Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve_ Shaffer on October 25, 2022, 11:16:57 PM
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Club Caddies Sue For Minimum Wage And Overtime Pay
A class action has been filed against Morris County Golf Club (http://www.golfdisputeresolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Yanez-v.-Morris-County-Golf-Club-1.pdf), alleging that the private club (https://www.morriscgc.com/) breached New Jersey law by failing to pay its caddies minimum wage and overtime. As have other lawsuits in recent years, this case raises the issue of whether the caddies serve as employees or independent contractors.
http://www.golfdisputeresolution.com/?p=7758 (http://www.golfdisputeresolution.com/?p=7758)
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I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.
Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.
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I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.
Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.
Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
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The opportunity cost of caddying for anyone under graduate age grows daily.
We need pilots, not real estate agents with connections.
https://www.faa.gov/education/programs/highschool (https://www.faa.gov/education/programs/highschool)
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I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.
Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.
If it’s that disappointing to you then you’d gladly pay more. If it’s not worth it to you then it mustn’t be that disappointing.
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I read the complaint and will be interested in the outcome. Anyone that has caddied learns quickly that there can be a lot of down time waiting for a loop. The phrase “hurry up and wait” could certainly apply to the profession inasmuch as getting to the caddie yard at a requisite time is no guarantee of getting out right away. In my experience staging and then cleaning carts after a round was/is usually the responsibility of the guys that work for the pro rather than caddies but would certainly apply dependent on the club. It’s a double edged sword for the caddies in that as independent contractors all cash income is their responsibility to declare and pay tax on whereas with employee status that ship sails and you get a W2. Anyone that is aware of how this case proceeds hopefully will report back by way of posting on this thread.
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I’ve heard for 12+ months now NJ had been investigating a number of clubs in NJ for this issue. I would assume more to come on this beyond just Morris County Golf Club.
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Anyone who thinks this is a simple issue with one solution...
hasn't run a caddie program for 20 plus years.
Pre-pandemic, this was the topic of nearly every educational program/forum I sat on-especially in the winter of 2019-20.
Since then, we've had bigger fish to fry, but the challenge persists.
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I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.
Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.
Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.
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I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.
Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.
Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.
Less than a buck a hole is something harsh. I always figured kid caddies had access to the course on some Mondays. That's how it was when I last checked.
Ciao
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Jesus, some people are so out of touch.
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I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.
Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.
Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.
Less than a buck a hole is something harsh. I always figured kid caddies had access to the course on some Mondays. That's how it was when I last checked.
Ciao
It didn't seem harsh because money wasn't the point of caddying.
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I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.
Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.
Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.
Less than a buck a hole is something harsh. I always figured kid caddies had access to the course on some Mondays. That's how it was when I last checked.
Ciao
It didn't seem harsh because money wasn't the point of caddying.
Maybe you were a bit unusual. Most kids I know like money 😎. It's ok to see the world through sunny golf glasses, but come on, $15 a round when McDonald's pays that in less than two hours? That's not reasonable.
Ciao
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Sean,
$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?
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Sean,
$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?
Is this a bit?
Basic opportunity cost.
The romance of the idea is what drives the cost up. Every time you post in this thread some caddy charges $10 more per round.
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Sean,
$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?
5 bucks a ball? You don't know me very well. But I get your point. Mention golf as part of a product and tag on x% more.
If I have to have caddie I would prefer a high schooler. Going on your cost analysis a caddie should cost about $25 if a ball is more like $3. That's the cost of cart! Sorry, that ain't gonna fly in today's world...and I don't blame kids for not doing that work for peanuts unless they seriously value the benefit of free golf one day a week. Still, for folks willing to pay for caddies, I think there is room to pay a lot more and offer free golf.
Ciao
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Here in Chicago, there have been changes to almost all caddy programs in the past year because of this issue.
The caddies ALL had to sign docs saying that then were "independent contractors" this season.
At some clubs, the payment now exists solely via the player directly to the caddy instead of through the club's caddymaster who, in the past, paid the caddies in cash then billed the member's account.
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My club allows sons or daughters of members to caddy. In the late ‘80’s, I paid my 12 year old son $25 to carry a single bag. His first experience caddying doubles was the fall Calcutta, at which my partner and I each won $3,000. My partner gave him $300, so I had to give him $300. When we got home, his mother asked him how carrying doubles went. His response, “Mom, when you carry doubles you get $600!”
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Here in Chicago, there have been changes to almost all caddy programs in the past year because of this issue.
The caddies ALL had to sign docs saying that then were "independent contractors" this season.
At some clubs, the payment now exists solely via the player directly to the caddy instead of through the club's caddymaster who, in the past, paid the caddies in cash then billed the member's account.
