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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Derek Holland on September 09, 2022, 10:21:56 AM

Title: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Derek Holland on September 09, 2022, 10:21:56 AM
Tried to do a search but didn't see anything posted. If it already has been, my apologies.


https://www.traverseticker.com/news/the-return-of-high-pointe-golf-club/?fbclid=IwAR3OC73hizima4Xx_ZaIZpz6jDUbYz3ZOjx5fBND_rD4gaOJhmfKOV4eAHg (https://www.traverseticker.com/news/the-return-of-high-pointe-golf-club/?fbclid=IwAR3OC73hizima4Xx_ZaIZpz6jDUbYz3ZOjx5fBND_rD4gaOJhmfKOV4eAHg)
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: David Wuthrich on September 09, 2022, 12:13:28 PM
That would be great news!


Great that Tom is involved!
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Noah Jurik on September 09, 2022, 01:26:29 PM
I never got the chance to play it, but Mr. Doak graciously agreed to show me around the property last spring. The land is incredible! I'm very excited about the prospect of a great course being resurrected in my hometown. Here's a photo of #11 green from April '21.
(https://i.imgur.com/0jhGEhG.jpg)
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Steve Lang on September 09, 2022, 02:24:38 PM
Noah,


Were you flying a drone?  Any other lower altitude shots to give more perspective there or elsewhere on the old back 9?


Aerial view is fairly benign versus standing on 11's tee, knowing the elevated table top green awaits your shot.


Can't wait to see something in two years...  I hope the locals who supported it in the past get a reasonable shot at access in the future!   



Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 09, 2022, 02:56:40 PM
I have been laying low on this because we have to get a zoning change from Acme Township, and they can be difficult on such things.  There's a public hearing next week, and we'll have a better idea where we stand.


The client's name is Rod Trump, and you would have thought that any publication worth its salt would use the headline "Trump hires Doak to resurrect High Pointe".  But no!
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: DFarron on September 09, 2022, 04:56:12 PM
Congrats! Michigan just keeps getting better for golf…
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Mike Sweeney on September 09, 2022, 06:51:55 PM
I have been laying low on this because we have to get a zoning change from Acme Township, and they can be difficult on such things.  There's a public hearing next week, and we'll have a better idea where we stand.


The client's name is Rod Trump, and you would have thought that any publication worth its salt would use the headline "Trump hires Doak to resurrect High Pointe".  But no!


You had me at "Acme Township". :)



Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Greg Hohman on September 09, 2022, 08:45:27 PM
It’s not too late to rename the thread “Trump hires Doak to resurrect High Pointe.”
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Brett Meyer on September 10, 2022, 06:18:45 AM
I remembered hearing at some point in the past that there were plans to add a third nine at High Pointe. If that's correct, is this new nine to the east on that land or was that different land? If it's the same land, is it the same routing?

It's hard to see the details on the routing map, but it looks like this routing incorporates the pond from the old 18th hole. I didn't mind the old 18th hole but it was brutal if you didn't hit a good drive. It looks like this version does away with the weak part (the drive) and keeps the strong part (the shot over the pond) and I wonder what Tom thinks about having a second take on this hole if I'm seeing it correctly.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 10, 2022, 10:33:32 AM
I remembered hearing at some point in the past that there were plans to add a third nine at High Pointe. If that's correct, is this new nine to the east on that land or was that different land? If it's the same land, is it the same routing?

It's hard to see the details on the routing map, but it looks like this routing incorporates the pond from the old 18th hole. I didn't mind the old 18th hole but it was brutal if you didn't hit a good drive. It looks like this version does away with the weak part (the drive) and keeps the strong part (the shot over the pond) and I wonder what Tom thinks about having a second take on this hole if I'm seeing it correctly.


Hi Brett:


I did a plan for a third nine holes in 1988, but the owners never pursued it beyond that.  Somehow I still managed to save a copy of that routing for all those years - even though I remembered it pretty well, too.  I thought at the time that part of the land [east of the original clubhouse] would be a better fit with the back nine than the front nine was, and when we started discussing the new project, I volunteered that we could build 18 holes behind the hops farm without tearing up much of the crop.  And, yes, I'm using the same routing for those nine holes . . . I did another version last winter but didn't like it as much as my original take.


