Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ally Mcintosh on August 30, 2022, 07:08:16 AM
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I ask the question having only seen a handful of his courses. But my rationale is as follows:
In essence, one of the major differences between Tom's designs and the generation that preceded him is detailing. Sure, he works with a different philosophy (firm, fast, fescue, width) and style (naturalism / minimalism) than the vast majority of that generation... But it is his mastery of the detailing in the build that truly separates him. A lot of those 80's / 90's / 00's designs by other architects almost seem lazy in the simplicity of their broad slopes and shapes by comparison, even if this is often a function of as-building to technical construction drawings on poor soil.
Through all the work I've seen from his team, the detailing never looks awkward or manufactured with Tom's designs. It is almost impossible to tell what was built and what was not at St. Patrick's for example. I can't say the same for other designers' work, even someone like Gil Hanse at Narin & Portnoo.
To detail eighteen holes so intricately whilst keeping everything looking natural with nothing out of place is a true art, especially when that detailing marries such strong playing strategies....
....However, to do this on a reversible 36 holes on a course playing from different angles is truly mind-blowing.
The Loop is spectacular: Restrained, utterly comfortable and confident in its own skin, great golf from start to finish. I have never been more impressed by a golf course. Ever. I mean that literally.
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The Loop is spectacular: Restrained, utterly comfortable and confident in its own skin, great golf from start to finish. I have never been more impressed by a golf course. Ever. I mean that literally.
Wow.
That is high praise indeed-given what you've seen not only of Tom's work, but other courses as well.
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I am unbelievably impressed by The Loop as an architectural achievement. I was intentionally not looking around much on the first day and it paid off with me recognising probably half the greens for the approaches the second day. The Loop is an easy place for me to like because of restrained bunkering and width. Didn't lose a ball in two days. I can't say either course is brilliant, but as a well executed concept the whole of The Loop is astonishing. I understand if Tom would want it ranked as total package.
Ciao
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Playing with Ally and Sean last week, The Loop was the pivot around which our whole trip was planned.
It is an astonishing feat of land planning. There isn't a square yard that feels committed to one routing over the other. We played Black, followed by Red and one could easily believe these are two separate courses adjoining one another. The simplicity of the teeing grounds, marked only by a single small flag, was beautifully understated. They disappear as soon as the flag is removed, becoming a subtle, flat section of fairway.
It is the green designs and surrounds contouring that works magnificently well. Getting them to work from multiple angles is genius. I'd watched the NLU guys suffer hard around the greens, but we didn't struggle like they did. We suspect it was less firm than it can be. One thing that did resonate quite literally is the 'Thump'. I've never heard ground make that kind of noise before. It echoes like a drum.
The one annoyance is the rowdy retail golfers and the loud music blaring from the carts. Everyone is having a good time, but the constant beats were grating.
Our host Eric has played The Loop more than 300 times and continues to find it fascinating and novel. After one play each way I can see that there was still much to discover in the complex green designs.
It takes a very confident architect to be so restrained with the featuring. Nothing is overt or showy and as Sean says, there are few individual stand out moments. Unlike Sean, I did turn around a few times to preview what was coming the next day and I felt that was part of the fun of it. I was expecting to be impressed, but I came away amazed.
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Thanks for posting these comments.
The more I read the more curious and fascinated I am about the idea of reversible courses. And where they could potentially take the game in the future.
Atb
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To follow on from Robin’s comments, I was firstly amazed at how all 36 of the greens worked, both visually and from a playing standpoint.
One of the clever things I noticed was that there was often bold mounding used in the approach areas to create chutes and strategy from one direction that then - looked at from side on - tied in to the green complex to make it appear much more grade level from the other direction (be it 90, 120 or 150 degrees). This masked - aesthetically - the mostly pushed up nature of the green sites and blended them in to the landscape.
The second thing that surprised me was the absolute absence of any visible tees or erroneous features from the “other” routing. I was expecting to see some tees hidden in the rough / forest that were only used one way round and were superfluous to the other. But each and every teeing ground was completely hidden as subtle pads within the confines of the fairways and short grasses, impossible to highlight as not in use when playing the opposite way.
All of that aside, the course was to my tastes in subtlety, landscape and shaping in any case. I would be delighted to play at either one of the eighteens every day of the week. To think that there are two different courses completely hidden within the one is quite wonderful.
