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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ian Mackenzie on September 20, 2022, 04:00:35 PM

Title: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on September 20, 2022, 04:00:35 PM

Apparently all 50 LIV players signed some sort of written "request" for OWGR points for these 54 hole, no-cut exhibitions they put in every few weeks.to a Peter Dawson who is chief of the OWGR.
Another example of wanting it both ways even though they knew what would happen but the lure of the fat liquidity event was just too much. In the letter they cite:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/2022/09/20/liv-golfers-call-immediate-world-ranking-points-rebel-series/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/2022/09/20/liv-golfers-call-immediate-world-ranking-points-rebel-series/)

LIV golfers call for immediate world ranking points for rebel series events
"An OWGR without LIV would be incomplete and inaccurate, the equivalent of leaving the Big 10 or the SEC out of the US college football rankings, or leaving Belgium, Argentina, and England out of the Fifa rankings… We call on you to render a positive decision quickly."

Perhaps accurate if:

1. The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not.

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours.

How can you have comparable OWGR points when the two "tours" are playing a substantially different game?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: jeffwarne on September 20, 2022, 04:06:43 PM
Golf fans can't get enough of the videos of Bryson DeChambeau getting clotheslined by a gallery rope | This is the Loop | GolfDigest.com (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bryson-dechambeau-liv-golf-gallery-rope-injury-video-twitter-reaction)




This IS indeed world class stuff

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 20, 2022, 04:07:26 PM
I translated that last bit for everyone from the OP!   ;D

----------------------------------------------------


Perhaps accurate if:

1) The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not..

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours. Apparently, others agree with him. This fish stinks from its white head! Have your own "Masters" or wait on an INVITE from ANGC. Feel free to qualify for the US and British Opens. PGA? Sorry, you can have a LIV Championship.

OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on September 20, 2022, 04:11:10 PM
I translated that last bit for everyone from the OP!   ;D

----------------------------------------------------


Perhaps accurate if:

1) The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not..

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours. Apparently, others agree with him. This fish stinks from its white head! Have your own "Masters" or wait on an INVITE from ANGC. Feel free to qualify for the US and British Opens. PGA? Sorry, you can have a LIV Championship.

OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys.


It is really fatiguing how this cite messes with posts with the "Color/Size" paragraph nonsense.
Have been editing my OP for 10 mins and it is still not right.


Thanks, Kalen.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 20, 2022, 04:13:57 PM
I translated that last bit for everyone from the OP!   ;D

----------------------------------------------------


Perhaps accurate if:

1) The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not..

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours. Apparently, others agree with him. This fish stinks from its white head! Have your own "Masters" or wait on an INVITE from ANGC. Feel free to qualify for the US and British Opens. PGA? Sorry, you can have a LIV Championship.

OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys.

It is really fatiguing how this cite messes with posts with the "Color/Size" paragraph nonsense.
Have been editing my OP for 10 mins and it is still not right.

Thanks, Kalen.


Not a problem Ian,

One trick to try next time is copy it into a plain text notepad document, get rid of all the braces, and when you save it, any remaining formatting will be gone.  Then you can copy it back into a post.

Good luck!
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David_Tepper on September 20, 2022, 04:24:10 PM
"OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys."                                       

Kalen -   You nailed it. Thanks!   DT
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on September 20, 2022, 04:25:41 PM
"OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys."
Kalen -You nailed it. Thanks!
DT


That was my line, David...;-)
Kalen saw I was having tech issues...;-) I was editing my post with all the isses and Kalen pasted that from an edit that i deleted...;-)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Peter Flory on September 20, 2022, 04:36:12 PM
If the LIV tour switches to 90 hole events next year, would you recommend giving them more OWGR points than the PGA tour? 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ken Moum on September 20, 2022, 04:49:38 PM
From the messages between Sergio and GN we know that he promised Sergio that "They can't ban you for a day, much less forever. "


One has to guess that Norman and the LIV lawyers told everyone that the tours would never get away with bans.


And that OWGR just had to give points with all you great players in the LIV system.


You can hear it in the talking points. Phil just said, "The PGATour will never again have all the best players."


Somebody is crafting that kind of messaging.


FWIW,  I think the PGA Tour is potentially creating a problem by listening to Tiger and Rory re. the elevated events.


Unless they're not dominated by US locations they'll screw players like Rahm and Fitzgerald...making Norman look generous.


And if they inevitably widen the income gap between the "top" players and the peasants then how do we know if they're still the top players?


It's the biggest flaw LIV has IMHO.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on September 20, 2022, 05:08:04 PM
If the LIV tour switches to 90 hole events next year, would you recommend giving them more OWGR points than the PGA tour?


I would recommend following the standards used by the OWGR itself.
Currently, they create their rankings from players who compete in 72 hole events. They list 23 Tours.


Male tours play 72 hole events. Your hypothetical question is irrelevant. LIV guys play a watered-down interpretation of what is needed to get OWGR points.


LIV is the ultmate exlusive club not open to these other 23 tours. In fact, you can readily kicked out of it if Emir bin Norman says so. It has been created on its own, stole players (legally) from these tours and now whines daily about how it can't have its benefits.


what a petulant, snot-nosed  bunch of Trusta-Farian A-Holes.


The answer is "No".


Oh, and BTW, they are suing some the founding organizations of the OWGR while asking for its mercy.


Ive never heard of such arrogance.

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Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on September 20, 2022, 05:16:22 PM


You can hear it in the talking points. Phil just said, "The PGATour will never again have all the best players."


Somebody is crafting that kind of messaging.



I think that can be said TODAY. The LIV dudes could just look at the OWGR rankings and cherry pick who they wanted to offer 7-8 figures to. That is NOT a sustainable model.


Plus, it works well (for the House of Saud) when oil was at $125+ when this mess all started.
Watch what happens when oil falls and their business model is pressured to actually sustain itself.


Oil is below $90 today.
It was $40 just two years ago.


How patient will the Saudis really be?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Philip Caccamise on September 20, 2022, 06:15:02 PM


You can hear it in the talking points. Phil just said, "The PGATour will never again have all the best players."


Somebody is crafting that kind of messaging.





I think that can be said TODAY. The LIV dudes could just look at the OWGR rankings and cherry pick who they wanted to offer 7-8 figures to. That is NOT a sustainable model.


Plus, it works well (for the House of Saud) when oil was at $125+ when this mess all started.
Watch what happens when oil falls and their business model is pressured to actually sustain itself.


Oil is below $90 today.
It was $40 just two years ago.


How patient will the Saudis really be?


YouTube streaming pays about $0.50 per 1,000 viewers.


LIV Golf averaged 50k for Chicago.


Enjoy the $25, Greg... only $19,999,975 short on the prize pool on this one
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 20, 2022, 06:47:22 PM
Why so angry? Even the NFL is streaming games on Amazon.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Daryl David on September 20, 2022, 07:06:55 PM
Why so angry? Even the NFL is streaming games on Amazon.


Exactly. Why all the hate?  Let them play wherever they want for whatever amount of holes they want.  No one is making anyone watch or care about it. Live and let live.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Peter Flory on September 20, 2022, 07:31:52 PM
Putting the unattractiveness of LIV aside, does it make sense for the professional world of golf to have a gatekeeper (the OWGR) that consists of all the incumbents? 


Why isn't the OWGR an independent body? 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 20, 2022, 07:47:23 PM
Saturday I got home from golfing my own ball and needed some dead time to unwind. Went to YouTube and watched the last 30 mins of LIV. Cam vs DJ with a taste of Pat Perez. The shotgun start is the best thing I have ever seen from strictly an entertainment perspective. Betting on the team event as opposed to individuals is what makes me tick. Just got a Four Aces tattoo on my virtual ass.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Philip Caccamise on September 20, 2022, 08:04:59 PM
Why so angry? Even the NFL is streaming games on Amazon.


So questioning the viability of a business when it's clearly doomed to fail is "angry"?


Huh?


You do realize the NFL on Amazon is a completely different business model, right (and drew millions of viewers?)


https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/20/amazon-thursday-night-football-nfl-stream-draws-record-prime-signups.html
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 20, 2022, 08:18:43 PM
The LIV is not doomed to failure. Do you think that when they started there was any hope of signing the Open Champion this soon? I am amazed at how well it is going.


Yes I know the NFL is a different model. Amazon didn’t look bright either paying 13B.


I thought Magic overpaid for the Dodgers. “How much” is a farce created to make stupid people think that elitism is a disease. 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on September 20, 2022, 08:44:18 PM
If the LIV tour switches to 90 hole events next year, would you recommend giving them more OWGR points than the PGA tour?
Ok, forget the number of holes for a moment.


Do you know of any no-cut shotgun start events in which many of the players are apparently not playing for actual prize money until they reach their guarantee that currently receive ranking points? 


As to the number of holes, surely you aren’t suggesting that it’s as easy to win a 72 hole event as it is a 54 hole event.  Greg Norman is NOT a Masters champion because he had to play the 4th round. And there are LOTS of others throughout golf history.  I know that you know this.


Play the same format as other professional golf tournaments.  If you don’t, expect to be treated differently.  It’s the way life works.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 20, 2022, 08:51:20 PM
Ask yourself if you were tasked to define the best golfers in the world would you include the Champion Golfer of that said world? As far as the number of holes in any given tournament it’s only the last nine that matters. If you’ve never blown a lead you’d never get that.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: cary lichtenstein on September 20, 2022, 08:57:53 PM
Saturday I got home from golfing my own ball and needed some dead time to unwind. Went to YouTube and watched the last 30 mins of LIV. Cam vs DJ with a taste of Pat Perez. The shotgun start is the best thing I have ever seen from strictly an entertainment perspective. Betting on the team event as opposed to individuals is what makes me tick. Just got a Four Aces tattoo on my virtual ass.


Now that is something we'd all like for you to post, lol
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Craig Sweet on September 20, 2022, 09:27:06 PM
The 54 Hole Tour thinks it's pretty special. 


Norman's ego is larger than a 54 Hole Tour field.  Thank god Chrissy Everett got out with limited trauma from living with that ass clown.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on September 20, 2022, 09:27:53 PM
I appreciate Peter's line of questions here.

There was once a time in which major championships were determined after 36 holes on the final day. When they changed to 18 a day for 4 days there was a public backlash that the change was going to water down the challenge and reduce the number of "real" champions.

There was also a time in which major championship playoffs were 18 holes. When that rule was changed there was a public backlash that the change was going to water down the challenge and reduce the number of "real" champions.

There was also a time in which the British open was contested over 3, 12 hole round, the next year 2, 18 hole rounds, and the next year 4, 9 hole rounds.

The point being. 72 holes of stroke play over 4 days is somewhat arbitrary. Saying its the only way tournaments can be played is not historically accurate in the slightest. Assuming that golf should not or can not be played in a different format is not accurate and biased. Not wanting change is very different than not recognizing that change is possible, change has happened before, and change is likely to occur in the future.

Why is the 100m sprint the crown jewel of track and field and the 1600 meter is relegated to non-prime time?

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on September 20, 2022, 09:34:48 PM
When an event like Wentworth is reduced to 54 holes for extenuating circumstances, do they only earn 75% of their original OWGR points?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Bill Seitz on September 20, 2022, 10:12:29 PM
There are seven stated criteria that I've seen for OWGR points.  Not sure if they're the only 7, but of the seven I've seen, LIV has satisfied one.  That's it.  It's not a situation where they're going to OWGR and saying "we've done our best to comply, so given the unique situation, please fast-track our application".  They're saying "Hey, eff you guys, just give us points even though we have deliberately given the middle finger to your rules."  The rules exist and they weren't created or changed to discriminate against LIV.  LIV made the choice not to comply.


I have minor issues with things like 54 holes, no cut, no spots for local players.  I have a big problem with LIV's lack of discernible criteria for qualification.  I can turn on a PGA Tour event, and despite a handful of sponsors' exemptions, I know that every player teeing it up earned their spot in the field under the criteria established by the Tour.  You can argue that the Tour should change it's rules, that it allows too many older players in because of life memberships, or other earnings based exemptions.  There's a good argument to be made that a non-competitive Davis Love should not be in PGA Tour fields.  But the fact is that he has qualified under the Tour's rules. Meanwhile, Chase Koepka and Peter Uihlein have had years to prove that they do not belong in top tier competitive golf tournaments.  I don't know anyone getting into PGA Tour events based on who is in their family.  Combine that with small fields, which means much of the field is made up of guys who simply couldn't qualify for the PGA Tour, and, well, I'm not that impressed that Cam Smith and DJ can beat 12-15 good players and a bunch of tomato cans.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on September 20, 2022, 11:40:18 PM

When an event like Wentworth is reduced to 54 holes for extenuating circumstances, do they only earn 75% of their original OWGR points?

I think full points, but curtailed events to 36 holes receive 75% of their calculated points:
Official World Golf Ranking - Ranking Explained (owgr.com) (https://www.owgr.com/how-the-ranking-works)

Has anyone in this thread actually seen the criteria or is everyone just parroting what their preferred media source is saying?

I've spent a bit over an hour trying to find the specific criteria for inclusion and couldn't find it.  If anyone has the specific inclusion criteria I'd be interested in seeing them.  There is a good amount of information that indicates how points/rankings are calculated and coincidentally there was a pretty major change that went into effect last month.  PowerPoint Presentation (kc-usercontent.com) (https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/00be6aeb-6ab1-00f0-f77a-4c8f38e69314/5d9ad351-661a-41b8-8170-0bea66b92e7a/OWGR%20-%20Modified%20System%20Information%20-%20FINAL.pdf)  All that being said it seems the board can say any event they want gets points as the Chevron World Challenge earned points with no cut, and very limited field.  Also they can say screw the calculations and give an event whatever points the board deems appropriate...see the majors getting high points regardless of what the calculations say they should.

Not sure where the outrage over the 54 hole events is coming from.  It's pretty clear 54 hole events can earn points.  I just googled the first tour listed as an official OWGR tour (AbemaTV Tour...yeah sure they deserve their points) and any guesses on how many holes they play?

If the stated mission of the OWGR was to obtain a global assessment of the best players in the world I would think LIV should be included.  However the mission is only to assess player performance in eligible golf tours.  It's clear LIV is not currently an eligible golf tour.  Should it be?  People clearly have pretty strong opinions that they shouldn't be eligible.

Interestingly the OWGR seems to have started in response to the relative dominance of the US PGA Tour money list and the R&A wanted to find the best players worldwide and used the Sony World rankings (what became the OWGR) as an exemption criteria for The Open.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 21, 2022, 02:21:16 AM
Joe is correct. There weren't many Americans coming over to the British (!) Open in the early 1980s because most had to qualify. One year less than two dozen Americans made the trip, I recall, and ABC made a point of mentioning it on its coverage. The R&A, wanting to beef up the field, looked at Mark McCormack's annual rankings in his World of Professional Golf tome – McCormack also sold TV rights to the tournament overseas, including to ABC, and was a commentator on the BBC broadcast – and needed a version to have a rolling, changing ranking after each week of play. McCormack found Sony as a sponsor and the world golf ranking was born.


The R&A, thus rescued by McCormack, then adjusted its qualifications and the top players earned automatic berths. The other majors followed in the late 1990s.


Yes, 54-hole tournaments can earn points, but they're supposed to be limited to developmental tours. If LIV's executives were smart, they would designate their Thursday pro-am as an official round (all 48 players are in it) and voila, you have 72 holes of stroke-play golf. Then designate the bottom third of the field as playing only for a team score in the final two rounds and you have yourself a cut for the individual stroke play competition down to the low 32. Then it would be difficult to argue against those 32 earning points, except out of spite.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim Leahy on September 21, 2022, 02:24:58 AM
If they are going to give OWGR to LIV then why not give them to the Champions Tour also. After all there are more former major winners playing on the Champions Tour than LIV and you can watch them on TV most weekends. ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pete Lavallee on September 21, 2022, 05:38:13 AM
Sadly they’ve boxed themselves into a corner because LXXII isn’t a word!
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on September 21, 2022, 08:00:33 AM
I appreciate Peter's line of questions here.

There was once a time in which major championships were determined after 36 holes on the final day. When they changed to 18 a day for 4 days there was a public backlash that the change was going to water down the challenge and reduce the number of "real" champions.

There was also a time in which major championship playoffs were 18 holes. When that rule was changed there was a public backlash that the change was going to water down the challenge and reduce the number of "real" champions.

There was also a time in which the British open was contested over 3, 12 hole round, the next year 2, 18 hole rounds, and the next year 4, 9 hole rounds.

The point being. 72 holes of stroke play over 4 days is somewhat arbitrary. Saying its the only way tournaments can be played is not historically accurate in the slightest. Assuming that golf should not or can not be played in a different format is not accurate and biased. Not wanting change is very different than not recognizing that change is possible, change has happened before, and change is likely to occur in the future.

Why is the 100m sprint the crown jewel of track and field and the 1600 meter is relegated to non-prime time?


Wait a minute.


Pointing out (correctly) that final round and playoff formats have changed over the years, and then using that to say that 72 holes of stroke play is “arbitrary” requires a leap of logic over the Grand Canyon.  72 holes has been THE standard in professional golf for longer than any of us have been alive; that’s not “arbitrary”.


It is a well-established and very simple fact that the OWGR guidelines call for a 72 hole format with a cut after 36 holes, and I read that there are 23 tours that comply with this and get ranking points accordingly.  The LIV Tour chooses not to, which is fine.  But to choose not to and then ask to be treated as if you are the same is just juvenile.

The playoff formats were changed for TV, and we could argue the merits of that endlessly. But that is quite different from moving from 72 holes over 4 days to 54 holes over 3 days.  There is just no way around that.  It’s 3 quarters of basketball or football, and comebacks and collapses happen ALL THE TIME, just as they do in golf.


One of the really odd things about this debate ON THIS SITE is that little or no attention is being paid to the shotgun start.  I think all of us SHOULD understand that even a split tee start is problematic in terms of every player playing the same golf course, but a shotgun is well beyond that.  To think that any sequence of holes is going to be the same as any other sequence of holes is just silly, and every person on a golf course architecture sire knows that.  Or should…
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 21, 2022, 09:05:13 AM
The NBA could change to three quarters and no results would change. They’d just play hard earlier.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on September 21, 2022, 10:22:56 AM
I heard this morning on Michael Breed's show that it took two years for Tigers Hero event to get certified for world ranking points and they needed to make changes for that to happen. LIV thinks they should get in immediately?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on September 21, 2022, 10:23:38 AM
Pointing out (correctly) that final round and playoff formats have changed over the years, and then using that to say that 72 holes of stroke play is “arbitrary” requires a leap of logic over the Grand Canyon.  72 holes has been THE standard in professional golf for longer than any of us have been alive; that’s not “arbitrary”.
Within the last 2 decades the pga tour has held 90 hole stroke play events, 126 hole match play events, Stableford events, and 2 man team events. 72 stroke play may be common, but it is not the only standard.

The playoff formats were changed for TV, and we could argue the merits of that endlessly. But that is quite different from moving from 72 holes over 4 days to 54 holes over 3 days.
Is it? Professional Golf as it exist today is primarily an entertainment product. We all like to believe tournaments are pillars of pure sport and competition, but outside of the majors we all know that's not true. Even then the majors are a balance between pure competition and entertainment spectacle. An entertainment product that has been continuously tuned and tweaked for broad consumption. So if a 36 hole Saturday finish in a major is moved to 18 Saturday and 18 Sunday and if an 18 hole playoff is shortened to sudden death or a short series of holes all in the name of providing a better entertainment product, then why is it so far fetched to think LIV's format is not based on the same logic, or that logic is flawed?

One of the really odd things about this debate ON THIS SITE is that little or no attention is being paid to the shotgun start.  I think all of us SHOULD understand that even a split tee start is problematic in terms of every player playing the same golf course, but a shotgun is well beyond that.  To think that any sequence of holes is going to be the same as any other sequence of holes is just silly, and every person on a golf course architecture sire knows that.  Or should…
This is a continuation of golf being presented for entertainment first. If one was going to watch the entirety of a LIV tournament it would take them ~15 hours over 3 days. If one was going to attempt to watch the entirety of a PGA Tour event it would take them more than 3 times as long. The shotgun allow the event to be condensed in a way that afford more complete viewership.

The shotgun format has virtually zero bearing on the leaderboard during the first 2 days. And any gripe would be similar, if not less impactful, than the morning/afternoon split you see during Thur/Fri tee times on the PGA tour. There is some gripe to the format impacting the last day, but its still also very little. The leaders still tee off on 1, 2nd place group tees off on 2, 3rd place on 3, etc... So for 17 holes you're still watching the leaders play a hole immediately after the chasers did. The only difference is what happens with the the players playing different 18th holes. But this is an area where the broadcast could do a good job of walking the viewer through the challenge faced by one player finishing up on 18 and another finishing up on 1. Especially being that both players have already played the other hole during their round. At that point you could easily speak to how hard the hole is playing on the day and how the other leader played it, to better frame the current action.

But, if viewers are unable to adapt, one modification I could see being made to the format in this regard is for the final day have the last 4 or 5 tee times all starting on 1 in sequence, and the last place 3 some starting on 12. That way the top 12-15 players would play in the sequence we're accustom to, but the overall broadcast time is still kept manageable.

Regardless. There is a significant amount of "they can't do that because that's not the way it's been done" mentality around the format, which simply isn't true. The format that golf is played under has and will continue to change. Assuming it can not change or discrediting any change is short sided.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Bill Seitz on September 21, 2022, 10:45:05 AM
Has anyone in this thread actually seen the criteria or is everyone just parroting what their preferred media source is saying?


Someone posted a list to twitter yesterday.  I can't vouch for its veracity or exclusivity, but the criteria are all things that have been discussed in media reports:


1. An embrace of inclusion and promoting non-discriminatory practices.


2. Competitions contested over 72 holes, except for developmental tours (like the Abema TV Tour, the Alps Golf Tour, or the Europro Tour, among others) which are permitted to be 54 hole events.


3. An open annual qualifying school held before the start of each season.


4. A field size on average of 75 players over the course of the season.


5. a 36-hole cut, whether playing 54 or 72 holes.


6. A clear opportunity to progress to a full member tour, that is, to one of the six members of the International Federation of PGA Tours.


7. Reasonable access for local and regional players (i.e. Monday qualifiers) at each of its tournaments.


Obviously not every PGA tour sanctioned event meets all of these, but on the whole, the Tours receiving points are compliant, with some specific exemptions for certain events.  LIV, on the other hand, fails to meet pretty much every single one.  It's one thing to ask for a certain event to get points despite not meeting all of the criteria.  LIV wants all of its events to get points despite not meeting ANY of the criteria, except maybe #1 and #6, which may be inapplicable if they consider themselves a premier tour.


You can argue whether these rules are arbitrary, or in need of amending, or whatever, but they exist (allegedly) , and LIV has made virtually no effort to comply with them.  There's also no evidence of unfair treatment, despite LIV's claims of bias inherent in the governing board.  For me, the static nature of the Tour is a problem.  We can all judge how good the LIV guys are vs. PGA Tour guys because we have a lot of recent results to use for comparison's sake.  What about five years from now?  If you lose your game on the PGA Tour, you play your way off, and vice versa.  LIV guys can just suck and cash seven figure checks because they got randomly assigned to a good "team" (which is also a dumb concept, IMO). 





Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on September 21, 2022, 11:21:41 AM
The NBA could change to three quarters and no results would change. They’d just play hard earlier.
So you're saying depth and foul trouble don't matter in the NBA?  Interesting.  I coached basketball for a long, long time, though never in the NBA, of course, and I always found the fourth quarter to be a test of those things, among others.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on September 21, 2022, 11:26:48 AM
Pointing out (correctly) that final round and playoff formats have changed over the years, and then using that to say that 72 holes of stroke play is “arbitrary” requires a leap of logic over the Grand Canyon.  72 holes has been THE standard in professional golf for longer than any of us have been alive; that’s not “arbitrary”.
Within the last 2 decades the pga tour has held 90 hole stroke play events, 126 hole match play events, Stableford events, and 2 man team events. 72 stroke play may be common, but it is not the only standard.

