Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jake McCarty on October 31, 2022, 04:32:13 PM

Title: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Jake McCarty on October 31, 2022, 04:32:13 PM
Just curious which courses have Zoysia grass, as I just love playing off it. I wonder why more courses don't use it, but if I had to guess, it's significantly more expensive/newer.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on October 31, 2022, 04:36:34 PM
It usually grows slowly, so it is often sodded, resulting in over a Million Dollars in extra cost.  All that sod does make for a nice grow in insurance policy, however.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Buck Wolter on October 31, 2022, 04:42:11 PM
Move to St Louis -- almost everything there is. Great in the summer, waterlogged when it goes dormant. Never have to take a divot -- like playing on a tee everywhere.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Jake McCarty on October 31, 2022, 04:45:44 PM
I know Bluejack has Zoysia and Red Feather will have Zoysia, and I can tell you the drainage system at Red Feather might be one of the most interesting in golf, if people are into that level of detail!
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 31, 2022, 05:29:14 PM
Off the top of my head, The Farm in Dalton, GA, the Greensboro CC Farm course, and now Old Chatham, which just reopened after responding their fairways with zoysia.


I think the common element among zoysia courses is not having excessive play.  Nothing grows at the rate of hybrid Bermudas, so those grasses fare better on busy courses.


But as a playing surface, zoysia is probably as good as it gets.  In fact, there is some “conventional wisdom” that handicaps from zoysia courses don’t always travel well because players only hit off perfect lies.  I don’t know if that’s true or not; could be envy?
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: jeffwarne on October 31, 2022, 06:39:38 PM
Wow.
I've only played off it in winter, and it's deplorable IMHO-at least around the greens.
Far less chance to bump and run a ball compared to dormant bermuda.
It can be quite fast(once rolling) when dormant, but rarely firm or bouncy.
Have never played off it in summer, and for the life of me have a hard time seeing why any club in a warm weather bermuda climate(deep south) would use it when a lot of golf is played when it's dormant.
Perhaps there's a way to make it less thatchy/grainy before it goes dormant, but my experience with has been poor.


Sure the ball sits up in summer, but what grass isn't good to play off in summer...


A very good playing club pro who plays and teaches on it regularly says he's never seen so many chips and pitches travel one foot(as in from address-as in chunk city) in late winter.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Matt_Cohn on October 31, 2022, 07:35:17 PM
Trinity Forest does (https://clubandresortbusiness.com/transformative-turf-at-trinity-forest-golf-club/) and it's pretty great.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: John Emerson on October 31, 2022, 09:32:41 PM
Valhalla just installed zoysia fwys. In the Midwest zoysia is everywhere. From my experience, zoysia is often not managed properly. Over fertilized and/or under cultivated.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Jim_Coleman on October 31, 2022, 09:35:39 PM
    Philly Cricket regrassed it’s mini course in Chestnut Hill with zoysia.  The ‘07 and ‘10 US Opens were held at that site.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: PCCraig on October 31, 2022, 10:09:48 PM
Bellerive! As a guy with a shallow swing I love Zoysia!
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: archie_struthers on October 31, 2022, 10:42:16 PM
 8)


Eb Steiniger was the long time super at Pine Valley ....and a living legend when I arrived there in 1976  He was intrigued with the possibilities of zoysia and experimented with it extensively. It didn't really make the grade and eventually was removed. Pernicious it was and tough to remove.


I think the GOAT of all superintendents to me , Dick Bator eventually scared it all to death in the early 80's
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Michael Wolf on November 01, 2022, 12:51:01 AM
Isn't the most notable zoysia course Peachtree?


Also The Ledges in Huntsville. I believe they had trouble with an early strain of fairway zoysia that was invading the fronts of some of  their greens.


