Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Kevin Pallier on November 08, 2022, 05:33:21 PM
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It's perennially rated in the Top100 courses in the World.
Both Golf Digest / Golf Magazine have it in their Top50 courses in the USA. It always seems to be rated ahead of the Streamsong and Sand Valley group of courses.
Is the original course at Bandon overrated? Why? Why not? What's so good / not so good about it?
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No, it's the course I most look forward to playing at the Resort.
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It's perennially rated in the Top100 courses in the World.
Both Golf Digest / Golf Magazine have it in their Top50 courses in the USA. It always seems to be rated ahead of the Streamsong and Sand Valley group of courses.
Is the original course at Bandon overrated? Why? Why not? What's so good / not so good about it?
I think you can research this yourself.
LOTS of info out there.
And book a trip yourself if you haven't.
NO time for this.
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It is not overrated. It is not the best course at the resort, but it could never have been the best course. It does stack up well with all the other courses (I've not seen Sheep Ranch.)
I wonder what the square acreage of each course is. I would suspect that Bandon is second-least, next to Sheep Ranch. I would think that the other three BIG courses have larger footprints. That would suggest the the OG did more with less. Any data?
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It is not overrated. It is not the best course at the resort, but it could never have been the best course. It does stack up well with all the other courses (I've not seen Sheep Ranch.)
I wonder what the square acreage of each course is. I would suspect that Bandon is second-least, next to Sheep Ranch. I would think that the other three BIG courses have larger footprints. That would suggest the the OG did more with less. Any data?
David’s original routing didn’t have the second half of 5, or any of 6-7-8, because they were over the property line. The rest of it was jammed very tightly together.
I suspect you are right that Bandon is smaller than Pacific, but not by much. I’d guess Bandon Trails would use the most land, because of the big ridge it straddles.
But, none of that bears more than tangentially on whether the courses are great, or overrated.
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I think you can research this yourself.
LOTS of info out there.
And book a trip yourself if you haven't.
NO time for this.
William
Bandon Dunes was the first course I played when I visited the resort. I also played Pacific Dunes, Trails and Old Mac noting Sheep Ranch wasn't built when I was there. I thought then and still to this day believe the original course is well in the shadow of the others.
I've been to Streamsong and thought all 3 courses there were better than Bandon Dunes. I haven't been to Sand Valley yet (coming from Australia) but do hope to see them one day especially with the new Lido.
I'm keen to hear what other people think about Bandon Dunes - hence my questions.
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No, it's the course I most look forward to playing at the Resort.
John
Why is that so?
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No, it's the course I most look forward to playing at the Resort.
John
Why is that so?
Because I'm at the finest golf resort in the world and the first tee is right outside the main clubhouse. I don't think of any of the courses at the resort as better than any other so I like the start at the first first.
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One of the joys of BDGR is the variety. Each course is like a different child, special and unique in their own right.
Bandon Dunes is like that 3rd Manning kid. See, don’t even remember his name. When your brothers are Peyton and Eli, you’ll always be considered inferior.
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One of the joys of BDGR is the variety. Each course is like a different child, special and unique in their own right.
Bandon Dunes is like that 3rd Manning kid. See, don’t even remember his name. When your brothers are Peyton and Eli, you’ll always be considered inferior.
The 3rd Manning kid, Cooper, whom I think was actually the first, was discovered to have a spinal issue that prevented him from continuing his football career. Not the best analogy.
I hope to play any of the BR courses someday. I'm sad I didn't play SR when it was in its original form.
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Bandon Dunes is my second favourite at the resort, behind Pacific Dunes.
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We have been to the resort twice and played Bandon Dunes each time. Would I return if it was the only course there? No. Probably not even it were easier to which to travel. There are a number of courses to which I would return or have returned whether or not near other courses. Yale, Pasatiempo, Primland, Blackwolf River, SS Blue and Red, Mid Pines come to mind. All of them are rated lower generally than BD. So by my "would I return?" test, yes, it is overrated. But it is a helluva good course with a great setting and vibe.
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I've only been to Bandon twice, and not since Sheep Ranch opened. Personally, I can't imagine not playing each course every time you go.
After my first visit, I thought that Bandon Dunes was a good course but clearly inferior to the other three.
My opinion of it improved quite a bit after my second visit. I think it has some of the weakest holes at the resort, and I let that color my original opinion excessively. I still do think its weaker holes are weaker than any other course's weak holes, but man the good holes are really good.
Of the four courses (again I haven't played Sheep Ranch) it also beats me up the least. Of any of the four, I'm the most ready to go back out for another round after walking off the 18th at Bandon Dunes.
I love Trails, but after the hike up 16 and invariably trudging through the dunes on 18 after another wayward drive, I'm ready to curl up with a good book at Trails End. Luckily for me that's my favorite dining spot.
I've only played the courses in the winter wind, which means that the 18 at Pacific Dunes is directly into the wind and feels like it's about 900 yards long. I walk off that course ready for a nap.
Old Mac doesn't have quite the same effect, but I still am gasping for a bit of air after the walks up 14 and 15.
I consider the back 9 at Bandon Dunes to be the most playable nine holes at the resort. 10 and 11 are short and fun, 12 is very underrated. When I first played 13 I was asking myself if the rumpled land was enough to make that hole interesting. After another round I decided that it did. 14 has a bunch of ways to play it. I don't like 15, and 17 is OK, but 16 is fantastic. Because of the winter wind, 18 on Bandon Dunes has always been downwind for me so maybe that helps, but I'm always feeling fresh and ready to head right back to one of the first tees after walking off BD 18.
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I'd like to hear from everyone here who has played each of the Bandon courses at least five or six times. Then tell me what are your favorites. All those courses are fantastic, but they all need to be played numerous times ideally in different conditions to make a more accurate assessment. And yes I know first impressions are very important, but with great golf courses, they need multiple views/plays to determine just how great they really are (even if your name is Tom Doak) ;D
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I think BD is more fun for the majority of players while the better player might prefer the challenge of PD and Trails. None of the courses are going overrated.
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I'd like to hear from everyone here who has played each of the Bandon courses at least five or six times. Then tell me what are your favorites. All those courses are fantastic, but they all need to be played numerous times ideally in different conditions to make a more accurate assessment. And yes I know first impressions are very important, but with great golf courses, they need multiple views/plays to determine just how great they really are (even if your name is Tom Doak) ;D
You need 5-6 plays per course for a legitimate opinion?
Funniest thing I have read on GCA in my 20+ years here.
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I have always thought so and would skip it for another round on Pacific Dunes and Trails. I find the opening two holes uninspiring as well as the 9th and 18th. Plenty of good stuff in between. Solid 7 in my book.
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I’ve never met another dude with Bandon Dunes tattooed on his ass. It’s frowned upon in intellectual circles.
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Kevin,
You can have an opinion about any golf course after one time around. Most do. But how legitimate it is is another matter. Whether the number is 5 or 6 or … rounds I’m not certain, but I am positive it is not just 1 or 2 which most rankings are based on.
As one example, think about Augusta National. There is a reason the players who have seen it often have an advantage. They have learned the subtle nuances, the better angles of play, the easier recoveries, the where not to miss,…, the rolls and swales and,… all the ingenious design aspects that the architect incorporated that cannot be picked up on one or two rounds. These details are what separate good from great!
I am sure you heard the story about Bobby Jones walking off The Old Course at St. Andrews after his first time seeing it saying it was a dog track! He hated it but after more and more times around, he recognized its brilliance and it became his favorite design. How legitimate would Mr. Jones’ vote have been after one time around?
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I think BD is more fun for the majority of players while the better player might prefer the challenge of PD and Trails. None of the courses are going overrated.
Then why is BD the preferred course for the USGA championships out here?
Of the five, Bandon is the only one with the length to challenge the better players. Most people play the Green Tees out here, with a few playing the Blacks. On some holes there's still another 30 to 50 yards back that never get put in play.
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I think BD is more fun for the majority of players while the better player might prefer the challenge of PD and Trails. None of the courses are going overrated.
Then why is BD the preferred course for the USGA championships out here?
Of the five, Bandon is the only one with the length to challenge the better players. Most people play the Green Tees out here, with a few playing the Blacks. On some holes there's still another 30 to 50 yards back that never get put in play.
Don’t you think that PD and BT are more difficult for visitors to the resort when most play the green tees?
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I think BD is more fun for the majority of players while the better player might prefer the challenge of PD and Trails. None of the courses are going overrated.
Then why is BD the preferred course for the USGA championships out here?
Of the five, Bandon is the only one with the length to challenge the better players. Most people play the Green Tees out here, with a few playing the Blacks. On some holes there's still another 30 to 50 yards back that never get put in play.
Don’t you think that PD and BT are more difficult for visitors to the resort when most play the green tees?
No. Depends on the day, depends on the wind, depends on the player.
Your first comment specified better players looking for a challenge. I'd think those that want to really test their game are going to step back as far as the resort will let them play.
From the Black tees, Bandon can be the toughest of the five (all you have to do is look at the par 3's to figure this out). Pac just doesn't have the length as the differential between greens and blacks there really isn't too great (there are a couple of exceptions, including 4). Same for Trails (other than 2). (As an aside, there used to be a greater differential at these courses, but the resort doesn't use many of the original Black tee boxes that much anymore if at all.) Old Mac has a few holes that stretch out a good bit further, with only really 11 turning into a beast. Sheep Ranch is the course where more groups move back to the blacks for a round while sticking with the greens on the other courses.
