Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: cary lichtenstein on October 31, 2022, 01:39:55 PM
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I would have liked to see the LIV televised to see the finals play out. Dustin Johnson for 5 months work made $35m+his $125 signing bonus. I bet some of the other top 20 players that did not sign on, are pretty envious today although they would never admit it to the press for publication. He made roughly $75m on the PGA tour and has now doubled that.
Regardless of whatever you think about LIV, Saudi Arabia, that's a lot of doe ray me.
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I would have liked to see the LIV televised to see the finals play out. Dustin Johnson for 5 months work made $35m+his $125 signing bonus. I bet some of the other top 20 players that did not sign on, are pretty envious today although they would never admit it to the press for publication. He made roughly $75m on the PGA tour and has now doubled that.
Regardless of whatever you think about LIV, Saudi Arabia, that's a lot of doe ray me.
For some players it’s not about the money or at least not all about the money.
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The $ does nothing for me excitement-wise. I don't see myself caring about LIV until they are the dominant golf entity or gain some historical relevance, which seems years away, and/or impossible.
These days I have a tough time sitting down for any period of time and watching golf, or most other sports. Hockey seems to be the only sport that is watchable in the regular season for me.
I do follow sports closely online...but there are just too many other things to do than watching TV when it's nice out.
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I'm not sure that's accurate -- I know there were rumblings that for at least some players, all winnings were offset against their original guarantee.
If that's the case for Dustin Johnson, none of the $35m is additional money he actually won; it just comes out of the $125m he was paid to sign up.
Not that $125m isn't plenty of cash on its own.
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The PGA Tour is playing hardball with Dechambeau and Watson over PIP payments that were due from 2021. Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts? I don’t see how they could claw back the self funded portions.
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DJ has been nice to my twelve year old son on several occasions and he spent some time chatting with him during the tournament (we just had grounds tickets, too). It was his favorite tournament this past year and we were fortunate to have gone to the masters, Ryder, the British open and the players all in the last 12 months.
Just figured I'd share the opinion of my son.
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I'm not sure that's accurate -- I know there were rumblings that for at least some players, all winnings were offset against their original guarantee.
If that's the case for Dustin Johnson, none of the $35m is additional money he actually won; it just comes out of the $125m he was paid to sign up.
Not that $125m isn't plenty of cash on its own.
But you don't know?
Ciao
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I would have liked to see the LIV televised to see the finals play out. Dustin Johnson for 5 months work made $35m+his $125 signing bonus. I bet some of the other top 20 players that did not sign on, are pretty envious today although they would never admit it to the press for publication. He made roughly $75m on the PGA tour and has now doubled that.
Regardless of whatever you think about LIV, Saudi Arabia, that's a lot of doe ray me.
For some players it’s not about the money or at least not all about the money.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
Ciao
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Big difference between playing for and earning millions of dollars versus “guaranteed” millions of dollars for showing up.
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Big difference between playing for and earning millions of dollars versus “guaranteed” millions of dollars for showing up.
I didn't say otherwise.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
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Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Again, I didn't say they did.
Keep attacking those straw men, man.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
Players on the pga tour have guaranteed money thru endorsements. Makes no difference how they play. Same as LIV.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
Players on the pga tour have guaranteed money thru endorsements. Makes no difference how they play. Same as LIV.
I think you know exactly the difference.
Ciao
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
Players on the pga tour have guaranteed money thru endorsements. Makes no difference how they play. Same as LIV.
I think you know exactly the difference.
Ciao
You said players on the pga tour don’t have guaranteed money. They do. Pretty simple. If you said the PGA tour didn’t pay them guaranteed money in the past I would agree. They now get $500k to start the year from the tour. Not LIV money but something.
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It is a drop in the bucket to the trillions of dollars the Saudi's have sucked out yours and mine pockets. And for that we let them sportwash their blood money. Two weeks ago they arrested an American when he stepped off a plane in Dubai.....and hustled him off to prison for 20 years because they didn't like his anti Saudi Tweets....
If Dustin likes doing business with these thugs good for him, but he has lowered himself to the level of snake poop.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
Players on the pga tour have guaranteed money thru endorsements. Makes no difference how they play. Same as LIV.
They have endorsement money until they stop playing well. When the contract runs it’s course it’s game over in most cases.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
Players on the pga tour have guaranteed money thru endorsements. Makes no difference how they play. Same as LIV.
I think you know exactly the difference.
Ciao
You said players on the pga tour don’t have guaranteed money. They do. Pretty simple. If you said the PGA tour didn’t pay them guaranteed money in the past I would agree. They now get $500k to start the year from the tour. Not LIV money but something.