Michael
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Anthony_Nysse on November 01, 2022, 06:42:23 AM
Atlanta Athletic Club, The Honors Course, Peachtree, East Lake, Dallas National, Briggs Ranch, Cordilla Ranch, Alotian, Olde Stone, Carmel CC, Bluejack, Trinity Forrest, Escondito, Preston Trail, [/size]The Troubadour, Biltmore Forest, CC of NC, Payne's Valley, Bellerive, Reynold's Plantation, The Grove 23, Timaquana, TPC Sugarloaf, Rio Olympic Course, Hyde Park, St. Martin's Course @ Philly Cricket, Valhalla, Vaquero, Whispering Pines, Mission Hills, Hurstborne, Flint Hills National to name a few....[/color]
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Dave Doxey on November 01, 2022, 08:55:15 AM
Bristow Manor in northern Virginia is a nice public with zoysia.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Tim Gavrich on November 01, 2022, 09:10:25 AM
Zoysia has a distinct and (to my nose, anyway) pleasant aroma, I've noticed.


Played the (George) Fazio Course at Palmetto Dunes on Hilton Head Island Saturday morning and their Diamond Zoysia greens were shockingly good. Not crazy-fast but good-enough speed and perfect roll.


Most places I've seen it in fairways, the physical structure of the grass does seem to prevent ground-game shots around greens.


I like it on par-3 tee boxes.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Richard Hetzel on November 01, 2022, 10:28:50 AM
Just played Old Toccoa Farm GC in Northern Georgia this past weekend, it has Zoysia fairways. In the summer when the grass is not dormant it provides an awesome lie.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Will Spivey on November 01, 2022, 12:40:32 PM
Atlanta Athletic Club, The Honors Course, Peachtree, East Lake, Dallas National, Briggs Ranch, Cordilla Ranch, Alotian, Olde Stone, Carmel CC, Bluejack, Trinity Forrest, Escondito, Preston Trail, The Troubadour, Biltmore Forest, CC of NC, Payne's Valley, Bellerive, Reynold's Plantation, The Grove 23, Timaquana, TPC Sugarloaf, Rio Olympic Course, Hyde Park, St. Martin's Course @ Philly Cricket, Valhalla, Vaquero, Whispering Pines, Mission Hills, Hurstborne, Flint Hills National to name a few....


You can add the Farm Course (Donald Steel) at Greensboro (NC) CC to that list.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 01, 2022, 12:55:42 PM
8)


Eb Steiniger was the long time super at Pine Valley ....and a living legend when I arrived there in 1976  He was intrigued with the possibilities of zoysia and experimented with it extensively. It didn't really make the grade and eventually was removed. Pernicious it was and tough to remove.


I think the GOAT of all superintendents to me , Dick Bator eventually scared it all to death in the early 80's


Dick is a Rochester guy. Helped to build Blue Heron. Never met him but his legend is huge.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Jason Hines on November 01, 2022, 01:41:20 PM
Most of the courses here in Kansas City use zoysia - some of the newer courses have used bent as zoysia is very top dollar.  My understanding and others can correct:


We are too far north to seed it and have to sod.  Sanding divots does work -
We do get very hot, humid summers but we can also get 20-30 inches of snow and it can take winter better than the southern grasses.


Playing conditions:


Our northern grass rough thrives in the spring and fall while the zoysia goes dormant.  In the middle of summer the zoysia is at its peak while the northern grasses are gasping for breath.  Right now with lack of rain, it is a blast to play on but can get waterlogged after a rain when it is dormant.  In the dead of summer it is like velcro.


When I moved here 15 years ago from Omaha which mainly had bent grass fairways, it took awhile to not hit so steep on the ball.  Also as mentioned above, bump and run shots to the greens really don't exist.  My course was built in '89 and we are considering adding 15 yards of bent to each approach to give some playability around the greens - 9 months out of the year.