As for the main question on this thread, Bandon generally ranks higher than the other four on a random sampling of guests. I don't think this is because it is easier, and probably has more to do with people thinking that good shots get rewarded at Bandon. You don't get the severe punishment you get at Pac for a small miss, or the random bounces of Old Mac, or the problems presented by the brush and trees at Trails. If you miss at Bandon off the tee, for the most part you're going to have a chance at recovery. That shot might not be easy, but often it is possible. And oftentimes it is those shots that stick in people's memories, whether they were the one's that pulled it off or the opponent in the match that saw a sure win turn into a loss of half.
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Bandon Dunes - favorite
Bandon Trials - best course
Sheep Ranch - most fun
Pacific Dunes - close 2nd to all above
Old Mac - least favorite, but still really good
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Then why is BD the preferred course for the USGA championships out here?
Of the five, Bandon is the only one with the length to challenge the better players. Most people play the Green Tees out here, with a few playing the Blacks. On some holes there's still another 30 to 50 yards back that never get put in play.
Sven I think you make good points about the length.
But I also don't think it hurts that #16 at Bandon Dunes is arguably the most photogenic hole at the resort, certainly of the non-Sheep Ranch courses. And definitely the most photogenic late-round hole. While the USGA's amateur championships don't have to worry as much about TV/video implications as the US Open or PGA Tour events do, the possibility of having matches end on that hole could also be a factor.
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The 16th was hated when it first opened by many on this board. Rater culture used it to define why Pacific is a better design.
A dirty little secret. Bandon Dunes is underrated compared to the opinions of the civilian golfer.
I find it fascinating the both Keiser and Schwab trusted Kidd and yet the rater corp won’t.
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I would say that it's not overrated being in the top 50 in the US, even though I don't think it's one of the top two courses at the resort. And that's because while I think it has a few more negatives than either Pacific Dunes or Bandon Trails, its positives are about as strong as theirs.
Let's start with the weaknesses: the routing and some of the holes on the front nine. The walks from 1-2 (left tee), 3-4, and 6-7 are all longer than you'd want. The 6-7 walk is especially irritating because the 7th tee is next to the 5th green. And I wasn't a big fan of 2 (from the left tee; I might like it more from the right), 7, or especially 9. Except for a few bunkers in the middle of the fairway, 9, with its mounds up both sides and flattish fairway, reminded me of something from a high-end public course in metro Detroit.
But these walks are at most 150 yards and none of those is a bad hole. And the strengths are so strong. The back nine is as good as any on the property. There are a bunch of very good to great holes including 4-6, 10, 12, 14-17. And I thought that there was a lot of variety in the green complexes. Some were narrower, some were broader. Some had heavy interior contour, others not so much. And I really liked the surroundings of the greens. There's a lot of severity around these greens but unlike some new courses, there's always a good place to miss. The 15th hole--which they made a mess of in the US Amateur--is a good example of this. Yes long left and right are dead, but there's plenty of room short and left. You just have to realize it and use it.
So while Bandon Dunes might have the most weaknesses of the top 3 or 4 courses at Bandon (not counting Sheep Ranch, which I think is clearly inferior to the others), it has many strengths and the strengths are as strong as the other courses. All of that adds up to it probably being rated about right.
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A dude shaped like me died walking to 14 tee on Trails. Now we, thankfully, get shuttled.
Saying that Bandon Dunes is a tougher walk is misinformation.
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A dude shaped like me died walking to 14 tee on Trails. Now we, thankfully, get shuttled.
Saying that Bandon Dunes is a tougher walk is misinformation.
Ask your caddie, to a person they'll say Bandon and Sheep Ranch are the easiest walks. Pac is the toughest.
Its the sharp, quick climbs that burn your legs.
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No, it's the course I most look forward to playing at the Resort.
Also if you recall at the end of our February trip our friends who were experiencing Bandon for the first time chose Bandon Dunes as their favorite.
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It has been eleven years this week since my last trip to Bandon. The only thing that has demonstrably changed in that time is the construction and opening of Sheep Ranch. I can say without reservation that if I were to spend five nights and four full days at the resort, Bandon Dunes would get no more than one play.
When people ask me why I say that you could make a reliable argument that Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails are in the top two courses ever built by their respective architects. I’m not sure you can say the same about Bandon Dunes.
That said, I’m not so sure that means it’s overrated.
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I don't doubt Bandon Dunes is the most liked at the resort.
If it really has the least amount of odd bounces, is the easiest walk, more options for recovery, and most closely resembles the type of shots they are accustomed to playing at home...that alone is enough to put it over the top. Then throw in that its usually the one they see on the telly for tournaments and its a no-brainer.
P.S. Its not an accident when ur driving in the middle of nowhere and looking for a bite to eat, there is almost always a McDonalds at the upcoming stop. There's always comfort to be found in the familiar...
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I don't doubt Bandon Dunes is the most liked at the resort.
If it really has the least amount of odd bounces, is the easiest walk, more options for recovery, and most closely resembles the type of shots they are accustomed to playing at home...that alone is enough to put it over the top. Then throw in that its usually the one they see on the telly for tournaments and its a no-brainer.
P.S. Its not an accident when ur driving in the middle of nowhere and looking for a bite to eat, there is almost always a McDonalds at the upcoming stop. There's always comfort to be found in the familiar...
So, who you calling stupid? I hope not us.
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I don't doubt Bandon Dunes is the most liked at the resort.
If it really has the least amount of odd bounces, is the easiest walk, more options for recovery, and most closely resembles the type of shots they are accustomed to playing at home...that alone is enough to put it over the top. Then throw in that its usually the one they see on the telly for tournaments and its a no-brainer.
P.S. Its not an accident when ur driving in the middle of nowhere and looking for a bite to eat, there is almost always a McDonalds at the upcoming stop. There's always comfort to be found in the familiar...
So, who you calling stupid? I hope not us.
Its not judgement John, just one plausible explanation...
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Your take is a common beard pullers trope.
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IMO, any rating that has it above Old MacDonald and Bandon Trails has over rated it. I have never seen it rated higher than Pacific Dunes, so that is not an issue.
Sheep Ranch is the weak sister, and I too wish I had been to the original.
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Just because a certain course is “liked” more than another course doesn’t necessarily mean it is better. Rankings (at least the ones depicting what are supposed to be the best golf courses) are not a listing of what panelists “like” the most. They are are a listing of what they think are the best golf designs. A list of favorite courses is very different than a list of the best courses.
I know a number of the guys I sometimes play with who would not like Pine Valley for example. It would just be too hard for them and not a lot of fun. It would not be high on their favorite list to play on a regular basis. Most would give up the game and play Pickelball :)
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[size=78%]Just because a certain course is “liked” more than another course doesn’t necessarily mean it is better. Rankings (at least the ones depicting what are supposed to be the best golf courses) are not a listing of what panelists “like” the most. They are are a listing of what they think are the best golf designs. A list of favorite courses is very different than a list of the best courses. [/size]
I know a number of the guys I sometimes play with who would not like Pine Valley for example. It would just be too hard for them and not a lot of fun. It would not be high on their favorite list to play on a regular basis. Most would give up the game and play Pickelball :)
Raters know how much they are allowed to like something before they ever set foot on property. What a sad way to search for something to love.
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[size=78%]Just because a certain course is “liked” more than another course doesn’t necessarily mean it is better. Rankings (at least the ones depicting what are supposed to be the best golf courses) are not a listing of what panelists “like” the most. They are are a listing of what they think are the best golf designs. A list of favorite courses is very different than a list of the best courses. [/size]
I know a number of the guys I sometimes play with who would not like Pine Valley for example. It would just be too hard for them and not a lot of fun. It would not be high on their favorite list to play on a regular basis. Most would give up the game and play Pickelball :)
Mark,
I agree, and that is why I listed my favorite, most fun, best course - they all are great and worth the travel distance to play.
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IMO, any rating that has it above Old MacDonald and Bandon Trails has over rated it. I have never seen it rated higher than Pacific Dunes, so that is not an issue.
Sheep Ranch is the weak sister, and I too wish I had been to the original.
Boy you wouldn't like my ratings (i.e. personal preference) ;)
Credit to Keiser, the resort, and the archies for continuing to add diverse experiences that bring something new to the place. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Some of those things are part of what we experience between the first and last tee shot, and some are not. When I visit Bandon I tend to break up those experiences into half days as many others might when doing 36 holes per day.
BD comes with the experience / convenience of a meal yards from the first tee and even a sauna after the round. Plus the very special first tee feeling of teeing off / coming in to the lodge to start/end the day. The course may not have the best set of holes start to finish, but certainly nothing offensive either. It's also often the best conditioned of the courses and overall makes for a wonderful 4.5 hours on course plus more before/after.
PD has maybe the best architecture out there
BT likewise, plus the change of scenery and peaceful nature walk experience
OM may struggle in this regard actually, but I also think it is wholly unique as a golf course
SR may have the most dramatic coastal experience on the property even without the dunes and flashes of sand
Each bring something to the table and when a course has the ability to standout on its own in one's mind it can be held in high regard.
