Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Alex Miller on November 22, 2022, 05:06:48 PM
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https://golf.com/news/augusta-nationals-new-longer-13th-tee/ (https://golf.com/news/augusta-nationals-new-longer-13th-tee/)
It's seemingly official, the 13th at ANGC will now play from a new tee significantly further back amongst the trees. My guess is about ~30 yards or so.
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Not sure how it looks on the ground, but from that drone shot it looks really silly and could be a great example for a presentation on rolling back the ball.
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Here it is. This should do for about 5 or so years...until they gotta go back 30 or 40 more! ;)
(https://golf.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/tee-extend-update.jpg?width=1568&height=882)
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The member tee remains where the bottom arrow is.
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2022 Masters scoring average: 4.87, 6 eagles to 10 doubles or worse
Historical average 4.77, lowest scoring average hole in Masters
It seems to me like the hole was playing as designed quite well and wasn't a total pushover. I'm disappointed to see this new tee instead of ANGC spearheading a roll back, but we shouldn't be surprised given the land acquisition.
Does anyone know why ANGC is so reticent to add a third set of tees? Even before this change the members tees were 1100y+ shorter than the Masters tees with nothing in between. I can only recall in tourney time they use the members tees on #4 one round per year, either Thursday or Friday.
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I kinda wish the 6900 yard tees that were the Masters tees for most of the 20th century had at least been preserved in some form.
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Wait until you see ANGC's recent work done to #15....that's even more dramatic and strategically meaningful.
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2022 Masters scoring average: 4.87, 6 eagles to 10 doubles or worse
Historical average 4.77, lowest scoring average hole in Masters
It seems to me like the hole was playing as designed quite well and wasn't a total pushover. I'm disappointed to see this new tee instead of ANGC spearheading a roll back, but we shouldn't be surprised given the land acquisition.
Does anyone know why ANGC is so reticent to add a third set of tees? Even before this change the members tees were 1100y+ shorter than the Masters tees with nothing in between. I can only recall in tourney time they use the members tees on #4 one round per year, either Thursday or Friday.
In the final round of 88, Sandy Lyle had 150 yards into 13 and from memory the leaders had 185-210 yards into 15.
They were pretty exciting tournaments in that era.
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The member tee remains where the bottom arrow is.
Yes, it seems that the Tournament tees only moved back about 1 and a half arrows.
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Here's what it looked like in 1991: https://www.instagram.com/p/ClWOBcDMm6l/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/ClWOBcDMm6l/)
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I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green.
I am 40, and when I was in my teens players were consistently going at the green with long irons. If a pro has more than a 7 iron into the green now it is because he hit a bad drive.
It all depends on what The Masters Tournament wants. If they want to preserve the integrity of the hole and what it requires, well, I understand why they want the hole longer. That being said there isn't a single member that is benefiting from this added length. Not my money.
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I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green.
I am 40, and when I was in my teens players were consistently going at the green with long irons. If a pro has more than a 7 iron into the green now it is because he hit a bad drive.
It all depends on what The Masters Tournament wants. If they want to preserve the integrity of the hole and what it requires, well, I understand why they want the hole longer. That being said there isn't a single member that is benefiting from this added length. Not my money.
Agreed.
The second shot will always be the second shot. The only real way to retain scale would be via equipment rollback or moving the green(along with the tee) and creek back 20-30 yards.
If they keep moving the tee back, eventually some won't reach the corner, and be hitting a hook just to lay up, while the bombers reaching the corner will face the same shot that historically players faced for years from 195-230.
Not really the hole Jones and Mackenzie had in mind.
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I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green.
I am 40, and when I was in my teens players were consistently going at the green with long irons. If a pro has more than a 7 iron into the green now it is because he hit a bad drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5_Ld07sMA&t=5755s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5_Ld07sMA&t=5755s)
184 in 1997, FWIW.
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OK, you are cherry picking the Tiger Woods who was bombing it 320 yards in 1997. This is the definition of cherry picking.