EDIT: One thing not yet mentioned is that this is NOT a flat course. There is some really good macro-contouring in the land, another aspect that adds to the quality, makes each routing very different and must have made the job of creating 36 workable holes even more difficult.
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I had the good fortune to meet up with Ally, Robin and Sean and play tour guide while watching the genius of the Loop dawn on them--delightful.
Ally, the first time I played Pacific Dunes I thought it was a masterpiece, and then for me Ballyneal almost surpassed PD the first time I played it. So if you haven't played those, I recommend trips to Oregon and Colorado before you make up your mind about which one you think is the creme de la creme. If the Loop still comes out on top for you, no argument from me.
I certainly second your thoughts on how well the greens work in both directions. I actually think of them as just 18, in part because it's simpler to process, and in part because I've hit enough shots through greens that I stand over the ball and think "dammit, I made bogey from here yesterday." ;D And for example, if you play in "The Dual" on the 31st of May, July, or August, you play both the Red and the Black in one day and see the same pins in the morning and afternoon rounds. On those days you might see the same putt twice while marveling that this morning you putted for a birdie 2 and in the afternoon you've got the same tester for a bogey 5!
Each routing works so well from tee to green and has such a diversity of challenges and features that some days you think the Black is your favorite, and some days it's the Red. The old cliche applies--"just came off 18, and can't wait to play it again."
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Eric,
I would throw Rock Creek in that conversation with Ballyneal and Pac Dunes having played all 3. All different, but all nothing short of terrific, they would be 1a, 1b, and 1c in no particular order. If the loop is better than all of those, then that is something amazing for sure.
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A mischievous thought. I wonder if one day someone will build a reversible course but not tell anyone it’s reversible. And then on opening day the tee markers are in different spots and the players are suddenly playing the course the other-way-round to what they expected!
Atb
PS - a question, is it likely feasible to route a course such that’s playable in three or even four different directions?
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Eric,
Great to meet you and thanks for talking us round The Loop on both days.
(& Kalen),
I have no doubt that Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal and Rock Creek are all excellent to great courses. Hence that is why I am asking the question in the title of those that have played a lot of Tom’s courses.
But at the same time, I have a sneaking suspicion that those courses would just meet my - albeit very high - expectations.
As a feat of architecture, The Loop surpassed what I was hoping for. And I was hoping for a lot. As Robin stated above, the whole trip was hinged around seeing The Loop (and that despite the fact we also had three World Top 50 courses on the agenda). And it still far exceeded what I was expecting.
I’m not sure there’s another architect working today who could have pulled it off with such panache. The confidence shown in all the design decisions won the day. Most architects would struggle to either dial back the boldness / features or at the other end of the spectrum, be so restrained that they created something bland.
It may not be the best course in the world (but then again, why not?) but I stand by what I said above. I have never been more impressed.
I’d be interested to hear from others who have played The Loop along with more than a handful of Tom’s other courses.
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A mischievous thought. I wonder if one day someone will build a reversible course but not tell anyone it’s reversible. And then on opening day the tee markers are in different spots and the players are suddenly playing the course the other-way-round to what they expected!
I actually told our client that’s what I wanted to do with The Loop - not tell anyone it was going to be reversible until Opening Day - mostly because I didn’t want to have to answer questions about it for two years. It’s much better to demonstrate than to explain!
Alas, he only managed to keep the secret for a couple of weeks.
To pull it off, I think you’d have to not tell the client, but you’d be running the risk that he didn’t want to use it that way.
Incidentally, the Dual was my idea (although I didn’t come up with the name). I suggested it to keep things square on the calendar, so that golfers would know by the date (odd or even) whether they were playing Black or Red.
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Eric,
I would throw Rock Creek in that conversation with Ballyneal and Pac Dunes having played all 3. All different, but all nothing short of terrific, they would be 1a, 1b, and 1c in no particular order. If the loop is better than all of those, then that is something amazing for sure.
Kalen,
I gather Ally is making the argument that The Loop is "a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship" (Google defn. of "masterpiece"). Works for me!
There certainly have been plenty of pointless arguments around here concerning whether this course is better than that one, and I plead guilty of that by bringing up the other courses. We don't have to pick one. Maybe The Loop would be 1d on your list?