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Having been to the resort 9-10 times over 20+ years, I’ve had this discussion with others (and myself) many times. My lodestar in thinking about this or other courses is “Is it fun while presenting enough—but not too much—challenge?” (Pacific Dunes is one of my favorite courses anywhere because it hits my fun and challenge buttons perfectly.) In my opinion Bandon Dunes has improved over the years in this regard. It’s gone through a lot of softening over the years. The gorse was really intimidating and some holes like 4-5 and 16 almost unplayable in wind in its early days. Who likes that? Now the gorse has been cut way back and that’s made the course, while still challenging, doable for most players and in my opinion a lot more fun to play.
My first ever round at the resort was on Bandon Dunes, and I will never forget reaching the dogleg on the fourth hole for the fantastic Pacific Ocean reveal. That’s part of BD’s charm—the anticipation builds as you play holes 1-3, hearing the constant wave action, and then again through holes 7-11 and 13-14. The ocean holes aside, I find Bandon Dunes is solid if not spectacular. Comparing it to other courses, I do think Bandon Dunes enjoys some cache from its location at the resort and the ocean effect. However, Bandon Dunes is anything but a reliever course. There’s plenty of challenge especially when there is wind as usual, and fun to be had tacking to navigate holes like #10 and #14, avoiding the chasms short of #2 and #15 and to the right of #7, #13 and #17, and the #8 carry bunkers (are they still there?). The 9th and 18th holes are rather bland, for sure, and they detract. I also have never liked #16 despite its “signature hole” status. Maybe fun for a better player but I’ve always found it to be a strange golf hole.
In the end of course it’s a matter of personal preference and associated playing skill (or lack thereof), the latter of which changes day to day and trip to trip. But to say Bandon Dunes is “overrated”? Probably not, at least to me. I think it is “inferior” to the other courses on the property except for Sheep Ranch, which in a couple plays I found pretty boring and repetitive. However, Bandon Dunes is a very fine golf course that I enjoy playing every time I am at the resort—moreso even than Bandon Trails, which I find just too damn hard anymore. Bandon Dunes is different from the others on the property, but that is a good thing and from a golf course architecture standpoint part of the reason it deserves its rating IMO.
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I think overrated is certainly not the proper description that comes to mind on any of Bandon's courses. It is like Miss Universe, whoever finishes 10th will still induce whiplash. I think let's celebrate it as opposed to really waste effort arguing if it is #50 and should be #85. It is a great course. As we don't have old historical links courses like the UK then we can create them better late than never.
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The OP has a legit question that I’ve asked myself many times before. His curiosity stems from wondering why a course so revered never gets plaudits.
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I think overrated is certainly not the proper description that comes to mind on any of Bandon's courses. It is like Miss Universe, whoever finishes 10th will still induce whiplash. I think let's celebrate it as opposed to really waste effort arguing if it is #50 and should be #85. It is a great course. As we don't have old historical links courses like the UK then we can create them better late than never.
Jeff
Have you played the Streamsong and Sand Valley layouts? I'm keen how you (or anyone else) views BD in relation to them?
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Is 1 and 2 the worst 2 hole stretch at the resort?
Didn’t appear to be any sophistication in routi by or shaping to indicate you are playing a top 1,000 course.
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I think overrated is certainly not the proper description that comes to mind on any of Bandon's courses. It is like Miss Universe, whoever finishes 10th will still induce whiplash. I think let's celebrate it as opposed to really waste effort arguing if it is #50 and should be #85. It is a great course. As we don't have old historical links courses like the UK then we can create them better late than never.
Jeff
Have you played the Streamsong and Sand Valley layouts? I'm keen how you (or anyone else) views BD in relation to them?
I have played SV but not SS. My 2 cents, is that SV/MD are much grander and feeling of seclusion with some trees. The greens at BD I think are better than either layout at SV. The width off the tees for SV/MD make it easier off the tee. Of course with BD being a links and exposed to weather even 15-20 mph winds really make it difficult for us amateurs.
Separate from the golf, the views at BD really are great and adds to your day regardless of what you shot.
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Each bring something to the table and when a course has the ability to standout on its own in one's mind it can be held in high regard.
The original four courses are all standout. My quibble is simply the order they appear in ratings.
Sheep Ranch stands out in my mind for not being sand based. Such a "stand out" does not equate to "high regard". I'd rather play Bandon Crossings.
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I have no idea why people disparage the first two holes at the OG. Knowing that they would build away from the buildings, and knowing that the buildings would not take up precious cliffside land, they built two challenging holes that should remind anyone of a linksy hole that climbs a rise.
I don't know what the opening holes were supposed to be like, before they acquired the additional land. It would be interesting to see an original routing.
I'd love to know more about what some think makes them lesser holes. Building into and along a rise must be challenging, especially when you need to use the land. A similar course that comes to mind is the OG at Arcadia Bluffs. Uphill par five (par four at Bandon Dunes) followed by a downhill par three (uphill par three at Bandon Dunes.) I'll rank the BD opening duo over the AB pair, but each served a purpose.
I don't know that there is a bad hole at the resort, much less a bad stretch.
Is 1 and 2 the worst 2 hole stretch at the resort?
Didn’t appear to be any sophistication in routi by or shaping to indicate you are playing a top 1,000 course.
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Does BD benefit from the 9th returning to the house? I wouldn’t think so.
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It has been eleven years this week since my last trip to Bandon. The only thing that has demonstrably changed in that time is the construction and opening of Sheep Ranch.
Bandon Dunes would probably look a bit different to you today than it did 11 years ago. There's been a ton of gorse removal, the remaining bunkers have been completely reworked and a number have been removed or moved. The 2nd hole has a completely different look, with the grass hillside on the left replaced by a gaping bunker. 6 looks very different with a catch bunker on the left as opposed to the grass runway to the cliff. 8 has a very different bunker scheme, with the half horseshoe pretty much replaced by a center line bunker right in the landing zone and the DZ bunkers on 9 have been reworked. One of the left side bunkers on 11 was removed, making a drive at the green much more of an option. The bunkers on the right side of 14 were enlarged creating more danger on that side. The DA at 15 was moved to the right and is smaller, removing perhaps the most iconic bunker on the course. The fairway bunker on 17 was filled in. All of these changes were made to soften the course a bit, and included the removal of the left side bumps on 15 which used to carom certain shots onto the green. Today, the newer grass on that side acts like a speed slot which sends any shot off the green on the left into the hazard behind
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Is 1 and 2 the worst 2 hole stretch at the resort?
Tell me you haven't played Sheep Ranch without saying it.
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It has been eleven years this week since my last trip to Bandon. The only thing that has demonstrably changed in that time is the construction and opening of Sheep Ranch.
Bandon Dunes would probably look a bit different to you today than it did 11 years ago. There's been a ton of gorse removal, the remaining bunkers have been completely reworked and a number have been removed or moved. The 2nd hole has a completely different look, with the grass hillside on the left replaced by a gaping bunker. 6 looks very different with a catch bunker on the left as opposed to the grass runway to the cliff. 8 has a very different bunker scheme, with the half horseshoe pretty much replaced by a center line bunker right in the landing zone and the DZ bunkers on 9 have been reworked. One of the left side bunkers on 11 was removed, making a drive at the green much more of an option. The bunkers on the right side of 14 were enlarged creating more danger on that side. The DA at 15 was moved to the right and is smaller, removing perhaps the most iconic bunker on the course. The fairway bunker on 17 was filled in. All of these changes were made to soften the course a bit, and included the removal of the left side bumps on 15 which used to carom certain shots onto the green. Today, the newer grass on that side acts like a speed slot which sends any shot off the green on the left into the hazard behind
Sorry Sven, while I acknowledge the point, I’ll stand by what I said. I would expect incremental changes and steady marginal gains to occur. Is that enough to demonstrably change the course as it compares to its teammates? I’d argue not. It has long been my contention that BD is the most conventional course at the resort and for that reason it deserves attention but not devotion. I need to see if SR changes that feeling.
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I don't know what the opening holes were supposed to be like, before they acquired the additional land. It would be interesting to see an original routing.
I'd love to know more about what some think makes them lesser holes. Building into and along a rise must be challenging, especially when you need to use the land. A similar course that comes to mind is the OG at Arcadia Bluffs. Uphill par five (par four at Bandon Dunes) followed by a downhill par three (uphill par three at Bandon Dunes.) I'll rank the BD opening duo over the AB pair, but each served a purpose.
I don't know how the routing for all of the front nine worked, but 1-2-3 at Bandon Dunes were the original routing Bruce Hepner and I saw when I first went out there in 1995 or 96. After that it went into ten-foot-tall gorse and it was hard to understand.
Also, comparing those two holes to two poor holes on the overrated Arcadia Bluffs, is a sign of your argument's weakness, not strength.
I've always thought #1 was okay, although the uphill approach is not ideal. I've always thought #2 was one of the worst holes at the resort, although I have not seen the newest iteration. I cannot think of an uphill par-3 like that on any links course in the UK that I like. I guess the 12th at Ballybunion is uphill, but it's also much scarier, and much closer to the ocean.
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I've always enjoyed the 17th at BD. Is it still universally hated in the community of experts? If so, why?
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I've always thought #1 was okay, although the uphill approach is not ideal.
Are we talking about Friars Head? Just kidding, but I’ve heard very few complain about it
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It has been eleven years this week since my last trip to Bandon. The only thing that has demonstrably changed in that time is the construction and opening of Sheep Ranch.