The original 18th hole was very frustrating to most players, partly due to a wetland delineation that I hadn't predicted correctly.  So, indeed, I'm happy to get it out of there.  In fact, the original 16th-17th-18th are all changing, as I can eliminate the long walk from 15 to 16 by building two new holes south of 11-14.


There were some really good holes on the old front nine, too, but I do think the new version will be better for eliminating the two weakest holes on the original course.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Colin Macqueen on September 10, 2022, 10:53:40 AM
Good news! A foundling returns! This could be the high point of Tom's career!
Cheers Colin
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Steve Lang on September 10, 2022, 04:55:44 PM
 8)  Maybe even a "Masterpiece" contender!
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on September 11, 2022, 03:18:33 AM
Would love to remove it from my NLE (No Longer Exists) category!!
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Noah Jurik on September 11, 2022, 10:30:11 AM
Noah,


Were you flying a drone?  Any other lower altitude shots to give more perspective there or elsewhere on the old back 9?


Aerial view is fairly benign versus standing on 11's tee, knowing the elevated table top green awaits your shot.


Can't wait to see something in two years...  I hope the locals who supported it in the past get a reasonable shot at access in the future!


Here's a shot of #10 from the ground



(https://i.imgur.com/MPdQ3np.jpg)
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on September 11, 2022, 10:40:29 AM
Seeing those pictures is like looking at a corpse. I played HP half a dozen times. It was much more affordable than its neighbor across the street, less penal, and more fun. It took a couple of plays to appreciate it because it was unlike most of the courses I had played at that time.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Mike Schott on September 11, 2022, 08:45:01 PM
This is great news as I played the original 4-5 times before it's demise. The front 9 was my favorite as the land was more links like as opposed to the more isolated holes of the back. I'm sad that it will be private though as I doubt I will be afforded the opportunity.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Jim Franklin on September 12, 2022, 09:09:22 AM
I have been laying low on this because we have to get a zoning change from Acme Township, and they can be difficult on such things.  There's a public hearing next week, and we'll have a better idea where we stand.


The client's name is Rod Trump, and you would have thought that any publication worth its salt would use the headline "Trump hires Doak to resurrect High Pointe".  But no!


Hot Rod Trump comes to the rescue. Tell him I said hi. He was a BCC guy for many years before he moved to Florida.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Brett Meyer on September 12, 2022, 09:57:25 AM
Hi Brett:


I did a plan for a third nine holes in 1988, but the owners never pursued it beyond that.  Somehow I still managed to save a copy of that routing for all those years - even though I remembered it pretty well, too.  I thought at the time that part of the land [east of the original clubhouse] would be a better fit with the back nine than the front nine was, and when we started discussing the new project, I volunteered that we could build 18 holes behind the hops farm without tearing up much of the crop.  And, yes, I'm using the same routing for those nine holes . . . I did another version last winter but didn't like it as much as my original take.


The original 18th hole was very frustrating to most players, partly due to a wetland delineation that I hadn't predicted correctly.  So, indeed, I'm happy to get it out of there.  In fact, the original 16th-17th-18th are all changing, as I can eliminate the long walk from 15 to 16 by building two new holes south of 11-14.


There were some really good holes on the old front nine, too, but I do think the new version will be better for eliminating the two weakest holes on the original course.


Hi Tom,

Thanks for the response. Interesting to go back to a routing that you did over 30 years ago. Is it gratifying or frustrating to find that you can't improve on the work of your younger self? ;D

I'm curious: I'm assuming 18 was one, but what did you think the other weakest hole in the original 18 was? There were several on both the front and back nine that I liked more than others, but there wasn't one other than 18 that stood out as questionable. Maybe 9?