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OK, you are cherry picking the Tiger Woods who was bombing it 320 yards in 1997. This is the definition of cherry picking.
Very much NOT the definition, seeing as how the conversation went like this:
You: "I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green."
Me: "Here's showing one of the longest hitters with 184 in, so yeah, I agree that they are delusional if they think people regularly had 150 in."
You again: "That's cherry picking!"
No, it's the opposite. I was backing your point.
Also: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y1997.html (https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y1997.html)
Edit because I just realized "other guy" was still you.
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OK, you are cherry picking the Tiger Woods who was bombing it 320 yards in 1997. This is the definition of cherry picking.
Very much NOT the definition, seeing as how the conversation went like this:
Other Guy: "I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green."
Me: "Here's showing one of the longest hitters with 184 in, so yeah, they are delusional if they think they had 150 in."
You: "That's cherry picking!"
No, it's the opposite. I was backing his point.
Also: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y1997.html (https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y1997.html)
I am just going to put this here: 323 yards at the 1997 Masters
https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/)
Everyone knows Tiger could hit the ball 320 at will when he wanted to back in those days. Augusta was the ideal course for him to let it rip. Remember, this was pre Tiger-proofing.
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I am just going to put this here: 323 yards at the 1997 Masters
https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/)
Everyone knows Tiger could hit the ball 320 at will when he wanted to back in those days. Augusta was the ideal course for him to let it rip. Remember, this was pre Tiger-proofing.
I'm not sure you're reading me right. Even Tiger didn't have 150 yards in in 1997, so yeah, I agree with you the other guy: those people who remember that have it wrong. I'll leave it at that.
(Edit is the struck part. Just realized today you were the "other guy." Duh me.)
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I am just going to put this here: 323 yards at the 1997 Masters
https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/)
Everyone knows Tiger could hit the ball 320 at will when he wanted to back in those days. Augusta was the ideal course for him to let it rip. Remember, this was pre Tiger-proofing.
I'm not sure you're reading me right. Even Tiger didn't have 150 yards in in 1997, so yeah, I agree with the other guy: those people who remember that have it wrong. I'll leave it at that.
Erik,
The footage of the 1988 Masters is available here. [size=78%]https://youtu.be/Xh5oMzY2x_A (https://youtu.be/Xh5oMzY2x_A)[/size]
They talk at length about Lyle’s yardage into 13 at the 1hr27min mark. For context, in the group before, Langer had 175 yards in.
This would be an excellent chance to show that you can give a simple, unqualified apology.
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https://sports.yahoo.com/reviews-pga-tour-pros-played-193206442.html (https://sports.yahoo.com/reviews-pga-tour-pros-played-193206442.html)
Kevin Kisner (not a long hitter) had 210 for his second shot after playing the new tee recently. The large majority of the field will still go for it in 2.
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They talk at length about Lyle’s yardage into 13 at the 1hr27min mark. For context, in the group before, Langer had 175 yards in.
This would be an excellent chance to show that you can give a simple, unqualified apology.
Apologize for what, exactly? I'll say it again in plain language, and expand even though I thought what I said before was obvious:
Matt Kardash: "I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green."
Me: "I agree they're delusional. Tiger set the world on fire in 1997, and even he had 184 in on Sunday. Here's a video showing that. Because even now players rarely have 150 yards in, and they didn't often have 150 yards in "back in the day." The Tiger video shows that even he had 184 in."
So first I'm accused of "cherry picking" and then you come in with a video from 1988 (when the hole was 465?) showing that Sandy Lyle had maybe 150 yards in? And demand an apology? For what, exactly? I'm not even making a point here - I'm agreeing with another poster that players of ANY era but especially "back in the day" didn't often have 150 yards in to #13.
That's it.
I apologize if my first post was unclear — I thought that the nature of a post showing "even Tiger had 184 in to #13 back in 1997" was obvious — but I'd think one might simply ask for a clarification in that case.
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Wait until you see ANGC's recent work done to #15....that's even more dramatic and strategically meaningful.
I know it was lengthened last year. What was done this year?