Teach the kid how the underground economy works……
BTW signing something that’s says you are an independent contractor doesn’t mean anything. There are various tests to meet.
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My club allows sons or daughters of members to caddy. In the late ‘80’s, I paid my 12 year old son $25 to carry a single bag. His first experience caddying doubles was the fall Calcutta, at which my partner and I each won $3,000. My partner gave him $300, so I had to give him $300. When we got home, his mother asked him how carrying doubles went. His response, “Mom, when you carry doubles you get $600!”
I sure learned a ton as a caddy in central NJ in the mid-70's.
$7 per bag was the going rate and I was thrilled if my loop bought me a welch's grape juice at the turn.
We were all in middle or early high school. The "locals" were 40+ year old guys from Trenton who came with cigarettes, "Night Train" and skinny joints.
As a young Canadian (we had just moved to NJ from Toronto), I was "lefty" as I played hockey.
One Monday on "caddy day" i was hitting balls on the range and the caddy master, a journeyman tour pro/prolific ball striker and ex-alcoholic, was watching me while dragging on the onmipresent cigarette.
"Mackenzie", he bellowed, "Get over here."
Trembling and nervous, I slinked over, "Ya, Pete?"
"Here, hit this." as he handed me a right-handed 7 iron.
"But, Pete, this is a righty club," I bleeted.
"No shit...do this this and this", as he showed me grip, stance and set up.
I took a few swings and hit a ball.
"There, you're a righty golfer now. Go play", and he turned and walked away.
That was 46 years ago and he sold me my first set of RH irons: MacGregor Ben Hogans.
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In the early 80s, I had a paper route (rain or shine) to earn a bit of extra cash. And when I worked out the hourly rate years later, I was making about $.25/hour based on the time it took to fold and deliver them every day, and then collect monthly payment.
I was like 12 and I didn't know any better, but thankfully the practice was banned under child labor laws as exploitative.
So to read that $15 for 8-9 hours work is somehow OK? in 2022?....SMH.
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So to read that $15 for 8-9 hours work is somehow OK? in 2022?....SMH.
I'm not sure, but he may have been intending to refer to whatever the inflation-adjusted equivalent of that $15 would now be.
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That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
My club in Ohio tried the app thing for awhile. Wasn't all that popular.
Supposedly the app provided insurance and I assume took a cut.
Not sure if this was the company.
https://clubandresortbusiness.com/new-app-streamlines-caddie-appointments-payment/ (https://clubandresortbusiness.com/new-app-streamlines-caddie-appointments-payment/)
Like Jim one of my regular playing partners had his son push his pushcart around. Paid him lunch, soda and a small amount of cash. I never offered the kid more than his dad but definitely thought about it.
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how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
Yep, I'd say clubs(and staff) would be ecstatic if that were to happen.
nearly as likely as a meteor strike, but yeah, we'd be ecstatic.
I mean, how hard could it be? ;) ;D ;D
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At Bandon the caddie fee is $100 plus gratuity...paid directly to the caddie.
How many high schoolers do you see caddying at Bandon?
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Sean,
$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?
Is this a bit?
Basic opportunity cost.
The romance of the idea is what drives the cost up. Every time you post in this thread some caddy charges $10 more per round.
Kyle (and Sean):
Mike and I are older than you lot. The numbers have changed beyond our recognition.
Kids as caddies are a thing of the past, unless subsidized by the possibility of university scholarships, which is sort of a meritocracy lottery. (I'm surprised I support it, honestly.). The caddie program at CommonGround is based on that, but at least it's also subsidized by people who have won the lottery previously: https://www.coloradogolf.org/solich-caddie-academy/
Otherwise, prevailing wages make caddies a luxury that not many golfers will pay for on a regular basis.
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Sean,
$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?
Is this a bit?
Basic opportunity cost.
The romance of the idea is what drives the cost up. Every time you post in this thread some caddy charges $10 more per round.
Kyle (and Sean):
Mike and I are older than you lot. The numbers have changed beyond our recognition.
Kids as caddies are a thing of the past, unless subsidized by the possibility of university scholarships, which is sort of a meritocracy lottery. (I'm surprised I support it, honestly.). The caddie program at CommonGround is based on that, but at least it's also subsidized by people who have won the lottery previously: https://www.coloradogolf.org/solich-caddie-academy/ (https://www.coloradogolf.org/solich-caddie-academy/)
Otherwise, prevailing wages make caddies a luxury that not many golfers will pay for on a regular basis.
For much longer than my lifetime and yours, caddies have been a luxury that most golfers won't pay for on a regular or even semi regular basis. Caddies are a vestige of the game reserved for a fairly small percentage of wealthy private club members. Even when I was a teenager a kid caddie cost as much as round on a decent public course.
Ciao
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Is charity a luxury reserved only for members of private clubs? Throw a kid a bone.