In any case, I'm glad that the 13th green will exist again. I thought that was the biggest loss to the golf world in losing the course.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Carl Rogers on September 12, 2022, 10:08:35 AM
Raining on the parade .... What will be different about HP 2.0 that may insure its long term success?
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 12, 2022, 10:30:00 AM
Raining on the parade .... What will be different about HP 2.0 that may insure its long term success?


A different business model, and stronger financial backing.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Carl Rogers on September 13, 2022, 08:57:11 AM
Raining on the parade .... What will be different about HP 2.0 that may insure its long term success?

A different business model, and stronger financial backing.


Sorry TD, did not read the article

National Membership seems the way to go.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Steve Lang on September 13, 2022, 11:13:18 AM
 8)  for those interested in the nuances of Master Planning Commission submissions like in Acme Township, here's a link to Minutes of their meetings, need to go about half way through to see the details addressing High Pointe's "Resurrection"


https://www.acmetownship.org/uploads/2/4/3/0/24300134/9.12.2022_pc_packet.pdf





Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 13, 2022, 12:16:57 PM
8)  for those interested in the nuances of Master Planning Commission submissions like in Acme Township, here's a link to Minutes of their meetings, need to go about half way through to see the details addressing High Pointe's "Resurrection"


https://www.acmetownship.org/uploads/2/4/3/0/24300134/9.12.2022_pc_packet.pdf (https://www.acmetownship.org/uploads/2/4/3/0/24300134/9.12.2022_pc_packet.pdf)


The meeting was last night.  It seemed to go well, I don't think the planning commission is opposed to the project generally, but they want more plans for it than most local agencies request, so we won't have approval for a couple of months.  So excuse me while I go draw a cart path plan!
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Mark Smolens on September 13, 2022, 06:45:56 PM
8)  for those interested in the nuances of Master Planning Commission submissions like in Acme Township, here's a link to Minutes of their meetings, need to go about half way through to see the details addressing High Pointe's "Resurrection"


https://www.acmetownship.org/uploads/2/4/3/0/24300134/9.12.2022_pc_packet.pdf (https://www.acmetownship.org/uploads/2/4/3/0/24300134/9.12.2022_pc_packet.pdf)


Didn't see any details addressing HP resurrection. Interesting that there's two spellings for "marihuana". Learn something new every day...
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 13, 2022, 07:29:34 PM
Mark,

It all starts on Page 33, and the plan itself starts on Page 62.  I love the sub-heading "Reincarnation..." as opposed to Resurrection   ;D

P.S.  Not sure if it was pointed out before, but looks like about 1/2 of the holes will be brand new on a new parcel.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Richard Hetzel on September 14, 2022, 06:39:21 AM
I played High Pointe, it was a very fun golf course that rounded out a perfect 36 hole day with Arcadia Bluffs. You can't beat Northern Michigan golf in the summer.


This is great news.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Brett Hochstein on September 21, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
This is really awesome to hear on a number of levels.  Two questions:


Tom, will you be building this all yourself with a D3 as you did with the original?


and


Will the plan be to have it fine fescue and play as fast as legend describes? Unfortunately, it was way too thatched up and spongy when I finally got to play it as a Kingsley intern in 2006, but staff and others would talk about how crazy High Pointe played back in its early years before succumbing to resort-clientele pressure.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 22, 2022, 07:05:43 PM
This is really awesome to hear on a number of levels.  Two questions:


Tom, will you be building this all yourself with a D3 as you did with the original?


and


Will the plan be to have it fine fescue and play as fast as legend describes? Unfortunately, it was way too thatched up and spongy when I finally got to play it as a Kingsley intern in 2006, but staff and others would talk about how crazy High Pointe played back in its early years before succumbing to resort-clientele pressure.


Question 1:  No, I've got a little more talent to help me than I did in 1987, especially Brian Slawnik who lives in Traverse City, and Don Placek and Bruce Hepner who have both volunteered to help.  But we are starting with six greens that I DID shape and don't intend to change much, and I did shape a couple of greens in New Zealand this winter to get back into the swing of doing it.