It's sort of a half guarantee. Only fully exempt players get the $500,000 if they play the minimum number of events. I don't recall the minimum and I don't consider that a guarantee in nearly the same way other sports use the term for contracts.
Ciao
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My understanding is that it’s a non refundable advance against winnings. It’s a way of covering a player’s expenses.
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Golf viewing is important to me. I find LIV events much more enjoyable to watch than PGA events. At least four times the number of golf shots covered. Being able to go back at any time and watch any past LIV round on YouTube is a perk.
The 4 majors, especially the Masters are well done, relative to the standard weekly network coverage, which is unwatchable without a DVR skip function. Streaming broadcasts may well be the future for the younger fans. The Masters streaming option of being able to watch any shot in the tournament is remarkable.
I hope that the LIV coverage is a wake-up call to the PGAT that causes them to rethink their current coverage and improve. They have to do something to stem the dropping viewership as the golf audience audience ages out. All I care about is enjoyable golf watching. I’ll stay out of the PGAT-LIV mud slinging contest.
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I hope that the LIV coverage is a wake-up call to the PGAT that causes them to rethink their current coverage and improve. They have to do something to stem the dropping viewership as the golf audience audience ages out. All I care about is enjoyable golf watching. I’ll stay out of the PGAT-LIV mud slinging contest.
It's not going to. The Tour just negotiated a huge TV deal, so to PAY for that TV deal, networks have to have approximately 57 minutes of advertising per 60 minutes of coverage :P .
It's not up to the PGA Tour at this point, really, unless they want to refund some of the money on their deal, in which case they won't have the money they've promised to players for the Elevated Events and such.
Of course the LIV "broadcasts" are better… they have for all intents here an unlimited amount of money, so they can broadcast things without commercials. For now.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
I don't really get why the OWGR points is even a big issue. Go ahead and give it to them -- they're still going to plummet in the rankings because they won't be able to earn as many points. The LIV events will have to be worth fewer points than PGA events because of the format and the weaker fields.
I imagine certain players will whine if they aren't worth exactly the same as PGA events, but that would make the whole concept of the OWGR pointless.
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Does anyone think they will balk or find a loophole with pension payouts?
No. IANAL, but I think they'd be wary of getting themselves into that type of legal battle.
It's money first and foremost. No money means a different career. Let's be honest.
But the choice isn't "no money" or "LIV money." The choice is millions of dollars versus more millions of dollars, even if you restrict it to just talking about the money and ignore the other "things" that matter.
Nope. A player on the PGA Tour does not have guaranteed money. Isn't this the big reason why people bitch and moan about LIV golfers wanting OWGR points?
Ciao
Ciao
I don't really get why the OWGR points is even a big issue. Go ahead and give it to them -- they're still going to plummet in the rankings because they won't be able to earn as many points. The LIV events will have to be worth fewer points than PGA events because of the format and the weaker fields.
I imagine certain players will whine if they aren't worth exactly the same as PGA events, but that would make the whole concept of the OWGR pointless.
I agree. But who said pro golf was about common sense?
Ciao
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Golf viewing is important to me. I find LIV events much more enjoyable to watch than PGA events. At least four times the number of golf shots covered. Being able to go back at any time and watch any past LIV round on YouTube is a perk.
The 4 majors, especially the Masters are well done, relative to the standard weekly network coverage, which is unwatchable without a DVR skip function. Streaming broadcasts may well be the future for the younger fans. The Masters streaming option of being able to watch any shot in the tournament is remarkable.
I hope that the LIV coverage is a wake-up call to the PGAT that causes them to rethink their current coverage and improve. They have to do something to stem the dropping viewership as the golf audience audience ages out. All I care about is enjoyable golf watching. I’ll stay out of the PGAT-LIV mud slinging contest.
I could not agree more. I love watching LIV, just golf with no commercials and I like to see the different courses they play. After watching LIV, the PGA tour is hard to watch with all the commercials, split screen etc.
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It is a drop in the bucket to the trillions of dollars the Saudi's have sucked out yours and mine pockets. And for that we let them sportwash their blood money. Two weeks ago they arrested an American when he stepped off a plane in Dubai.....and hustled him off to prison for 20 years because they didn't like his anti Saudi Tweets....
If Dustin likes doing business with these thugs good for him, but he has lowered himself to the level of snake poop.
Wonder why they didn’t hustle Phil off for calling them evil mother F’ers?
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;D isn't Dubai in the UAE? Saudi's generally go to Dubai to relax and have some fun... at least the ones I knew from working on some construction projects did... whisked to Saudi Arabia for 20 years?? Was this reported in The Onion?