The playoff formats were changed for TV, and we could argue the merits of that endlessly. But that is quite different from moving from 72 holes over 4 days to 54 holes over 3 days.
Is it? Professional Golf as it exist today is primarily an entertainment product. We all like to believe tournaments are pillars of pure sport and competition, but outside of the majors we all know that's not true. Even then the majors are a balance between pure competition and entertainment spectacle. An entertainment product that has been continuously tuned and tweaked for broad consumption. So if a 36 hole Saturday finish in a major is moved to 18 Saturday and 18 Sunday and if an 18 hole playoff is shortened to sudden death or a short series of holes all in the name of providing a better entertainment product, then why is it so far fetched to think LIV's format is not based on the same logic, or that logic is flawed?

One of the really odd things about this debate ON THIS SITE is that little or no attention is being paid to the shotgun start.  I think all of us SHOULD understand that even a split tee start is problematic in terms of every player playing the same golf course, but a shotgun is well beyond that.  To think that any sequence of holes is going to be the same as any other sequence of holes is just silly, and every person on a golf course architecture sire knows that.  Or should…
This is a continuation of golf being presented for entertainment first. If one was going to watch the entirety of a LIV tournament it would take them ~15 hours over 3 days. If one was going to attempt to watch the entirety of a PGA Tour event it would take them more than 3 times as long. The shotgun allow the event to be condensed in a way that afford more complete viewership.

The shotgun format has virtually zero bearing on the leaderboard during the first 2 days. And any gripe would be similar, if not less impactful, than the morning/afternoon split you see during Thur/Fri tee times on the PGA tour. There is some gripe to the format impacting the last day, but its still also very little. The leaders still tee off on 1, 2nd place group tees off on 2, 3rd place on 3, etc... So for 17 holes you're still watching the leaders play a hole immediately after the chasers did. The only difference is what happens with the the players playing different 18th holes. But this is an area where the broadcast could do a good job of walking the viewer through the challenge faced by one player finishing up on 18 and another finishing up on 1. Especially being that both players have already played the other hole during their round. At that point you could easily speak to how hard the hole is playing on the day and how the other leader played it, to better frame the current action.

But, if viewers are unable to adapt, one modification I could see being made to the format in this regard is for the final day have the last 4 or 5 tee times all starting on 1 in sequence, and the last place 3 some starting on 12. That way the top 12-15 players would play in the sequence we're accustom to, but the overall broadcast time is still kept manageable.

Regardless. There is a significant amount of "they can't do that because that's not the way it's been done" mentality around the format, which simply isn't true. The format that golf is played under has and will continue to change. Assuming it can not change or discrediting any change is short sided.
Ben,
You are incorrect, and you are welcome to go the OWGR website and read it for yourself.  Neither I nor anybody else has ever asserted that 72 holes with a 36 hole cut is the ONLY way that tournament golf is played, and the only format for which ranking points are awarded.
But if you are claiming that 72/36 is NOT the standard you are just wrong, and if you are claiming that somehow 54/0 is comparable, you are more than wrong.  Sorry.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ken Moum on September 21, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
Now it appears that the Great Narcissist is claiming that Scheffler isn't the no. 1 player in the world.


He thinks Dustin and Cam are better.


https://www.golfwrx.com/695258/greg-norman-makes-bold-claim-over-over-liv-duo-disrespecting-scottie-scheffler-in-the-process/
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Dave Doxey on September 21, 2022, 11:43:35 AM
A top skilled golfer is a top skilled golfer, regardless of which tour he plays on.  Pretending otherwise is silly.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on September 21, 2022, 12:06:13 PM
A top skilled golfer is a top skilled golfer, regardless of which tour he plays on.  Pretending otherwise is silly.


Who is saying that the golfers aren’t skilled?


For purposes of ranking points, the FORMAT, not the players, is the issue.


That’s not a judgment call about depth of field or anything else; they are asking for VERY large exceptions to the OWGR standards, and not just the number of holes. Pretending otherwise is silly.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 21, 2022, 12:21:00 PM
The NBA could change to three quarters and no results would change. They’d just play hard earlier.
So you're saying depth and foul trouble don't matter in the NBA?  Interesting.  I coached basketball for a long, long time, though never in the NBA, of course, and I always found the fourth quarter to be a test of those things, among others.


You have to respect that rare trait that distinguishes the difference between winners, maintainers and losers. 12 fewer minutes will not elevate a pretender.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on September 21, 2022, 01:05:58 PM
Ben,
You are incorrect, and you are welcome to go the OWGR website and read it for yourself.  Neither I nor anybody else has ever asserted that 72 holes with a 36 hole cut is the ONLY way that tournament golf is played, and the only format for which ranking points are awarded.
But if you are claiming that 72/36 is NOT the standard you are just wrong, and if you are claiming that somehow 54/0 is comparable, you are more than wrong.  Sorry.

A.G.
I feel like this point is worth reiterating:

There is a significant amount of "they can't do that because that's not the way it's been done" mentality around the format, which simply isn't true.

This seems to be where you're head is living these days. Especially when reading your reply to Peter's 90 holes question.

My participation in this thread was started on this notion that how things are done today are not the only way they could be done.  While the current structure of the OWGR does not mesh with what LIV has started with, I don't see where either is set in stone, especially since LIV is operating in its infancy and the OWGR very recently changed how it operates.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 21, 2022, 02:00:21 PM
Ben,
You are incorrect, and you are welcome to go the OWGR website and read it for yourself.  Neither I nor anybody else has ever asserted that 72 holes with a 36 hole cut is the ONLY way that tournament golf is played, and the only format for which ranking points are awarded.
But if you are claiming that 72/36 is NOT the standard you are just wrong, and if you are claiming that somehow 54/0 is comparable, you are more than wrong.  Sorry.

A.G.
I feel like this point is worth reiterating:

There is a significant amount of "they can't do that because that's not the way it's been done" mentality around the format, which simply isn't true.

This seems to be where you're head is living these days. Especially when reading your reply to Peter's 90 holes question.

My participation in this thread was started on this notion that how things are done today are not the only way they could be done.  While the current structure of the OWGR does not mesh with what LIV has started with, I don't see where either is set in stone, especially since LIV is operating in its infancy and the OWGR very recently changed how it operates.


Ben,

I read it differently.  I see it as how to run an event with integrity based on past lessons learned.

Its been very clear from the start that LIV is about the money and grudges, not the integrity of the actual golf tournaments.



Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 21, 2022, 02:09:43 PM


Its been very clear from the start that LIV is about the money and grudges, not the integrity of the actual golf tournaments.


Please explain without involving politics. You said very clear.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Bruce Katona on September 21, 2022, 02:24:27 PM
"Just got a Four Aces tattoo on my virtual ass."


JK:

Are you raising funds through NFT sales for your next virtual one?  I'd love to see the NFT mock-up!
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: JLahrman on September 21, 2022, 02:39:40 PM
I have minor issues with things like 54 holes, no cut, no spots for local players.  I have a big problem with LIV's lack of discernible criteria for qualification.  I can turn on a PGA Tour event, and despite a handful of sponsors' exemptions, I know that every player teeing it up earned their spot in the field under the criteria established by the Tour.  You can argue that the Tour should change it's rules, that it allows too many older players in because of life memberships, or other earnings based exemptions.  There's a good argument to be made that a non-competitive Davis Love should not be in PGA Tour fields.  But the fact is that he has qualified under the Tour's rules. Meanwhile, Chase Koepka and Peter Uihlein have had years to prove that they do not belong in top tier competitive golf tournaments.  I don't know anyone getting into PGA Tour events based on who is in their family.  Combine that with small fields, which means much of the field is made up of guys who simply couldn't qualify for the PGA Tour, and, well, I'm not that impressed that Cam Smith and DJ can beat 12-15 good players and a bunch of tomato cans.


This point is a good one and maybe got lost on the bottom of the first page. To get off the ground, I get that LIV had to take who they could. But look at a guy like Chase Koepka. He had one year on the European Tour (2018) where he lost his card. In 2019 he went back to the Challenge Tour but didn't play well. He was unable to qualify for the Korn Ferry Tour in 2020 or 2021. Does anybody think he would be a LIV golfer today if LIV hadn't been trying to lure a certain brother of his? I can barely break 100 right now. But if it turned out that I was a good friend of Cameron Young, could I be playing the LIV Tour and earning OWGR points each event for finishing last?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 21, 2022, 02:44:34 PM
Can we stop pretending that there isn't already an algorithm that determines the best golfers in the world? It would be a tool worth creating in determining how much and who to sponsor.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Steve Lang on September 21, 2022, 03:49:43 PM
Can we stop pretending that there isn't already an algorithm that determines the best golfers in the world? It would be a tool worth creating in determining how much and who to sponsor.


JK you can be sure that any "O" in the acronym for it stands for "Official"
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on September 21, 2022, 04:58:57 PM
The NBA could change to three quarters and no results would change. They’d just play hard earlier.
So you're saying depth and foul trouble don't matter in the NBA?  Interesting.  I coached basketball for a long, long time, though never in the NBA, of course, and I always found the fourth quarter to be a test of those things, among others.


You have to respect that rare trait that distinguishes the difference between winners, maintainers and losers. 12 fewer minutes will not elevate a pretender.


I have absolutely no idea what this gibberish means.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on September 21, 2022, 09:21:34 PM
All that being said it seems the board can say any event they want gets points as the Chevron World Challenge earned points with no cut, and very limited field.
Tiger's event:
The Tour Championship, Tournament of Champions, etc. are all smaller fields, too. But the players earned their way into them.

LIV is, from what many seem to believe, failing on several fronts.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 22, 2022, 01:04:42 AM
I love when people get so intense about a subject they believe capital letters will carry the point. But I digress.

Last night I wondered if the Sagarin Golf Rankings still exist and the answer is yes. (They're on Golfweek's web site.)


The men's pro rankings include LIV Golf (though the boilerplate explaining the methodology hasn't been updated yet; you can tell because tournaments are ranked as well as players and the LIV tournaments are in there).


How it works, from Golfweek: Jeff Sagarin's rating system is based on a mathematical formula that uses a player's won-lost-tied record against other players when they play on the same course on the same day, and the stroke differential between those players, then links all players to one another based on common opponents. The ratings give an indication of who is playing well over the past 52 weeks.
Here are the top 10s in OWGR and Sagarin, as posted Sept. 20:


       OWGR           Sagarin
  1  Scheffler       McIlroy
  2  McIlroy         Rahm
  3  Smith           Cantlay
  4  Cantlay         Smith
  5  Schauffele     Scheffler
  6  Rahm            Shauffele
  7  Thomas        Thomas
  8  Zalatoris       Fitzpatrick
  9  Morikawa      Matsuyama
10  Hovland        Homa


Tournament Rankings (lower number the better) going back this season. No space between tournaments played in the same week:


Fortinet                 70.88
LIV Chicago           70.63


BMW PGA              71.26
Korn Ferry Champ  71.65


LIV Boston             70.66


PGA Tour Champ.   68.74 (top-rated tournament on a list of over 175 across all tours this year)


BMW Ch (Western) 69.30


FedEx St. Jude       69.86


Wyndham              71.05


LIV Bedminster      70.82
Rocket Mortgage    71.05


3M Open               71.77


British Open          70.66


LIV Portland          71.03
John Deere            71.74


U.S. Open             70.66


LIV London           71.40
Canadian Open      71.74


Memorial               70.19


PGA Championship 70.61


The Masters           70.16


To my surprise, LIV's five tournaments so far have had a better ranking than the five PGA Tour tournaments they have gone up against. The LIV tournament ranking has also improved from week to week as more players have been signed.


Make of it what you will.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on September 22, 2022, 03:33:34 PM
Ben,
You are incorrect, and you are welcome to go the OWGR website and read it for yourself.  Neither I nor anybody else has ever asserted that 72 holes with a 36 hole cut is the ONLY way that tournament golf is played, and the only format for which ranking points are awarded.
But if you are claiming that 72/36 is NOT the standard you are just wrong, and if you are claiming that somehow 54/0 is comparable, you are more than wrong.  Sorry.

A.G.
I feel like this point is worth reiterating:

There is a significant amount of "they can't do that because that's not the way it's been done" mentality around the format, which simply isn't true.

This seems to be where you're head is living these days. Especially when reading your reply to Peter's 90 holes question.

My participation in this thread was started on this notion that how things are done today are not the only way they could be done.  While the current structure of the OWGR does not mesh with what LIV has started with, I don't see where either is set in stone, especially since LIV is operating in its infancy and the OWGR very recently changed how it operates.
You could not be more wrong about my position.  I have absolutely NO ties to ANY ranking system, and I would have no problem with the OWGR rules being changed.  But just as with the lawsuit claiming restraint of trade by guys who left for millions of dollars, these guys HAD to know that they were going to a tour that simply does not meet the current criteria for ranking points. 

There are currently 23 tours worldwide that are approved for OWGR points, and all 23 follow the same basic format.  Variations happen, but must be approved by the Technical Committee.  None of the 23 play 54 holes as their basic format.  None of the 23 have a no cut format.  None of the 23 use shotgun starts.  None of the 23 have a situation in which many of the players are apparently NOT playing for "real" prize money, but rather for money that counts against their guarantee until they reach the guarantee amount.
I don't have a problem with changing the way things are done, and I do NOT have a problem with the guys that went to the LIV Tour taking the money and going elsewhere to play their competitive golf. None of this matters to me in the least.

But I DO have a problem with people that ask for special treatment when they have chosen not to comply with rules and procedures that were known in advance.  Take the money and go, and good on you.  But suck it up and take the consequences like big boys and get on with it.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ken Moum on September 22, 2022, 03:45:57 PM

To my surprise, LIV's five tournaments so far have had a better ranking than the five PGA Tour tournaments they have gone up against. The LIV tournament ranking has also improved from week to week as more players have been signed.


Make of it what you will.



I've always been a fan of Sagarin's methodology, especially for amateur golf.


One thing about this list is that adding a player like Smith to LIV really affects the tour's standing. After all, in the last 12 months he beat almost all of the top guys at The Players and The Open.


Moving forward the defectors will have fewer and fewer chances to play against big, deep fields. Regardless of what else occurs,  they're contracted to play in 14 events next year with 48-player fields made up of a significant number of players who haven't done much in the last 52 weeks.


Jeff's system pays dividends for beating player A who has also beaten players B, D, R, T and Y.


Unless I completely misunderstand, playing mostly against the same 47 other guys isn't a path to a high rank.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: James Reader on September 22, 2022, 03:52:05 PM
Isn’t a fundamental issue with LIV that players are getting access to limited field, no cut events for reasons other than golfing merit - and may continue to do so for years even if they play terribly? 


If OWGR points were to be available, a contracted player could come last by 10 shots every week for a couple of years and still earn considerably more points, and a higher ranking, than someone who was beating half the field every week on the PGA or European Tours.


The ranking system is designed for a golfing landscape where there is movement between the tours on the basis of merit and where places on those limited field events that do attract points are earned by the quality of a golfer’s recent play.  LIV would have to fundamentally change its model (and, it would seem, breach a number of its players’ contracts) to fit into that world.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: JLahrman on September 22, 2022, 04:30:30 PM
Isn’t a fundamental issue with LIV that players are getting access to limited field, no cut events for reasons other than golfing merit - and may continue to do so for years even if they play terribly? 

If OWGR points were to be available, a contracted player could come last by 10 shots every week for a couple of years and still earn considerably more points, and a higher ranking, than someone who was beating half the field every week on the PGA or European Tours.


That is a feasible scenario. And that player could be me. There is no way I could ever qualify for the PGA Tour. But LIV could invite me. I'd sign for a lot cheaper than most of these guys. There's nothing stopping Greg Norman from calling me up, I could be teeing it up in the next LIV event.


I once attended a Super Bowl party with Jeff Sagarin. It was the Patriots-Rams SB during Brady's rookie year. When the clock was winding down and the score was tied I noted that no Super Bowl had ever gone to overtime. Jeff Sagarin was pretty sure one had gone to OT. Unfortunately I had to correct him. The broadcast eventually confirmed that I was right. As far as claims to fame go it's not much, but it's something.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 22, 2022, 04:45:09 PM
i think in the aggregate LIV golf suffers from a case of too many Bs, and the OWGR has sniffed it out

Bogus Tour Backing
Bogus Business Plan
Bogus Team Structures
Bogus Strength of field
Bogus Qualifying System & Signing structure
Bogus Tourney setups with 54 hole, no cut, shotgun starts
Bogus Incentive to perform with prize money counting against signing bonuses
Bogus Tournament coverage
Bogus Lawsuits
Bogus Premises that other Tours must accept them with open arms


P.S.  I would use Wrestling as an analogy.  There are plenty of legitimate forms to watch, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, etc in various competitions at the high school, college, and Olympic levels.

But if you wanna watch "Wrastlin" then turn on WWE ...and no doubt those guys certainly get paid much better to boot.

LIV is effectively the WWE of golf.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Wagner on September 22, 2022, 06:30:46 PM
i think in the aggregate LIV golf suffers from a case of too many Bs, and the OWGR has sniffed it out

Bogus Tour Backing
Bogus Business Plan
Bogus Team Structures
Bogus Strength of field
Bogus Qualifying System & Signing structure
Bogus Tourney setups with 54 hole, no cut, shotgun starts
Bogus Incentive to perform with prize money counting against signing bonuses
Bogus Tournament coverage
Bogus Lawsuits
Bogus Premises that other Tours must accept them with open arms


P.S.  I would use Wrestling as an analogy.  There are plenty of legitimate forms to watch, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, etc in various competitions at the high school, college, and Olympic levels.

But if you wanna watch "Wrastlin" then turn on WWE ...and no doubt those guys certainly get paid much better to boot.

LIV is effectively the WWE of golf.


Which event did you go to?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on October 06, 2022, 06:36:22 AM
Has anyone in this thread actually seen the criteria or is everyone just parroting what their preferred media source is saying?


Someone posted a list to twitter yesterday.  I can't vouch for its veracity or exclusivity, but the criteria are all things that have been discussed in media reports:


1. An embrace of inclusion and promoting non-discriminatory practices.


2. Competitions contested over 72 holes, except for developmental tours (like the Abema TV Tour, the Alps Golf Tour, or the Europro Tour, among others) which are permitted to be 54 hole events.


3. An open annual qualifying school held before the start of each season.


4. A field size on average of 75 players over the course of the season.


5. a 36-hole cut, whether playing 54 or 72 holes.


6. A clear opportunity to progress to a full member tour, that is, to one of the six members of the International Federation of PGA Tours.


7. Reasonable access for local and regional players (i.e. Monday qualifiers) at each of its tournaments.



https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/liv-claims-breakaway-rebels-can-earn-world-ranking-points-in-mena-deal (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/liv-claims-breakaway-rebels-can-earn-world-ranking-points-in-mena-deal)

I'm curious to know how an alliance with the Mena Tour will allow LIV Golf players to earn OWGR points, when the format of their tournaments are STILL at odds with the criteria listed above.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on October 06, 2022, 02:10:22 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/liv-claims-breakaway-rebels-can-earn-world-ranking-points-in-mena-deal (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/liv-claims-breakaway-rebels-can-earn-world-ranking-points-in-mena-deal)

I'm curious to know how an alliance with the Mena Tour will allow LIV Golf players to earn OWGR points, when the format of their tournaments are STILL at odds with the criteria listed above.



I'm assuming LIV events will be unofficial events for the MENA tour just like the PGA Tour, DP Tour and I assume other tours have unofficial events that do not meet the OWGR criteria but earn points.


A noted difference is most of the unofficial PGA Tour events are composed of individuals who play on the PGA Tour.  Can't believe many LIV golfers will play in a MENA event.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on October 06, 2022, 09:32:06 PM
How can you get points for an affiliation with a tour that hasn’t had a tournament in 2 and a half years? This just gets better by the minute.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on October 07, 2022, 08:07:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76LpZd-E5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76LpZd-E5A)
I lost interest when the translator had to speak for two minutes straight after that. ;)

It seems somewhat clear that the players were told OWGR points would be there for them pretty soon. Did they believe the Asian Tour stuff was their immediate way in, and now that it seems to be failing, or the Asian Tour isn't playing ball, that this MENA play was going to work?

I also think the likelihood of OWGR points being assigned retroactively are slimmer than they seem to think, though I suppose since they're *points* it would only really affect the LIV player *points*. Doing it after any tournaments that awards player entry based on their ranking (top 50, top 100, whatever) though feels… funny. That affects players outside of LIV.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on October 07, 2022, 10:50:48 AM
How can you get points for an affiliation with a tour that hasn’t had a tournament in 2 and a half years? This just gets better by the minute.


Exactly Rob,

It wreaks of desperation to be leeching on to a Tour like that.  And then to hear high profile players like Phil try to justify it?  Just pathetic....
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: William_G on October 08, 2022, 02:06:09 PM
How can you get points for an affiliation with a tour that hasn’t had a tournament in 2 and a half years? This just gets better by the minute.


Exactly Rob,

It wreaks of desperation to be leeching on to a Tour like that.  And then to hear high profile players like Phil try to justify it?  Just pathetic....


exactly, Greg trying deliver undeliverable goods
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Stewart Abramson on October 10, 2022, 10:46:36 AM
Links to Eamon Lynch's Golfweek article on point.


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/10/08/lynch-liv-golf-news-bryson-dechambeau-owgr/?itm_source=parsely-api&fbclid=IwAR3aEZbiR7wDtjcr2hOpWi2WI6nkVkBm75quO2sTCS2JG8FDergEMRVk3iw (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/10/08/lynch-liv-golf-news-bryson-dechambeau-owgr/?itm_source=parsely-api&fbclid=IwAR3aEZbiR7wDtjcr2hOpWi2WI6nkVkBm75quO2sTCS2JG8FDergEMRVk3iw)


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/10/08/lynch-liv-golf-news-bryson-dechambeau-owgr/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/10/08/lynch-liv-golf-news-bryson-dechambeau-owgr/)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim Leahy on October 11, 2022, 07:38:53 AM
If LIV tour players are given OWGR points then shouldn't the PGA Champions Tour players also earn these points. Biggest complaints against LIV are the same as Champions tour.
54 hole events. Check
Limited season events. Check
Limited fields. Check
LIV limited by contract membership, Champions by age.
Champions really has even more of a claim because they are not paid appearance fees as LIV players are per their contracts.
 :o
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 11, 2022, 08:35:30 AM
So the MENA Tour which hasn't held a tournament for two years and was previously recognised by OWGR has been dropped by OWGR now that they are looking to do a deal with LIV. Is it not about time that we all acknowledged that the OWGR opposition to LIV has nothing to do with limited fields and all that and everything to do with some, if not all, of the members of the OWGR trying to protect their businesses ?


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on October 11, 2022, 11:37:18 AM
So the MENA Tour which hasn't held a tournament for two years and was previously recognised by OWGR has been dropped by OWGR now that they are looking to do a deal with LIV. Is it not about time that we all acknowledged that the OWGR opposition to LIV has nothing to do with limited fields and all that and everything to do with some, if not all, of the members of the OWGR trying to protect their businesses ?


Niall


Why would a tour which hasn't played in over two years get points? Can MENA members, if there are any, play in the LIV events..............Pretty sure the answer is no.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on October 14, 2022, 08:22:20 PM
So the MENA Tour which hasn't held a tournament for two years and was previously recognised by OWGR has been dropped by OWGR now that they are looking to do a deal with LIV. Is it not about time that we all acknowledged that the OWGR opposition to LIV has nothing to do with limited fields and all that and everything to do with some, if not all, of the members of the OWGR trying to protect their businesses ?
:o ???

Really missing a "ha ha ha ha ha ha" emoji here.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on October 15, 2022, 06:55:38 PM
shouldn't the PGA Champions Tour players also earn these points.


If the purpose of the OWGR was to rank order the best players in the world, the Champions tour events should get world rankings points.  Unfortunately, identifying the best players in the world is not the purpose of the OWGR.