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Incidentally, the Dual was my idea (although I didn’t come up with the name). I suggested it to keep things square on the calendar, so that golfers would know by the date (odd or even) whether they were playing Black or Red.
That's smart.
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Last Summer I got around both the Black and the Red twice. My second round on the black, as a single with the last tee time of the day, afforded me time to spend chipping and studying each green complex. Black 6/Red 12 Green is unlike anything I’ve seen. I also have a soft spot for Black 11/Red 7 Green. (I would imagine that Black 17/Red 2 receives the most ink/opinions.)
The presentation of the course is what initially surprised me the most. I catch myself daydreaming that my local courses were blessed with such fast and firm characteristics.
However, the actions of my playing partners were the most surprising. With no usual framing of tee boxes and secondary rough boundaries of the fairways the cart traffic left a negative impression on me. I realize this has nothing to do with Doak’s design, but it was an odd sight to see carts parked next to (and on) greens; often I would notice carts parked directly on the green approach for tomorrow’s routing. Aesthetically this was not pleasing.
The only other nitpicking I would offer is that the green to tee walks/transition were burdensome. I believe this is the case because when after holing out, the next corridor/fairway begins immediately; its right there in front of you (because this is the approach for the next days routing). I had a desire to peg the tee right there next to the hole (like the original rules of golf) and thus begin playing, but those walks to the little tee marker often left me thinking the routing could be more ‘compressed.’ (I had initially thought that the tees would be 90 degrees from the previous green, but it seemed the slight majority were 60 yards down the fairway, albeit slightly skewed to one edge of the fairway)
Overall, it’s a unique design with no other peers (Silvies Golf in Oregon seems to be a different concept); and therefore, I have a difficult time labeling it a masterpiece. Its hard to label a one of one as a masterpiece. (I do think green complexes are exceptional)
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Ally & Erik,
After reading your latest comments, we may be talking about two different concepts here.
1) The Loop - Its greatness in terms of devising and implementing a one-of-a-kind reversible course that plays fantastic. A unique feat of outstanding golf course architecture from top to bottom.
VS
2) Courses like Pac Dunes, RC, or Ballyneal where one is evaluating the overall quality of the golf course using say the Doak Scale. As I see it they are all solid 9s and I'm not seen anyone claim The loop is a 9 or a 10 for that matter, but perhaps that's your case.
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Kalen,
Semi-correct. When evaluating The Loop, I am looking at the complexity of the architecture that Tom and team needed to deal with (now that I am reading reviews which I had previously avoided, I see Tom mentions that the routing wasn’t particularly hard which possibly reinforces my point about the detail).
However, the course (either way around) is completely to my tastes: Restrained, clever architecture over subtle really firm land without too much ostentatious “show”. It is quite possible that I would also prefer the course (as opposed to the architecture) more than Ballyneal or Rock Creek CC… who knows? Does anyone else?
Charlie,
I agree that the walks are noticeable in places but only - as you correctly state - because you are walking over short grass fairway. They are not long. The only one I slightly questioned was the Red 4 / Black 15 corridor which houses two par-3’s when the separation between the two greens seemed more suited to a short par-4 or maybe two.
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Kalen,
I note that Tom and Ran modestly assigned The Loop a Doak 7 in the last version of The Confidential Guide, whereas Rock Creek, Pacific Dunes, and Ballyneal get 9s or 10s from the Guide reviewers. I'd say The Loop is a Doak 8, "worth a special trip to see," evidenced (at least) by Ally, Robin and Sean building a trip around it all the way from the UK, and your suggestion that it's a one of a kind course that plays fantastic. I would give the latter compliment to Ballyneal too.
Charlie and Ally,
Note that #4R is one of the better and fun-to-play Redans you'll find. If the tee was closer to #3R, or off to the right of that green it might be super-long Redan or a par 4 with a Redan-ish green--or you could build a different green! Maybe you'll play the back tee on each next time? My experience is the placement of that corridor is about ideal--both par 3s work well in the flow of both routes.
Charlie, note Tom's assignment was to build a walking-only course. The carts came ~2yrs after opening, unfortunately. You didn't say when you visited, but in 2021 the resort got GPS-enabled carts that can be programmed with "restricted areas" that helps keep yahoos away from the greens. Not pure walking, but better than carts with no restrictions.
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Played the Loop last year. Absolutely loved it and thought it was pure genius. Have played numerous courses in Ireland and thought the turf played as close to Ireland as I have played in the US.