Bandon Dunes would probably look a bit different to you today than it did 11 years ago. There's been a ton of gorse removal, the remaining bunkers have been completely reworked and a number have been removed or moved. The 2nd hole has a completely different look, with the grass hillside on the left replaced by a gaping bunker. 6 looks very different with a catch bunker on the left as opposed to the grass runway to the cliff. 8 has a very different bunker scheme, with the half horseshoe pretty much replaced by a center line bunker right in the landing zone and the DZ bunkers on 9 have been reworked. One of the left side bunkers on 11 was removed, making a drive at the green much more of an option. The bunkers on the right side of 14 were enlarged creating more danger on that side. The DA at 15 was moved to the right and is smaller, removing perhaps the most iconic bunker on the course. The fairway bunker on 17 was filled in. All of these changes were made to soften the course a bit, and included the removal of the left side bumps on 15 which used to carom certain shots onto the green. Today, the newer grass on that side acts like a speed slot which sends any shot off the green on the left into the hazard behind
Sorry Sven, while I acknowledge the point, I’ll stand by what I said. I would expect incremental changes and steady marginal gains to occur. Is that enough to demonstrably change the course as it compares to its teammates? I’d argue not. It has long been my contention that BD is the most conventional course at the resort and for that reason it deserves attention but not devotion. I need to see if SR changes that feeling.
Ben:
All I was saying is that the course is different than it was 11 years ago. There was no comment in my statement about whether or not the changes were for the better (other than perhaps what I said about 15). You'll have to make that call for yourself when you get back here.
Not sure what exactly you mean by conventional. There are a ton of guests who note how comfortable they feel playing Trails because it reminds them of other courses they've played. Perhaps Trails is the most conventional in that sense.
There was an intentional effort made for the first course to make it "approachable." As Tom and others have pointed out, Mr. Keiser has a very conservative approach to his business. BD was meant to be the vanilla to the other flavors that would come later.
Sven
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I noticed the building on one isn’t in play as I remembered. What changed?
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I've always enjoyed the 17th at BD. Is it still universally hated in the community of experts? If so, why?
I know some expert types who really like the hole and think of it as one of the better ones on the course. It always seemed a bit out of place to me, because of the forced carry over the hazard that was tight to the green. It just didn't feel as linksy as the rest. I guess I also don't like the layup to a blind hazard with a catch bunker that saves you from that hazard. I played it in a competition once and just did the bomb and gouge way to the left off the tee and it seemed like I was breaking the hole a bit.
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I played it in a competition once and just did the bomb and gouge way to the left off the tee and it seemed like I was breaking the hole a bit.
Sweet. Like at St. Andrews.
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The OP seemed focused on whether BD is overrated relative to all courses, not just those at the resort. I made my view known in a prior post, but the subsequent posts led me to the question: is there another course ranked in the Top 50 in the US for which posters would identify so many so-so holes?
And as previously stated, I think it is a very good course.
Ira
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I don't know if Bandon Dunes is overrated.
Does the frequently changing weather one might catch in Bandon on that day have an impact on people's opinion of a course? My one play of BD was in the worst weather conditions I've ever played in- and I grew up in the Northeast. How can I reasonably make an assessment off that play, as compared to PD or BT or anywhere else? I suspect that is the case for a lot of the resort-specific rankings by people.
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The OP seemed focused on whether BD is overrated relative to all courses, not just those at the resort. I made my view known in a prior post, but the subsequent posts led me to the question: is there another course ranked in the Top 50 in the US for which posters would identify so many so-so holes?
Ira
Honestly, on this website Pebble Beach might be nominated.
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I noticed the building on one isn’t in play as I remembered. What changed?
You got older, thereby effectively putting more things out of play due to your short knocking.
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The OP seemed focused on whether BD is overrated relative to all courses, not just those at the resort. I made my view known in a prior post, but the subsequent posts led me to the question: is there another course ranked in the Top 50 in the US for which posters would identify so many so-so holes?
Ira
Honestly, on this website Pebble Beach might be nominated.
Well the inland holes do leave much to be desired compared to the best in world stretches along the coast. But taken as a whole, the highs are so incredibly good it raises it to top 10 which I agree with. The real GCA aspect of Pebble the public doesn't realize is the tiny greens really make it unique and add to the difficulty as we see each 10 years during the US Open.
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classic dumb topic
thank you to Sven and TD for chiming in
folks are now booking tee times for 2024 if they can ::)
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I noticed the building on one isn’t in play as I remembered. What changed?
You got older, thereby effectively putting more things out of play due to your short knocking.
I could hit a 220 yd straight ball my entire life. I finally got smart enough to embrace it.
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classic dumb topic
thank you to Sven and TD for chiming in
folks are now booking tee times for 2024 if they can ::)
I don't know the footprint of how much land the Keiser's own there. Is there room for another course? I assume there is. In the plan?
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classic dumb topic
thank you to Sven and TD for chiming in
folks are now booking tee times for 2024 if they can ::)
I don't know the footprint of how much land the Keiser's own there. Is there room for another course? I assume there is. In the plan?
There's another par 3 course planned for the land to the west of the first three holes at Trails and New River Dunes will be a DM Kidd project. That land is a good bit south of the town of Bandon and not on what you would consider the resort property. From all accounts, those are it for future Bandon course projects.
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Goodness gracious, Bandon fans remind me of Bama fans. Relax, it’s still the GOAT golf resort. No one, not St Andrews, Pinehurst, or anywhere else new or old has the quality of courses across the board that Bandon has in one geographic spot under one ownership roof. It’s simply a breathtakingly impressive project after all these years.
The OG course at Bandon being overrated in some people’s minds doesn’t mean it’s dog food. It’s clearly a very good golf course.
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I first went to Bandon in 1998. The Pacific Coast Am was at Eugene CC and they bused the officials all down to play BD. We couldn’t play #1 as it had just been seeded. We then played 2&3 and our caddie, who had been driven around the course that morning, tried to take us to #9 next. Fortunately they he given us a paper map and we found our way to 4. The back 9 had been built first and was more complete. When we played 2, the only tees were the ones to the right of the first green.
I went back that October to do the USGA Course Rating and got to play it two more times. They had built the lower tees on 2. I always liked the upper tees more, although I’d have to say it is a pretty unique hole from down below.
Between then and 2011, I went back many times. It is interesting to see that they have opened up the course more since then as the difference between 1998 and 2011 in terms of playability was huge. Holes like 6 were unplayable if you missed the green back then.
The only hole I’ve never been a fan of is 15 as I think that it required a high soft landing target oriented shot which was almost impossible to get to hold the green when it was downwind and the ball would run over the green and into the penalty area back left too easily.
I’m Going back in March for the first time since 2011 so I’m interested to see how it and all the other courses have evolved.
I don’t think BD is overrated. I think Trails is underrated but the others are about right. It is my favorite with Pacific being next and OM and BD being pretty equal although I’ve only played Om a couple of times. Trail suffers in the ratings because it isn’t on the coast so you don’t have the dramatic holes like 16 on BD or 4 on PD.
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The OP seemed focused on whether BD is overrated relative to all courses, not just those at the resort. I made my view known in a prior post, but the subsequent posts led me to the question: is there another course ranked in the Top 50 in the US for which posters would identify so many so-so holes?
Ira
That's my point - I think BD is a bit of a sacred cow in the world of golf.
It debuted in US Golf Magazine World Top100 back in 1999 at 80 and had a few years in the 50-60 range before dropping back to 80 in the most recent results.
Streamsong has opened Blue, Red, Black and none of them have cracked that Top100. I'd argue all 3 are better than BD but it consistently ranks ahead of them.
Both US Golf Digest & Golf Magazine have had BD imbedded inside their respective US Top 50's ever since it opened. Digest has pretty much solidified it inside it's Top40.
IMO it is a good course not a great course hence my Qs.
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Kevin,
In my book, SS Blue is seriously underrated period. The 12-18 stretch is world class, and number 8 is a brilliant hole. The two “weakest” holes—10 and 11–are still very solid. So yes, I think BD is overrated relative to SS Blue. I also think the same about SS Red which has two great stretches of holes: 2-7 and 11-16. I am not a fan of 8-10 although I know many people here disagree with me especially about number 8. BD is a better course than SS Black. I thought that the routing of Black to be quite good especially the variety of holes, but the overwhelming bunkering and size of the greens (especially on the front) detracted from the overall quality.
Your questions strike me as on point although I am in the camp that rankings are subjective best serving for providing over drinks conversation and of course threads on here. And so as you note, BD is a very good course regardless of its place in the rankings.
Ira
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Seems as good a place as any to list my order of favorites based on respective architecture. I would first point out that all five courses are "Great", so this is really splitting hairs between them, with a slight drop off for the last, in my opinion.
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Sheep Ranch
Bandon Dunes
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NO
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NO
I’ll concur in this wise man’s judgment.
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Not a knock against any of the courses, but if I were to return, I might spend the bulk of my time playing Pacific Dunes and trails. I enjoyed them the most.
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I was a bit behind JVDB and was (I believe) the first unaffiliated golfer to putt on #1. Prior to this I had taken multiple trips to Scotland, England and a bit of Ireland and Wales. 36 holes with caddy and the only player on the course. I was blown away, especially by 4-6 and 12-17. Top 25. If how you played affects how you rate, it jumps up a bit as the shot result is much more predictable than the other courses at the resort. Personally I have it lodged behind PD and PT because of the ground game. Being able to see and pull off a particular shot is more satisfying on the later two[size=78%].[/size]
It might have slipped a tad with the changes listed it is still ranked appropriately.