This only matters because 4 events (some might also care about WGC events and the Players) use the OWGR as an entry qualifier.  OWGR was used by those events because it claimed to identify the best players in the world, the OWGR clearly doesn't do that now.  I'd be quite happy if some programmer wrote a new program to better attempt to identify the best players in the world and the Open, US Open, Masters and PGA moved to that system.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on October 22, 2022, 04:50:05 AM
shouldn't the PGA Champions Tour players also earn these points.


If the purpose of the OWGR was to rank order the best players in the world, the Champions tour events should get world rankings points.  Unfortunately, identifying the best players in the world is not the purpose of the OWGR.


This only matters because 4 events (some might also care about WGC events and the Players) use the OWGR as an entry qualifier.  OWGR was used by those events because it claimed to identify the best players in the world, the OWGR clearly doesn't do that now.  I'd be quite happy if some programmer wrote a new program to better attempt to identify the best players in the world and the Open, US Open, Masters and PGA moved to that system.

I agree. OWGR is meant to identify the best players. Not the best players which play on a tour which meets their requirements. The OWGR should alter requirements to match the landscape of professional golf. Otherwise it isn't doing its job. In which case, what is the point?

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: ward peyronnin on October 22, 2022, 08:21:48 AM
If the LIV players are among the best players in the world then they have the opportunity to demonstrate that by playing on a QUALIFYING event and proving it.
Them being granted points for a tour that is apples to oranges to the original tour does not no matter what the algorithm
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 22, 2022, 08:28:27 AM
shouldn't the PGA Champions Tour players also earn these points.


If the purpose of the OWGR was to rank order the best players in the world, the Champions tour events should get world rankings points.  Unfortunately, identifying the best players in the world is not the purpose of the OWGR.


This only matters because 4 events (some might also care about WGC events and the Players) use the OWGR as an entry qualifier.  OWGR was used by those events because it claimed to identify the best players in the world, the OWGR clearly doesn't do that now.  I'd be quite happy if some programmer wrote a new program to better attempt to identify the best players in the world and the Open, US Open, Masters and PGA moved to that system.

I agree. OWGR is meant to identify the best players. Not the best players which play on a tour which meets their requirements. The OWGR should alter requirements to match the landscape of professional golf. Otherwise it isn't doing its job. In which case, what is the point?

Ciao


Well, actually the OWGR website says that the ranking system measures “relative performance” on “eligibile golf tours”.   Nowhere do they claim to be identifying the “best” players, and the word “eligible” seems important.  You are advocating that the OWGR change the standards, rather than that the LIV comply with standards that were already long since in place.


Which simply brings us back to the original problem.  Knowing that the LIV format was radically different in multiple respects from “eligible” tours worldwide, players went there, as is/was their right. So live with that choice instead of asking others to then accommodate.  It’s what grown ups do.


It really isn’t very complicated.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on October 22, 2022, 08:38:33 AM
shouldn't the PGA Champions Tour players also earn these points.


If the purpose of the OWGR was to rank order the best players in the world, the Champions tour events should get world rankings points.  Unfortunately, identifying the best players in the world is not the purpose of the OWGR.


This only matters because 4 events (some might also care about WGC events and the Players) use the OWGR as an entry qualifier.  OWGR was used by those events because it claimed to identify the best players in the world, the OWGR clearly doesn't do that now.  I'd be quite happy if some programmer wrote a new program to better attempt to identify the best players in the world and the Open, US Open, Masters and PGA moved to that system.

I agree. OWGR is meant to identify the best players. Not the best players which play on a tour which meets their requirements. The OWGR should alter requirements to match the landscape of professional golf. Otherwise it isn't doing its job. In which case, what is the point?

Ciao


Well, actually the OWGR website says that the ranking system measures “relative performance” on “eligibile golf tours”.   Nowhere do they claim to be identifying the “best” players, and the word “eligible” seems important.  You are advocating that the OWGR change the standards, rather than that the LIV comply with standards that were already long since in place.


Which simply brings us back to the original problem.  Knowing that the LIV format was radically different in multiple respects from “eligible” tours worldwide, players went there, as is/was their right. So live with that choice instead of asking others to then accommodate.  It’s what grown ups do.


It really isn’t very complicated.

Measures relative performance for what reason? There should be no illusions as to why OWGR exists. And if it exists, why not do the job properly?

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 22, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
Well, actually the OWGR website says that the ranking system measures “relative performance” on “eligibile golf tours”.   Nowhere do they claim to be identifying the “best” players, and the word “eligible” seems important.  You are advocating that the OWGR change the standards, rather than that the LIV comply with standards that were already long since in place.


Which simply brings us back to the original problem.  Knowing that the LIV format was radically different in multiple respects from “eligible” tours worldwide, players went there, as is/was their right. So live with that choice instead of asking others to then accommodate.  It’s what grown ups do.


It really isn’t very complicated.


I can't say I have been keeping track of the OWGR over the years but if the wikipedia page on the OWGR is anything to go by, the idea behind it was from the R&A who found that there existing system of deciding qualification for the Open was failing to deal with the problem of players playing on different tours, which ironically is the situation that now exists.


Also to quote the wiki page "the method of calculation of the rankings has changed considerably over the years", which kind of begs the question of why they wouldn't change it again to take into account the LIV Tour if they were still trying to rank the best players ? (the Official World Golf Rankings title is fairly self-explanatory and to suggest that they aren't trying to identify and rank the best golfers is really quite silly)


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on October 22, 2022, 10:43:07 AM
I still like the idea of LIV golf creating its own majors, sounds like a terrific idea!  ;D

"“If the majors decide not to have our players play? I will celebrate. I will create my own majors for my players.’’
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on October 22, 2022, 12:39:44 PM
Knowing that the LIV format was radically different in multiple respects from “eligible” tours worldwide


Clearly this must have been written in jest, right?


I could see, maybe, if LIV events were only conducted in Matchplay, or event Stableford, calling the format radically different. But if the OWGR awards points to stroke play events, 54 hole events, limited field events, no cut events, and invitational events; it’s hard to see how what LIV is doing as truly radical.

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on October 22, 2022, 12:48:33 PM
Its can't be difficult to come up with a formula suitable for LIV. Maybe points earned are worth 25% or whatever percentage of US Tour points. It makes it difficult for LIV guys to make the grade, but not impossible.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 22, 2022, 04:13:52 PM
You guys WANT the OWGR to be a ranking of the “best” players, but that is NOT a claim that the OWGR itself makes.  You could, of course, go directly to the OWGR website to read the mission statement for yourself, which uses the term “relative performance”, and makes no claim about “best”.



Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 22, 2022, 04:20:36 PM
Its can't be difficult to come up with a formula suitable for LIV. Maybe points earned are worth 25% or whatever percentage of US Tour points. It makes it difficult for LIV guys to make the grade, but not impossible.

Ciao


It can’t be difficult for the LIV Tour to come up with a format suitable for receiving ranking points.  72 holes, tee times, a 36 hole cut, ALL players competing for actual prize money instead of some playing for credits against their signing bonuses.


You know; kind of like EVERY pro Tour that gets OWGR points. 


Or you could look at the LIV guys as entitled to special treatment that no other Tour gets.  That would make good sense.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on October 22, 2022, 05:11:45 PM
You are advocating that the OWGR change the standards, rather than that the LIV comply with standards that were already long since in place.


A.G. I'm advocating that the 4 tournaments people really care about use a system that identifies the best players in the world, not the current system that as stated ranks only those players playing on the tours the ranking system deems eligible. 


The USGA, R&A, Masters and PGA shouldn't care where the golfers in their championship play other than the week of their event.  They should want the best players in the field. 

On the second page Tim Cronin mentions the Sagarin Golf Rankings, something like that is what I want the majors to use as a qualifying method.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on October 22, 2022, 05:13:20 PM
Its can't be difficult to come up with a formula suitable for LIV. Maybe points earned are worth 25% or whatever percentage of US Tour points. It makes it difficult for LIV guys to make the grade, but not impossible.

Ciao


It can’t be difficult for the LIV Tour to come up with a format suitable for receiving ranking points.  72 holes, tee times, a 36 hole cut, ALL players competing for actual prize money instead of some playing for credits against their signing bonuses.


You know; kind of like EVERY pro Tour that gets OWGR points. 


Or you could look at the LIV guys as entitled to special treatment that no other Tour gets.  That would make good sense.

A ranking system's job is to identify the best players. That's all that really needs saying. Otherwise there is no point. You could theoretically have loads of top 100 players not labelled as such because of their tour. Sorry, that makes no sense.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 22, 2022, 06:09:16 PM
Its can't be difficult to come up with a formula suitable for LIV. Maybe points earned are worth 25% or whatever percentage of US Tour points. It makes it difficult for LIV guys to make the grade, but not impossible.

Ciao


It can’t be difficult for the LIV Tour to come up with a format suitable for receiving ranking points.  72 holes, tee times, a 36 hole cut, ALL players competing for actual prize money instead of some playing for credits against their signing bonuses.


You know; kind of like EVERY pro Tour that gets OWGR points. 


Or you could look at the LIV guys as entitled to special treatment that no other Tour gets.  That would make good sense.

A ranking system's job is to identify the best players. That's all that really needs saying. Otherwise there is no point. You could theoretically have loads of top 100 players not labelled as such because of their tour. Sorry, that makes no sense.

Ciao


Michael Jordan was almost certainly the “best” basketball player in the world in 1994 and 1995, given that he had been the NBA MVP in 1993 and was again in 1996. 


But in 1994 and most of the 1995 basketball season, Jordan was playing minor league baseball.  (Minor league in a different sport; see what I did there?)  So Jordan didn’t win the MVP, o make the All-Star team, or win any awards,or get to play in the playoffs. Perhaps more to the point, I suspect Jordan knew all that before he left the NBA, and I don’t recall him bitching because he wasn’t getting recognition.


See, even though he was the “best”, his “relative performance” in basketball just wasn’t any good at all.



Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on October 22, 2022, 06:21:11 PM
Its can't be difficult to come up with a formula suitable for LIV. Maybe points earned are worth 25% or whatever percentage of US Tour points. It makes it difficult for LIV guys to make the grade, but not impossible.

Ciao


It can’t be difficult for the LIV Tour to come up with a format suitable for receiving ranking points.  72 holes, tee times, a 36 hole cut, ALL players competing for actual prize money instead of some playing for credits against their signing bonuses.


You know; kind of like EVERY pro Tour that gets OWGR points. 


Or you could look at the LIV guys as entitled to special treatment that no other Tour gets.  That would make good sense.

A ranking system's job is to identify the best players. That's all that really needs saying. Otherwise there is no point. You could theoretically have loads of top 100 players not labelled as such because of their tour. Sorry, that makes no sense.

Ciao


Michael Jordan was almost certainly the “best” basketball player in the world in 1994 and 1995, given that he had been the NBA MVP in 1993 and was again in 1996. 


But in 1994 and most of the 1995 basketball season, Jordan was playing minor league baseball.  (Minor league in a different sport; see what I did there?)  So Jordan didn’t win the MVP, o make the All-Star team, or win any awards,or get to play in the playoffs. Perhaps more to the point, I suspect Jordan knew all that before he left the NBA, and I don’t recall him bitching because he wasn’t getting recognition.


See, even though he was the “best”, his “relative performance” in basketball just wasn’t any good at all.

What are you talking about? LIV golfers are playing golf. I maintain that rankings exist to rank players. To ignore certain players because of their tour discredits that ranking system because it is inherently non inclusive. Anyway, we ain't gonna agree...

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David_Elvins on October 22, 2022, 07:18:08 PM
Sean,


The OWGR works because players qualify to play on tours and qualify to play in events, therefor you can assume that a player who qualifies for a pga tour event and wins it is better than a player who has not qualified for the event.


When a player comes straight out of college and is invited to play on LIV and wins an event, there is no way of determining that he is a better golfer than his college teammate who was not invited to play on the LIV tour.  The OWGR system is based on players qualifying for tours and events on merit.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on October 22, 2022, 07:21:41 PM
Michael Jordan was almost certainly the “best” basketball player in the world in 1994 and 1995, given that he had been the NBA MVP in 1993 and was again in 1996. 


But in 1994 and most of the 1995 basketball season, Jordan was playing minor league baseball.  (Minor league in a different sport; see what I did there?)  So Jordan didn’t win the MVP, o make the All-Star team, or win any awards,or get to play in the playoffs. Perhaps more to the point, I suspect Jordan knew all that before he left the NBA, and I don’t recall him bitching because he wasn’t getting recognition.


See, even though he was the “best”, his “relative performance” in basketball just wasn’t any good at all.


A.G. to continue a bad analogy...Jordan wasn't excluded from playing in the 1996 olympics because he missed out on earning ranking points that were only available to players in the NBA or their approved leagues, he chose not to play.  If Jordan was excluded from playing on the 1996 team because USA basketball selected players based on some official world basketball ranking based on how the players played in the NBA over the previous 2 years I'd have thought that was wrong.


Similarly, if Cam Smith isn't able to play in the 2024 Olympics because he won't have many points in the Olympic Golf Ranking (which uses points from the last two years in the OWGR), I think that's wrong.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 22, 2022, 08:03:18 PM
You know what just continually shocks me about this particular debate in this particular place? 


That you guys NEVER focus on the difference that a shotgun start makes compared to playing the course the way it was freaking designed to be played.  And this from guys who claim to be all about the subject.


I play a lot of senior tournaments, and more often than not, there are shotgun starts.  If you don’t think it matters a LOT, or that it fundamentally changes the golf course, you just aren’t paying attention. I’ve written this before, but that to me is as big a deal as the 54 hole no cut aspects of LIV.  Maybe bigger.


Silly discussion, which is partly my fault for staying in the echo chamber. 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on October 22, 2022, 09:40:16 PM
When a player comes straight out of college and is invited to play on LIV and wins an event, there is no way of determining that he is a better golfer than his college teammate who was not invited to play on the LIV tour.  The OWGR system is based on players qualifying for tours and events on merit.
What about when player receive a sponsor's exemption into a PGA Tour event and wins?

You know what just continually shocks me about this particular debate in this particular place? 

That you guys NEVER focus on the difference that a shotgun start makes compared to playing the course the way it was freaking designed to be played.  And this from guys who claim to be all about the subject.

If you don’t think it matters a LOT, or that it fundamentally changes the golf course, you just aren’t paying attention. I’ve written this before, but that to me is as big a deal as the 54 hole no cut aspects of LIV.  Maybe bigger.
Can you quantify how much of a difference there is between a shotgun start and playing split tees with half the field going off of 10, or having a morning and afternoon wave with varying weather? At least with a shotgun, the weather will impact the field equally.
playing the course the way it was freaking designed to be played.
Right, because at no time has a PGA Tour sanctioned event ever flipped the 9's, or changed the hole sequence, or deviated from the original design in any way.

I guess in your eyes the only Masters that counts is the first one, as that was the only Masters played the way it was freaking designed to be played?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on October 22, 2022, 10:01:30 PM
A bunch of mostly has beens playing a few guys who are competitive on the world stage. How many points should you get for beating Chase Keopka and Peter Ulien?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Phil Young on October 23, 2022, 12:21:52 AM

Sean, you stated: "The OWGR works because players qualify to play on tours and qualify to play in events, therefor you can assume that a player who qualifies for a pga tour event and wins it is better than a player who has not qualified for the event."

Let's go back to the 1920s and consider who was considered among the top 3 players in the world if not actually the best because he won far more majors than anyone else...Bobby Jones. By your logic, Bobby Jones could not have been better than any professional because he didn't qualify to play in the PGA Championship and never did. The reason? He wasn't a professional. Yet in several "Top Ten" list he was considered to be either the best or 2nd best in the world who ever played. (e.g.- "TIME'S TOP TEN," Pacific Coast Golfer, December 1939.)

The problem with any ranking system is that it depends solely on what its creator believes are the most important accomplishments on which to base its results. This thread seems to prove that there isn't a way to create a true World Golf Ranking system that all will accept.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Dave Doxey on October 23, 2022, 08:20:03 AM
You are advocating that the OWGR change the standards, rather than that the LIV comply with standards that were already long since in place.


A.G. I'm advocating that the 4 tournaments people really care about use a system that identifies the best players in the world, not the current system that as stated ranks only those players playing on the tours the ranking system deems eligible. 


The USGA, R&A, Masters and PGA shouldn't care where the golfers in their championship play other than the week of their event.  They should want the best players in the field. 

On the second page Tim Cronin mentions the Sagarin Golf Rankings, something like that is what I want the majors to use as a qualifying method.



Well said!  The majors should invite the best players.  If LIV consists of "has beens" as some have said, the PGA Tour has nothing to fear.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 23, 2022, 09:42:51 AM
When a player comes straight out of college and is invited to play on LIV and wins an event, there is no way of determining that he is a better golfer than his college teammate who was not invited to play on the LIV tour.  The OWGR system is based on players qualifying for tours and events on merit.
What about when player receive a sponsor's exemption into a PGA Tour event and wins?

You know what just continually shocks me about this particular debate in this particular place? 

That you guys NEVER focus on the difference that a shotgun start makes compared to playing the course the way it was freaking designed to be played.  And this from guys who claim to be all about the subject.

If you don’t think it matters a LOT, or that it fundamentally changes the golf course, you just aren’t paying attention. I’ve written this before, but that to me is as big a deal as the 54 hole no cut aspects of LIV.  Maybe bigger.
Can you quantify how much of a difference there is between a shotgun start and playing split tees with half the field going off of 10, or having a morning and afternoon wave with varying weather? At least with a shotgun, the weather will impact the field equally.
playing the course the way it was freaking designed to be played.
Right, because at no time has a PGA Tour sanctioned event ever flipped the 9's, or changed the hole sequence, or deviated from the original design in any way.

I guess in your eyes the only Masters that counts is the first one, as that was the only Masters played the way it was freaking designed to be played?
Ben, I feel certain that if you go and sit in a quiet place and just think a bit, you'll see the difference between course changes made over time (in the case of The Masters, nearly 90 years) vs a shotgun start.  I know you can do it, because I know you can eventually understand the difference in playing holes in the same sequence IN A GIVEN YEAR vs. random hole assignments and hole order.  The split tee thing is a complete red herring, because when that device is used for a LARGE field, each player plays the course in the same order as everyone else one time.

But you're right about this: I can't quantify the difference between a shotgun start, which NO other pro tour uses, vs split tee starts, which ALL other pro tours use at times BEFORE the cut that the LIV tour doesn't have.  Not only can I not quantify the difference, nobody else can either, including the OWGR.  So thanks for helping me make my point; you are a kind man!
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on October 23, 2022, 08:31:08 PM
You are advocating that the OWGR change the standards, rather than that the LIV comply with standards that were already long since in place.


A.G. I'm advocating that the 4 tournaments people really care about use a system that identifies the best players in the world, not the current system that as stated ranks only those players playing on the tours the ranking system deems eligible. 


The USGA, R&A, Masters and PGA shouldn't care where the golfers in their championship play other than the week of their event.  They should want the best players in the field. 

On the second page Tim Cronin mentions the Sagarin Golf Rankings, something like that is what I want the majors to use as a qualifying method.



Well said!  The majors should invite the best players.  If LIV consists of "has beens" as some have said, the PGA Tour has nothing to fear.


PGA Tour has no fear of the current LIV players. If they fear anything it’s the endless stream of money LIV has to buy players currently on the PGA And DP World tours.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on October 24, 2022, 02:29:21 PM


AG,

It seems pretty clear to me that you are unaware that the European Tour has multiple times used a Shotgun start during an event.

It also seems preposterous that you believe it would be impossible to measure the impact a shotgun start could have on tournament scoring.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on October 24, 2022, 10:36:37 PM
As a has been


Listening to that often used term doesn’t make the argument against look great
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 25, 2022, 08:42:43 AM


AG,

It seems pretty clear to me that you are unaware that the European Tour has multiple times used a Shotgun start during an event.

It also seems preposterous that you believe it would be impossible to measure the impact a shotgun start could have on tournament scoring.


Ben, once again I’m sure that if you go and sit quietly and just think a bit, you’ll be able to figure out the difference between the occasional need for a shotgun start to get a tournament completed due to weather issues vs a shotgun start EVERY ROUND OF EVERY TOURNAMENT.  You truly seem to love the logical fallacy of going from the instance to the generalization, and it makes it really hard to discuss anything.


As to a “formula” for ranking points for shotguns, this seems a perfect example of what happens when you continually ask the wrong question.  The easiest path to ranking points for LIV isn’t for me or you or the OWGR board to concoct a new formula for 54 hole no-cut shotgun starts with different prize money status for different players. 


The easiest path to ranking points is for the LIV Tour to just conduct their tournaments the way every other pro tour that DOES receive ranking points plays the game, rather than insisting that they are somehow entitled to special treatment.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David_Tepper on October 25, 2022, 10:09:39 AM
Good, relatively even-handed, podcast on the current situation with Lawrence Donegan, Jamie Corrigan & Geoff Shackelford here:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mckellar-gold-podcast-60-jamie-corrigan-and-geoff/id1483786770?i=1000581951022
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Jim_Coleman on October 25, 2022, 11:07:45 AM
    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on October 25, 2022, 01:45:17 PM
    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.


That is 100% what Harold Varner articulated in his own humble way.
He knew the issues when he signed the deal and has nothing but positive things to say.


I dont think anyone begrudges any of the "LIVers" who sought the fast payday.
It's just so ridiculous that many of them want to double-dip.


It's like they all worked their way up in a company to the top then a rich competitor offered them a guarantee and more $$ to come work for them then they are now all somewhat butt-hurt that they are not invited to their old company's 1) annual meeting 2) holiday parties 3) summer retreat and 4) top-performer reward trip.


Worse...their new CEO is an aggressive and sharp-elbowed ex-player with a chip on his shoulder instead of a smooth, consensus-building executive that seeks real partnerships.


Someone should just lay it on the line: If 54 hole events were the norm "back in the day", then Greg Norman would have won 7 majors.


Ooops...that 4th round is indeed meaningful.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 25, 2022, 02:41:59 PM
    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.


That is 100% what Harold Varner articulated in his own humble way.
He knew the issues when he signed the deal and has nothing but positive things to say.


I dont think anyone begrudges any of the "LIVers" who sought the fast payday.
It's just so ridiculous that many of them want to double-dip.



So is it also ridiculous that guys on the US Tour want to "double-dip" also by playing on other tours and also the majors ?


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on October 25, 2022, 04:28:06 PM
    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.


That is 100% what Harold Varner articulated in his own humble way.
He knew the issues when he signed the deal and has nothing but positive things to say.


I dont think anyone begrudges any of the "LIVers" who sought the fast payday.
It's just so ridiculous that many of them want to double-dip.



So is it also ridiculous that guys on the US Tour want to "double-dip" also by playing on other tours and also the majors ?


Niall


Niall, the "correct" question here is: are they violating their CONTRACTS by playing where they see fit when they double-dip?


The LIVers knew they had all signed contracts and knew that when they went to LIV, there would be "consequences". HV3 knows that and articulates it wonderfully.


The others? I think many of them were told by their agents and the LIV guys that it would all work out (when they had the LIV pen in their hands.)


The LIVers seem to think that the contractual obligations they have are at their own discretion somehow regardless of with whom it is memorialized.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on October 25, 2022, 05:06:00 PM
It was announced today that LIV golfers may also use range funders during the events.


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/10/25/liv-golf-news-rangefinders-team-championship-trump-national-doral/


Probably not going to help their case with the OWGR.... ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 25, 2022, 08:09:27 PM
Ian


You're sidestepping the point; why are LIV golfers the only ones "double-dipping" when seeking to playing on another tour or gain points to gain entry to the majors ?


Niall 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on October 25, 2022, 08:43:56 PM
    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.


I don’t know this, but especially for the guys who have already EARNED their exemptions into major(s), it would be hard to believe the top 4 events in professional golf would change their policies to exclude them.


The guys NOT exempt would already know they have to qualify anyway.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on October 25, 2022, 08:53:14 PM
Guess I was “double dipping” when as a pga tour member I earned an exemption for the ‘95 Open with my play in Australia as a member of that tour.