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The last caddie I had was a retired chemical engineer who lives at his lake house. Before that the guy was going to head to the Russian Bathhouse for a massage after the round.
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Here in Chicago, there have been changes to almost all caddy programs in the past year because of this issue.
The caddies ALL had to sign docs saying that then were "independent contractors" this season.
At some clubs, the payment now exists solely via the player directly to the caddy instead of through the club's caddymaster who, in the past, paid the caddies in cash then billed the member's account.
I caddied in the late 70's and early 80's NW of Chicago. I wonder if things have changed in WGA programs supported there.
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In the mid 1930's my Dad caddied at a club in Westchester County, NY. He was in his early teens and hitch-hiked to the club from his home in White Plains. The fee was 35 cents (not sure if that was for a single bag or two) and the caddie master made the caddies buy a single serving Mrs Wagner's pie for a nickel so he'd come home with 30 cents which I think was a lot of money during the Depression.
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At 14(1976) I started caddying at the club my dad was the head pro at in NJ.
The juniors who were members had to caddy to be able to play that day. There were exceptions when needed, but rarely needed. We also could not play til 200pm
We caddied, got lunch, and balls in the air as soon as 2pm struck! Nobody bitched and we had a blast.
20 bucks to carry 2 bags
Regulars sometimes a bit more. And tournaments with a good result could be a bonanza!
Bought a 1967 Mustang for 700$ cash when I got my license with those earnings.
Best job I could imagine as a kid
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My last trip to Pebble Beach was in 1992, seven days, I had a great caddy by the name of "Foot". He got $100 per day plus a bonus on the last day. He never showed up for the last day, too much drink.
My first round at Cypress Point, I hit my drive and the caddy handed me a 6 iron. I looked at him like he was crazy, but I hit it hole high 15 feet away. I never asked him yardage or anything the rest of the day.
My first round at Royal County Down, I teed off, got to my ball and he handed me a 9 iron.It handed 20 yards short, took a giant bounce and ended up 10 feet from the hole.
I was in a bunker on the 2nd hole at Pine Valley. My caddy told me to hit it 40 feet left of the hole and I wound up with a tap in.
Great memories, wow, its 2022, these memories are 30-40 years old, I'm shocked they just popped up in my mind. Now if I could only remember my wife's name.
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Would love to hear from Archie and Chappers on this topic.
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I don’t know what became of it but in my last years at Four Streams, the caddies joined some kind of caddie company with health care etc. it seems they were paid out of some pool. At the Dormie Clubs caddie fees are charged to our accounts but we tip them. Not sure how that works or if they are employees of the club.
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Pat,
That sounds very reasonable. $20 in 1976 would be worth $104 in 2022.
Cary
I wish I knew you back then. $100 in 1992 is $211 today. Barney is certainly smiling at that! ;D
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In the Chicago area, essentially all of the private clubs have caddy programs. Members are "encouraged" to contribute to the Evans Scholar Foundation. While most clubs have a few adult professional caddies, the backbone of the program is high school and college students. They spend the summer outdoors, make a good buck and have a chance to earn a scholarship. Our club has its own scholarship program for employees and their children. Caddies are eligible for this program which supplements the Evans. Some time ago, the Daniel Murphy Foundation became a feeder by providing opportunities to inner city high school students and the Evans Foundation has followed suit with caddy academies for high school students. This summer at our club we had several caddies from the inner city as well as some from as far away as New York. On top of everything else, the students are introduced to golf and meet and talk to individuals who they might never have been exposed to absent the job. The experience can be very valuable. This is all possible because of the dedication of the employees and Board of the Foundation and the "buy in" from the clubs. Several public courses have started their own caddy programs in connection with the Foundation. At my club, in season, our caddy rounds exceed our cart rounds even though it is a little more expensive. It is a great way to play and it does a lot of good. It is a shame that the program is not widespread.
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;D 8) ???
This isn't the first time caddie "wages" were under review. Hope that it stays static and allows loopers under the age of 18 to work without paying taxes on their income.
It's great having a caddie who knows his business. Probably the best way to play, particularly if he/she is quiet and attentive. For me it's typically a special occasion or course when I get to play with a caddie these days. Obviously we were well paid at Pine Valley but in many ways my early years at Woodcrest were the best. At first I carried one bag and a putter ( 1967-68 age 11-12) and made about $8-12 a round depending on how much the cart player decided to give you above the rate ... then two and two when the caddie master thought I could handle a whole group on my own. However as I got better and older had many putter jobs where you had two carts and you just managed the whole game for the players. Best way to describe it was an expediter with key on fore- caddying and reading greens raking traps etc for whoever wanted that service. By age 17-18 was making about 20-25$ round doing that . As a college freshman went to nearby Pine Valley and carried a lot of double rounds daily which was why it was very lucrative.
