether Tiger Woods or any other golfer qualifies for a cart would again be up to the PGA tour. If denied, and Tiger or another pursued this, again the court would need to rule. It makes no difference the cause of the disability. Congenital, accident or wear and tear. If one has severe arthritis from wear and tear and cannot walk they are indeed disabled under ADA.
It was a huge error for the PGA Tour to have denied Casey Martin and allowed the court to intervene. There is now precedence. Then again with this court does precedence matter?
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Richard....Casey Martin, NOT Paul Casey.....Tiger said he would never use a cart.....And, lastly, he has been critical of the 54 Hole Tour and would not join it even if he could play in shorts and no top.
I think it needs to be clarified that Tiger certainly would take a cart if it were sanctioned by the Tour, even if there is little to zero chance they would do it, although I could see LIV allowing it.
From a previous quote by Tiger
"I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned."
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Woods was supportive of Casey Martin using a cart.
No, he voted against it. After the ruling, he was "supportive of his former teammate," but he didn't agree with the Casey ruling, and has said he believes walking is an integral part of the event. That he's not even willing to offer himself an exemption in his own event (the HERO) speaks to that.
“You know, my teammate was Casey Martin, O.K.?” Tiger said. “What he did with the ADA, I voted against it. I think [walking] is an integral part of the game, at our level. I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned. It is sanctioned on the Champions Tour, and PNC is part of that. As far as a regular event, no, I would never do that.”
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It was a huge error for the PGA Tour to have denied Casey Martin and allowed the court to intervene. There is now precedence. Then again with this court does precedence matter?
Cliff,
That is a very thoughtful response. Thanks for that.
I disagree that it was a mistake. The precedence has rarely (never?) been used on the PGA TOUR, and John Daly received two separate, very different decisions from the PGA of America and USGA in the 2018-19 era.
If the Supreme Court kicked most of their decisions back to the States, that would be a preferred path by me, most of the time. I am a believer in decentralized decision making at the local level.
Thanks again, your response was appreciated.
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Using a cart on the senior circuit is likely much different than on the regular tour. Infrastructure is different in size and scope, crowd size is different. When Casey was given a cart, it was of single person size designed to be driven on concrete or asphalt. He had trouble negotiating the crowds and the slopes because he had to travel on cart paths as much as possible, probably having to navigate through crowds four times per hole (on average). It would be a beast on days when lift/clean/place is in effect,
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Using a cart on the senior circuit is likely much different than on the regular tour. Infrastructure is different in size and scope, crowd size is different. When Casey was given a cart, it was of single person size designed to be driven on concrete or asphalt. He had trouble negotiating the crowds and the slopes because he had to travel on cart paths as much as possible, probably having to navigate through crowds four times per hole (on average). It would be a beast on days when lift/clean/place is in effect,
I played with Casey in Knoxville (Korn ferry) for two rounds. We had pretty good crowds mostly due to Casey (not a pga tour crowd for sure). A pretty hilly course, and his logistics were pretty straightforward.
My first “regular” champions tour event, I was having some Achilles issues and took advantage of the cart access. There weren’t many using carts. I didn’t count, probably less than 10?
It wasn’t easy in a few spots, but fairly doable without stress. Made things a lot easier for me with what I was dealing with
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I can't imagine Pádraig Harrington is doing it while he is still trying to compete on two levels. I don't know about Stephen Alker, Steve Stricker, or Bernhard Longer.
Love this!!!! Sorry Tom...this may be the first typo I've ever seen from you! Or maybe you slyly slid it in there?
Cheers
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I played with Casey in Knoxville (Korn ferry) for two rounds. We had pretty good crowds mostly due to Casey (not a pga tour crowd for sure). A pretty hilly course, and his logistics were pretty straightforward.
My first “regular” champions tour event, I was having some Achilles issues and took advantage of the cart access. There weren’t many using carts. I didn’t count, probably less than 10?
It wasn’t easy in a few spots, but fairly doable without stress. Made things a lot easier for me with what I was dealing with
Pat….Would it be fair to presume that the low number of cart users implies an insignificant advantage to using a cart rather than walking? or do you think it was more peer pressure/image or whatever?
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Looking forward to watching the Whale this weekend at a dine-in theater. I'll probably be 4000 calories in before I walk out. And no, I can't walk four rounds of 5 hour tournament golf either. My disability, my choice.
Let's not dilute excellent legislation so a billionaire can pad his stats.
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Cliff
I think a little of everything. I even felt some pressure, but I have a pretty unique “dont give a fuck” attitude when It comes to those situations. I was in discomfort a bit and walking all three days would have aggravated it, impacting my golf swing.
But there are many who believe walking is integral to competing and won’t take a cart.
Many are likely simply doing what they e always done, walk in tournaments and prefer it.
So t think there’s one answer to be honest.
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Pat, thanks for the reply...My takeaway is that even senior golfers do not find a significant advantage to taking a cart. I would think that if they did almost everyone would take one...Also, as you said walking is how they have always played. Hence, taking a cart just might be detrimental to their game. Again, thanks for the reply.
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Pat, thanks for the reply...My takeaway is that even senior golfers do not find a significant advantage to taking a cart. I would think that if they did almost everyone would take one...Also, as you said walking is how they have always played. Hence, taking a cart just might be detrimental to their game. Again, thanks for the reply.
Pride and habit are funny things. So too the idea of walking with your caddie, your playing partners, etc.
There's a reason almost every PGA Tour player at the time, including Tiger, voted against it and said that walking is integral to the sport at their level. Endurance matters. Tour players often walk 90-108 holes a week (when they make the cut), often for a few weeks in a row.