By the way, when I asked for a release to defend the event I won the year before in Australia , the pga tour would not give me a release due to conflict with the LA Open, which I didnt get in the previous year, and didn’t even respond to requests for sponsor exemption consideration when I reached out (multiple times in different ways [letter/fax/call])


Players often played their home tours and racked up owgr points trying to get high enough for exemptions.


I have voiced my bias previously, but to explain, there is a LOT that the pha tour has done to allow a competitor an opening.


And again, it’s too bad what is going on, but I can see a lot of it from many angles.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on October 25, 2022, 09:17:09 PM
    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.


That is 100% what Harold Varner articulated in his own humble way.
He knew the issues when he signed the deal and has nothing but positive things to say.


I dont think anyone begrudges any of the "LIVers" who sought the fast payday.
It's just so ridiculous that many of them want to double-dip.


It's like they all worked their way up in a company to the top then a rich competitor offered them a guarantee and more $$ to come work for them then they are now all somewhat butt-hurt that they are not invited to their old company's 1) annual meeting 2) holiday parties 3) summer retreat and 4) top-performer reward trip.


Worse...their new CEO is an aggressive and sharp-elbowed ex-player with a chip on his shoulder instead of a smooth, consensus-building executive that seeks real partnerships.


Someone should just lay it on the line: If 54 hole events were the norm "back in the day", then Greg Norman would have won 7 majors.


Ooops...that 4th round is indeed meaningful.


The most prolific choker in the history of the game and I was a big fan. The 6 shot blown lead at the masters was hard to watch.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on October 25, 2022, 09:19:48 PM
Guess I was “double dipping” when as a pga tour member I earned an exemption for the ‘95 Open with my play in Australia as a member of that tour.


By the way, when I asked for a release to defend the event I won the year before in Australia , the pga tour would not give me a release due to conflict with the LA Open, which I didnt get in the previous year, and didn’t even respond to requests for sponsor exemption consideration when I reached out (multiple times in different ways [letter/fax/call])

Have rules changed Pat or are they still the same? Asking because I don’t know. Not being a wise guy.

Players often played their home tours and racked up owgr points trying to get high enough for exemptions.


I have voiced my bias previously, but to explain, there is a LOT that the pha tour has done to allow a competitor an opening.


And again, it’s too bad what is going on, but I can see a lot of it from many angles.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on October 25, 2022, 11:56:19 PM
Guess I was “double dipping” when as a pga tour member I earned an exemption for the ‘95 Open with my play in Australia as a member of that tour.


By the way, when I asked for a release to defend the event I won the year before in Australia , the pga tour would not give me a release due to conflict with the LA Open, which I didnt get in the previous year, and didn’t even respond to requests for sponsor exemption consideration when I reached out (multiple times in different ways [letter/fax/call])

Have rules changed Pat or are they still the same? Asking because I don’t know. Not being a wise guy.

Players often played their home tours and racked up owgr points trying to get high enough for exemptions.


I have voiced my bias previously, but to explain, there is a LOT that the pha tour has done to allow a competitor an opening.


And again, it’s too bad what is going on, but I can see a lot of it from many angles.


Rob. I really don’t know the current rules.
As a tour member, you need a release for all but your “home” tour events.


Historically you could get three releases fairly easy IF you committed to playing the event you played “against” in the next (x) years.


 But, it has been awhile since I had to deal with
It.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Bruce Katona on October 27, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
Unlike Pat Burke, I am a "never was" versus a "has been".


I'm a very good landscape architect & land/urban planner; neither a has been or never was.
Am I a top 1,000 in the world in either profession - which is the skill level some like Pat Burke has to play for real money on the professional golf tour - probably not.


Would I enjoy having access to that skill set for landscape architecture/planning or golf to see how the top 0.1% do things - yep - in a New York Minute.


it's way easier in life to be successful and financially very well off in the business world than in professional sports of any time - many more opportunities to succeed in the business world.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Craig Sweet on October 27, 2022, 09:07:24 PM
From today's Guardian:


"Analysis of this weekend’s format – entirely based on teams – can trigger a sore head. LIV is not making golf simple again. Friday sees teams seeded from five to 12 – the top four have received a bye – compete in both individual and foursome matches. The higher ranked teams selected their opposition. With teams one to four joining Friday’s winners on Saturday, four groups will progress to the “Team Championship”. Day three is of stroke play, with the lowest aggregate score marking the overall winners. For their troubles, a share of $16m before LIV enters cold storage for the remainder  2022."
[/size][/color]
[/size]And they want ranking points?  Its a carnival not a golf tour.[/color]
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on October 28, 2022, 06:33:55 PM
From today's Guardian:

"Analysis of this weekend’s format – entirely based on teams – can trigger a sore head. LIV is not making golf simple again. Friday sees teams seeded from five to 12 – the top four have received a bye – compete in both individual and foursome matches. The higher ranked teams selected their opposition. With teams one to four joining Friday’s winners on Saturday, four groups will progress to the “Team Championship”. Day three is of stroke play, with the lowest aggregate score marking the overall winners. For their troubles, a share of $16m before LIV enters cold storage for the remainder  2022."

And they want ranking points?  Its a carnival not a golf tour.
Bigger text.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on October 29, 2022, 06:11:00 PM
Something new?
What is LIV Golf’s future? They shared plans for it Saturday (https://link.golf.com/click/29534634.463179/aHR0cHM6Ly9nb2xmLmNvbS9uZXdzL2xpdi1nb2xmcy1mdXR1cmUtYnVzaW5lc3MtcGxhbi8_dXRtX2NhbXBhaWduPWZvcmVjYXN0JnV0bV9zb3VyY2U9Z29sZi5jb20mdXRtX21lZGl1bT1lbWFpbCZ1dG1fY29udGVudD0lN0JkYXRlJTI4JnVzZXJfZW1haWw9NGFjZjVkNGIxYmZkNjU3YmRkNTQxNWEwN2I3NjQxODJlMmM5ZTFmMzU2MTMxYTA5Y2U3ZGVmNzMxYzdkYzAyNw/5b3546942ddf9c023879fd21C352f5342)
LIV Golf executives shared their plans for 2023 and beyond in a meeting with media Saturday. Here's what the business plan entails.


Read more:

https://golf.com/news/liv-golfs-future-business-plan (https://golf.com/news/liv-golfs-future-business-plan)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on October 29, 2022, 06:25:47 PM
Unlike Pat Burke, I am a "never was" versus a "has been".


I'm a very good landscape architect & land/urban planner; neither a has been or never was.
Am I a top 1,000 in the world in either profession - which is the skill level some like Pat Burke has to play for real money on the professional golf tour - probably not.


Would I enjoy having access to that skill set for landscape architecture/planning or golf to see how the top 0.1% do things - yep - in a New York Minute.


it's way easier in life to be successful and financially very well off in the business world than in professional sports of any time - many more opportunities to succeed in the business world.


I was probably closer to a never was than a has been in fairness :)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David_Tepper on October 30, 2022, 12:47:45 PM
Steve S. -

Thanks for the link to the blog regarding "LIV Golf's future."

I think the notion that there is a market for regular/recurring golf competition based on teams to be rather far-fetched. Yes, the Ryder, Walker, Curtis and Presidents Cups do attract interest and viewers, but those events occur not more than once a year and the teams competing are representing countries and/or regions of the world.

In a sport that is been about golfers competing against each other as individual for almost 150 years, will anyone care who wins when Team Mickelson plays Team Johnson? I will not. ;)

DT 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on October 30, 2022, 08:26:24 PM
Steve S. -

Thanks for the link to the blog regarding "LIV Golf's future."

I think the notion that there is a market for regular/recurring golf competition based on teams to be rather far-fetched. Yes, the Ryder, Walker, Curtis and Presidents Cups do attract interest and viewers, but those events occur not more than once a year and the teams competing are representing countries and/or regions of the world.

In a sport that is been about golfers competing against each other as individual for almost 150 years, will anyone care who wins when Team Mickelson plays Team Johnson? I will not. ;)

DT


Agreed.  How, for instance, has team tennis fared over the years? 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Carl Johnson on October 30, 2022, 08:40:06 PM
A perspective on LIV, if you can open the link I've tried to give you.  https://wapo.st/3fi3MFE
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Jim O’Kane on October 30, 2022, 11:55:54 PM
I enjoyed reading the Shotgun discussion on the previous page. I don't want it re-hashed or brought up again, but I had always thought that as well, like A.G.


Then while reading, I thought if I was involved in something like that, and say we were playing at AGNC, how would I feel about starting on 12 as opposed to 2. Those starts aren't even close to the same. Some guys will have it harder right out of the gate in a shotgun while others will have a little more breathing room.


Just wanted to pipe in because I like that line of thinking, not that I want anyone to jump back on that train and all the back and forth...so please don't for all the other guys who already did.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 31, 2022, 09:51:13 AM
Steve S. -

Thanks for the link to the blog regarding "LIV Golf's future."

I think the notion that there is a market for regular/recurring golf competition based on teams to be rather far-fetched. Yes, the Ryder, Walker, Curtis and Presidents Cups do attract interest and viewers, but those events occur not more than once a year and the teams competing are representing countries and/or regions of the world.

In a sport that is been about golfers competing against each other as individual for almost 150 years, will anyone care who wins when Team Mickelson plays Team Johnson? I will not. ;)

DT


David


We are talking about professional golf as entertainment and as a business. It seems to me counter-intuitive to say on one hand how great the Ryder Cup is commercially and how popular it is with fans while on the other hand dismissing the team concept as something that wouldn't work in golf. Look at other sports where people support teams for a whole host of reasons including geography, team name, colour of the strips or simply because their sporting idol played for a particular team when they grew up, so why wouldn't they buy into a particular Team on the LIV ?


As an aside let me also add that I couldn't name any of the regular events on the PGA Tour, DP World Tour or indeed the LIV Tour in the last year, let alone tell you who won them. Outside of the majors, I'm not really bothered.


Niall


 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Jim_Coleman on October 31, 2022, 10:01:32 AM
   The sports where teams are popular are TEAM SPORTS.  Team tennis is an afterthought.  The Ryder and Presidents Cups are international team competitions, like the Olympics.  There is no professional team track, team gymnastics, team swimming, etc.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David_Tepper on October 31, 2022, 10:22:51 AM
Niall -

The reason the existing team golf competitions generate interest is because of their history and their scarcity. They only happen once a year or once every other year. The teams are representing countries ans/or regions of the world.

It is worth noting that even the Presidents Cup has trouble gaining traction given its short history and the notion that, to some extent, it is perceived as a contrived event.

Given the long history of golf as an individual competition, I think the road to create a golf league with teams that would attract fan & viewer interest will prove to be endless.


World Team Tennis is a good example of the difficulties of transferring an individual sport into a team/league competition.


DT
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 31, 2022, 10:26:20 AM
Jim


Both tennis and golf have had Team events going back to the days before professionalism took off. You had university teams, college teams, club teams and also teams representing countries. You still do. Maybe the reason why you don't get it in the professional game beyond biannual events such as the Ryder Cup has been to do with the way that the professional game was structured. That has now changed with the advent of LIV.


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Jeff Schley on October 31, 2022, 10:38:56 AM
   The sports where teams are popular are TEAM SPORTS.  Team tennis is an afterthought.  The Ryder and Presidents Cups are international team competitions, like the Olympics.  There is no professional team track, team gymnastics, team swimming, etc.
I'll add one sport to the Olympics list which is inherently individual, but we do care about the team results. That is gymnastics. Although we are talking patriotism and Kerry Strug vault on a twisted ankle, knowing it will be 4 more years until we see it again.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 31, 2022, 10:49:09 AM
David


See my response to Jim. I think LIV will be a game changer now that their players are on a contract/retainer. Hard to organise recurring team events when players don't have contracts.


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David_Tepper on October 31, 2022, 11:12:09 AM
Niall -

Yes, there are existing team/league competitions in (amateur) golf. They occur where there are already existing affiliations: students at a college, members at a golf club, residents of a county, etc. For the most part, the only people who care about the results of those competitions are the participants themselves or people affiliated in some way to the participating group.

Starting a professional league from scratch where there are no prior affiliations among the pool of players or the fans is a dubious task. About the only way I can think of that might work is to have teams representing the various brands of golf clubs. A competition of Team Titleist vs. Team Taylormade or Team Ping vs. Team Mizuno might attract some interest. That seems to be how the Formula One competition works. But a league of Team Mickleson vs. Team Johnson will be a snoozer. 


DT


   
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 31, 2022, 11:21:07 AM
Niall -

Yes, there are existing team/league competitions in (amateur) golf. They occur where there are already existing affiliations: students at a college, members at a golf club, residents of a county, etc. For the most part, the only people who care about the results of those competitions are the participants themselves or people affiliated in some way to the participating group. Agreed. It's about the connection and creating that connection. What happens in US team sports when someone buys a franchise, renames it and moves it to another town ? I suspect that initially it takes a bit of a hit in terms of support as its previous fanbase drifts away but in due course or even early course a new fanbase takes its place.

Starting a professional league from scratch where there are no prior affiliations among the pool of players or the fans is a dubious task. No but the fans already know the players and have their preferences.


About the only way I can think of that might work is to have teams representing the various brands of golf clubs. A competition of Team Titleist vs. Team Taylormade or Team Ping vs. Team Mizuno might attract some interest. That seems to be how the Formula One competition works. But a league of Team Mickleson vs. Team Johnson will be a snoozer. I doubt there's enough golf brands to make that a possibility. Besides I'm sure they will be looking widen the scope of sponsors.


DT


   
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on October 31, 2022, 11:23:12 AM
Well at least some things haven't changed, like FIGJAM's delusions.  ;D

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/phil-mickelson-makes-bold-prediction-for-liv-golf-in-2023-in-big-warning-to-pga-tour/ar-AA13y6ZE?cvid=343c7635d7234da0b87358d87e953022 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/phil-mickelson-makes-bold-prediction-for-liv-golf-in-2023-in-big-warning-to-pga-tour/ar-AA13y6ZE?cvid=343c7635d7234da0b87358d87e953022)


P.S.  Totally agreed on the completely artificial construct of trying to make team sports out of individual ones.  Its fine for flag waving for Olympics and Ryder Cup...but other than that, no one cares.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on October 31, 2022, 11:28:16 AM
Formula 1 has had team racing for years.
Do you know what team wins every week or do you only know what individual crosses the finishing line first?


The ONLY team victory I have EVER been aware of in motor sports is the 1967 LeMans race only becuase I loved the movie "Ford vs Ferrari"...;-)


Team golf is a sport concept that seeks a market.
It may have worked, but is doomed to failure - not becuase of the concept necessarily - but because of the people and entities behind it.


Greg Norman carries his personal vendetta against the PGA tour on his sleeve just like Trump did with the USFL.
He opens his mouth and bile and resentment oozes forth.


The Saudis are, in one moment, seeking to "grow the game of golf" globally, while in the next moment raising oil prices (by cutting supply) and establishing closer alliances with nations that are hostile to the US and Europe. (Iran and Russia)


Not really solid fundamentals to have a sustainable disruptive business model.


The LIV Tour is basically "Trumpism for Golf".


I will use a quote from a Canadian sociologist when discribing the separatist movement in Quebec in the 1970's and I will substitute the "FLQ" with the "LIV Tour":


"The (LIV Tour) is a like a mail-order bra. While it is designed to lift and separate, it only draws attention to the cleavage."
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 31, 2022, 11:28:25 AM
Kalen


You certainly cared enough to post on the team results on the recent Maidstone thread  ;)


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on October 31, 2022, 11:33:13 AM
Kalen

You certainly cared enough to post on the team results on the recent Maidstone thread  ;)

Niall


Damn it Niall, you got me!  ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on October 31, 2022, 11:48:57 AM
Formula 1 has had team racing for years.
Do you know what team wins every week or do you only know what individual crosses the finishing line first?


The ONLY team victory I have EVER been aware of in motor sports is the 1967 LeMans race only becuase I loved the movie "Ford vs Ferrari"...;-)



Ian


Apologies for being a smartarse but the film was called "Le Mans '66" over here for a very good reason !


I do take your point though but then I'm not much of a petrol head although those that are know very well who drives for what team and what difference that makes. The other thing is that there are only two drivers for each team and usually one is the designated no. 1 and the second driver more or less is a back-up therefore the top driver pretty well is the team.


That said, I tend to think that perhaps football (the real football) is a better example. Does everyone know who Messi is or Ronaldo ? You bet they do, but they also have their own team that they support, often for reasons that can be a bit spurious but once you support a team.......


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on October 31, 2022, 11:51:34 AM
That said, I tend to think that perhaps football (the real football) is a better example. Does everyone know who Messi is or Ronaldo ? You bet they do, but they also have their own team that they support, often for reasons that can be a bit spurious but once you support a team.......
🤦🏼‍♂️
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Steve Lang on October 31, 2022, 12:08:33 PM

"The (LIV Tour) is a like a mail-order bra. While it is designed to lift and separate, it only draws attention to the cleavage."


then VIVA LES TROIS TETONS!


Doesn't F1 racing have a major ARAMCO sponsorship deal?  And what ever happened to Colin Chapman's Team Lotus, used to love watching Jimmy Clark tool around and outsmart others?  Didn't they just get to the point of not producing any success on the F1 circuit, and fade away??


It seems like the high school and college team golfers will have more interest in LIV stuff, more relatable to their direct experience...
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David_Tepper on October 31, 2022, 12:12:54 PM
Niall -

Yes, pro sports teams in the U.S. relocate every once in a while. In addition, the pro leagues add one or two new team franchises to their leagues maybe once every 10 or 20 years. And yes, it can take a while for the relocated or new teams to gain a sizable fan base.

But all this takes place in leagues of team sports that have existed for 50 to 100 or more years, where there are already 10 to 30 teams operating with a history of financial success, an established fan base and ongoing media exposure.

DT

p.s. Even though there are college golf teams competing in the U.S., strokeplay tournaments constitute the vast majority of the competition. As far as I know, there is only one event (the NCAA team championship) where a select number of teams compete in a head-to-head, matchplay format. 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on October 31, 2022, 12:18:13 PM
It seems like the high school and college team golfers will have more interest in LIV stuff, more relatable to their direct experience...
IF high school and college golfers have more interest, it's much more likely because it's on YouTube and because they've never really been "traditional TV watchers" like older golf watchers. My college team players couldn't care less about any pro golf outside of liking maybe Jordan Spieth or Rory or something.

If you're comparing team golf to other sports, TEAM sports, just stop. They're not the same.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 03, 2022, 03:00:05 PM
Somewhat related....

As much as I'm not a fan of Bubba, he does make a valid point here.  The lines are certainly grey...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-i-was-paid-to-play-in-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13FV1s?cvid=b32e875dcb5e42df900b7c8338dc2e9d (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-i-was-paid-to-play-in-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13FV1s?cvid=b32e875dcb5e42df900b7c8338dc2e9d)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on November 03, 2022, 05:09:46 PM
Th sponsors of the whole LIV thing have given me pause from the get-go.


The Saudis are questionable allies with possible volatility there going forward. One day, they may not be allies. That should be a horrendous red flag for anyone.


It's a toxic convergence of Greg Norman's 30 year vendetta against the PGA Tour and an oil-rich nation investing its profits reaped from the backs of the people it seeks to attract.


If Tom Watson tried to do the same thing and had Blackstone as well as other marquee investors, then maybe it has sustainability.
But, as the geo-political climate shifts, so may the fortunes of this LIV experiment.


And if shit goes sideways with the Saudis, if you're affiliated with LIV, I dont think you can rinse that kind of stink off  no matter the size of your wallet.

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Craig Sweet on November 03, 2022, 08:30:05 PM
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 03, 2022, 09:09:54 PM
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.


Bubba knows that…..
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 03, 2022, 11:38:55 PM
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 04, 2022, 03:41:17 AM
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.

For sure. People fail to realize that nobody in the US is free from moral judgement.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 04, 2022, 08:44:51 AM
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.

For sure. People fail to realize that nobody in the US is free from moral judgement.

Ciao


Europe is different?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 04, 2022, 11:18:03 AM
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 04, 2022, 11:59:51 AM
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.


Kalen,
If have a Buick logo on your bag. Buick is going to expect you to play in the Buick open. They are probably also going to expect you to mingle with their guests. You get paid to do that. That is not the same as an appearance fee.


Bubba IMO is trying to mislead, which is why Kevin Kisner called him out. Bubba likes to paint a picture of himself which doesn't go along with his actions. We've seen it his entire career.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on November 04, 2022, 12:04:56 PM
I guess what (also) kills me is that the LIV squad basically expects that the incumbent "golf world" will simply bend to their will because the Saudis have a a trillion dollars and they bribed some top talent to come over.


If their events resembled the tours approved under the OWGR, then there would NOT be an issue with points.
But, even on this point, the LIVers expect the world to change for them.


- 54 holes instead of 72 (Of course Norman loves this as he is one of the worst 4th round closers in golf history.)
- Shot gun start with no cut and no ability for others to qualify.
-  field of 48 instead of 150+
- Team format that may alter player strategies.
- Use of distance measuring devices


BUT, if they sign Cantlay and Shauffele, and even Rickie, then their league will have grown, but their case against points will stay the same.


It will still be complaining, but LOUDER... ;D ;D
Title: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 04, 2022, 12:42:49 PM
Is it possible to be a fan of both the PGA and LIV? I consider myself a fan of both, as each brings something unique and different to the professional game and sport, OWGR points aside. I am also excited to see what Tiger and Rory have cooked up for their arena golf venture and how that will be structured. There haven't been much details or talk of it since it was first announced, but from all accounts they are moving forward with it and I believe have LeBron James on board as an investor.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 04, 2022, 01:02:58 PM
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.

For sure. People fail to realize that nobody in the US is free from moral judgement.

Ciao

Europe is different?

It's certainly very similar in the UK. It seems to be a that the more powerful a country the more hypocritical its citizens will be about dealing with despicable governments who can provide desirable commodities or services.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 04, 2022, 02:53:04 PM
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.

Kalen,
If have a Buick logo on your bag. Buick is going to expect you to play in the Buick open. They are probably also going to expect you to mingle with their guests. You get paid to do that. That is not the same as an appearance fee.

Bubba IMO is trying to mislead, which is why Kevin Kisner called him out. Bubba likes to paint a picture of himself which doesn't go along with his actions. We've seen it his entire career.

Rob,

100% agreed with that scenario.

But what if Bubba has a smaller sponsor, which isn't the headline Tour event sponsor.  And they're having a corporate retreat that aligns with a different 2nd tier tourney that Bubba had no intention of playing otherwise.

This sponsor pays him extra to come out and participate in a few meet and greets and since he's already there, enters the tourney (which at that point is an almost explicit expectation anyways).  He is effectively being paid to show up and play that tournament, even if its not the only thing, and that's what I believe he was referencing with this statement: ""I miss the cut, I still make money. I make the cut, I make extra money."

And don't get me wrong, I have zero issue with this arrangement, but technically it violates the spirit of the PGA Rule of no appearance fees.

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on November 04, 2022, 03:26:15 PM
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.

Kalen,
If have a Buick logo on your bag. Buick is going to expect you to play in the Buick open. They are probably also going to expect you to mingle with their guests. You get paid to do that. That is not the same as an appearance fee.

Bubba IMO is trying to mislead, which is why Kevin Kisner called him out. Bubba likes to paint a picture of himself which doesn't go along with his actions. We've seen it his entire career.

Rob,

100% agreed with that scenario.

But what if Bubba has a smaller sponsor, which isn't the headline Tour event sponsor.  And they're having a corporate retreat that aligns with a different 2nd tier tourney that Bubba had no intention of playing otherwise.

This sponsor pays him extra to come out and participate in a few meet and greets and since he's already there, enters the tourney (which at that point is an almost explicit expectation anyways).  He is effectively being paid to show up and play that tournament, even if its not the only thing, and that's what I believe he was referencing with this statement: ""I miss the cut, I still make money. I make the cut, I make extra money."

And don't get me wrong, I have zero issue with this arrangement, but technically it violates the spirit of the PGA Rule of no appearance fees.