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Pete,
I love the term “unaffiliated golfer”, what does it mean?
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It's perennially rated in the Top100 courses in the World.
Both Golf Digest / Golf Magazine have it in their Top50 courses in the USA. It always seems to be rated ahead of the Streamsong and Sand Valley group of courses.
Is the original course at Bandon overrated? Why? Why not? What's so good / not so good about it?
The only constant with rating the Bandon courses is that your opinion will change over time.
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Not a knock against any of the courses, but if I were to return, I might spend the bulk of my time playing Pacific Dunes and trails. I enjoyed them the most.
Resembles my last two visits with the exception of some time on Old Mac.
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When I return I will play everything but the Trails - I just did not fully appreciate the elevation changes through the hills so close to magnificent ocean links golf. I must admit to liking Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Old Mac fairly equally.
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I have not been to Bandon Dunes. But I wish to extend the question because of my lack of knowledge:
Is Bandon Dunes (the resort i.e. all 5 courses) overrated?
I ask this because it is the only resort in the world with 3 / 4 / 5 courses continually knocking on a World Top-100 list? It’s clear that the courses are uniformly excellent, even great. But does the fact that most people consider them reasonably close in quality and difficult to separate result in the feeling that “if one is Top-20, they must all be Top-100”?
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Is Bandon Dunes (the resort i.e. all 5 courses) overrated?
I ask this because it is the only resort in the world with 3 / 4 / 5 courses continually knocking on a World Top-100 list? It’s clear that the courses are uniformly excellent, even great. But does the fact that most people consider them reasonably close in quality and difficult to separate result in the feeling that “if one is Top-20, they must all be Top-100”?
Ally:
That's a good question and I am not sure anyone can really answer it. There is certainly a large divergence of opinion as to how resort guests rate the five, and that might drag up the rankings of the 3rd or 4th best course at the resort, whatever it should be. For certain, the initial ranking of Bandon Dunes by GOLFWEEK as the #2 modern course [which, most would agree now, was an overrating] made it easier for Pacific Dunes to get to where it is, because if the panelists liked it better than Bandon, there was only one place it could go.
The truth is that for most panelists, there are many "games within a game" going on in their head when they try to rank courses. Many of them have unwritten quotas for how many courses they should vote for in a particular state or country or region; what is the ceiling for any particular architect, and so on. [And you've got to, to some extent: anyone who put fifteen Seth Raynor courses in their top 100 would be rightly accused of having a narrow vision of what's great.]
You can verify this by noting that when I have a new course enter the top 100 [St. Patrick's], some of my other courses fall a few notches, on the theory that if St. Patrick's is their favorite course of mine, then Pacific Dunes must not be quite as good as they thought before, and Old Macdonald maybe shouldn't be in the top 100, even though nothing about those courses has changed to warrant their moving up or down.
So, a background question in the rankings for the courses in Bandon is whether Bandon Dunes is one of David Kidd's best courses; whether Bandon Trails and The Sheep Ranch are two of Coore & Crenshaw's best; and whether Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald are two of my best. My guess is that's probably why three of them [one for each] wind up in the top 100 in the world, and the other two only in the top 100 in America.
[Old Macdonald, funnily enough, also gets compared to the best of Macdonald and Raynor's work, and the fact that it's also a real links course and the only one in that class bumps it up a bit. I suspect the same will be true for Lido once the votes are in.]
I have always wondered if there were a blind taste test of all these courses, with no architect labels and no concerns for geography, how places like Bandon Dunes and Barnbougle and Lost Farm and Paraparaumu Beach would stand up against not just Dornoch and Lahinch, but Machrihanish and Deal and other British links that don't make the top 100 lists. Supposedly, that's what the lists are all about, but I have heard too many panelists' rationalizations for their votes to think that it's all just one big playing field.
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Is Bandon Dunes (the resort i.e. all 5 courses) overrated?
I ask this because it is the only resort in the world with 3 / 4 / 5 courses continually knocking on a World Top-100 list? It’s clear that the courses are uniformly excellent, even great. But does the fact that most people consider them reasonably close in quality and difficult to separate result in the feeling that “if one is Top-20, they must all be Top-100”?
Ally:
That's a good question and I am not sure anyone can really answer it. There is certainly a large divergence of opinion as to how resort guests rate the five, and that might drag up the rankings of the 3rd or 4th best course at the resort, whatever it should be. For certain, the initial ranking of Bandon Dunes by GOLFWEEK as the #2 modern course [which, most would agree now, was an overrating] made it easier for Pacific Dunes to get to where it is, because if the panelists liked it better than Bandon, there was only one place it could go.
The truth is that for most panelists, there are many "games within a game" going on in their head when they try to rank courses. Many of them have unwritten quotas for how many courses they should vote for in a particular state or country or region; what is the ceiling for any particular architect, and so on. [And you've got to, to some extent: anyone who put fifteen Seth Raynor courses in their top 100 would be rightly accused of having a narrow vision of what's great.]
You can verify this by noting that when I have a new course enter the top 100 [St. Patrick's], some of my other courses fall a few notches, on the theory that if St. Patrick's is their favorite course of mine, then Pacific Dunes must not be quite as good as they thought before, and Old Macdonald maybe shouldn't be in the top 100, even though nothing about those courses has changed to warrant their moving up or down.
So, a background question in the rankings for the courses in Bandon is whether Bandon Dunes is one of David Kidd's best courses; whether Bandon Trails and The Sheep Ranch are two of Coore & Crenshaw's best; and whether Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald are two of my best. My guess is that's probably why three of them [one for each] wind up in the top 100 in the world, and the other two only in the top 100 in America.
[Old Macdonald, funnily enough, also gets compared to the best of Macdonald and Raynor's work, and the fact that it's also a real links course and the only one in that class bumps it up a bit. I suspect the same will be true for Lido once the votes are in.]
I have always wondered if there were a blind taste test of all these courses, with no architect labels and no concerns for geography, how places like Bandon Dunes and Barnbougle and Lost Farm and Paraparaumu Beach would stand up against not just Dornoch and Lahinch, but Machrihanish and Deal and other British links that don't make the top 100 lists. Supposedly, that's what the lists are all about, but I have heard too many panelists' rationalizations for their votes to think that it's all just one big playing field.
Tom, for me the bottom line is 100 is an artificial and meaningless number. If we are talking about 100 it could easily be 100 other courses that could be top 100. The marketing of 100 has skewed the complexity of comparing and contrasting with an open mind. It really shouldn't be the case that a rater likes all the courses they vote for as top 100.
Ciao
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Tom, for me the bottom line is 100 is an artificial and meaningless number. If we are talking about 100 it could easily be 100 other courses that could be top 100. The marketing of 100 has skewed the complexity of comparing and contrasting with an open mind. It really shouldn't be the case that a rater likes all the courses they vote for as top 100.
Agreed!
When we expanded the GOLF Magazine list to 100, I actually suggested starting at 85 [or whatever year it was], and expanding by two more spots each year, to make room for new entries without having to bump another course off. If they had gone with that suggestion they would be rating the top 123 now!
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Tom, for me the bottom line is 100 is an artificial and meaningless number. If we are talking about 100 it could easily be 100 other courses that could be top 100. The marketing of 100 has skewed the complexity of comparing and contrasting with an open mind. It really shouldn't be the case that a rater likes all the courses they vote for as top 100.
Agreed!
When we expanded the GOLF Magazine list to 100, I actually suggested starting at 85 [or whatever year it was], and expanding by two more spots each year, to make room for new entries without having to bump another course off. If they had gone with that suggestion they would be rating the top 123 now!
But I don't think it should be a specific number. It should be something like the last course listed can't be more than X rating score behind #1 and there should be a natural break off. A significant gap between courses. Si the number could 89 one year and 121 a few years later. Would also prefer grouping with significant gaps between groups. Where a course is listed within a group is really just for convenience. What is important is that the panel is claiming all the courses in the higher group are better than the next group down. A group could be 1 course or whatever. I don't think it would be that many groups before it's obvious the scores have drifted significantly from the highest group.
The way systems now is far too clean to fit reality. Too much shading is lost for the sake of an easy marketing number.
Ciao
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The way systems now is far too clean to fit reality. Too much shading is lost for the sake of an easy marketing number.
Blame the Egyptians.
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Tom, for me the bottom line is 100 is an artificial and meaningless number. If we are talking about 100 it could easily be 100 other courses that could be top 100. The marketing of 100 has skewed the complexity of comparing and contrasting with an open mind. It really shouldn't be the case that a rater likes all the courses they vote for as top 100.
Agreed!
When we expanded the GOLF Magazine list to 100, I actually suggested starting at 85 [or whatever year it was], and expanding by two more spots each year, to make room for new entries without having to bump another course off. If they had gone with that suggestion they would be rating the top 123 now!
But I don't think it should be a specific number. It should be something like the last course listed can't be more than X rating score behind #1 and there should be a natural break off. A significant gap between courses. Si the number could 89 one year and 121 a few years later. Would also prefer grouping with significant gaps between groups. Where a course is listed within a group is really just for convenience. What is important is that the panel is claiming all the courses in the higher group are better than the next group down. A group could be 1 course or whatever. I don't think it would be that many groups before it's obvious the scores have drifted significantly from the highest group.