I'm guessing Dustin's not too worried about his "legacy," he's already on many highlight/lowlight reels and video clips for his two majors and doesn't really need to own the media rights for them as an extra income stream in retirement.
Not sure about Perez, but I read that his overall $18,000,000 signing+ earnings haul this inaugural LIV year is equivalent to 60% of his 25 year pro earnings...
Dustin, is probably looking to keep improving his game and hoping that this LIV/PGAT/DPWT/OWGR respect thing will all get resolved in the next 12 years before he can play on the Champions Tour...
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It is a drop in the bucket to the trillions of dollars the Saudi's have sucked out yours and mine pockets. And for that we let them sportwash their blood money. Two weeks ago they arrested an American when he stepped off a plane in Dubai.....and hustled him off to prison for 20 years because they didn't like his anti Saudi Tweets....
If Dustin likes doing business with these thugs good for him, but he has lowered himself to the level of snake poop.
Wonder why they didn’t hustle Phil off for calling them evil mother F’ers?
I wonder that too. Maybe, just maybe he should watch his back.
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I agree. But who said pro golf was about common sense?
It's not a common sense issue.
The rules - established long before LIV - said that you had to meet certain criteria for a year to be considered. They haven't met them, and it hasn't been a year, so the clock hasn't even started ticking.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/18/saudi-arabia-us-citizen-prison-critical-tweets-regime
I think this speaks to the Saudi's tolerance.
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I agree. But who said pro golf was about common sense?
It's not a common sense issue.
The rules - established long before LIV - said that you had to meet certain criteria for a year to be considered. They haven't met them, and it hasn't been a year, so the clock hasn't even started ticking.
No common sense.. you got that right. Rules? The rules are arbitrary, ever changing and can be further altered and will be altered in the future. The rules are fluid.
A ranking system's only function is to rank golfers. What is the point of excluding golfers? The people operating the system are too bone idle (a charitable interpretation) to develop a new way to rank golfers based on the current landscape of pro golf. If a ranking system cannot or will not include certain players, then it must necessarily be the case that the system doesn't function properly as a World Ranking. World Ranking - X players = Not a World Ranking.
Ciao
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No common sense.
You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. It's not a "common sense" issue. Common sense says "this is the expected outcome." They haven't complied with the requirements, so they haven't been granted OWGR points.
you got that right. Rules? The rules are arbitrary, ever changing and can be further altered and will be altered in the future. The rules are fluid.
Expecting them to be fluid in exactly the way the LIV idiots want them to be is also not "common sense."
A ranking system's only function is to rank golfers.
Not quite, no.
The OWGR Mission says (emphasis mine):
The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide.
What is the point of excluding golfers?
Okay, so Eric Cole, Ben Crane, and two other guys ranked 1235 and 1473 swing by a local country club every Tuesday and play a nine-hole scramble. Should those competitions award OWGR points? After all, they're ranked golfers, right?
In other words, you have to draw the line somewhere, and the OWGR has drawn the line at:
- Meet these requirements.
- Do so for a year.
[size=78%]The people operating the system are too bone idle (a charitable interpretation) to develop a new way to rank golfers based on the current landscape of pro golf.[/size]
Why should they have to?
If a ranking system cannot or will not include certain players, then it must necessarily be the case that the system doesn't function properly as a World Ranking. World Ranking - X players = Not a World Ranking.
So your ranking system, the SAWGR, would include the nine-hole Tuesday men's league? Why not?
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$8 a month. The world is ending.
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The LIV still can't get a national TV deal while Cornhole and Bowling are being televised. The Golf Channel doesn't even show LIV highlights or include results on their ticker. The Saudi's have already said they are pulling out in 2025. Face it LIV is dead. :P
If you want to watch a bunch of overpaid hasbeens you can put on a Lakers or Nets game.
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LIV Golf was televised in Canada this year on CHCH-TV Hamilton, a superstation there akin to WTBS in the old days of cable in the U.S. There were local commercials, just dropped into the LIV feed, albeit carefully, by CHCH. Coverage would be picked back up in mid-sentence.
I'd imagine a network deal would force a rearrangement of the no-commercial policy, unless LIV succeeded in just buying the time. Which would be a drop in the budget bucket compared to some other expenses. LIV didn't want to do it this year, figuring it would hurt the value of whatever rights fee they're aiming for in 2023. But if they don't get a rights fee, then I think they write the check, the way Champ Car did for races on CBS in the late 1990s-early 2000s and other entities have done to get air time over the decades.
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I would like someone to ask one of the players and their wife if they would live in Saudi Arabia for the life of their contract for the money. I would love to hear an honest answer