Has happened a long time
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 04, 2022, 03:46:49 PM
Anyone that thinks the top players on the PGA Tour aren't taking money and gifts from tournament sponsors to show up and play at their events needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Not so much Tier 1 tournaments, such as Riviera, Bay Hill, Memorial, etc., but tier 2 and below. We're not talking title sponsored players who are obligated to play in these events either, but non-title sponsored players.


Take the Rocket Mortgate Classic, for example. Rickie Fowler, Bubba Watson and Bryson DeChambeau (before he left for LIV) were all Rocket Mortgage sponsored players. Thus, as part of their contract obligation, they were required to show up to a tournament they probably didn't really want to play all that bad given where it was held and where it fell on the calendar. Unfortunately for Rocket Mortgage (Quicken Loans), the three of them alone aren't enough to attract significant enough interest in the event from locals in and around the Detroit area (myself included) and potential corporate suite sponsors, so they paid any number of non-Rocket Mortgage sponsored golfers to commit to playing their event, e.g. Cantlay, Finau, Hideki, Scott, Homa, Zalatoris, etc. That's the only way these secondary tournaments can make it, as it at least gives the appearance to prospective fans and corporate suite holders that they are fielding a legitimate, high-level professional golf tournament. To think otherwise is being disingnueous and for as much as I and others don't care for Bubba Watson the player/person, he speaks the truth regarding the Tours dirty underbelly that's been in existence for years, if not decades.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pete_Pittock on November 04, 2022, 04:58:49 PM
hope it was declared taxable income
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 04, 2022, 05:19:39 PM
hope it was declared taxable income
My guess is they're paid in cash so they can avoid declaring it and exposing themselves to fines and sanctions from the PGA Tour for rules violations.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 04, 2022, 05:37:49 PM
Mike the Tour fessed up to it today.  That reads vague enough to suggest a tournament sponsor could do this on a one-off basis, where the people at home wouldn't even know cause the logo won't show up on the apparel like a typical sponsor arrangement.  But it certainly seems to confirm what Bubba said.

“We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation. This is permissible under our guidelines,” the PGA Tour’s statement to ESPN said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-says-he-was-paid-behind-closed-doors-to-play-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13KzNj?cvid=ef8d4fc0e21d489084451a574ecf8dca
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 04, 2022, 07:20:48 PM
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.

Kalen,
If have a Buick logo on your bag. Buick is going to expect you to play in the Buick open. They are probably also going to expect you to mingle with their guests. You get paid to do that. That is not the same as an appearance fee.

Bubba IMO is trying to mislead, which is why Kevin Kisner called him out. Bubba likes to paint a picture of himself which doesn't go along with his actions. We've seen it his entire career.

Rob,

100% agreed with that scenario.

But what if Bubba has a smaller sponsor, which isn't the headline Tour event sponsor.  And they're having a corporate retreat that aligns with a different 2nd tier tourney that Bubba had no intention of playing otherwise.

This sponsor pays him extra to come out and participate in a few meet and greets and since he's already there, enters the tourney (which at that point is an almost explicit expectation anyways).  He is effectively being paid to show up and play that tournament, even if its not the only thing, and that's what I believe he was referencing with this statement: ""I miss the cut, I still make money. I make the cut, I make extra money."

And don't get me wrong, I have zero issue with this arrangement, but technically it violates the spirit of the PGA Rule of no appearance fees.

Kalen,
He’s getting paid to go to an event. He’s not getting paid to play in the tournament. That’s not even close to an appearance fee. He could do the outing and then fly out of town. There is no connection to the actual tournament.
An appearance fee is the sponsor of the tournament writing you a check to play their event.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 04, 2022, 07:31:09 PM
hope it was declared taxable income
My guess is they're paid in cash so they can avoid declaring it and exposing themselves to fines and sanctions from the PGA Tour for rules violations.


Yeah that’s what they’re doing. Taking huge sums of cash to avoid declaring it. Are you for real? They probably have Swiss bank accounts too. Hope they remember to file their Fbar’s. You were kidding right?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 04, 2022, 07:41:32 PM
Mike the Tour fessed up to it today.  That reads vague enough to suggest a tournament sponsor could do this on a one-off basis, where the people at home wouldn't even know cause the logo won't show up on the apparel like a typical sponsor arrangement.  But it certainly seems to confirm what Bubba said.

“We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation. This is permissible under our guidelines,” the PGA Tour’s statement to ESPN said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-says-he-was-paid-behind-closed-doors-to-play-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13KzNj?cvid=ef8d4fc0e21d489084451a574ecf8dca (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-says-he-was-paid-behind-closed-doors-to-play-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13KzNj?cvid=ef8d4fc0e21d489084451a574ecf8dca)


Bubba said he was paid to “play events”. The tour said they can be paid a “nominal” amount to perform a sponsor related activity. That’s not playing the event. I don’t see a confirmation in that. But I could be very well be wrong and I understand your point.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 04, 2022, 08:01:19 PM
Mike the Tour fessed up to it today.  That reads vague enough to suggest a tournament sponsor could do this on a one-off basis, where the people at home wouldn't even know cause the logo won't show up on the apparel like a typical sponsor arrangement.  But it certainly seems to confirm what Bubba said.

“We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation. This is permissible under our guidelines,” the PGA Tour’s statement to ESPN said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-says-he-was-paid-behind-closed-doors-to-play-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13KzNj?cvid=ef8d4fc0e21d489084451a574ecf8dca (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-says-he-was-paid-behind-closed-doors-to-play-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13KzNj?cvid=ef8d4fc0e21d489084451a574ecf8dca)

Bubba said he was paid to “play events”. The tour said they can be paid a “nominal” amount to perform a sponsor related activity. That’s not playing the event. I don’t see a confirmation in that. But I could be very well be wrong and I understand your point.


Rob,

I certainly understand that technically they are just being paid to do an event.  But to think there is no quid pro quo?

That would be like a guy paying an escort half his age $300/hr to come to his hotel room in the middle of the night just "to chat".  Anything else that occurs between two consenting adults is purely coincidental right?  ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 04, 2022, 08:23:47 PM
Kalen, the word the tour used was nominal. The appearance fees paid overseas are millions. Bubba should give an example with the $. I don’t think Bubba is playing the old BC open for a $25,000 fee to attend a cocktail party and shake a few hands. If  $500,000 is nominal to the tour then I would be in agreement with you.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 04, 2022, 08:48:35 PM
Nice to see Zac Blair out playing again on the Super Tour.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 04, 2022, 09:06:23 PM
Kalen, the word the tour used was nominal. The appearance fees paid overseas are millions. Bubba should give an example with the $. I don’t think Bubba is playing the old BC open for a $25,000 fee to attend a cocktail party and shake a few hands. If  $500,000 is nominal to the tour then I would be in agreement with you.


Rob,

In 2019-2020, Bubba played 20 events and went home with less than $25k in 12 of them (7 were cuts).  I would think that amount to show up for a few hand shakes, would still be interesting enough for him to stick around afterwards to play, even if it wouldn't be for a Tiger or Rory....
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 10, 2022, 04:13:14 PM
The real tour is on a Doak this week. Thank God we get to watch four rounds.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim_Cronin on November 10, 2022, 09:39:24 PM
Here's how the Bubba pitch works. Agent calls tournament director.


"Hey, we know your field is thin. Bubba will play if you pay him $250,000 to appear at a youth clinic during tournament week."


"No thanks."


But some say yes.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Steve Lang on November 10, 2022, 10:22:29 PM
The real tour is on a Doak this week. Thank God we get to watch four rounds.


JK, yeah, but the camera positions and perspectives have never seemed to do the place any favors, after all, it is pretty darn flat...   
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 10, 2022, 11:54:06 PM
I thought the course looked great. I wish ZB was playing better.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 11, 2022, 07:29:18 AM
Here's how the Bubba pitch works. Agent calls tournament director.


"Hey, we know your field is thin. Bubba will play if you pay him $250,000 to appear at a youth clinic during tournament week."


"No thanks."


But some say yes.


Sounds like something Bubba would do. Then tell everyone how he loves helping kids..........
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 11, 2022, 08:10:36 AM
Sounds like something Bubba would do. Then tell everyone how he loves helping kids..........


 ;D ;D ;D ;D   No truer words have evern been spoken. That was classic and spot-on!
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 11, 2022, 11:15:31 AM
Looks like Norman may be out...


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/10/eamon-lynch-problems-liv-golf-greater-greg-norman-incompetence/?itm_source=parsely-api
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 11, 2022, 12:44:27 PM
Wow! It looks as though things may be quickly unraveling for LIV. Were the league to collapse, what becomes of the players that signed contracts? Would the PGA Tour welcome them back? Perhaps all but Perez and Mickleson. I'm not sure Phil would even be welcomed on The Champions Tour, which the PGA Tour runs.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 11, 2022, 12:49:28 PM
Unfortunately that reads more like a gossip column as opposed to providing factual information.

There was more far more evidence and reason to believe that LIV was dead way back in February....
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 11, 2022, 01:04:53 PM
Finau is winning on a Doak and this architectural website can't stop talking about the LIV. Has Koepka been providing commentary? Is he banned from the grounds?

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 11, 2022, 03:15:51 PM
Finau is winning on a Doak and this architectural website can't stop talking about the LIV. Has Koepka been providing commentary? Is he banned from the grounds?
LOL! Sucks one of the co-designers isn't playing/competing on his own course this week.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Steve Lang on November 11, 2022, 03:24:50 PM
Finau is winning on a Doak and this architectural website can't stop talking about the LIV. Has Koepka been providing commentary? Is he banned from the grounds?
LOL! Sucks one of the co-designers isn't playing/competing on his own course this week.


BK as "Co-designer"  ???  consultant/opinion provider I believe more like it...


Tony fired a 62, good for him
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 11, 2022, 03:33:42 PM

BK as "Co-designer"  ???  consultant/opinion provider I believe more like it...

My comment about Brooks being a co-designer was said in jest as a means of playing off JK's funny comment.  ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on November 11, 2022, 03:51:18 PM
With the rapid rise in prize money on the PGA Tour is it not about time that Rory, Billy Horschel and all raised a glass to Phil and Greg for significantly increasing their earning potential ?


Obviously Jay Monahan will be pissed at them reducing the net amount left for him to take his pay out of but all the same, is this not a good result for professional golf ?


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 11, 2022, 04:33:04 PM
With the rapid rise in prize money on the PGA Tour is it not about time that Rory, Billy Horschel and all raised a glass to Phil and Greg for significantly increasing their earning potential?
No.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/pga-tour-announces-nine-year-media-rights-deal-beginning-2022 (https://www.golfchannel.com/news/pga-tour-announces-nine-year-media-rights-deal-beginning-2022)
https://golf.com/news/pga-tour-new-tv-rights-deal-cbs-nbc/ (https://golf.com/news/pga-tour-new-tv-rights-deal-cbs-nbc/)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 11, 2022, 11:16:11 PM
With the rapid rise in prize money on the PGA Tour is it not about time that Rory, Billy Horschel and all raised a glass to Phil and Greg for significantly increasing their earning potential ?


Obviously Jay Monahan will be pissed at them reducing the net amount left for him to take his pay out of but all the same, is this not a good result for professional golf ?


Niall


The players own the tour. The players hired Monaghan and if they don’t like the job he is doing they can fire him. I’m sorry that the best Euro’s and international players prefer to play the PGA tour than the DP tour. It’s been that way for what, the last 30+ years. Get over it.


BTW, no bigger fan than Rory, McDowell, Clarke, Langer, and many other International players than me.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim Leahy on November 12, 2022, 01:24:53 AM
Looks like Norman may be out...


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/10/eamon-lynch-problems-liv-golf-greater-greg-norman-incompetence/?itm_source=parsely-api (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/10/eamon-lynch-problems-liv-golf-greater-greg-norman-incompetence/?itm_source=parsely-api)
Norman not even getting his Ausie buddy Murdoch to carry LIV on his TV network sealed his fate. Just being an obnoxious person wasn't enough.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on November 12, 2022, 10:36:16 AM

The players own the tour. The players hired Monaghan and if they don’t like the job he is doing they can fire him. I’m sorry that the best Euro’s and international players prefer to play the PGA tour than the DP tour. It’s been that way for what, the last 30+ years. Get over it.



Why are you sorry ? I'm not. Good on them. They're professionals who are just trying to do the best for themselves, just like the guys playing on LIV. No need for rancour.


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 12, 2022, 10:49:55 AM
Too bad the Saudi’s didn’t make their nut on Bitcoin.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ken Moum on November 12, 2022, 12:12:49 PM

The players own the tour. The players hired Monaghan and if they don’t like the job he is doing they can fire him. I’m sorry that the best Euro’s and international players prefer to play the PGA tour than the DP tour. It’s been that way for what, the last 30+ years. Get over it.



Why are you sorry ? I'm not. Good on them. They're professionals who are just trying to do the best for themselves, just like the guys playing on LIV. No need for rancour.


Niall


I totally agree. I actually have gained respect for Perez (not that hard given what I thought of him before), and think that all those guys in their 40s did the right thing taking LIV money. 


But some of the LiV golfers think they ought to be able to cherry pick events to play on the other tours despite the fact that if Norman gets what he wants, the other tours will be gutted.  Of course lots of people are overlooking the fact that what Norman has wanted for 30 years is to stomp on the PGA Tour.

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 12, 2022, 01:57:44 PM

The players own the tour. The players hired Monaghan and if they don’t like the job he is doing they can fire him. I’m sorry that the best Euro’s and international players prefer to play the PGA tour than the DP tour. It’s been that way for what, the last 30+ years. Get over it.



Why are you sorry ? I'm not. Good on them. They're professionals who are just trying to do the best for themselves, just like the guys playing on LIV. No need for rancour.


Niall


Niall


I am with you. I don't particularly care about any tour nor 90% of tournaments. However, IMO, any leading tour in the long run will be better off for being more international than is currently the case. The Tour is a bit like politicians in that they won't see beyond an election cycle.


Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 12, 2022, 02:22:21 PM
I am with you. I don't particularly care about any tour nor 90% of tournaments. However, IMO, any leading tour in the long run will be better off for being more international than is currently the case. The Tour is a bit like politicians in that they won't see beyond an election cycle.
Why should the PGA Tour be so much more "international"? The U.S. is where the market is, and where the money is. And where the PGA Tour is, too.

The PGA Tour has a few international events, but anything more than a small increase in the number would be folly. Their members don't want to have to travel across the globe, and there's limited upside (and $) internationally for the PGA Tour, whose sponsors are looking to reach the U.S. market.

And TV viewing times? International places are lousy for that, so their TV partners don't really want them going international too often, either.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 12, 2022, 05:13:35 PM
And its not limited to just golf.

Nearly every elite basketball, baseball, football, and hockey player also play primarily in the US (with a few teams in Canada).  Just be thankful we let the Euros keep soccer with the EPL!  ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on November 15, 2022, 01:10:51 PM
So, is Greg Norman going to get whacked by the Saudis and replaced by the TaylorMade Adidas guy?


As much as the LIVers have gone all in on the number 54, I think a fair compromise would be for them to host 72 hole tournaments and open up 10 spots for "Monday qualifiers" and have a cut.


They want the rest of the golf world to apparently bend to their perceived financially-driven inertia, but yet somehow believe that they dont need to amend a thing with their business plan.


The arrogance is palpable. Why is there no indication from them on being just a tiny bit flexible?


In the absence of that, they are playing a different game than the rest of the world.


Play the same game, get the same points.


Press the button, get a cookie.


Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 15, 2022, 06:50:51 PM
Press the button, get a cookie.

This in a nutshell sums up pro golf. This approach has fostered unwatchable drivel. The entire landscape of pro golf is broken and needs a complete rethink.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim Martin on November 15, 2022, 07:42:12 PM
It looks like Rory is starting to capitulate somewhat as to finding a compromise with LIV on the condition that Greg Norman goes. The Saudi Golf Federation has indicated publicly that there is no plan to get rid of Norman. Game on!

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 15, 2022, 10:08:12 PM
Looks like Reeds attorney is all in on golf…….


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: JLahrman on November 15, 2022, 10:43:10 PM
It looks like Rory is starting to capitulate somewhat as to finding a compromise with LIV on the condition that Greg Norman goes. The Saudi Golf Federation has indicated publicly that there is no plan to get rid of Norman. Game on!


I feel as though McIlroy's public comments have been in this vein for several months now. He obviously doesn't care for Norman, but the fact of the matter is that if LIV were truly seeking to work with the PGA Tour in a collaborative manner that would allow the two to coexist and complement one another, Greg Norman would be possibly the worst choice to head up LIV.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ken Moum on November 16, 2022, 10:19:28 AM
It looks like Rory is starting to capitulate somewhat as to finding a compromise with LIV on the condition that Greg Norman goes. The Saudi Golf Federation has indicated publicly that there is no plan to get rid of Norman. Game on!


I feel as though McIlroy's public comments have been in this vein for several months now. He obviously doesn't care for Norman, but the fact of the matter is that if LIV were truly seeking to work with the PGA Tour in a collaborative manner that would allow the two to coexist and complement one another, Greg Norman would be possibly the worst choice to head up LIV.


If LIV was truly hoping to work with the PGA Tour and/or the DP World Tour, they wouldn't be trying to hire the 48 best players in the world to play 14 (or more) times a year. Few of those players compete more than about 25 times a year, with 14 LIV events and four majors, they would only be cherry-picking a few events elsewhere.


That would be the effective end of the PGA Tour, and Norman not only knows it, he apparently would welcome it.


The failure of the WGC series to gain traction after it was started only proves to me that he was wrong back in the 90s, there's not great attraction for fans in seeing the best players pulled out of normal Tour events so they can play against each other here, or around the world.


FWIW, I just read Shackelford's take on it, and he thinks the "elevated event" idea will also fail...and I agree with him.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 11:20:26 AM
I feel as though McIlroy's public comments have been in this vein for several months now. He obviously doesn't care for Norman, but the fact of the matter is that if LIV were truly seeking to work with the PGA Tour in a collaborative manner that would allow the two to coexist and complement one another, Greg Norman would be possibly the worst choice to head up LIV.
To LIV's credit, they've purposely avoided scheduling events that conflict with the majors, for obvious reasons, and the PGA Tour's elevated events. Which begs the question, why wouldn't the PGA Tour welcome the LIV contracted golfers to these events if it it elevates the quality of the field and viewership interest? Most of the guys on LIV didn't support lesser PGA Tour events when they were PGA Tour members anyway, so it's really no loss to the Tour as far as the quality of field that shows up to a Sanderson Farms Championship, Valero Open or John Deere Classic, to site some examples. Those events should either a) disappear entirely from the Tour calendar or b) become Korn Ferry tournaments.


The problem is you have butt-hurt, egotistical jerks running both leagues. The best thing that can happen is for both Jay Monahan and Greg Norman to step down from their respective positions and hire executives willing to make this work for the benefit of all. There will most likely be a merger of the two at some point, but that's year's off in the distance.


In short, this doesn't have to be an "us" vs. "them" proposition. Were Rory McIroy, Jordan Spieth, Justin Thomas and Jon Rahm to walk into Jay Monahan's office today and present him with an ultimatum to the effect of "Allow the LIV guys to play whatever PGA Tour events they want for the good of the league or we're walking", watch how quickly Monahan capitulates, as their defection would seal the demise of the PGA Tour as an ongoing concern. The upside to this is that it would allow all top professional golfers to play in LIV events and sign team contracts. Seeing the league only plans to have 60 rostered golfers going forward (one alternate on each team), this leaves a good chunk of non-LIV talent to play the other tours and flourish there.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David Cronan on November 16, 2022, 11:34:11 AM
Looks like Reeds attorney is all in on golf…….


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/)


Larry Klayman representing Patrick Reed is perversely poetic.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 11:43:52 AM
Looks like Reeds attorney is all in on golf…….


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/)


Larry Klayman representing Patrick Reed is perversely poetic.
Professional men's golf has become a freaking side show better suited for the National Enquirer! All these frivilous lawsuits need to stop so that cooler heads can prevail in order to arrive at some kind of truce, as this is doing nothing but causing irreperable harm to the sport.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 16, 2022, 11:53:50 AM
I feel as though McIlroy's public comments have been in this vein for several months now. He obviously doesn't care for Norman, but the fact of the matter is that if LIV were truly seeking to work with the PGA Tour in a collaborative manner that would allow the two to coexist and complement one another, Greg Norman would be possibly the worst choice to head up LIV.
To LIV's credit, they've purposely avoided scheduling events that conflict with the majors, for obvious reasons, and the PGA Tour's elevated events. Which begs the question, why wouldn't the PGA Tour welcome the LIV contracted golfers to these events if it it elevates the quality of the field and viewership interest? Most of the guys on LIV didn't support lesser PGA Tour events when they were PGA Tour members anyway, so it's really no loss to the Tour as far as the quality of field that shows up to a Sanderson Farms Championship, Valero Open or John Deere Classic, to site some examples. Those events should either a) disappear entirely from the Tour calendar or b) become Korn Ferry tournaments.


The problem is you have butt-hurt, egotistical jerks running both leagues. The best thing that can happen is for both Jay Monahan and Greg Norman to step down from their respective positions and hire executives willing to make this work for the benefit of all. There will most likely be a merger of the two at some point, but that's year's off in the distance.


Please give me an example of what makes Monahan a egotistical jerk? I see a guy doing his job protecting the tour and the tours owners who happen to be the players.

Greg Norman has had a hard on for the tour for 30 years. He finally found someone to finance it. I frankly haven’t heard any current or former regular tour player say a nice thing about Greg. Part of me thinks he never got over his major championship collapse’s and the disappoint has been turned into this vendetta. He should have one what 7 or 8 majors. If he’s successful he can add the collapse of the PGA tour  to his already impressive résumé.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 12:06:51 PM
Please give me an example of what makes Monahan a egotistical jerk? I see a guy doing his job protecting the tour and the tours owners who happen to be the players.
Jay Monahan has let his anger and bitterness with Greg Norman and LIV cloud his decision making. As with Norman hard line in the sand, his inflexibility on the issue of allowing LIV contracted golfers to play PGA Tour events has greatly hurt the Tour's product. Their ratings are tanking - especially the lesser events. Viewership of this past week's tournament in Houston was down 50% from last year. Gee, I wonder why? Could it have been that four of the Top 5 finishers from last year's event were banned from playing due to their association with LIV? Methinks, yes.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 16, 2022, 12:41:33 PM

To LIV's credit, they've purposely avoided scheduling events that conflict with the majors, for obvious reasons, and the PGA Tour's elevated events. Which begs the question, why wouldn't the PGA Tour welcome the LIV contracted golfers to these events if it it elevates the quality of the field and viewership interest?


Mike,

If they did this, that would be the death knell of the PGA Tour, because then players could have thier cake and eat it too.

As I see it, the only thing keeping more top guys from jumping right now at the massive money is being cut off from PGA Tour events and OWGR points to get into majors.  If you let them back in for select events, the PGA Tour would be LIV's bitch within a year.


P.S.  The reason ratings were down are due to football... golf always underperforms against that.  Hell it wasn't even on TV on Saturday, I had to find it on the Peacock App just to watch a bit of footage.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 16, 2022, 01:04:40 PM
Jon Rahm certainly seems to be the voice of reason on all of this...for now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/jon-rahm-blasts-new-world-ranking-formula-as-laughable-takes-swipe-at-greg-norman-for-his-vendetta/ar-AA14bb06?cvid=57e5d9b4488542d5af069928ae420e16 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/jon-rahm-blasts-new-world-ranking-formula-as-laughable-takes-swipe-at-greg-norman-for-his-vendetta/ar-AA14bb06?cvid=57e5d9b4488542d5af069928ae420e16)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 16, 2022, 01:08:17 PM
Please give me an example of what makes Monahan a egotistical jerk? I see a guy doing his job protecting the tour and the tours owners who happen to be the players.
Jay Monahan has let his anger and bitterness with Greg Norman and LIV cloud his decision making. As with Norman hard line in the sand, his inflexibility on the issue of allowing LIV contracted golfers to play PGA Tour events has greatly hurt the Tour's product. Their ratings are tanking - especially the lesser events. Viewership of this past week's tournament in Houston was down 50% from last year. Gee, I wonder why? Could it have been that four of the Top 5 finishers from last year's event were banned from playing due to their association with LIV? Methinks, yes.