The way systems now is far too clean to fit reality. Too much shading is lost for the sake of an easy marketing number.
Ciao
Sean great idea, your on it! Someone could do this themselves by putting the actual scores into statistics software and you can customize your rating based on that. Where you have statistically significant gaps you can separate them into tiers. I haven't even seen the scoring myself, but with the numbers it can be done easily.
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I too think Sean is on to something.
How about something akin to a list of the top courses, listed in alphabetical order by DS rating. For example:
List of 10s
Then 9s
Then 8s.
And if that total number works out to be 157 or whatever, then so be it.
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Kalen,
If you use that methodology and agree with the four CG raters, BD would be somewhere in the 80s in the US and the lowest of the four courses at Bandon (Sheep Ranch in its current form did not exist at the time of publication).
The DS numbers are in the back of each volume if you ever want to create a spreadsheet.
Ira
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I too think Sean is on to something.
How about something akin to a list of the top courses, listed in alphabetical order by DS rating. For example:
List of 10s
Then 9s
Then 8s.
And if that total number works out to be 157 or whatever, then so be it.
I have long disliked DS being used the same as ranking. I never got the impression the two were interchangeable when reading any of the books.
Ciao
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I too think Sean is on to something.
How about something akin to a list of the top courses, listed in alphabetical order by DS rating. For example:
List of 10s
Then 9s
Then 8s.
And if that total number works out to be 157 or whatever, then so be it.
I have long disliked DS being used the same as ranking. I never got the impression the two were interchangeable when reading any of the books.
Ciao
Agreed as the Doak Score doesn’t tell you which is the highest rated 7,8 or 9.
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Wait so its not obviously implicit that a 10 is ranked higher than a 7? I mean the descriptions pretty well do that
7 - An excellent course if within 100 miles, but not necessarily anything unique.
vs
10 - Nearly perfect, you would miss something if you missed just one hole.
That's why I've always really liked it as a hybrid rating system because its a good way to apply a relative rating, without needing to split hairs why a DS 10 like Pine valley is better than CPC, or to limit oneself to top 50, 100, or whatever.
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Wait so its not obviously implicit that a 10 is ranked higher than a 7? I mean the descriptions pretty well do that
7 - An excellent course if within 100 miles, but not necessarily anything unique.
vs
10 - Nearly perfect, you would miss something if you missed just one hole.
That's why I've always really liked it as a hybrid rating system because its a good way to apply a relative rating, without needing to split hairs why a DS 10 like Pine valley is better than CPC, or to limit oneself to top 50, 100, or whatever.
Kalen-My point was that there is nothing to differentiate all the 7’s as an example. Like Sean I’m good with that.
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Wait so its not obviously implicit that a 10 is ranked higher than a 7? I mean the descriptions pretty well do that
7 - An excellent course if within 100 miles, but not necessarily anything unique.
vs
10 - Nearly perfect, you would miss something if you missed just one hole.
That's why I've always really liked it as a hybrid rating system because its a good way to apply a relative rating, without needing to split hairs why a DS 10 like Pine valley is better than CPC, or to limit oneself to top 50, 100, or whatever.
Kalen-My point was that that is nothing to differentiate all the 7’s as an example. Like Sean I’m good with that.
Yes, I can certainly agree on that point, I'd think its better to just list them
If GD or Golf Magazine or Golf Week wanted to avoid controversy and provide a more honest assessment of courses they would not try differentiate two courses with same DS rating. I don't know how well received Michelin is, but getting a 1, 2, or 3 star rating seems to work well enough.
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My point was the DS is specific for travel advice as evidenced by the travel language. They are recommendations, not rankings. Doak started to use DS as a convenient way to quickly express his points and gradually the DS came to be used as rankings. This never sat well with me, but maybe the two are interchangeable. Only Doak knows for sure. Which is another reason not to use the DS...its his system and as such will incorporate his bias as he sees them for recommendations. The score for Castle Course is evidence of this. There is no way a 0 score translates to the quality of the course. It's considerably better than loads of courses with higher scores.
Ciao
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My point was the DS is specific for travel advice as evidenced by the travel language. They are recommendations, not rankings. Doak started to use DS as a convenient way to quickly express his points and gradually the DS came to be used as rankings. This never sat well with me, but maybe the two are interchangeable. Only Doak knows for sure. Which is another reason not to use the DS...its his system and as such will incorporate his bias as he sees them for recommendations. The score for Castle Course is evidence of this. There is no way a 0 score translates to the quality of the course. It's considerably better than loads of courses with higher scores.
Ciao
Sean,
Have you read the book 'The Seventh at St Andrews'? its a worthwhile read and well written which focuses on the design and build journey of the course plus the 4 main people involved in it. I have met two of them already and both are doing very well now.
I have not played it however judging it from other comments, reading the book and aerial images surely it is a lot better than a DS 0.
Cheers
Ben
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The Castle Course is a very good course. It has a couple of issues but it is way better than many of the alternatives that could have been built on that site.
I understand why Tom gave it a zero but Sean’s point is well made using it as an example.
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What were the reasons that Castle Course was given a DS 0?
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What were the reasons that Castle Course was given a DS 0?
"0
A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that waste ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn't have been built in the first place."
It fits and the resultant controversy can't have hurt the publicity for the book launch! ;)
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What were the reasons that Castle Course was given a DS 0?
"0
A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that waste ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn't have been built in the first place."
It fits and the resultant controversy can't have hurt the publicity for the book launch! ;)
Thank you Tony. Looks like your team is heading into the new year as no.1 team in the world ;)
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Just to be clear,
I'm advocating that the DS be used as a template to establish a more effective system of ranking/rating/evaluating courses and putting them in a list....not that Tom's personal ratings be the only ones on the list. I'm guessing even he wouldn't advocate that! ;D
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I think overrated is certainly not the proper description that comes to mind on any of Bandon's courses. It is like Miss Universe, whoever finishes 10th will still induce whiplash. I think let's celebrate it as opposed to really waste effort arguing if it is #50 and should be #85. It is a great course. As we don't have old historical links courses like the UK then we can create them better late than never.
Jeff
Have you played the Streamsong and Sand Valley layouts? I'm keen how you (or anyone else) views BD in relation to them?
I have played SV but not SS. My 2 cents, is that SV/MD are much grander and feeling of seclusion with some trees. The greens at BD I think are better than either layout at SV. The width off the tees for SV/MD make it easier off the tee. Of course with BD being a links and exposed to weather even 15-20 mph winds really make it difficult for us amateurs.
Separate from the golf, the views at BD really are great and adds to your day regardless of what you shot.
Last year, got to Sand Valley for the first time and I am so grateful to have had the chance to see Cabot as well and I have been to Streamsong and Bandon many times.
Bandon is the only place in that I dream about and that still gives me goosebumps when I book a trip or drive up to the lodge. And walking onto the 16th green at Bandon Dunes at golden hour on the day I get there knocks some years off every time. It’s not underrated, it’s Dream Golf. It’s not all about the shots, a whole lot of it is about the walking.
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Bandon is a marvel. Keiser went against convention and the advice of people "in the know." He built a walking-only resort three hours from an airport. It took me three flights to get there on Delta. He hired an unknown to design the course. He could have built a private club that folks would have spent many $s to join. That is visionary thinking that few have or would try.
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The new Top 100 rankings have Bandon Dunes at #73 in the world, ahead of Bandon Trails at #75.
https://www.top100golfcourses.com/top-100-golf-courses-of-the-world?page=10
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No, it's the course I most look forward to playing at the Resort.
Not even a tiny bit overrated.
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Is Bandon Dunes (the resort i.e. all 5 courses) overrated?
No, I think the resort as a whole is fantastic. It is probably the best place that I have been where you get such great golf courses without ever having to leave the resort.
I think some missed my OP - I was referring to the BD course not the resort. Reading through the thread its clear that I am not alone with those thoughts.
I believe every course that has opened since it more than outshines it.
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Is Bandon Dunes (the resort i.e. all 5 courses) overrated?
No, I think the resort as a whole is fantastic. It is probably the best place that I have been where you get such great golf courses without ever having to leave the resort.
I think some missed my OP - I was referring to the BD course not the resort. Reading through the thread its clear that I am not alone with those thoughts.
I believe every course that has opened since it more than outshines it.
As someone who hears guest rankings of the courses on a frequent basis, BD is generally closer to the top of those lists than the bottom.
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Sven,
We were sorry to miss you on our visit a few months ago. Here is my take in a slightly different form from earlier postings in this thread:
Given the site, BT is simply brilliant. Regardless of the site, it is one of the best courses I have played.
Given the site, PD is brilliant. My guess is that most golfers do not appreciate how few holes actually are on the ocean. Nor that several of the best holes are not on the ocean.
Given the site, OM is impressive because of the homage mandate.
Given the site, Sheep Ranch is enjoyable and scenic.
Given the site, BD is very good but not great.
Ira
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Ira:
The major knock on Trails is that the course doesn’t really change depending on where the pins are located. There are very few to no instances of adjusting your line off the tee to create a better angle. You get that in spades at Old Mac and Bandon.
The biggest challenge at Trails is accepting where the fat part of the fairway actually lies without succumbing to C&C’s visual tricks.
Not necessarily a knock on the course, but once you unlock the puzzle box of space the course gets way easier.