Question 2:  Well that's mostly a myth; High Pointe was never as firm and fast as The Loop and Kingsley are today.  It started getting thatchy pretty fast because they never did much to mitigate that.  I don't know who the superintendent is going to be if it happens, but the client loves the playing surface at Kingsley so I hope we will do fescue and try to keep it that firm.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Richard Hetzel on September 22, 2022, 08:22:37 PM
I think that I took these around 2008.
(https://i.ibb.co/6B220z9/DSCF4180.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dgSS4FC)(https://i.ibb.co/6PN3tKx/DSCF4181.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xj3pgn0)
(https://i.ibb.co/WWCtZFb/DSCF4182.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yn2St5w)
(https://i.ibb.co/BNyvRMt/DSCF4183.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dp9mn2t)
(https://i.ibb.co/pPTRF8D/DSCF4184.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CtyMGZd)
(https://i.ibb.co/YkrRvrd/DSCF4185.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zRknKk2)
(https://i.ibb.co/WHwCGN4/DSCF4186.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PrnkFsv)
(https://i.ibb.co/BPpJcjr/DSCF4187.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VN1GJDQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/qyk7dHn/DSCF4188.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TvmYkQT)
(https://i.ibb.co/CVTG71Z/DSCF4189.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RQVw0vm)
(https://i.ibb.co/6yRLDYK/DSCF4190.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S6XGVNk)
(https://i.ibb.co/Qd1wZhj/DSCF4191.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M630bK5)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tw02ns3/DSCF4192.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S6my1zC)
(https://i.ibb.co/cwQKpTf/DSCF4194.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qCpL41q)
(https://i.ibb.co/zhzy971/DSCF4196.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Rk3912)
(https://i.ibb.co/P4K21v8/DSCF4198.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y8m5fFG)
(https://i.ibb.co/VpXnYCS/DSCF4199.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n8hdM1c)
(https://i.ibb.co/N1qG2PM/DSCF4200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6vSq0xk)
(https://i.ibb.co/wpGpDJf/DSCF4201.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kqbqY3t)
(https://i.ibb.co/BPmnGrg/DSCF4202.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcSmtLQ)
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Peter Flory on September 27, 2022, 02:35:29 PM
This is just one of those things that should happen for the sake of history.  I'm glad that RTrump is making the investment and I'm sure that it's going to work out well. 
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Brett Hochstein on September 27, 2022, 07:43:29 PM
This is really awesome to hear on a number of levels.  Two questions:


Tom, will you be building this all yourself with a D3 as you did with the original?


and


Will the plan be to have it fine fescue and play as fast as legend describes? Unfortunately, it was way too thatched up and spongy when I finally got to play it as a Kingsley intern in 2006, but staff and others would talk about how crazy High Pointe played back in its early years before succumbing to resort-clientele pressure.


Question 1:  No, I've got a little more talent to help me than I did in 1987, especially Brian Slawnik who lives in Traverse City, and Don Placek and Bruce Hepner who have both volunteered to help.  But we are starting with six greens that I DID shape and don't intend to change much, and I did shape a couple of greens in New Zealand this winter to get back into the swing of doing it.


Question 2:  Well that's mostly a myth; High Pointe was never as firm and fast as The Loop and Kingsley are today.  It started getting thatchy pretty fast because they never did much to mitigate that.  I don't know who the superintendent is going to be if it happens, but the client loves the playing surface at Kingsley so I hope we will do fescue and try to keep it that firm.


Tom, thanks for the reply.


The first question I knew the likely answer, but it had to be asked! Sounds like a good team of locals set to the task. If you need an additional former (state) local for a portion, let me know  :)


It doesn't surprise me to hear the mythology regarding the original conditions. Luckily though people's tastes have changed just enough (at least at a niche level) where you should be able to re-acheive fast and firm and actually keep it for awhile. Should be very fun to play.




On another note, it is interesting to trace back the tree clearing a few years.  In 2006 I remember the back nine being quite wooded and was almost having a hard time recognizing the much more barren land today.  Is this related to the current ownership and these restoration intentions?



Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 28, 2022, 09:57:00 AM
A good friend and long term scratch player who lived in MI for many years raved about the original course when I mentioned it had disappeared but could soon be coming back to life.
atb
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 28, 2022, 11:14:03 AM
it is interesting to trace back the tree clearing a few years.  In 2006 I remember the back nine being quite wooded and was almost having a hard time recognizing the much more barren land today.  Is this related to the current ownership and these restoration intentions?


The original 10th and 15th holes were cleared through hardwoods; holes 11-14 were in fairly open, rolling, sandy ground which had been planted with small pines for erosion control purposes [which is a property tax abatement strategy].  On those holes, we cleared the trees by wrapping a chain around them and yanking them out of the ground with a bucket loader on the front of an old tractor.


But, I failed to yank the trees in between the holes, and in a matter of a few years they got too big and too costly to clear, and my original client thought that playing between trees was what people from downstate liked, so he left them.  I loved the more open look we had to start.


At some point after the course closed, someone came in and harvested the trees in between the holes -- I don't know whether it was before the land was sold off, or done by the farm.  But I am certainly not going to miss the trees between 11 and 14.  Seeing across those holes is magic.


We did also lose a few big hardwood trees [mostly maples], especially at the 12th hole, which died almost immediately after the course closed.  I think they must have gotten used to having irrigation water, and couldn't take the shock when it was turned off.
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Kyle Casella on September 12, 2023, 11:47:27 AM
I recently came across the Instagram account for the revived High Pointe. The progress videos are really well done and beautifully shot. Looks like things are really coming along quickly.


https://www.instagram.com/highpointegolf/ (https://www.instagram.com/highpointegolf/)
Title: Re: The Return Of High Pointe
Post by: Michael Chadwick on February 28, 2024, 02:13:06 PM
Rod Trump and his creative team have done a wonderful job documenting and sharing HP's construction process on Instagram. I've found myself returning to their public profile repeatedly to scroll through reels that feature green sites, quick hole by holes, before/after's, etc. to get a better sense of the new course.


One characteristic I wanted to point out, to serve as both question/observation, regards the bunkering. From the images I've seen of Te Arai North, my impression is that there's a prevailing style of deeper, cavernous bunkers at a higher frequency than what may be found on Tom's earlier designs. The bunker walls tend to be in fairway turf, or more native rough, pending their location, and the sand lies more along the bottom than being flashed vertically. Their depth conjures similarities to UK bunkers, where the steepness of a revetted wall often enacts a half or full stroke penalty.


Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the shaping of the dirt and early grow-in images at High Pointe, but I sense a similar continuation of that style. And I think it suits the topography quite well.


Holes like 1, 3A, 4, 6, 7, 12, 17 appear to have deeper bunkers with walls that will be turfed in fairway fescue.
5, 8, 9 will utilize native textures to edge the bunkers. 9 may also have more flashing given how perched up that original green site is.
2 might have the most shallow bunkers?
And a few freer flowing, amoeba-like shapes can be found on 12, 13, and likely elsewhere, but it's used sparingly by the looks of it.


I suppose my question, if you want to chime in, Tom, would be--what what went into your process for deciding on how to bunker High Pointe, particularly with the new original holes and how they'd tie into the preexisting ones?


Other initial takes, based on my visit last summer and subsequent club updates--holes that immediately strike me include the 3rd with its two greens for a variable par 3; 4's approach and green complex seems bold and fascinating; 7 and 8 (original 10) are spectacular and routed over the most dramatic land; the low tee on 14 might be more fun than the back tee because of how blind the fairway is from down low; a big hump in front of 16 green adds nice flavor to the re-imagination of old 18; and 16-18 in general seem to be a stout finish!


I'm personally fond of that part of Michigan, with native textures and flora likely similar to what'll be seen at Sedge Valley in Wisconsin. It's certainly special to get another fescue course in America, notwithstanding all the other great stories attached to High Pointe coming back.


Look forward to more updates come spring and early summer from the club.