Have often thought that having younger caddies do the fore-caddie job for a little less pay would make a lot of sense. Many of my friends and I would use them as it is a pleasure to have a good one and speeds play. However many clubs might fear lawsuits if they got hit with a ball or screwed up and got hurt moving a cart at age 13-16 ....in our day it just didn't happen . Sorry to all my legal buddies out there but :P ::) :P of course our parents never harass little league umpires either lol !
$100 to $150 a bag is pretty pricey for many of us so if there were another option to have a caddie accompany you in scenario two for say $10-15 a person and do some basic "stuff" it would open up more jobs for loopers without losing cart revenue for the club
$50 -60 a round for fore-caddies with some playing privileges for good work doesn't seem like indentured servitude to me for a young person..
p.s. thanks for the shout out Jeff and I remain in awe of the midwest and the Evans program ... you guys are the shit
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There is no question that Caddies are expensive, but we almost uniformly have found that they add great value to the experience, particularly when we are playing on a trip. And sometimes that value add is vicarious in seeing a fellow player follow a Caddie’s advice successfully. Just yesterday, we had a very good Caddie at Southern Pines who went out of his way to assist the elderly couple with whom we were paired. On number 7, the husband hit a terrific shot to about 8 feet, but it was a wicked downhill breaker. My Caddie stepped in to show him the spot to which to let the putt die. When the putt dropped dead center, all of us could not have been more delighted.
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"This isn't the first time caddie "wages" were under review. Hope that it stays static and allows loopers under the age of 18 to work without paying taxes on their income."
I've been a CPA for 35 years and never knew there was a tax exemption for caddies under the age of 18 ;D
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Streamsong just sent an offer for a premium room that includes Butler service from 6 am to 10 pm. If I could get Hobson to get me up and tuck me in, I’m there.
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The last time I took a caddie, it was a double bag. We paid a standard rate, nothing over the normal at that club. After the round I made a quick calculation that the guy carrying my golf bag just made more than the average regional airline first officer at many carriers.
The market dictates what it dictates. I’m fine with that. But you can’t tell me that’s not a little wonky.
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In the last few years caddies have started taking carts for themselves. Spent four days at Pebble with a caddie that said it was impossible for him to carry double. Requesting a caddie that is healthy enough to walk on his own feels ableist, elitist and duplicitous. There is something wrong with forcing a man to walk as he services you.
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In the last few years caddies have started taking carts for themselves. Spent four days at Pebble with a caddie that said it was impossible for him to carry double. Requesting a caddie that is healthy enough to walk on his own feels ableist, elitist and duplicitous. There is something wrong with forcing a man to walk as he services you.
You might want to re-word that last sentence.
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Pat,
That sounds very reasonable. $20 in 1976 would be worth $104 in 2022.
Cary
I wish I knew you back then. $100 in 1992 is $211 today. Barney is certainly smiling at that! ;D
Kalen
It was very good back then
Bought my first car with a wad of $20 bills when I was 17. Guy looked at me kind of crosseyed :D
Learned a lot, had a big impact on my ability to play ( and enjoy) pro-ams.
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::) ::)
Rob , my bad on the taxes for kids mistake , had a senior moment I guess.
We've revisited caddies on board here for a couple decades and prices keep going up. That's fine for some affluent clubs and not unexpected. However I am always amazed that not many would opt for a fore-caddie who raked traps, gave yardages, read greens and moved carts to expedite play.
I for one would take one at least two or three times a week at our club. Do you guys really think $60-70 bucks a round for young caddies would be akin to slave labor ? Don't think it's that bad for a younger looper that doesn't have to carry a bag.
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Just busting your chops Archie.
I was playing a course in Florida and met a woman from Chicago who was a strong player looking to join the club. I can’t remember what course she was a member at but she told me before 2 or 3 in the afternoon you had to take a caddie. I played 80 rounds this year. That would be another $8k on my bill. That’s a tough swallow for an already expensive hobby.
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In the last few years caddies have started taking carts for themselves. Spent four days at Pebble with a caddie that said it was impossible for him to carry double. Requesting a caddie that is healthy enough to walk on his own feels ableist, elitist and duplicitous. There is something wrong with forcing a man to walk as he services you.
You might want to re-word that last sentence.
That tickled my funny bone.
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how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?
Ciao
Yep, I'd say clubs(and staff) would be ecstatic if that were to happen.
nearly as likely as a meteor strike, but yeah, we'd be ecstatic.
I mean, how hard could it be? ;) ;D ;D
I really don't know. So much these days is bookable online or with an app. Shit, I book taxis with WhatsApp once I learned who the good drivers are.
Ciao