Sven
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Sven,
I understand your point, but the variety of the holes and the use of the different landforms (plus the visual trickery) is what makes BT so compelling. And even if a good player finds the fat part off the tee, they still need accuracy and distance control for the approach.
Regarding BD, I appreciated it more on our second visit, but there are a few weaker holes and the sum is not greater than the parts. Perhaps my biggest hang up is that the ocean is used more visually than strategically; hence, my comment regarding given the site.
You know the courses far better than I, but this thread has made me think about the question quite a bit.
The resort clearly is unmatched for the quality of the golf. However, that fact does not lead to the conclusion that all of the courses do not warrant some careful analysis about their relative quality. For example, we played Yale a month before our trip to Bandon. It is clearly better than BD, OM, and SR by a fair measure.
Ira
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Wait so its not obviously implicit that a 10 is ranked higher than a 7? I mean the descriptions pretty well do that
7 - An excellent course if within 100 miles, but not necessarily anything unique.
vs
10 - Nearly perfect, you would miss something if you missed just one hole.
That's why I've always really liked it as a hybrid rating system because its a good way to apply a relative rating, without needing to split hairs why a DS 10 like Pine valley is better than CPC, or to limit oneself to top 50, 100, or whatever.
Kalen-My point was that that is nothing to differentiate all the 7’s as an example. Like Sean I’m good with that.
Yes, I can certainly agree on that point, I'd think its better to just list them
If GD or Golf Magazine or Golf Week wanted to avoid controversy and provide a more honest assessment of courses they would not try differentiate two courses with same DS rating. I don't know how well received Michelin is, but getting a 1, 2, or 3 star rating seems to work well enough.
I quite agree with you, and have full confidence you understand that "controversy" is part of the point for these publications. The diehards, like GCA folks, will want something more along the lines of the lists you suggest. Nevertheless I'll confess to looking up some of the ratings before visiting new territory, as it's a reasonable starting point.
In my lone trip to Bandon I would put PD at the top overall. Kidd certainly seemed to learn from his work (errors) at BD, as I truly enjoyed what he accomplished at Mammoth Dunes.
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Regarding BD, I appreciated it more on our second visit, but there are a few weaker holes and the sum is not greater than the parts.
If we're going to apply this kind of reasoning, let's at least be consistent and note that you could say the same thing about Trails.
Like PD, BD has a number of crescendos throughout the round. Not sure if you can say the same about Trails. There is no "16th Hole" moment at Trails, which might be the defining memory for most guests.
We're splitting hairs here, especially if we're going to be trying to compare five links courses to a parkland course in Connecticut (your opinion of it being clearly better than 3 of the resort courses by a fair measure seems a bit hyperbolic).
Sven
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Since when are we not supposed to compare courses built on different terrains? My statement about Yale is my well considered opinion (which is all it can be). We played it in close proximity to Bandon, and the more I reflect upon it, the more I appreciate it. In fact, it not being on the ocean probably would unfairly prejudice some people against it. And we played Yale the day after we played Sleepy Hollow which is no slouch in terms of architecture or views.
The great thing about subjective analysis is that we can agree to disagree.
Ira
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Bandon Dunes is one of the best golf courses in the world. I was lucky enough to go to Bandon two years ago for the first time with a group of 16 guys and we played 261 holes of golf over a 7 day period.
We did a silent vote and our group ranked the courses as follows:
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Bandon Dunes (lost by 1 vote)
3. Bandon Trails
4. Sheep Ranch
5. Old Mac
The funny thing is we had guys that have played courses like Sand Valley, Whistling Straits, Streamsong, Kingsley, Dunes Club and the list goes on an on and we all agreed that the resort has the 5 best courses that everyone has ever played.
Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal. I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.
I have honestly been thinking long and hard about retiring in the next few years early and moving to Bandon and work there (as long as I can get a free round of golf every now and then :) I dont care if I have to water the plants, clean bathrooms, or take out the trash....I just want to play world class golf as much as possible and Bandon Dunes is at the top of my personal list
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Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal. I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.
Okay, just to be Devil's Advocate, I"ll be that guy.
Here's the argument: this thread is now 4 1/2 pages long and there are only two or three holes that anyone has singled out as being great holes. And even on those two, just above, you only mentioned the visuals of them, instead of whether they were really great holes to play.
I don't have any question that lots of people love the course . . . it is a great setting for golf, and all of the courses at Bandon get a lot of extra points for that. But if great courses are full of great holes, and everybody keeps coming back to the same two or three holes, is it really that great?
And if fans of the course now fall back and tell us what a great hole the 5th is or the 11th or whatever, at least then we could talk about whether it's a great course instead of the popularity contest.
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Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal. I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.
Okay, just to be Devil's Advocate, I"ll be that guy.
Here's the argument: this thread is now 4 1/2 pages long and there are only two or three holes that anyone has singled out as being great holes. And even on those two, just above, you only mentioned the visuals of them, instead of whether they were really great holes to play.
I don't have any question that lots of people love the course . . . it is a great setting for golf, and all of the courses at Bandon get a lot of extra points for that. But if great courses are full of great holes, and everybody keeps coming back to the same two or three holes, is it really that great?
And if fans of the course now fall back and tell us what a great hole the 5th is or the 11th or whatever, at least then we could talk about whether it's a great course instead of the popularity contest.
Fully recognizing the "devil's advocate" ;) ... it's the same question (for some) that's been repeated thousands of times regarding Pebble.
I have no idea how someone would not consider Bandon great. They're ALL great .. and that may actually be why these things are dissected so much. All the courses are SO good in one spot, it's simply hard to believe.
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Fully recognizing the "devil's advocate" ;) ... it's the same question (for some) that's been repeated thousands of times regarding Pebble.
Not really. Pebble Beach has six holes that are always in the discussion of the best holes on the planet. That’s what keeps its ranking so high, even if some of the inland holes are not special. The argument there is whether Pebble is a 10 or a 9.
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I have been in the BD the course is overrated camp from the beginning of the thread, but because my wife is putting “Often Wrong, Never in Doubt” on my tombstone, I did another check in response to Doak’s question about great holes. Conclusion: 5 is a great hole, and I could put 14 in the same category. 7 is borderline great. I am a fan of 10, but that would not be a consensus pick for great. 4 and 12 are gorgeous but I found them to be more on the eye candy side. I am not a long hitter, but could see someone who is considering 16 to be great.
So after reflection, I remain not in doubt of my position on BD the course being overrated, which is a relative term (I listed above several courses that I think are better). Btw, I know it is a bit blasphemous, but I think all of the courses except for BT are ranked too high to one degree or another (as noted in my exchange with Sven). It is the best collection of courses in the US and maybe the world, but that does not mean everyone of them deserves the ranking they traditionally receive.
Ira
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This is a really interesting thread to read as someone who personally ranks Bandon Dunes as the top course at the resort. I'd always known and appreciated that opinions were varied, as all the courses are excellent, so I'm a bit surprised to see a decent consensus of like minded (and respected) people come to a pretty different conclusion than me.
On deeper reflection, I can be persuaded that Pacific has better holes and there may not be enough "great" holes on Bandon to justify a 1st place ranking at the resort. All that being said, Bandon Dunes is still my favorite course to play of the 4 (having not seen the new Sheep Ranch). And I'm not 100% sure why that is? The setting and views at Pacific are equal, but there is something about Bandon that I like more. I think it might be that it is easier and wider when conditions are tough. Pacific is fantastic, but I think it's a hard course.
Bandon Dunes is greater than its individual features and draws out the fun of the game for me. As someone who spends their working life in data, I can see how it would be frustrating to rate a course 1st and not be able to justify it with concrete reasons. But golf courses are half art and I like the art Kidd made more than the others.
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While I don’t have the same amount of energy in the ground as Tom Doak at Bandon Resort, I have spent quite a bit of time working on the bunkers at Bandon Dunes a few years ago, so I have some bias.
Here’s a couple of my observations about Bandon Dunes, the course; It is a better golf course than the shaping belies. And I think that is one of the big factors that masks its presence as a course. There’s a lot of tees, specifically, that look bad in the landscape. And, there are some mounds that have a certain regular, negative look. But, the course is very fun to play, having plenty of challenge, variety in scenery and fun, interesting choices to be made.
For the record, my favorite course at the resort is Old Mac, and also for the record, 7 on Old Mac is one of my least favorite holes at the resort.
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There’s a lot of tees, specifically, that look bad in the landscape. And, there are some mounds that have a certain regular, negative look. But, the course is very fun to play, having plenty of challenge, variety in scenery and fun, interesting choices to be made.
I fully agree with these observations. The mounding did feel contrived in places. While it is a very fair course, a touch more randomness could do the trick. I personally think Kidd found that right mix at Mammoth Dunes.
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this is the dumbest discussion I've read on this site ::) ::) ::)
for Ira to bring up Yale is just ridiculous, and I love Yale, not an apples to apples gig, more like Syrah to Chardonnay, jeez
Bandon Dunes is not overrated
??? ??? ??? ???
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this is the dumbest discussion I've read on this site ::) ::) ::)
for Ira to bring up Yale is just ridiculous, and I love Yale, not an apples to apples gig, more like Syrah to Chardonnay, jeez
Bandon Dunes is not overrated
??? ??? ??? ???