What? Top 5 from 2021 were Kokrak, Scheffler, Tway, Kickok, Dahmen and Trainer.


You think the ratings are down because the guys listed other than Scheffler were banned? BTW isn't the Kokrak the only one on LIV. I must have something wrong here. Please correct me because one of us has the facts wrong.


https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+houston+open+final+results&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS865US865&ei=uyZ1Y-ecI6akptQP4ZulgAI&ved=0ahUKEwin5o6ypbP7AhUmkokEHeFNCSAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=2021+houston+open+final+results&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIFCCEQqwIyBQghEKsCOgoIABBHENYEELADOgcIABCABBANOggIABAIEB4QDToKCCEQwwQQChCgAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFCECli6EGD6F2gBcAF4AIABbogBnQSSAQM1LjGYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp (https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+houston+open+final+results&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS865US865&ei=uyZ1Y-ecI6akptQP4ZulgAI&ved=0ahUKEwin5o6ypbP7AhUmkokEHeFNCSAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=2021+houston+open+final+results&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIFCCEQqwIyBQghEKsCOgoIABBHENYEELADOgcIABCABBANOggIABAIEB4QDToKCCEQwwQQChCgAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFCECli6EGD6F2gBcAF4AIABbogBnQSSAQM1LjGYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp)


Monahan represents the tour players and their wishes.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 01:10:44 PM
Mike,

If they did this, that would be the death knell of the PGA Tour, because then players could have thier cake and eat it too.

As I see it, the only thing keeping more top guys from jumping right now at the massive money is being cut off from PGA Tour events and OWGR points to get into majors.  If you let them back in for select events, the PGA Tour would be LIV's bitch within a year.

You may be right, but I disagree you can't have players participate in events in both leagues and have them survive in their present form. Were LIV to increase the number of events from 14 say to 18 or 20, then that changes things. Also depending on how LIV contracts are structured, players may only be required to show up to 10 or 12 of the 14 events next year, which provides opportunity for the alternates on each team to play and gives them time to play elsewhere if they so choose.


However, were a select number of Top 10 players to defect the PGA Tour for LIV it's a moot point, as the Tour would be dead as we know it unles they allow LIV professionals to play in their events.   

Quote
P.S.  The reason ratings were down are due to football... golf always underperforms against that.  Hell it wasn't even on TV on Saturday, I had to find it on the Peacock App just to watch a bit of footage.
The tournament is always pitted against college and pro football given its place on the calendar, which is unfortunate, as Memorial Park presents itself great on TV and it's a pity so few see it.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 01:22:19 PM
What? Top 5 from 2021 were Kokrak, Scheffler, Tway, Kickok, Dahmen and Trainer.

You think the ratings are down because the guys listed other than Scheffler were banned? BTW isn't the Kokrak the only one on LIV. I must have something wrong here. Please correct me because one of us has the facts wrong.

My bad. I meant 2020. The one and only time the event had a respectable field.

1. Carlos Ortiz
2. Dustin Johnson
3. Hideki Matsuyama
4. Talor Gooch
5. Brooks Koepka

You and me will have to agree to disagree on Jay Monahan, as the only reason he's brought anything of value to the PGA Tour is because of the pressure he was under to prevent more top golfers from defecting to LIV. He's been reactive, not proactive the entirety of the dispute.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Charlie Goerges on November 16, 2022, 01:29:37 PM
Jon Rahm certainly seems to be the voice of reason on all of this...for now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/jon-rahm-blasts-new-world-ranking-formula-as-laughable-takes-swipe-at-greg-norman-for-his-vendetta/ar-AA14bb06?cvid=57e5d9b4488542d5af069928ae420e16 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/jon-rahm-blasts-new-world-ranking-formula-as-laughable-takes-swipe-at-greg-norman-for-his-vendetta/ar-AA14bb06?cvid=57e5d9b4488542d5af069928ae420e16)




I read through that. Toward the end he defended Sergio saying "I don't think his fans care where he plays". I suppose technically that's right... if you don't have any fans, by definition they can't care where you play.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 01:46:17 PM
I read through that. Toward the end he defended Sergio saying "I don't think his fans care where he plays". I suppose technically that's right... if you don't have any fans, by definition they can't care where you play.


The other telling comment from the article was this.


“I’m not going to lie and tell you I agree with everything the PGA Tour has done,” Rahm continued. “It was a mistake and a wasted opportunity to not meet with LIV. Both sides missed the mark on that. And that is where a lot of the animosity started. Even if they disagreed, it would have been good to talk. So to get a resolution we might need one or both of them gone. I hope not. Jay has done a great job for the PGA Tour.”


Rahm's throwing Monahan a bone in the last sentence after saying he and the Tour essentially screwed up by not meeting with LIV before things got out of hand. As I stated in a previous post, Rahm agrees that it may require both Norman and Monahan stepping down in order for the situation between the two competing interests to be resolved amicably.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on November 16, 2022, 02:00:26 PM

The failure of the WGC series to gain traction after it was started only proves to me that he was wrong back in the 90s, there's not great attraction for fans in seeing the best players pulled out of normal Tour events so they can play against each other here, or around the world.



Maybe the inability for the WGC’s to gain traction was because Norman was wrong. Or maybe it is because 70% of all WGC events still took place in the US, during the regular PGA Tour season, diminishing the perspective that they were anything other than regular events to much of the golf watching audience.


The failure of the WCG’s from becoming anything more than they have has a lot more to do with the PGA Tour desire to only provide them lip service, rather than truly boost them as strong international events.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 02:24:57 PM
Maybe the inability for the WGC’s to gain traction was because Norman was wrong. Or maybe it is because 70% of all WGC events still took place in the US, during the regular PGA Tour season, diminishing the perspective that they were anything other than regular events to much of the golf watching audience.


The failure of the WCG’s from becoming anything more than they have has a lot more to do with the PGA Tour desire to only provide them lip service, rather than truly boost them as strong international events.
You're 100% spot on in both assessments. I coudn't agree more.


The only WGC event that brought anything of interest to me, aside from the match play event in Austin each spring, was the tournament at Chapultepec Golf Club just outside Mexico City. That event drew incredible crowds, the course was fabulous and the final round drama was some of the best of the golfing year. I don't know why they changed the venue and or got rid of it, but for the two or three years it was held there it was one of the best events.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 16, 2022, 03:38:39 PM
Which begs the question, why wouldn't the PGA Tour welcome the LIV contracted golfers to these events if it it elevates the quality of the field and viewership interest?
Because then the threat of suspension (and the follow-through) lacks teeth.

There will most likely be a merger of the two at some point, but that's year's off in the distance.
I wouldn't bet on that.

In short, this doesn't have to be an "us" vs. "them" proposition. Were Rory McIroy, Jordan Spieth, Justin Thomas and Jon Rahm to walk into Jay Monahan's office today and present him with an ultimatum to the effect of "Allow the LIV guys to play whatever PGA Tour events they want for the good of the league or we're walking", watch how quickly Monahan capitulates
Well no shit, but why would they do that at this point? The fact is they haven't… and they all could have gone to LIV.

It's rare that I tend to agree with Rob, but I do here, too: show me where Jay has been "an egotistical jerk," let alone on the scale of Third Leg Greg.

Jay Monahan has let his anger and bitterness with Greg Norman and LIV cloud his decision making.
A) That's very different than being "an egotistical jerk" and
B) Says you, from your position WELL outside of the entire situation.

I disagree it has "greatly hurt the Tour's product."
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 16, 2022, 03:38:45 PM
What? Top 5 from 2021 were Kokrak, Scheffler, Tway, Kickok, Dahmen and Trainer.

You think the ratings are down because the guys listed other than Scheffler were banned? BTW isn't the Kokrak the only one on LIV. I must have something wrong here. Please correct me because one of us has the facts wrong.

My bad. I meant 2020. The one and only time the event had a respectable field.

1. Carlos Ortiz
2. Dustin Johnson
3. Hideki Matsuyama
4. Talor Gooch
5. Brooks Koepka

You and me will have to agree to disagree on Jay Monahan, as the only reason he's brought anything of value to the PGA Tour is because of the pressure he was under to prevent more top golfers from defecting to LIV. He's been reactive, not proactive the entirety of the dispute.


LIV didn't exist in 2021. Wonder why the LIV guys didn't play then?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 03:44:38 PM
LIV didn't exist in 2021. Wonder why the LIV guys didn't play then?
Good question. Perhaps it ties back to not wanting to play in the lower tier events or there may have been financial incentives for players to support the new tournament year one? Brooks was obligated to be there given his role as a consultant to Tom on the restovation project. I suspect he may have gotten D.J. to turn out for it given their friendship. Talor Gooch hadn't yet established himself to the level he did in 2021 and Carlos Ortiz was a relatively young unknown on tour at the time with a lot of promise and potential. Interestingly, of those four Brooks was the only one to play the event in 2021 where he proceded to miss the cut. The defending champ, Carlos Ortiz, didn't even bother showing up.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Jake McCarty on November 16, 2022, 03:48:42 PM
As someone who doesn't play for any golf tour circuit, I really have nothing firsthand to offer, except my thoughts as a fan.


All I care about are majors. I don't care if someone plays in the Antartica league or the Ponte Vedra Beach league-it's how they step up to the plate at the majors that matters to me.


And, 72 holes no cut is way easier than the US AM, which I consider the fifth major. I'm just too stupid, I suppose, to understand the logic of why 72 holes and a cut determines who the best golfer is. No wonder I was rejected to Harvard for thinking that it's just an attempt for different golf tournaments to sell advertising.


One can talk about how OWGR dictates the field for big tournaments, an argument that I find circular and myopic.


I guess I'm confused why the Ponte Vedra Beach tour has such an outsized influence. No I'm not. It's just money.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 16, 2022, 04:30:30 PM
LIV didn't exist in 2021. Wonder why the LIV guys didn't play then?
Good question. Perhaps it ties back to not wanting to play in the lower tier events or there may have been financial incentives for players to support the new tournament year one? Brooks was obligated to be there given his role as a consultant to Tom on the restovation project. I suspect he may have gotten D.J. to turn out for it given their friendship. Talor Gooch hadn't yet established himself to the level he did in 2021 and Carlos Ortiz was a relatively young unknown on tour at the time with a lot of promise and potential. Interestingly, of those four Brooks was the only one to play the event in 2021 where he proceded to miss the cut. The defending champ, Carlos Ortiz, didn't even bother showing up.


Financial incentives like large unreported cash payments as you previously suspected.....
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 16, 2022, 04:36:37 PM
Financial incentives like large unreported cash payments as you previously suspected.....
Or reported gifts/payments. Who knows? It all depends on the the player and or the player's agent, the tournament sponsor(s) and the terms of the deal negotiated between the parties.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 16, 2022, 07:58:32 PM
Financial incentives like large unreported cash payments as you previously suspected.....
Or reported gifts/payments. Who knows? It all depends on the the player and or the player's agent, the tournament sponsor(s) and the terms of the deal negotiated between the parties.



Interesting, gifts instead of taxable compensation.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on November 16, 2022, 09:07:26 PM
I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

If the PGA Tour had been preparing for a potential disruption by developing a series of elevated events before the start of LIV, where is the documentation of this? Are there any press releases or article discussing the development prior to the spring of this year? Or are all accounts of what the tour was doing behind the scenes simply revisionist history trying to smooth over their ineptitude?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Tim Leahy on November 17, 2022, 06:39:20 AM
LIV golf is as dead as Roman numerals. They can't even buy time on national TV. Nobody wants to watch the players they signed play exhibition golf that doesn't compare to the PGA Tour. The Saudi's are pulling funding in 2025 if not sooner and Norman is an obnoxious leader just like his buddy comrade Trumpsky. All the LIV tour has done is make PGA tour members richer. ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on November 17, 2022, 06:57:32 AM
All the LIV tour has done is make PGA tour members richer. ;D


Don't let Erik hear you saying that. He's still denying reality.


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on November 17, 2022, 07:15:54 AM
I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.


Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 17, 2022, 08:21:17 AM
I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.


Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall


The LIV players made it personal when they started bashing the PGA tour to justify leaving. Instead of saying "I did it for the money" like Varner they lied about things like less travel, more time off, growing the game,  blah blah blah. It's only about the money.


It's also ONLY personal for Greg Norman.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 17, 2022, 08:28:43 AM
I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.


Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall


The LIV players made it personal when they started bashing the PGA tour to justify leaving. Instead of saying "I did it for the money" like Varner they lied about things like less travel, more time off, growing the game,  blah blah blah. It's only about the money.


It's also ONLY personal for Greg Norman.

Bashing a Tour isn't personal. Bashing a person is personal. Of course, many people take things personally even when comments aren't about them. That seems to be the case with many anti LIV folks....no? This entire scenario is about business; most of it in the long run will have nothing to do with golf. Anything made personal is a sideline show which many seem to buy into hook, line and sinker.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on November 17, 2022, 08:48:19 AM
I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.


Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall


The LIV players made it personal when they started bashing the PGA tour to justify leaving. Instead of saying "I did it for the money" like Varner they lied about things like less travel, more time off, growing the game,  blah blah blah. It's only about the money.


It's also ONLY personal for Greg Norman.


It’s not surprising that when Jacksonville resident Cam Smith left for LIV he lost access to TPC Sawgrass, but No Laying Up has reported multiple times that Monahan has called around to try and blackball Cam from all the clubs in the Jacksonville metro area. That sure sounds personal to me.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 17, 2022, 09:40:28 AM
"It’s not surprising that when Jacksonville resident Cam Smith left for LIV he lost access to TPC Sawgrass, but No Laying Up has reported multiple times that Monahan has called around to try and blackball Cam from all the clubs in the Jacksonville metro area. That sure sounds personal to me."

If true I would agree. I would like to hear Cam Smith's comments on this rumor.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 10:29:15 AM
I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

If the PGA Tour had been preparing for a potential disruption by developing a series of elevated events before the start of LIV, where is the documentation of this? Are there any press releases or article discussing the development prior to the spring of this year? Or are all accounts of what the tour was doing behind the scenes simply revisionist history trying to smooth over their ineptitude?
Very astute summary of the current situation we're in and how we got here. You're spot-on about Monahan and the PGA Tour's knowledge of the SGL (Saudi Golf League/LIV) and PGL prior to that. It wasn't as if there weren't rumors swirling around for years of a competing tour or golf league challenging the PGA Tours power structure. I honestly think they never thought it would come to fruition - especially after Phil Mickelson so ingloriously blew himself and any thoughts of the SGL (LIV) becoming a reality up until it did. The Tour and Monahan, in particular, were completely caught off guard and they've been scrambling ever since to get ahead of the story.


The only reason the Tour has taken the actions it has is due to the players only meeting Tiger and Rory held at the FedEx Cup BMW Championship late August, in which they outlined to the rest of the PGA Tour members how the Tour is going to be structured and conduct itself going forward. I question how much input and involvment Jay Monahan had in the negotiations and wouldn't be surprised given their simultaneous announcement of TMRW Golf that Tiger and Rory are the one's calling the shots and Jay Monahan's become little more than a PR mouthpiece and overseeer of the day-to-day operations.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Dave Doxey on November 17, 2022, 11:28:09 AM
As someone who doesn't play for any golf tour circuit, I really have nothing firsthand to offer, except my thoughts as a fan.


All I care about are majors. I don't care if someone plays in the Antartica league or the Ponte Vedra Beach league-it's how they step up to the plate at the majors that matters to me.


And, 72 holes no cut is way easier than the US AM, which I consider the fifth major. I'm just too stupid, I suppose, to understand the logic of why 72 holes and a cut determines who the best golfer is. No wonder I was rejected to Harvard for thinking that it's just an attempt for different golf tournaments to sell advertising.


One can talk about how OWGR dictates the field for big tournaments, an argument that I find circular and myopic.


I guess I'm confused why the Ponte Vedra Beach tour has such an outsized influence. No I'm not. It's just money.


I agree completely.  The majors are all that I care about.  I want to see the best players in the world, regardless of where they play for the rest of the season.   Trying to keep top players out, via whatever ranking system, only weakens the significance of the majors.


As for the rest of the season, i find network golf unwatchable without a DVR, and even then lacking in golf shot coverage.   LIV coverage is much more appealing as the ratio of actual golf shots to wasted time is way better.


I don't understand the hate/fear expressed by PGAT proponents.  Resistance to change, I guess.  The 54 hole argument is hard to understand.  Would 90 hole tournaments be even better?


I hope that both sides act a bit more mature.  Stop negative campaigns and name calling and find a way to coexist.  Competition is good and can only serve to improve the quality and popularity of the entertainment product.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 11:33:51 AM
show me where Jay has been "an egotistical jerk," let alone on the scale of Third Leg Greg.
Like Greg, he's turned this into a personal vendetta and has no interest in working out a settlement with LIV. In fact, he would prefer to crush them at this point and have them disappear entirely. That's rooted in ego and has little to nothing to do with what's in the best interest of professional golf.

I'm far from alone in expressing this sentiment. Butch Harmon said much the same in an interview he did with Eurosport last Sept.

https://www.eurosport.com/golf/leave-your-egos-at-the-door-butch-harmon-urges-liv-golf-chief-greg-norman-and-jay-monahan-to-find-so_sto9115973/story.shtml (https://www.eurosport.com/golf/leave-your-egos-at-the-door-butch-harmon-urges-liv-golf-chief-greg-norman-and-jay-monahan-to-find-so_sto9115973/story.shtml)


To further entrench its hardline stance against LIV and preserve what's left of the PGA Tour, they officially appointed business power-broker, Jimmy Dunne, to the PGA Tour policy board as an independent director with voting privileges (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimmy-dunne-pga-tour-new-power-broker-liv-golf-battle (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimmy-dunne-pga-tour-new-power-broker-liv-golf-battle)). He's essentially been hired as a "fixer" and has no qualms of using heavy-handed tactics to get his way. As the article I linked to from Golf Digest points out,
His appointment to the board, Dunne said, “is a war-time deal.” He did not use the famous line from "The Godfather," about “going to the mattresses” as the Corleone family goes to war with the other New York mob families.

Again, this has become a personal matter between warring factions and will not end well if cooler heads don't prevail and are brought to the negotiating table sooner rather than later. If not, there will be blood and the real losers in all this will be the fans.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 17, 2022, 11:36:54 AM
While I would certainly agree there is no way Monahan didn't know about the Saudi league...

Even knowing what's coming down the pipe, how do you compete with or respond to an entity who's willing to give someone like Phil $300 Million, or for that matter someone like Pat Perez $10 million....all upfront.  Its just absurd on several levels and sure as hell doesn't make sense from an ROI perspective.

What would you have done differently if you were in Jay's shoes to counter that?  And be as specific as possible.

P.S.   Dont' forget you would then have to engage a guy who's had a 3 decade long grudge against your org, and nothing would pleasure him more than putting your balls in a vice and watching you squirm.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 11:51:49 AM
Even knowing what's coming down the pipe, how do you compete with or respond to an entity who's willing to give someone like Phil $300 Million, or for that matter someone like Pat Perez $10 million....all upfront.  Its just absurd on several levels and sure as hell doesn't make sense from an ROI perspective.

What would you have done differently if you were in Jay's shoes to counter that?  And be as specific as possible.
I applaud all the changes Tiger and Rory formulated with the Tour from the meetings held ahead of the BMW Championship. I think it's going to equate to a better viewing product and provide a lot of opportunities for guys that don't initially qualify for the elevated events. I like the restructured tournament calendar and going back to a calendar year format, in addition to the new guaranteed payment structure and purse increases. I think where they are still missing the boat is with international events and building a broader audience for the PGA Tour brand.


Problem is this all could and should have been done last fall when the SGL rumors were intensifying and picking up steam as a pre-emptive strike. Had they done that, I'm convinced LIV would not exist as we know it today, if at all. But because the powers that be dragged their feet and didn't move with any sense of urgency until it was too late, we're stuck in the quagmire we're in.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 17, 2022, 12:40:08 PM
show me where Jay has been "an egotistical jerk," let alone on the scale of Third Leg Greg.
Like Greg, he's turned this into a personal vendetta and has no interest in working out a settlement with LIV. In fact, he would prefer to crush them at this point and have them disappear entirely. That's rooted in ego and has little to nothing to do with what's in the best interest of professional golf.

I'm far from alone in expressing this sentiment. Butch Harmon said much the same in an interview he did with Eurosport last Sept.

https://www.eurosport.com/golf/leave-your-egos-at-the-door-butch-harmon-urges-liv-golf-chief-greg-norman-and-jay-monahan-to-find-so_sto9115973/story.shtml (https://www.eurosport.com/golf/leave-your-egos-at-the-door-butch-harmon-urges-liv-golf-chief-greg-norman-and-jay-monahan-to-find-so_sto9115973/story.shtml)


To further entrench its hardline stance against LIV and preserve what's left of the PGA Tour, they officially appointed business power-broker, Jimmy Dunne, to the PGA Tour policy board as an independent director with voting privileges (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimmy-dunne-pga-tour-new-power-broker-liv-golf-battle (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimmy-dunne-pga-tour-new-power-broker-liv-golf-battle)). He's essentially been hired as a "fixer" and has no qualms of using heavy-handed tactics to get his way. As the article I linked to from Golf Digest points out,
His appointment to the board, Dunne said, “is a war-time deal.” He did not use the famous line from "The Godfather," about “going to the mattresses” as the Corleone family goes to war with the other New York mob families.

Again, this has become a personal matter between warring factions and will not end well if cooler heads don't prevail and are brought to the negotiating table sooner rather than later. If not, there will be blood and the real losers in all this will be the fans.


If you are going to bad mouth Jimmy Dunne you are going down the wrong road. The guy is a fucking hero to a lot of people who's lives were shattered on 9/11.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf-fields-rosaforte-911
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 12:49:02 PM
Don't let Erik hear you saying that. He's still denying reality.
I've never said that.

You gave all or almost all of the credit to LIV for the increase in purses, when in reality purses were going to go up substantially anyway because the new TV deal was worth so many hundreds of millions of dollars more.

The PGA Tour players were going to see an increase in purses, etc. with or without LIV. No doubt some more funds may have been made available, but to pretend it was the only or even majority reason why… no.

I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that
Ummmmmm… contracts? For guys who view themselves as free agents? (Who then promptly signed contracts with LIV…) You can't have contracts in a meritocracy-type situation like the PGA Tour.

And those of you bashing Jay should listen to Xander on the NLU podcast. He thinks Jay has done a good job, and that you can't prepare to compete against an irrational actor that isn't and doesn't need to follow normal business practices.

That's rooted in ego and has little to nothing to do with what's in the best interest of professional golf.
A) He's not the commissioner of "professional golf." He's the commissioner of the PGA Tour. So… no, you've failed to show how this is about ego.B) What makes him a jerk? Still waiting.Does appointing Jimmy Dunne to the board somehow make Jay a jerk?

Problem is this all could and should have been done last fall when the SGL rumors were intensifying and picking up steam as a pre-emptive strike.
Hind sight is 20/20. If he does that, and nothing comes about, you (or others) would be in here talking about how Jay didn't need to make those changes, blah blah blah.


Plus, making dramatic changes then would have likely upset a bunch of people back then, including sponsors, etc. Tournaments are organized and in place with agreements, etc. for years. The PGA Tour isn't a 10-person company. They can't be as nimble as you seem to want to think they can be, and expecting that is, to borrow Niall's incorrectly applied term… not living in reality.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on November 17, 2022, 01:12:40 PM
While I would certainly agree there is no way Monahan didn't know about the Saudi league...

Even knowing what's coming down the pipe, how do you compete with or respond to an entity who's willing to give someone like Phil $300 Million, or for that matter someone like Pat Perez $10 million....all upfront.  Its just absurd on several levels and sure as hell doesn't make sense from an ROI perspective.

What would you have done differently if you were in Jay's shoes to counter that?  And be as specific as possible.

P.S.   Dont' forget you would then have to engage a guy who's had a 3 decade long grudge against your org, and nothing would pleasure him more than putting your balls in a vice and watching you squirm.