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FWIW, Tiger hit fairway wood of the 13th tee in 1997.
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https://sports.yahoo.com/reviews-pga-tour-pros-played-193206442.html (https://sports.yahoo.com/reviews-pga-tour-pros-played-193206442.html)
Kevin Kisner (not a long hitter) had 210 for his second shot after playing the new tee recently. The large majority of the field will still go for it in 2.
As many have previously pointed out, it's very hard to understand why Augusta gets rid of old tees and limits its options. Based on this article I could see players still having mid irons into this hole under warm and firm conditions. Conversely, cool soft conditions could mean a lot of lay ups. They should have given themselves the option to go further back and kept the old tee. Right now, the Masters can only play from this new tee.
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As many have previously pointed out, it's very hard to understand why Augusta gets rid of old tees and limits its options. Based on this article I could see players still having mid irons into this hole under warm and firm conditions. Conversely, cool soft conditions could mean a lot of lay ups. They should have given themselves the option to go further back and kept the old tee. Right now, the Masters can only play from this new tee.
I feel like they think "extra teeing areas scattered about" is an eyesore or something. The closest you'll get is a "longer" tee box so they have some flexibility.
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Limit its Options? that sounds like if player's can't reach the green in 2 the hole is a failure.
Based on some of the pictures posted by Eureka Earth (https://twitter.com/EurekaEarthPlus/status/1595394159577387008?s=20&t=qVlb8t0c8D9s4vESATnZdA), The best I can tell, the hole has only been lengthened by ~18 yards, with only ~15 yards separating the back of the old tee with the front of the new tee. So, we're looking at the hole being listed at something like 530 yards on the card this year.
Should we really complain that players "may" not be able to reach a 530 yard par 5 in two? Many recent US Opens have played par 4's longer than 530 yards.
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Based on some of the pictures posted by Eureka Earth (https://twitter.com/EurekaEarthPlus/status/1595394159577387008?s=20&t=qVlb8t0c8D9s4vESATnZdA), The best I can tell, the hole has only been lengthened by ~18 yards, with only ~15 yards separating the back of the old tee with the front of the new tee. So, we're looking at the hole being listed at something like 530 yards on the card this year.
I'm not sure what you've seen, but I've heard 35-40 yards, and I'd have a hard time seeing this as only being about 18 yards:
(https://p197.p4.n0.cdn.getcloudapp.com/items/xQuOvnx6/50bdcebf-5dac-41ce-a957-dd8d0cc9dca5.png?v=a4ff4962b5a29332b07cdbd25edc463f)
Fuller size here: https://p197.p4.n0.cdn.getcloudapp.com/items/v1uEyNg9/1f28f423-8932-4b71-8e57-3f48d20a3615.png?v=4d270c0476f86328bd3344cc92c2a1e9 (https://p197.p4.n0.cdn.getcloudapp.com/items/v1uEyNg9/1f28f423-8932-4b71-8e57-3f48d20a3615.png?v=4d270c0476f86328bd3344cc92c2a1e9)
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From the Eureka Earth Tweet i linked in my previous post:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/L2Z5nQHIaOGncY2D8620-GsdYvmPfjuybLdw1SQjE8yjhm261EGwipKnj_KjWAsLJ4pP87_6PFRbVyE_CFfhsqmM_Er3hUwsQEIGtCtLA4Gw-2tZzAQDopIlzhNgXxiHBQph3eUaGJw=w2400)
If you notice the tree circled at the top of each picture, that tree is visible on the April, 2022 aerial on Google Earth and measures 100 yards from the waters edge. Where the back of the Masters tee disappears into the shadows is 65 yards from the water along the same line. So at best, to stay short of that tree the tee could only be moved back 35 yards. But if you notice, in the right hand picture there is a good bit of space between the tree and the back of the new tee box, including space for a cart path, reducing the possible distance the tee has been moved back.