William,
That's funny you mention wine, as I recently re-watched one of my favorite movies Sideways. It reminded me of this convo, where you have hardcore aficionados who like to haggle and re-hash every last detail and have strong and specific preferences, vs most people who just go to the store and grab a bottle off the shelf and think "this will do"
Got me wondering if Bandon Dunes is the Frass Canyon of the resort? Aka wine for the masses. ;D
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William,
That's funny you mention wine, as I recently re-watched one of my favorite movies Sideways. It reminded me of this convo, where you have hardcore aficionados who like to haggle and re-hash every last detail and have strong and specific preferences, vs most people who just go to the store and grab a bottle off the shelf and think "this will do"
Got me wondering if Bandon Dunes is the Frass Canyon of the resort? Aka wine for the masses. ;D
Funny you just mentioned Sideways, which is a hilarious movie in which there is something unethical happening in every scene. We start out with Paul Giamatti's character completing a crossword puzzle while driving I-5 from San Diego to Los Angeles, and it gets worse from there.
But anyway, I sent a message to a GCAer who posted on this thread in support of Bandon Dunes, and told him that I agree but it seems that anyone who loves Bandon Dunes has been deemed a Merlot drinker. I hope he gets the reference. PS I buy wine based on the picture on the label, and when $200 wine tastes 10 times better than a $20 bottle I will gladly splurge.
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All this Bandon talk got me thinking.....I should prob book my 2nd trip and decided to go over Thanksgiving.
Day 1 - Pac Dunes and Bandon Trails
Day 2 Bandon Dunes and Pac Dunes
Day 3 Sheep Ranch and Pac Dunes
I will report back on my findings :)
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Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal. I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.
Okay, just to be Devil's Advocate, I"ll be that guy.
Here's the argument: this thread is now 4 1/2 pages long and there are only two or three holes that anyone has singled out as being great holes. And even on those two, just above, you only mentioned the visuals of them, instead of whether they were really great holes to play.
I don't have any question that lots of people love the course . . . it is a great setting for golf, and all of the courses at Bandon get a lot of extra points for that. But if great courses are full of great holes, and everybody keeps coming back to the same two or three holes, is it really that great?
And if fans of the course now fall back and tell us what a great hole the 5th is or the 11th or whatever, at least then we could talk about whether it's a great course instead of the popularity contest.
Tom,
I agree with you that this thread has been pretty thin on discussion of what's so great about the individual holes on Bandon Dunes...so let me try to fill that in.
I gave my take on why I thought Bandon Dunes wasn't overrated at the top of page 2. Here's that speech:
I would say that it's not overrated being in the top 50 in the US, even though I don't think it's one of the top two courses at the resort. And that's because while I think it has a few more negatives than either Pacific Dunes or Bandon Trails, its positives are about as strong as theirs.
Let's start with the weaknesses: the routing and some of the holes on the front nine. The walks from 1-2 (left tee), 3-4, and 6-7 are all longer than you'd want. The 6-7 walk is especially irritating because the 7th tee is next to the 5th green. And I wasn't a big fan of 2 (from the left tee; I might like it more from the right), 7, or especially 9. Except for a few bunkers in the middle of the fairway, 9, with its mounds up both sides and flattish fairway, reminded me of something from a high-end public course in metro Detroit.
But these walks are at most 150 yards and none of those is a bad hole. And the strengths are so strong. The back nine is as good as any on the property. There are a bunch of very good to great holes including 4-6, 10, 12, 14-17. And I thought that there was a lot of variety in the green complexes. Some were narrower, some were broader. Some had heavy interior contour, others not so much. And I really liked the surroundings of the greens. There's a lot of severity around these greens but unlike some new courses, there's always a good place to miss. The 15th hole--which they made a mess of in the US Amateur--is a good example of this. Yes long left and right are dead, but there's plenty of room short and left. You just have to realize it and use it.
So while Bandon Dunes might have the most weaknesses of the top 3 or 4 courses at Bandon (not counting Sheep Ranch, which I think is clearly inferior to the others), it has many strengths and the strengths are as strong as the other courses. All of that adds up to it probably being rated about right.[/size][/font]
Leave aside the stuff about the shaping, I noted 4-6, 10, 12, 14-17 as very good to great holes. One thing that many of these holes have in common is that you court a lot of danger with an aggressive shot. But they leave you plenty of room if you hedge to the safe side or figure out the right, conservative line.
Everyone points to 4-6 as a great stretch. For me, 5 is clearly the best hole of this bunch because you want to be in the center of the fairway to have a good look at the narrow green. But to get there, you have to flirt with/carry the mounds in the middle of the fairway. Carrying them shouldn't be too difficult if it's downwind, but then you have to be accurate or your can run through the fairway into the junk on the left or right. I'd seen people question this drive before and the pictures of the hole made it look a bit too challenging, but in person, I thought it worked perfectly and I think that this is among the top handful of holes on the whole property.
4 is maybe not as interesting off the tee, but there's still something to do: it's easier to approach the green from the right than the left half of the fairway. That means that you have to flirt with the junk down the right. I also found the drive interestingly awkward because the junk on the right cuts subtly into the fairway the further you go. I actually found this drive to be quite tough. Obviously the big reveal when you get around the corner helps the hole too.
The sixth is excellent because the deeper you try to hit it into the green, the less room you have at the sides to miss. A lot of holes share this principle (Coore/Crenshaw courses seem to have a lot of them) but it's a good one and like many of the best of these holes, the safe play (here to the front of the green) gives a lot of safety. Sometimes on these holes the safe play doesn't leave enough room, but I didn't think that was the case here.
On the rest of the front nine, I also like the 8th hole. But I think that the next excellent hole is the 10th. To me, this is definitely a great hole. You can drive it pretty much anywhere you like. But the approach from the right side of the fairway is so awkward that it's really not advisable, unless perhaps you can get it really close to the green. The best line into the green is from pretty far out to the left and you really have to have some self-control to drive it in a place that looks so far off line. But the green is so skinny and so well-protected by the hill on the right that the angle is very important.
Next, the 12th. Generally, I think that the par 3s, except the 2nd from the west tee, are excellent. This is certainly one of the two toughest (along with 15). Again, like the 6th, you take on a lot of risk in trying to be aggressive to back pins here. One, you can easily go over the green into the junk. Two, you can easily be caught by the pot bunker at the corner of the green. So you hedge short. But unlike six, this part of the green is narrower so you need to be precise. The really safe play, which is very easy, is to hedge just short of the green. If the pin is back-left, you'll have to be on the right to avoid pitching over the pot bunker. You still need to be fairly accurate with the safe play because a miss left is always bad. So there are layers of safe plays here and if you pick the safest, placement becomes important.
I like the 13th hole a lot because it has some of the best fairway contour on the whole property. But the next great hole is 14. Like 10, this a great sucker hole. You know the green is on the right and that it's a short par 4, so you're tempted to go for it. But there are so many bunkers over there. And the approach is so easy if you just play well out to the left, over the first bunker in the center of the fairway. It may not be the most exciting hole once you figure out and commit to this play but given the vanity of most golfers, it works very well.
It seems like there might be some playability issues with the 15th in the summer when the ground is firm. But in the fall, it was perfect. Again, getting aggressive here courts all kinds of trouble because long-left and right are some of the worst misses on the course. But there's plenty of room to hedge short and left and to run one onto the green here. Also, my understanding is that this hole plays more into the wind in the summer. So while the firmness of the ground might create problems for a shot played to the front-left, the wind should hold a careful shot played here.
Sixteen is obviously a stunning hole and gets points for that. But there are plenty of holes in the world that look good but play terribly. I don't think that this is one of them, subject again to the caveat that I haven't played it in the summer. In the fall, when it was a bit into the wind, it was tough just to carry the cross bunkers, even playing somewhat out to the left. I could have played more out to the left, so even though I was pissed off when I found my ball in the bunker, I thought the drive worked great.
This is another sucker drive because there really isn't a lot of room online with the green. You get a lot of "hey, I'm on a dream trip, I'm not laying up" at Bandon Dunes and this hole exploits that fully. If you could squeeze your drive between the bunkers in front of the green, you'd have a much easier approach. It's a tough angle from out to the left. But you should only have ~100 yards and the green isn't that narrow. So I feel like the difficulty is reasonable. It just seems that the discipline to play it over here is often lacking. To me, that counts in the hole's favor.
Finally 17. This is one hole that I think is made by its green, which is probably the course's best. There's certainly something to do on the drive though, namely get it as close to the valley as you can. Because you don't want a long shot in. I think that the green is probably the course's largest and has the most interior contour. It's a nice change of pace for a course that for the most part isn't made by its green contours, but by the strategy-generating placement of hazards and angling of greens. There's plenty of room to miss here, but you'd better be able to putt.
That to me is a lot of very good to great holes and is certainly enough to consider Bandon Dunes a great course, despite a few weaknesses. Still, I'd probably have it behind Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails, which have most of its strengths (plus a few more) and few of its weaknesses.
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It's perennially rated in the Top100 courses in the World.
Both Golf Digest / Golf Magazine have it in their Top50 courses in the USA. It always seems to be rated ahead of the Streamsong and Sand Valley group of courses.
Is the original course at Bandon overrated? Why? Why not? What's so good / not so good about it?
Not even a tiny bit. It's an absolutely fantastic golf course. Love every minute of both playing and walking it.
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Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal. I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.
Brett
Thanks for your detailed notes - I've been travelling and haven't had a a chance to respond as yet.