My club from 2 weeks ago:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ug106R5nLlZyyfPclok-GC7DXtSB1sE2R3aT5jTjA6Ga4KnrJ0OawAI6mJ-KTCeLyG_mdAmAYpThOtMo-ZT4Cki9qqCoHP1LgYTjgpRVL2-TPzr_mh5zNz8DeVQBQFIu2PkGQGq55PQfW2B6dgftaWNwKtFu5dTl8y6xaY3angaaeUbFQfHKz4nk0P03FumguAZakDOkpK2cMf4o1HRSjO67EKrASof7qJia26Lks-QSP1ahxIsTdCGu7lVfBU8YLzsF93g9Wlf_zseufTfhdX0Q8QkzYnD8_F7SpZ60oWxcGkGqcynWfSBDz8uNXX3OUmm9pfortKJiyzKJCGx9z9eiyWULedvMpVYsSvll11cgIbh7VbErtM8rpO1OGsgSeTg5xJO_uvOnAKix6NfsPT2Ps8tB1Sj5MRVe1gqQvc00P6cvNK86hEYUF8JhVq7HezNJw6Qgcfigro6j9k8JdKGqXkLPNXTs6o7qzTuJ39pV_VON5Py_vzxLR-cYRh7m3KxQ75u4Njq3bI0IKgDLn-6wAjhr9NKLdy5cfLhGvEIV_pj_F9Ur_lmBknI274NYDQRhOBRMqu84wpf1wI4-_DCcdIznnYCmvN6WCqwtAhBnQjbSGcSCQE_uETNVNavRnWtXp3uCrF0_pccyR5ROoSOW206lFYwRfIvMOxSVHiszbyGRR-6XjsLMtOa_fH-hX0rI8jqjkABy9bpeByJ9bs8KVmHUXvuUXU6_QIWp2lk_VmXgOtU_0YM5B6jS6ApYODDbpL5zOMSP3gJ0vyT4sHUrJkaBdXiSvzjzAgrohBIaOPNVkjtvneXUMLc9xBO-gYuIv93Nen59ktovKxxzkurtmyhn8G9DcoC6rBZKE0ETeAh1egpz1br8Ve6QfrpQUARgf7WmtTjGSl6oW2SKpI9f3G6mJ9EMyuk9SkGiqRf2a7ox=w703-h937-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Max Prokopy on November 01, 2022, 02:39:52 PM
It's fairly popular in the Va/NC areas.  I like playing off of it but have not ever seen it in combination with really firm conditions.  Perhaps something to do with the thatch?  I don't know, just an observation that the zoysia courses I know don't get firm. 
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: A.G._Crockett on November 01, 2022, 05:36:20 PM
Atlanta Athletic Club, The Honors Course, Peachtree, East Lake, Dallas National, Briggs Ranch, Cordilla Ranch, Alotian, Olde Stone, Carmel CC, Bluejack, Trinity Forrest, Escondito, Preston Trail, The Troubadour, Biltmore Forest, CC of NC, Payne's Valley, Bellerive, Reynold's Plantation, The Grove 23, Timaquana, TPC Sugarloaf, Rio Olympic Course, Hyde Park, St. Martin's Course @ Philly Cricket, Valhalla, Vaquero, Whispering Pines, Mission Hills, Hurstborne, Flint Hills National to name a few....


You can add the Farm Course (Donald Steel) at Greensboro (NC) CC to that list.


I mentioned Greensboro CC Farm, and I think Steel renovated and regrassed an Ellis Maples original design. 
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Tim Martin on November 01, 2022, 08:15:26 PM
    Philly Cricket regrassed it’s mini course in Chestnut Hill with zoysia.  The ‘07 and ‘10 US Opens were held at that site.


Jim-Do you know why Philly Cricket St. Martin’s chose zoysia?
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG on November 02, 2022, 12:17:17 PM



Eb Steiniger was the long time super at Pine Valley ....and a living legend when I arrived there in 1976  He was intrigued with the possibilities of zoysia and experimented with it extensively. It didn't really make the grade and eventually was removed. Pernicious it was and tough to remove.


I think the GOAT of all superintendents to me , Dick Bator eventually scared it all to death in the early 80's

Archie, There was some that survived. We removed it from the old range when they built the new one and used it on the Short Course banks and it performed well out there as it needed less work to keep alive.

    Philly Cricket regrassed it’s mini course in Chestnut Hill with zoysia.  The ‘07 and ‘10 US Opens were held at that site.


Jim-Do you know why Philly Cricket St. Martin’s chose zoysia?



I believe it was to help keep the maintenance costs lower as it needs less water, fert, chemicals in the summer. It was a great idea as with the type of play they get there, it didn't need to be as tight as the main courses.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Bob Montle on November 02, 2022, 02:14:19 PM
My local public course (NC) has four greens which are sodded Zoysia.
These four are the slowest greens on the course and are very grainy.
Most of us hate them despite their being very smooth.




Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Terry Lavin on November 02, 2022, 03:32:12 PM

Stumbled onto this article that might be of some interest:



https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/holen/article/2000may5.pdf (https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/holen/article/2000may5.pdf)
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: A.G._Crockett on November 02, 2022, 07:58:49 PM
My local public course (NC) has four greens which are sodded Zoysia.
These four are the slowest greens on the course and are very grainy.
Most of us hate them despite their being very smooth.


When courses put zoysia in for greens, I think it’s usually because the green gets too much shade for Bermuda, and the trees that are shading aren’t on golf course property, or can’t be cut because of local ordinances.  In my limited experience, slow and grainy are the two common reactions.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Ryan Hillenbrand on November 03, 2022, 10:20:45 AM
Move to St Louis -- almost everything there is. Great in the summer, waterlogged when it goes dormant. Never have to take a divot -- like playing on a tee everywhere.


Buck is corrrect. Odd to find a course that isn't Zoysia (St. Louis CC is bent). I believe Roger Null is credited for bringing it to town when they installed it at Old Warson, Plays great in a dry fall like we're having now.


I think the best use of it is on display at Ozarks National in Branson. Its zoysia throughout with no rough. Goes right from fairway to native
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Matthew Galloway on November 03, 2022, 10:46:19 AM
Lot of clubs in NW Arkansas have moved to Zoysia (Blessings, Pinnacle). Great playing surface, Zoysia flyers are a real thing.


There seems to be a transition of grass surfaces in the south-east away from bent grass to alternative solutions to provide stable turf year round and especially as the summers get warmer.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Jim Hoak on November 04, 2022, 12:50:35 AM
I am not a fan—mainly for the reasons mentioned in Post #5 by Jeff Warne.  It is sticky around greens and kills the bump and run game. Also it is tough on your hands when you play from it—and your club does not easily go through it.  I’ve heard of several Zoysia courses regrassing all their approaches.  It’s a Velcro grass.
There are better grasses for most courses.
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: hhuffines on January 14, 2023, 05:31:30 PM
Just spent a frustrating afternoon in our 19th hole trying to understand why an agronomist would recommend a zoysia grass for a hilly, clay based, rock infested, crappy course.  Price tag I’m hearing is $6mil plus including irrigation. 


Our Board and greens staff treat our course like a damn laboratory.  Zoysia collars around super quick bermuda  greens. Patches of different zoysias and bermuda grasses in different fairways for observation.


I read where Hasentree CC has struggled and I hear from my member friends that the Dogwood at CCNC project may not be as pleasing as hoped after some time.


Why would anyone try to remove 100 acres of really good common bermuda and replace with zoysia in central NC?  We have a ton of play as well.


Thanks for any thoughts or experience!


Hart
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: John Emerson on January 14, 2023, 10:27:46 PM
Just spent a frustrating afternoon in our 19th hole trying to understand why an agronomist would recommend a zoysia grass for a hilly, clay based, rock infested, crappy course.  Price tag I’m hearing is $6mil plus including irrigation. 


Our Board and greens staff treat our course like a damn laboratory.  Zoysia collars around super quick bermuda  greens. Patches of different zoysias and bermuda grasses in different fairways for observation.


I read where Hasentree CC has struggled and I hear from my member friends that the Dogwood at CCNC project may not be as pleasing as hoped after some time.


Why would anyone try to remove 100 acres of really good common bermuda and replace with zoysia in central NC?  We have a ton of play as well.

[size=78%]There is no such things as “good” common bermudagrass. I think maybe you may have the common name nomenclature confused. [/size]


Hart
Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: hhuffines on January 14, 2023, 10:42:16 PM
Thanks for that John.  I know this, our bermuda, whatever it’s called, provides a superior playing surface and fully covers a uniquely poor location for a golf course.  It’s also there now and won’t cost big money to replace.


Any helpful follow ups appreciated - this is a significant issue for our club.


Thanks!

Title: Re: Which courses have Zoysia grass
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 15, 2023, 09:28:58 AM

There is no such things as “good” common bermudagrass. I think maybe you may have the common name nomenclature confused.





Dornick Hills, where we worked a couple of years ago, has common Bermuda fairways.  For a club that can't afford to spend a lot of money on maintenance, it seemed like a pretty good choice.  Maybe the lies aren't as perfect as the latest new grass and triple the maintenance budget, but you can definitely play golf on it.