What would I have done differently?

At any point over the last 4 or 5 years; while the PGL was developing their concept, talking with broadcast partners, sponsors, agents, and players; I would have taken the meeting with Andy Gardiner. Considering their desire was always to work with the tour, what would have been the harm in talking with the PGL? Best case scenario, Andy presents a compelling case and I see value for the Tour and the players. Worst case, Andy presents their model and I figure out how to stop their progress, preserving the tour as it is.

This conversation could have taken place before the Saudi's even became interested in PGL. It could have taken place after the Saudi/PGL split while the Saudi's were floating the idea of their own League, it could have taken place in the fall of 2021 when the PGL provided the PGA Tour with the business plan and financials for them to review. The PGA Tour at all points refused to meet with the PGL, they even went so far as to not confirm that they received the materials but told their players that they had reviewed the PGL model and it did not make financial sense. Whether true or not, the PGA Tour was clearly being disingenuous to one party, either lying to their players or lying to a potential collaborator.

The PGA Tour never had to deal with the potential of a hostile partner, until that hostile partner in LIV golf started scheduling events and recruiting players. At which time the PGA tour had missed the boat.


Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 01:13:48 PM
If you are going to bad mouth Jimmy Dunne you are going down the wrong road. The guy is a fucking hero to a lot of people who's lives were shattered on 9/11.
I never bad-mouthed Jimmy Dunne or said he was a bad guy. I simply said what his new "official" role is with the PGA Tour and extracted a comment he himself made in the Golf Digest article. That said, he has a reputation for being schrewed business person and was brought in primarily to keep existing PGA Tour players in lock-step with the organization. From reading the article, he comes across as the type of guy who will give the shirt off his back for a friend, but whose bad side you don't want to be on if you know what's best for you.


To publicly say "This is war-time deal" is a a pretty heavy-handed statement and is a stern shot across the bow to LIV. It also tells me things between the two are going to get uglier before they get better.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 01:23:45 PM
A) So… no, you've failed to show how this is about ego.B) What makes him a jerk? Still waiting.Does appointing Jimmy Dunne to the board somehow make Jay a jerk?
I disagree with your first point and to your second, the fact that Jay Monahan had multiple opportunities the past five years to explore working and collaborating with the PGL and later, SGL and simply brushed them off and dismissed them as though they were more of a nuisance than a help, tells me all I need to know about the arrogant jerk he is.


I suspect there's 40+ guys on the LIV tour currently that would agree with me.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 17, 2022, 01:28:31 PM
A) So… no, you've failed to show how this is about ego.B) What makes him a jerk? Still waiting.Does appointing Jimmy Dunne to the board somehow make Jay a jerk?
I disagree with your first point and to your second, the fact that Jay Monahan had multiple opportunities the past five years to explore working and collaborating with the PGL and later, SGL and simply brushed them off and dismissed them as if they were more of a nuisance than a help, tells me all I need to know about the arrogant jerk he is.


I suspect there's 40+ guys on the LIV tour currently that would agree with me.


Well you left one part off.


"I suspect there's 40+ guys with hundreds of millions of reasons on the LIV tour currently that would agree with me.  ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 01:32:47 PM
Well you left one part off.


"I suspect there's 40+ guys with hundreds of millions of reasons on the LIV tour currently that would agree with me.  ;D
LOL! Thanks for injecting some humor in the conversation. It needed it. I hate the place we're at in professional men's golf and just want the daily soap opera and one up's-manship crap to end. To quote Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 01:45:52 PM

I disagree with your first point
You're seeing what you want to see. If it was about ego, it'd be about protecting JAY and promoting JAY, not doing his work as commissioner of the PGA Tour. He didn't build it. It's not him. And he's not much to say that he's "egotistical." I think you're confusing that he's in a position of power as commissioner with having an "ego."


and to your second, the fact that Jay Monahan had multiple opportunities the past five years to explore working and collaborating with the PGL and later, SGL and simply brushed them off and dismissed them as though they were more of a nuisance than a help, tells me all I need to know about the arrogant jerk he is.
Do you think you know more about what it takes to run the PGA Tour than the commissioner, to the point that you can call him an "egotistical jerk?" Seems so. Have you had a conversation with him to ask him why he didn't meet with the PGL? Do you understand how much (not 100% of course, but not 0%) he works for the players, not the owners group like in most other sports?


I suspect there's 40+ guys on the LIV tour currently that would agree with me.
Well there are only about 48 of them, and many of them weren't even on the PGA Tour, so…


To quote Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
And yet, seemingly, rather than place any blame on the disruptor with the blood money, you want to lay all the blame at the inability to "get along" at the feet of Jay Monahan.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 02:14:07 PM
And yet, seemingly, rather than place any blame on the disruptor with the blood money, you want to lay all the blame at the inability to "get along" at the feet of Jay Monahan.
You need to go back and read an earlier comment where I chastised Greg equally for bringing us to the place we're at. He's as much to blame for the morass the sport finds itself in as anyone. He doesn't get a free pass from me as you seem all too willing to give to Jay.


Again, as Jon Rahm suggested two days ago at a presser (and I pointed out in this thread yesterday) perhaps Greg and Jay should both step down to lower the tone and temperature of the conversaion and see if some type of agreement or resolution between the two groups can be made. Given the recent moves made by both sides, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 17, 2022, 02:17:23 PM

I disagree with your first point
You're seeing what you want to see. If it was about ego, it'd be about protecting JAY and promoting JAY, not doing his work as commissioner of the PGA Tour. He didn't build it. It's not him. And he's not much to say that he's "egotistical." I think you're confusing that he's in a position of power as commissioner with having an "ego."


and to your second, the fact that Jay Monahan had multiple opportunities the past five years to explore working and collaborating with the PGL and later, SGL and simply brushed them off and dismissed them as though they were more of a nuisance than a help, tells me all I need to know about the arrogant jerk he is.
Do you think you know more about what it takes to run the PGA Tour than the commissioner, to the point that you can call him an "egotistical jerk?" Seems so. Have you had a conversation with him to ask him why he didn't meet with the PGL? Do you understand how much (not 100% of course, but not 0%) he works for the players, not the owners group like in most other sports?


I suspect there's 40+ guys on the LIV tour currently that would agree with me.
Well there are only about 48 of them, and many of them weren't even on the PGA Tour, so…


To quote Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
And yet, seemingly, rather than place any blame on the disruptor with the blood money, you want to lay all the blame at the inability to "get along" at the feet of Jay Monahan.


You have to admit that Jay did F up. He believed Bryson, DJ, and Brooks when they said in Feb that they were committed to the PGA tour. How could he be so stupid.............


Still waiting for Phil to meet up with his employer to explain the evil MFer comment. I've sure they haven't forgotten about it. Thinking Phil isn't taking any meetings unless they are in the middle of a crowd of people.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 02:28:53 PM
You need to go back and read an earlier comment where I chastised Greg equally for bringing us to the place we're at.
No I don't. Greg and LIV were the disruptors here. They were the ones who "did" things to "professional golf."

He's as much to blame
More to blame. Greg + LIV.

He doesn't get a free pass from me as you seem all too willing to give to Jay.
Nope. I'm not giving Jay a free pass, I'm saying only that you don't understand things to the level needed to form a decent opinion. I haven't said Jay's done a great job. I haven't said Jay definitely shouldn't have taken the meeting. You're the one saying the opposite of those types of things. I'm only pointing out that you haven't really got a clue what you're talking about, and that the situation is far more complex than you're making it out to be from your armchair, and that some of your opinions have little or no basis in fact.

Again, as Jon Rahm suggested two days ago at a presser (and I pointed out in this thread yesterday) perhaps Greg and Jay should both step down to lower the tone and temperature of the conversaion and see if some type of agreement or resolution between the two groups can be made. Given the recent moves made by both sides, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
He didn't say "Greg and Jay should step down." He said:

Quote
[Greg Norman] “His intentions might not be as pure as they could, which is a problem,” Rahm said. “So he might not be the best person for the job, even if he has done great things for the tour. I do believe that, for conversations to take place, Greg might need to be gone. Right now, it doesn’t seem like he and [PGA Tour commissioner] Jay [Monahan] will want to be in the same room together.

“Even if they disagreed, it would have been good to talk. So to get a resolution we might need one or both of them gone. I hope not. Jay has done a great job for the PGA Tour.”
That's pretty different than "both should step down." He's suggesting that it MIGHT be required, while laying almost all of the blame on Greg and saying that Jay has done "a great job for the PGA Tour."
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Jeff Evagues on November 17, 2022, 02:33:38 PM
I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.
+1

Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall


The LIV players made it personal when they started bashing the PGA tour to justify leaving. Instead of saying "I did it for the money" like Varner they lied about things like less travel, more time off, growing the game,  blah blah blah. It's only about the money.


It's also ONLY personal for Greg Norman.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 02:34:53 PM
Still waiting for Phil to meet up with his employer to explain the evil MFer comment. I've sure they haven't forgotten about it. Thinking Phil isn't taking any meetings unless they are in the middle of a crowd of people.
Agree 100%! Although he's conveniently trying to re-write history and now says he never made that remark in the phone conversation he had with Alan Shipnuck. As if anyone but the most ardent Phil fans are buying that.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 02:44:54 PM
Agree 100%! Although he's conveniently trying to re-write history and now says he never made that remark in the phone conversation he had with Alan Shipnuck. As if anyone but the most ardent Phil fans are buying that.
In other words, cary buys it.  ;)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 02:57:57 PM
Nope. I'm not giving Jay a free pass, I'm saying only that you don't understand things to the level needed to form a decent opinion. I haven't said Jay's done a great job. I haven't said Jay definitely shouldn't have taken the meeting. You're the one saying the opposite of those types of things. I'm only pointing out that you haven't really got a clue what you're talking about, and that the situation is far more complex than you're making it out to be from your armchair, and that some of your opinions have little or no basis in fact.
My comments are based on what's available in the media for public consumption on the subject, same as you or most anyone else here commenting on it. What makes what you have to say any more credible than anyone else who holds an opinion different from yours? Do you work for the PGA Tour or have inside sources that only speak off the record to make you an authority? If so, please enlighten us.




Quote
Quote
[Greg Norman] “His intentions might not be as pure as they could, which is a problem,” Rahm said. “So he might not be the best person for the job, even if he has done great things for the tour. I do believe that, for conversations to take place, Greg might need to be gone. Right now, it doesn’t seem like he and [PGA Tour commissioner] Jay [Monahan] will want to be in the same room together.

“Even if they disagreed, it would have been good to talk. So to get a resolution we might need one or both of them gone. I hope not. Jay has done a great job for the PGA Tour.”
That's pretty different than "both should step down." He's suggesting that it MIGHT be required, while laying almost all of the blame on Greg and saying that Jay has done "a great job for the PGA Tour."
I ageed with Rahm's suggestion that it may take both men stepping down in order to strike some sort of resolution. That is all.

Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on November 17, 2022, 03:29:18 PM
I’ve already shared my thoughts and beliefs on this.
A lot of personal bias for certain and my dealings with the tour at upper levels was professionally not something I view as positive.


But, when I played and dealing with stuff with students both in the USA and abroad, as good as the pga tour is, they did plenty to Piss off players and tournaments. 


Right now Honda has announced they’re leaving a long term event.  Not being chosen as an elevated event is one reason.
I talked with people at a number of events that felt  the tour turned their back on their events leaving long time communities to chase bigger purses.  Makes sense business and purse wise, but it also burned bridges.


Again, I’m not saying LIV is right (or wrong), I have my opinion.  But the tour has pissed of more than Greg Norman over the years, and some of their dealings have opened the door to rivals wanting to do something like this. 


Personally, my belief is that players will start chafing at the number of mandatory elevated events, non-elevated events will start to look at the value of not having the top players, and the have/have not on the players sides will create a lot of griping.


Other tours outside the tour will likely struggle with the US tour fighting for their own dominance in professional
Golf.







Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 04:17:00 PM

My comments are based on what's available in the media for public consumption on the subject, same as you or most anyone else here commenting on it. What makes what you have to say any more credible than anyone else who holds an opinion different from yours?
Here's what you're missing: I'm not out here making big proclamations about what someone SHOULD have done or shouldn't have done or whatever. You are. I'm commenting on some matters of fact — like that LIV doesn't deserve all of the credit for the increases in purses (etc.) on the PGA Tour (the new TV deal deserves a lot of credit there), that the LIV business isn't a rational one constrained by normal business practices, etc. You're commenting on all kinds of stuff, about most of which you haven't got the faintest clue.


I ageed with Rahm's suggestion that it may take both men stepping down in order to strike some sort of resolution. That is all.
That's an entirely different thing than what you said (he said).
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ken Moum on November 17, 2022, 04:24:50 PM
Pat, I can only imagine what it was like dealing with tour politics and policies when you were playing.  But that was under Beman wasn't it?  And he was a player.


Re. the new elevated events,  I can't understand why anyone thought that was a good idea, much less Tiger and Rory who apparently ramrodded it through.


The math is impossible.  Twelve required appearances plus four majors leaves no room for DP events, or much of anything.


The top players are not going to be out there 25-plus weeks a year.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 17, 2022, 04:48:21 PM

My comments are based on what's available in the media for public consumption on the subject, same as you or most anyone else here commenting on it. What makes what you have to say any more credible than anyone else who holds an opinion different from yours?
Here's what you're missing: I'm not out here making big proclamations about what someone SHOULD have done or shouldn't have done or whatever. You are. I'm commenting on some matters of fact — like that LIV doesn't deserve all of the credit for the increases in purses (etc.) on the PGA Tour (the new TV deal deserves a lot of credit there), that the LIV business isn't a rational one constrained by normal business practices, etc. You're commenting on all kinds of stuff, about most of which you haven't got the faintest clue.


I ageed with Rahm's suggestion that it may take both men stepping down in order to strike some sort of resolution. That is all.
That's an entirely different thing than what you said (he said).
Whatever, dude.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 04:54:30 PM
Whatever, dude.
Exaaaactly.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on November 17, 2022, 05:06:25 PM
Pat, I can only imagine what it was like dealing with tour politics and policies when you were playing.  But that was under Beman wasn't it?  And he was a player.


Re. the new elevated events,  I can't understand why anyone thought that was a good idea, much less Tiger and Rory who apparently ramrodded it through.


The math is impossible.  Twelve required appearances plus four majors leaves no room for DP events, or much of anything.


The top players are not going to be out there 25-plus weeks a year.


It was Finchem


Never dealt with a person I disliked more.


Very good for the business and political maneuvering for the tour.
But personally, I’ve only dealt with one person in my life I dislike more



Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 17, 2022, 08:43:06 PM
Pat, I can only imagine what it was like dealing with tour politics and policies when you were playing.  But that was under Beman wasn't it?  And he was a player.


Re. the new elevated events,  I can't understand why anyone thought that was a good idea, much less Tiger and Rory who apparently ramrodded it through.


The math is impossible.  Twelve required appearances plus four majors leaves no room for DP events, or much of anything.


The top players are not going to be out there 25-plus weeks a year.


It was Finchem


Never dealt with a person I disliked more.


Very good for the business and political maneuvering for the tour.
But personally, I’ve only dealt with one person in my life I dislike more


 Can you elaborate Pat?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Daryl David on November 17, 2022, 08:54:31 PM
You need to go back and read an earlier comment where I chastised Greg equally for bringing us to the place we're at.
No I don't. Greg and LIV were the disruptors here. They were the ones who "did" things to "professional golf."

He's as much to blame
More to blame. Greg + LIV.

He doesn't get a free pass from me as you seem all too willing to give to Jay.
Nope. I'm not giving Jay a free pass, I'm saying only that you don't understand things to the level needed to form a decent opinion. I haven't said Jay's done a great job. I haven't said Jay definitely shouldn't have taken the meeting. You're the one saying the opposite of those types of things. I'm only pointing out that you haven't really got a clue what you're talking about, and that the situation is far more complex than you're making it out to be from your armchair, and that some of your opinions have little or no basis in fact.

Again, as Jon Rahm suggested two days ago at a presser (and I pointed out in this thread yesterday) perhaps Greg and Jay should both step down to lower the tone and temperature of the conversaion and see if some type of agreement or resolution between the two groups can be made. Given the recent moves made by both sides, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
He didn't say "Greg and Jay should step down." He said:

Quote
[Greg Norman] “His intentions might not be as pure as they could, which is a problem,” Rahm said. “So he might not be the best person for the job, even if he has done great things for the tour. I do believe that, for conversations to take place, Greg might need to be gone. Right now, it doesn’t seem like he and [PGA Tour commissioner] Jay [Monahan] will want to be in the same room together.

“Even if they disagreed, it would have been good to talk. So to get a resolution we might need one or both of them gone. I hope not. Jay has done a great job for the PGA Tour.”
That's pretty different than "both should step down." He's suggesting that it MIGHT be required, while laying almost all of the blame on Greg and saying that Jay has done "a great job for the PGA Tour."


Blah blah blah. Point me to the ignore button, please.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 08:56:37 PM
Blah blah blah. Point me to the ignore button, please.
Great argument. Way to put some thought into it.

The ignore button here doesn't work, much like your brain.  ;D
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Daryl David on November 17, 2022, 09:04:32 PM
Blah blah blah. Point me to the ignore button, please.
Great argument. Way to put some thought into it.

The ignore button here doesn't work, much like your brain.  ;D


Thank you for pointing out my mental deficiencies. Real valuable GCA commentary.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on November 17, 2022, 09:14:09 PM
Pat, I can only imagine what it was like dealing with tour politics and policies when you were playing.  But that was under Beman wasn't it?  And he was a player.


Re. the new elevated events,  I can't understand why anyone thought that was a good idea, much less Tiger and Rory who apparently ramrodded it through.


The math is impossible.  Twelve required appearances plus four majors leaves no room for DP events, or much of anything.


The top players are not going to be out there 25-plus weeks a year.


It was Finchem


Never dealt with a person I disliked more.


Very good for the business and political maneuvering for the tour.
But personally, I’ve only dealt with one person in my life I dislike more


 Can you elaborate Pat?


 Very personal. I believe the way Finchem handled some issues (players association,WGC, retirement plan conversations) was a part of opening of doors for competitors.  Ironically, the threats (perceived or real) were always dealt with finding more money suddenly and throwing it at the players to brush things aside.


The supplemental retirement plan bonuses were questioned by a few players back in late 90’s, including me, and as far as I know, they were never answered.


Finchem was a great politician. That’s not a compliment. He gave long eloquent answers without ever answering, and with me, it became a matter of trust.


Beman was ruthless, but didn’t dance around things. Finchem peed on your shoes and said “nice rain isn’t it?”
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 17, 2022, 09:45:15 PM
Thank you for pointing out my mental deficiencies. Real valuable GCA commentary.
It contributed as much as your previous comment. Actually, a tiny bit more, since it informed that the "Ignore" functionality doesn't really do anything here. If it did, I wouldn't have to see your posts. It's on you to ignore… so, give it a try.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 17, 2022, 09:48:19 PM
Golf is the only sport where intelligence is a substitute for incompetence.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 18, 2022, 04:52:10 AM
As someone who doesn't play for any golf tour circuit, I really have nothing firsthand to offer, except my thoughts as a fan.


All I care about are majors. I don't care if someone plays in the Antartica league or the Ponte Vedra Beach league-it's how they step up to the plate at the majors that matters to me.


And, 72 holes no cut is way easier than the US AM, which I consider the fifth major. I'm just too stupid, I suppose, to understand the logic of why 72 holes and a cut determines who the best golfer is. No wonder I was rejected to Harvard for thinking that it's just an attempt for different golf tournaments to sell advertising.


One can talk about how OWGR dictates the field for big tournaments, an argument that I find circular and myopic.


I guess I'm confused why the Ponte Vedra Beach tour has such an outsized influence. No I'm not. It's just money.


I agree completely.  The majors are all that I care about.  I want to see the best players in the world, regardless of where they play for the rest of the season.   Trying to keep top players out, via whatever ranking system, only weakens the significance of the majors.


As for the rest of the season, i find network golf unwatchable without a DVR, and even then lacking in golf shot coverage.   LIV coverage is much more appealing as the ratio of actual golf shots to wasted time is way better.


I don't understand the hate/fear expressed by PGAT proponents.  Resistance to change, I guess.  The 54 hole argument is hard to understand.  Would 90 hole tournaments be even better?


I hope that both sides act a bit more mature.  Stop negative campaigns and name calling and find a way to coexist.  Competition is good and can only serve to improve the quality and popularity of the entertainment product.

The 54 hole, no cut, no tour qualifying system argument has merit because it makes comparing players more difficult and therefore the OWGR is less effective. However, that is not a valid reason to award zero points. At the end of the day the OWGR exists to rank golfers. It has no other purpose. Therefore, it should be a goal to consider all golfers eligible for ranking. Yes, it's messy, but the methodology has changed many times previously and will change in the future. I see no valid reason why, when it knows there are several very high quality LIV players, that it can't devise a new system which includes different tour set ups. It should be no skin off their nose if they are trying to rank players objectively. I can easily see a new system where LIV events are worth 25% (as an example) the points of a good US Tour event and worth maybe 50% of the poor events. Yes, it would make it difficult for LIV players to qualify for majors on points, but not impossible as is now the case and unreasonably so.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on November 18, 2022, 05:09:50 AM
Sean


Agreed, no good reason why a system can't be devised other than some of the stakeholders in the OWGR don't want to award LIV players points for their own commercial reasons.


In terms of your suggestion that they should get fewer points because of the tournament format, it brought to mind Rahm's comments in the last few days where he suggested it was ridiculous that the DP Tour event was getting less points compared to the PGA Tour event being played at the same time simply because the the PGA Tour event had more players. Rahm's point was that the DP event had 7 out of the world top 20 playing while the PGA event had none so was it not ridiculous that the DP event had fewer points.


Rahm's logic could be applied to awarding ranking points to the LIV Tour. 


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 18, 2022, 05:32:01 AM
Sean


Agreed, no good reason why a system can't be devised other than some of the stakeholders in the OWGR don't want to award LIV players points for their own commercial reasons.


In terms of your suggestion that they should get fewer points because of the tournament format, it brought to mind Rahm's comments in the last few days where he suggested it was ridiculous that the DP Tour event was getting less points compared to the PGA Tour event being played at the same time simply because the the PGA Tour event had more players. Rahm's point was that the DP event had 7 out of the world top 20 playing while the PGA event had none so was it not ridiculous that the DP event had fewer points.


Rahm's logic could be applied to awarding ranking points to the LIV Tour. 


Niall

Sure. In truth, the number of points should only be determined once the field is set. Predetermined points doesn't work well when tours are interconnected. And I hope tours become more fluid in this way if we can't have a true world tour. The more tours blend the more the less importance tours are.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 18, 2022, 09:00:51 AM
Davis Love III had the best point. Just get rid of OWGR......
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 18, 2022, 09:03:28 AM
I see no valid reason why, when it knows there are several very high quality LIV players, that it can't devise a new system which includes different tour set ups. It should be no skin off their nose if they are trying to rank players objectively. I can easily see a new system where LIV events are worth 25% (as an example) the points of a good US Tour event and worth maybe 50% of the poor events. Yes, it would make it difficult for LIV players to qualify for majors on points, but not impossible as is now the case and unreasonably so.
The simple answer here is that they don't meet the criteria, and even if they had, it has not been a year.

What's the point in having rules or criteria if you ignore them?

For all you know, after a year they'll say "okay, since you're 54 holes with no cut, we'll award 50% of the normal points owing to the fact that you're only 54 holes, cut that down to 40% because you don't have a clear qualifying criteria, cut awarding points off at the top 24 because that'll be like you had a cut, and since you've been around for a year now… you can start earning points."

Would that satisfy you, or do you want them to just say "okay, you don't meet several criteria, and you've been around for like six events, so here are your points?" and anything less will be unacceptable?

The LIV golfers knowingly went to a Tour which didn't meet the current criteria in many ways.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on November 18, 2022, 09:56:48 AM
Rules/criteria are there to be followed but they are also open to change and adaption which happens on a regular basis. Witness Rahm's comments on the latest changes. The reason for any changes are fairly obvious for anyone with an open mind and that is so that the Rankings can as accurately as they can reflect the order of the best players in the world.