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If this Golf Digest article is to be believed, new Masters Tee yardage is 545y. I don't remember the exact verbiage ANGC uses for their tee yardages, but I believe it's back of the teebox to center of the green - always measured in 5y increments.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/augusta-national-13th-hole-changes-the-loop-podcast
"Though Augusta National won't confirm the exact yardage of the new tee until Masters Week, we're told from a recent visitor that the scorecard reads 545 from the tournament tees."
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They talk at length about Lyle’s yardage into 13 at the 1hr27min mark. For context, in the group before, Langer had 175 yards in.
This would be an excellent chance to show that you can give a simple, unqualified apology.
Apologize for what, exactly?
Pathological
Seek help
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Pathological
Seek help
Ha ha ha. Okay David… I've shown this whole thread to five other people today. One replied "Holy crap, they’re so confrontational they don’t know how to realize someone might be agreeing with them." Then he said "You’re not missing anything, they’re just really, really dumb and jumping all over you because it’s you." Another said "Seems like the other people are missing the point. I was confused with your first post until I read the explanation." But, okay, pal. On to the ignore list you go.
Ben, that's on a slope, with a camera/photo at an unknown angle, etc. I'd wager a LOT of money that it's > 18 yards for sure. Like I said, they've said 35 officially, I think.
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If this Golf Digest article is to be believed, new Masters Tee yardage is 545y. I don't remember the exact verbiage ANGC uses for their tee yardages, but I believe it's back of the teebox to center of the green - always measured in 5y increments.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/augusta-national-13th-hole-changes-the-loop-podcast (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/augusta-national-13th-hole-changes-the-loop-podcast)
"Though Augusta National won't confirm the exact yardage of the new tee until Masters Week, we're told from a recent visitor that the scorecard reads 545 from the tournament tees."
I'd expect some of the yardage change for the hole is based on an angle change with the measurement.
Based on the previous 510 number, It would appear they would have to be using a 3 shot, double dogleg measuring route. Even if the measuring point is moved back only 20 yards, that could add another 30+ yards to the hole just on changing the corner of the dogleg for the measurement.
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I've shown this whole thread to five other people today.
:o ;D :o ;D
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Based on the previous 510 number, It would appear they would have to be using a 3 shot, double dogleg measuring route. Even if the measuring point is moved back only 20 yards, that could add another 30+ yards to the hole just on changing the corner of the dogleg for the measurement.
So you're still contending that they moved the tee back only 18 yards or so?
Edit:
640/26 = 24.61538461 pixels/yard
1540/24.6 = 62.6 yards
(https://p197.p4.n0.cdn.getcloudapp.com/items/wbuveYew/6c34e0c1-6856-4827-8bc6-c5044ccdbc9c.jpg?v=072e726ab37bc7f1c18727862d272b26)(https://p197.p4.n0.cdn.getcloudapp.com/items/GGuJ0EA4/c71ba80b-3e4a-452c-b5d1-01b2a07d1190.jpg?v=4da2de04584e7ba35d554b86bfbfb6bc)
Your blue line is over twice as long as your yellow line. The back tee box you drew is 900 pixels back of the old tee box, and you had the old tee box as being 26 yards at ~640 pixels.
Did you subtract 44 from 62 to arrive at 18? Or did you measure the distance from the BACK of the original tee to the FRONT of the new tee? (~520 pixels/24.6 = 21 yards)?
62-26 is about the 35 yards (36 yards) it's reported that they moved the tee, too.
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AP's Doug Ferguson talked to Tony Finau, who played the course twice in November:
Finau said he rarely hit more than a 7-iron [previously] for his second shot after a reasonable drive. That much has changed, but he felt the character of how the hole plays has not.
“I hit 4-iron the first time and 3-iron the second day,” Finau said.
The course is soft and long in the late fall and winter. Once it dries out for the first full week in April, Finau believes the big hitters will hit two clubs less.
“I don’t mind it for me,” he said. “I used to struggle with that tee shot. I like hitting driver, but I have to take it over the corner. Now I can hit it straight and it’s not going to go in the pine straw (through the fairway on the right).
The hole has played 510 yards. Finau said he looked at the yardage plate on the tee and it was 545 yards.