For the best part of a year the LIV tour has become a reality and not only that has secured a fair chunk of the best golfers in the world. To not therefore change the rules to take that into account would not only be inconsistent with previous changes but would also make their rankings less relevant. ie. perhaps relevant only to the PGA Tour and DP Tour who in excluding LIV golfers from their tournaments have no need for LIV golfers to be ranked.


I'm not sure the organisers of the majors will put up with that for too long.


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 18, 2022, 10:14:36 AM
Rules/criteria are there to be followed but they are also open to change and adaption which happens on a regular basis.
So what's the timeframe for such a change? Because in the grand scheme of things, this hasn't been that long. The first LIV golf event was not even half a year ago. How quickly do you want them to rush something through?

Witness Rahm's comments on the latest changes.
Witness the DataGolf explanation of why the points worked out the way they worked out. And… the points are a result of a years-long process that resulted in a change not too long ago.

The reason for any changes are fairly obvious for anyone with an open mind
That's where you lose people, right there. You may as well just say "If you don't agree with me you're a moron."

I don't think they should rush into a change. They have criteria — criteria they've come to after decades of rankings — and the LIV stuff doesn't meet the criteria. And even if they meet them, or CHANGE the criteria, it's been five months.

So no, "open-minded" people can disagree with your opinion for valid reasons. And I see where you're coming from, I just don't agree with you on this matter of opinion. You, seemingly, can't see where anyone else is coming from… and so who is close-minded? Who here thinks their opinion is "correct" as if it's a math equation or a truth or a fact?

For the best part of a year
Their first event was June 9-11. June 11 was… quick math… 160 days ago.

To not therefore change the rules to take that into account would not only be inconsistent with previous changes but would also make their rankings less relevant.
How do you correlate that with the HERO or Target World Challenge and the changes it had to make to award OWGR points? Why didn't they just whine about it and make a similar argument as you've done here: "But, but, we're a no-cut 54-hole event with some of the best players, we should get points too!" No, they made changes to comply, including qualifying rather than invitations, and were awarded points.

And yet, oddly, LIV stans will point out that Tiger's event gets OWGR points, while simultaneously ignoring how similar they were to LIV events before they got points and that they changed so that they could get points.

I'm not sure the organisers of the majors will put up with that for too long.
Guess we'll see.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Steve Lang on November 18, 2022, 10:24:08 AM
 ;)   The code? You're pirates! Hang the code and hang the rules! They're more like guidelines, anyway.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Niall C on November 18, 2022, 11:07:23 AM
Rules/criteria are there to be followed but they are also open to change and adaption which happens on a regular basis. Witness Rahm's comments on the latest changes. The reason for any changes are fairly obvious for anyone with an open mind and that is so that the Rankings can as accurately as they can reflect the order of the best players in the world.


Erik


Having taken out the words that offend you, would you disagree with my comments above ?


With regards my best part of a year comment, they did announce the tour some time back in Feb/March but agree that LIV didn't hold their first event just under half a year ago. However given LIV signed-up a chunk of the best players early on, and continued to sign-up more, and that they have already announced big plans for next year, would you not think that would lead the OWGR people to look at redrafting the rules for next year ?


Niall
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 18, 2022, 11:29:08 AM
Having taken out the words that offend you, would you disagree with my comments above?
So you're asking if I disagree with:
The first is a statement of fact, as is the second depending on your definition of "regularly."

The third is a statement of fact, too, inasmuch as Jon Rahm commented on the OWGR. But he's not an expert in the OWGR, he's just someone with an opinion, and DataGolf have commented, too, but as their comments don't align with your opinions, you're largely ignoring those (their comments, paraphrased somewhat accurately I hope, are that while the points seem to be "off" at the top [with RSM getting too many], they're as far off in favor of the DP as you move down the leaderboard).

I disagree that the reasons for the change are "obvious" as that again implies that anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow blind to the "obvious," and the last relies on a presumption of the goals of the system, despite their stated goal as ranking the tours and leagues that are… and I forget their specific word, but basically "authorized" Tours.

I think LIV golf events may eventually get ranking points. They'll likely be small, in part because golfers will have seen their OWGR rank slip since as early as June, and because 30+ of the players on the Tour are pretty low anyway, and… I don't see them adding them retroactively.

So basically, you want them NOW and I think they'll eventually get them, despite not complying with the criteria, and that change will occur… just not as immediately as you want them to. And I'm fine with that… I just don't think they should get to bully their way into getting ranking points when they've done basically NOTHING to comply with the criteria, going so far as to make shit up.

You didn't answer my Hero line of discussion, either.

With regards my best part of a year comment
I didn't contest that. I only pointed out that your statement was misleading as their first event was less than a year ago.

However given LIV signed-up a chunk of the best players early on
I think you and I would disagree on who the "best" players are, or how many of the "best" players they have. LIV fields get pretty thin after a small number of players, and since they're busy playing these exhibition events… we have no way of really judging well they're playing right now. The more they play their insular events, the more we lack a valid frame of reference.


In other words:
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 18, 2022, 12:01:02 PM
However given LIV signed-up a chunk of the best players early on, and continued to sign-up more, and that they have already announced big plans for next year, would you not think that would lead the OWGR people to look at redrafting the rules for next year ?
Niall
There's little incentive for the OWGR to take action on this while they're being sued by LIV in the state of FL over this issue (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/) (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/)).

Had they wished to avoid being dragged into court they could have sat down with the powers that be at LIV and hammered out some type of points system, but they chose not to - perhaps under coersion from outside groups? Also named in the suit are the PGA Tour, DP World Tour and the Golf Channel. The complaint filed by LIV's attorneys alleges antitrust conspiracy and unfair trade, collusion and monopolization.

This combined with LIV's other lawsuits involving the PGA Tour and the U.S. Department of Justice investigation into antitrust conduct by the PGA Tour, among other notable golf organizations, does not bode well for its future going forward.

You can see what the LIV/Saudi strategy is and that's to tie-up the PGA Tour in as many lawsuits as possible and bleed the organization dry. It's all the more reason the parties involved - including the OWGR - need to sit down at the negotiating table and work out a mutual operating agreement that all sides can live with and honor. Unlke the PGA Tour, the Saudi's have deeper pockets and will bankrupt the PGA Tour, if necessary, to prove a point. In addition, the Saudi's have the Biden DOJ working on their behalf. If anyone thinks politics doesn't play a role in this you're fooling yourself. Look no further than the Biden administrations official statement released this morning saying Saudi Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman, should be granted immunity in the wrongful death lawsuit of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi, which completely contradicts the assurance of impunity he promised voters during the 2020 election.

Incredible the hoops some people will jump thru for increased oil production and cheap gas.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 18, 2022, 02:25:56 PM
Had they wished to avoid being dragged into court they could have sat down with the powers that be at LIV and hammered out some type of points system, but they chose not to
"Had LIV wished to award OWGR points readily, they could have hammered out some sort of agreement with the OWGR prior to launching their Tour, or at least complied with the criteria and waited a year for the certification."

Just because they were sued doesn't mean they're going to lose.

You can see what the LIV/Saudi strategy is and that's to tie-up the PGA Tour in as many lawsuits as possible and bleed the organization dry.
Uhhhhhh… okay? You are aware that the PGA Tour counter-sued LIV, right? So if (as it seems) in your mind, the party who is suing is right, this puts you in a real pickle.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-tour-countersues-liv-golf (https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-tour-countersues-liv-golf)


It's all the more reason the parties involved - including the OWGR - need to sit down at the negotiating table and work out a mutual operating agreement that all sides can live with and honor.
Maybe the OWGR doesn't negotiate with terrorists.

And that's a bit sensationalist on purpose, but basically… they have criteria, and the LIV folks haven't met them, and they've only been hosting events for less than six months, but in your opinion they need to sit down and meet with the folks suing them? The folks who are breaking a bunch of things, throwing tantrums and lying left and right, etc.?

THAT is the kind of opinion with which I disagree. I don't think the OWGR "needs" to do any such thing. The onus is more on LIV to meet the criteria or justify why they should not only be allowed to fail to meet a bunch of criteria, but also to approve the awarding of ranking points in a rushed timeline.
Unlke the PGA Tour, the Saudi's have deeper pockets and will bankrupt the PGA Tour
Oh boy.
If anyone thinks politics doesn't play a role in this you're fooling yourself.
But, wait, I thought the Saudis were aligned with Trump? I'm only poking here, as I couldn't care much less about politics (which is not to say there's not a political component here).
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David Cronan on November 18, 2022, 03:19:53 PM
There's little incentive for the OWGR to take action on this while they're being sued by LIV in the state of FL over this issue (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/) (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/)).


LIV isn't a plaintiff in the lawsuit you linked; rather, it's a class action lawsuit courtesy of Larry Klayman, who has his own wing in the Batshit Crazy Hall of Fame. Klayman does, in fact, represent Patrick Reed in a couple of lawsuits involving the PGA and LIV (which is the perfect partnership) but to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with LIV.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Mike Bodo on November 18, 2022, 03:24:38 PM
There's little incentive for the OWGR to take action on this while they're being sued by LIV in the state of FL over this issue (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/) (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/)).


LIV isn't a plaintiff in the lawsuit you linked; rather, it's a class action lawsuit courtesy of Larry Klayman, who has his own wing in the Batshit Crazy Hall of Fame. Klayman does, in fact, represent Patrick Reed in a couple of lawsuits involving the PGA and LIV (which is the perfect partnership) but to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with LIV.
Thanks for clarifying, David.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 18, 2022, 08:03:48 PM
Reeds lawsuit was tossed today. They have until 12/16 to refile.


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/liv-golf-news-patrick-reed-defamation-lawsuit-dismissed-750-million-florida-court/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/liv-golf-news-patrick-reed-defamation-lawsuit-dismissed-750-million-florida-court/)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 18, 2022, 08:33:52 PM
A little insight to the rankings.


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/eamon-lynch-owgr-dp-world-tour-jon-rahm/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/eamon-lynch-owgr-dp-world-tour-jon-rahm/)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 18, 2022, 09:11:11 PM
A little insight to the rankings.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/eamon-lynch-owgr-dp-world-tour-jon-rahm/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/eamon-lynch-owgr-dp-world-tour-jon-rahm/)
Yes, this (and Broadie) say what the DataGolf guys said:

Quote
The system introduced this summer ended institutional bias and endemic false accounting. Every player contributes points to a total that is disbursed by percentage. The winner of the RSM Classic is projected to receive 37 points, or 17.2% of the 215 total points available. The winner in Dubai should get 21.8, or 18.2% of the 121 points on offer.

“The current method recognizes that every player contributes to the strength of a field,” said Mark Broadie, the Columbia Business School professor who devised the algorithm. “The winner of the DP World Tour Championship has to beat 49 players, with 34 of those players ranked in the top 200. The winner of the RSM classic has to beat 155 players, with 68 of those players ranked in the top 200, a considerably tougher challenge.”

People minded to look for eye-opening wrinkles in the ranking system won’t be disappointed. For example, the man who finishes dead last in the no-cut tournament in Dubai is projected to receive more points than the bottom four finishers in Georgia, who will have beaten 90 guys to play the weekend. The line between imperfect and unfair is often a matter of perspective, and legislating against every such scenario is impossible.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pete_Pittock on November 28, 2022, 02:47:08 PM
Another defection from the PGA Tour to LIV. Per Golfweek, Mayakoba, the Greg Norman designed course will host an LIV event in 2023, dropping it's PGA Tour event.


Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomson?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 28, 2022, 02:59:39 PM
Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomsen?
Adam Scott and Jason Day would like a word. Cam Smith has been good for like a year at this point, and for a good chunk of 2022, we don't really know how good he was because he was playing against a good chunk of nobodies. Like at the Aussie tournament he just won… who knows? At any rate, Cam's been really good for only a short period of time. Let's slow our roll, eh? We'll see if it continues or if it's a short-term hot streak.

And Peter Thomson won one PGA Tour event… and a bunch of weak field British Opens. Adam Scott > Peter Thomson, I reckon.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 28, 2022, 03:01:48 PM
Why do only predominately brown sports play on Thanksgiving?  Hopefully the LIV will end this racist tradition.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pat Burke on November 28, 2022, 06:29:16 PM
A lot of talk about owgr and the tours getting points


Seems if we’re rating players, which is what they’re supposed to be doing, the event and field
Should matter most, not the tour it’s on.


The big tours want to keep LIV from this.  And they’ve already succeeded some.  Many of the LIV members rankings have gone down enough to impact the field values already, every month they can fight it impacts its more.


This isn’t about rules of OwGr. This is a battle for control
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 28, 2022, 06:34:24 PM
Norman has effectively cucked the PGATour. It’s time for Monahan to stop watching and negotiate a settlement before he is relegated  to cleanup.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Sean_A on November 28, 2022, 07:42:38 PM
A lot of talk about owgr and the tours getting points


Seems if we’re rating players, which is what they’re supposed to be doing, the event and field
Should matter most, not the tour it’s on.


The big tours want to keep LIV from this.  And they’ve already succeeded some.  Many of the LIV members rankings have gone down enough to impact the field values already, every month they can fight it impacts its more.

This isn’t about rules of OwGr. This is a battle for control

Exactly. It rather feels like the OWGR is mainly serving selected tours rather than trying to identify the best players. If the OWGR wants to be the premier ranking system it must be much quicker in reacting to the changing landscape of pro golf. What is the point of time delays when everyone knows some of the best players play on Tour which is excluded. Falling back on rules, most of which are questionable in terms of their absolute necessity in identifying the best players, is not serving to identify the best players at this moment in time.

Ciao
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 28, 2022, 07:58:04 PM
Exactly. It rather feels like the OWGR is mainly serving selected tours rather than trying to identify the best players.
Oh geez. The OWGR's governing board:

Quote
GOVERNING BOARD
Chairman - Peter Dawson CBE
Augusta National Golf Club - Will Jones, Executive Director
PGA European Tour - Keith Pelley, Chief Executive
PGA of America - Seth Waugh, Chief Executive Officer
PGA Tour - Jay Monahan, Commissioner
The R&A - Martin Slumbers, Chief Executive
USGA - Mike Whan, Chief Executive Officer
International Federation of PGA Tours - Keith Waters

Of course the OWGR is set up to help the TOURS. The LIV Tour hasn't even come remotely close to meeting the conditions set forth by the OWGR.

If the OWGR wants to be the premier ranking system
It isn't? What is, then? What's the competition? What's the "premier ranking system" ahead of the OWGR?

it must be much quicker in reacting to the changing landscape of pro golf.
No, it "mustn't." Clearly.

What is the point of time delays when everyone knows some of the best players play on Tour which is excluded.
By their own freaking choice.

Falling back on rules, most of which are questionable in terms of their absolute necessity in identifying the best players, is not serving to identify the best players at this moment in time.
Oy.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 28, 2022, 08:45:43 PM
A lot of talk about owgr and the tours getting points


Seems if we’re rating players, which is what they’re supposed to be doing, the event and field
Should matter most, not the tour it’s on.


The big tours want to keep LIV from this.  And they’ve already succeeded some.  Many of the LIV members rankings have gone down enough to impact the field values already, every month they can fight it impacts its more.

This isn’t about rules of OwGr. This is a battle for control

Exactly. It rather feels like the OWGR is mainly serving selected tours rather than trying to identify the best players. If the OWGR wants to be the premier ranking system it must be much quicker in reacting to the changing landscape of pro golf. What is the point of time delays when everyone knows some of the best players play on Tour which is excluded. Falling back on rules, most of which are questionable in terms of their absolute necessity in identifying the best players, is not serving to identify the best players at this moment in time.

Ciao


As DL3 said recently, “why do we even need the OWGR”?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 28, 2022, 08:49:25 PM
Erik, not trolling you, asking a question. In your opinion what purpose does the OWGR really serve? How do they help the tours? It started in 1986.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on November 28, 2022, 09:45:34 PM
Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomsen?
I don't know, but he spent a good chunk of 2022 beating nobodies at events like the Tournament of Champions, Players, and Open Championship, so its hard to say how good he was this year.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Pete_Pittock on November 28, 2022, 10:04:52 PM
Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomsen?
Adam Scott and Jason Day would like a word. Cam Smith has been good for like a year at this point, and for a good chunk of 2022, we don't really know how good he was because he was playing against a good chunk of nobodies. Like at the Aussie tournament he just won… who knows? At any rate, Cam's been really good for only a short period of time. Let's slow our roll, eh? We'll see if it continues or if it's a short-term hot streak.

And Peter Thomson won one PGA Tour event… and a bunch of weak field British Opens. Adam Scott > Peter Thomson, I reckon.
Erik,

I was attempting to troll Greg Norman and had to pick an Aussie who preceded him. Those weak field The Open fields included Player and Palmer. Nicklaus won his first the year after Thomson won his last.  And Peter won 9 Senior Tours the year he turned 55. But you make a good point including Day and Scott in the discussion.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on November 28, 2022, 10:15:57 PM
Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomsen?
I don't know, but he spent a good chunk of 2022 beating nobodies at events like the Tournament of Champions, Players, and Open Championship, so its hard to say how good he was this year.


4 individual pga tour wins and 4 DP wins. Not to shabby. He was the only player I was disappointed to see go to LIV. I watched a YouTube show where they interviewed him and toured his house. He came off as just a great level headed kid. Hated to see Rory lose the British Open but the kid was very impressive. I look forward to seeing him in May at Oak Hill. Hell of a lot better than Norman under pressure. 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on November 28, 2022, 11:19:07 PM
I don't know, but he spent a good chunk of 2022 beating nobodies at events like the Tournament of Champions, Players, and Open Championship, so its hard to say how good he was this year.
Do you think Scottie Scheffler will continue to play at his level, or do you think either or both of them (Scottie/Cam) got hot for awhile?Brooks was hot for a few years. Jason Day hasn't done much lately. Etc.They could all come back, too, sure. But…

I was attempting to troll Greg Norman and had to pick an Aussie who preceded him.
Okay. Fair enough.

Those weak field The Open fields included Player and Palmer.
1954 - No Player, No Palmer
1955 - No Player, No Palmer
1956 - Player, No Palmer
1958 - Player, No Palmer
1965 - Player WD, Palmer
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on January 16, 2023, 06:56:53 PM
Oh no Greg…


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/01/14/lynch-saudis-dodging-us-court-huge-liv-golf-impact/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/01/14/lynch-saudis-dodging-us-court-huge-liv-golf-impact/)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on January 16, 2023, 07:16:36 PM
Oh no Greg…


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/01/14/lynch-saudis-dodging-us-court-huge-liv-golf-impact/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/01/14/lynch-saudis-dodging-us-court-huge-liv-golf-impact/)


The second Kool-Aid joke came too quickly.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 17, 2023, 11:06:26 AM
Given LIVs chances of prevailing in this lawsuit are slim to none...they may as well move along.

At this point they'll probably have better luck just embracing the rogue/bad boy image, as they've basically poached all the villains anyway according to Harry Higgs. https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-took-all-the-villains-pga-tour-pro (https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-took-all-the-villains-pga-tour-pro)

They should make their own majors, encourage players like Brooks and BDC to have public spats, have phil continue to disparage everyone, and basically go full Alpha Betas from Revenge of the Nerds...and their fans will no doubt eat it up.

At least they would be they authentic...
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David Cronan on January 17, 2023, 05:29:08 PM
Slightly OT, but looks like LIV has a TV Deal....


https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network (https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: JLahrman on January 17, 2023, 07:28:18 PM
Slightly OT, but looks like LIV has a TV Deal....


https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network (https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network)


Will it draw more viewers than Gossip Girl and Hart of Dixie reruns? What do the bookmakers say?
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Daryl David on January 17, 2023, 07:31:55 PM
Slightly OT, but looks like LIV has a TV Deal....


https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network (https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network)


Will it draw more viewers than Gossip Girl and Hart of Dixie reruns? What do the bookmakers say?


Does it matter?  What do you think the viewer numbers will be for the Amex this weekend?  Right up there with Gossip Girl, I assume.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on January 17, 2023, 07:55:08 PM
As long as people who watch do so out of choice instead out of habit golf will move forward. The brainwashed network afternoon nap viewership has done the game no favors.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on January 17, 2023, 08:08:01 PM
Slightly OT, but looks like LIV has a TV Deal....

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network (https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network)
Yes, a rev share (still not confirmed but…):

Quote
A source told SI that the initial deal would be a revenue-sharing arrangement –without a rights fee being paid. But for LIV Golf, that is a better outcome than the various reports that it could pay Fox Sports to have its broadcasts on FS1 or FS2.

We'll see.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Max Prokopy on January 17, 2023, 09:29:36 PM
Given LIVs chances of prevailing in this lawsuit are slim to none...they may as well move along.

At this point they'll probably have better luck just embracing the rogue/bad boy image, as they've basically poached all the villains anyway according to Harry Higgs. https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-took-all-the-villains-pga-tour-pro (https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-took-all-the-villains-pga-tour-pro)

They should make their own majors, encourage players like Brooks and BDC to have public spats, have phil continue to disparage everyone, and basically go full Alpha Betas from Revenge of the Nerds...and their fans will no doubt eat it up.

At least they would be they authentic...


Amateur question, which you perhaps are not the right person to answer, but since the PGA Tour counter-sued, can LIV simply walk away from this? 
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: A.G._Crockett on January 18, 2023, 08:21:38 AM
Slightly OT, but looks like LIV has a TV Deal....


https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network (https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network)


Literally, reading this article was the first time I had ever even heard of the CW Network. And I have Sling, Netflix, Prime, and Paramount+, among others, so it’s not like I’m living in a cave.


I’m sure there is some way I could watch it, but this strikes me as about as small of a “TV deal” as there could possibly be.  Which makes me suspect that ALL other options have been exhausted.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: JLahrman on January 18, 2023, 09:12:15 AM
Slightly OT, but looks like LIV has a TV Deal....


https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network (https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network)


Will it draw more viewers than Gossip Girl and Hart of Dixie reruns? What do the bookmakers say?


Does it matter?  What do you think the viewer numbers will be for the Amex this weekend?  Right up there with Gossip Girl, I assume.


I have no idea on any of that, I don't even know which tournament the Amex is. But no it doesn't really matter, the goal for LIV is certainly not profitability and therefore its TV ratings do not matter. But we'll see what happens. Cobra Kai started out on YouTube Red, after all.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Rob Marshall on January 18, 2023, 09:21:29 AM
Next announcement is going to be Mito......That adds a lot. Who won't tune in now?



Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 18, 2023, 12:48:41 PM
Slightly OT, but looks like LIV has a TV Deal....


https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network (https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-on-verge-of-announcing-tv-deal-with-cw-network)

Literally, reading this article was the first time I had ever even heard of the CW Network. And I have Sling, Netflix, Prime, and Paramount+, among others, so it’s not like I’m living in a cave.

I’m sure there is some way I could watch it, but this strikes me as about as small of a “TV deal” as there could possibly be.  Which makes me suspect that ALL other options have been exhausted.


AG,

I suspect you may have been, because its been around for over 15 years now.  But it is a minor network that usually airs lower budget content, and the target audience is typically a young demographic.

Either way thou, I don't see much crossover between its typical viewership and those who watch LIV, but I guess that remains to be seen.

P.S.  Max, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if LIV drops its suit, the PGATour would drop its counter-suit soon after.
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: David Cronan on January 18, 2023, 03:40:16 PM
Looks like Patrick Reed's Kraken Attorney is upset....


https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/patrick-reed-lawyers-threaten-cnn-with-dollar450m-lawsuit (https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/patrick-reed-lawyers-threaten-cnn-with-dollar450m-lawsuit)
Title: Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
Post by: John Kavanaugh on January 18, 2023, 03:47:52 PM
Looks like Patrick Reed's Kraken Attorney is upset....


https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/patrick-reed-lawyers-threaten-cnn-with-dollar450m-lawsuit (https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/patrick-reed-lawyers-threaten-cnn-with-dollar450m-lawsuit)


The WITB of the author of the piece made me happy.