Would have never been able to play it if not for carts. Spoke w the starter about allowing carts and he related that the owner asked the super if they could try carts and see if the turf would hold up. They did and it did.
I believe that golf should be a walking sport. But for those that condemn their use realize that u too will hopefully age. I am 71 w an awful back - arthritis, spinal stenosis, herniated disc. I am no longer able to walk and play golf.
I only wish that more of the destination courses - Bandon, Cabot, Sand Valley would allow carts. Yes, you can get a cart w a medical certificate, but often only for yourself. Must take a caddie, making the cost prohibitive, especially since my wife also requires a cart (two knee replacements).
If the Loop can allow carts w out significant turf damage why can't others? I would propose allowing carts for those over 60, no questions asked...
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If the Loop can allow carts w out significant turf damage why can't others?
These kinds of questions often come with major red flags because they are based in the false premise that one site’s ability to do something means that every site has that ability. “Why can’t…” inherently puts the responder on the defensive.
Every site is different and this includes management, budget, growing season length, turf varieties, design, and usage/traffic.
What percentage of rounds at The Loop are walking v. riding? How does that change in September and October?
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Played the Loop last year. Absolutely loved it and thought it was pure genius. Have played numerous courses in Ireland and thought the turf played as close to Ireland as I have played in the US.
Would have never been able to play it if not for carts. Spoke w the starter about allowing carts and he related that the owner asked the super if they could try carts and see if the turf would hold up. They did and it did.
I believe that golf should be a walking sport. But for those that condemn their use realize that u too will hopefully age. I am 71 w an awful back - arthritis, spinal stenosis, herniated disc. I am no longer able to walk and play golf.
I only wish that more of the destination courses - Bandon, Cabot, Sand Valley would allow carts. Yes, you can get a cart w a medical certificate, but often only for yourself. Must take a caddie, making the cost prohibitive, especially since my wife also requires a cart (two knee replacements).
If the Loop can allow carts w out significant turf damage why can't others? I would propose allowing carts for those over 60, no questions asked...
Cliff, you bring up very valid questions.
As a professional at a walking only course, I deal with this daily-especially during outings.
When you say a caddie with a cart is "cost prohibitive" is that because they charge you for the cart as well?
I can make an argument for no fee for the cart, especially as they will be very limited anyway, and therefore a minimal revenue source, as well as something being provided for medical reasons.
But surely you would expect to pay for a caddie at a walking only facility?
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The nature of Tom’s design at The Loop almost required major areas of turf around tees and greens. None of the courses at Bandon have the same kind of turf areas around tees and greens. Trails is very tight in places, with the only way for golfers to get to the path to the next tee requires walking across the green. To accommodate carts, there would have to be a major paradigm shift in where they have vegetation other than mown turf and they would have to do major cart path work. As Kyle says, the ability of one site and design to work well with carts doesn’t mean that other sites are equally able.
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I am relying on my memory which is probably not a good thing. I recall being told by one of the destination courses that you must get a single cart with a caddy and pay for the cart and the caddy. So in my instance it would require payment for two carts and two caddies.
Also, A caddy is not typically required at the destination courses if you are walking. Yet, if you are ‘disabled’ you must have a caddy with the cart….That being said I do not want to hijack Ally’s thread…
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Cliff,
The starter's suggestion that damage from cart traffic on The Loop is not "significant" is probably an accurate characterization. However, there is discernible damage. Particularly when there's a dry period, cart tracks show up in the fescue fairways and golfers are admonished to steer carts to the center of the fairways, because that's where irrigation water is applied. And there are some points where damage can't be avoided. The other day I noticed that between the 17B tee and fairway, which happens to be where a good 2R second shot can be placed, there's a pinch point that unavoidably gets a lot of cart traffic. It's noticeably different from areas that don't get so much traffic, and I would guess that's a sore spot for the capable staff that maintain the course.
It's great that you were able to play the course and enjoyed it.
Kyle,
My observation (don't have the data) is the season-round percentage of cart players doesn't vary too much, and it's in the range of 85-95%. September is a high-volume month, October not so much. The season this year is May 5 - Oct 16.
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Played The Loop once in each direction. Played the original course once.
Would return and play The Loop twenty times (10x each direction) against zero for the original course. The original course holds no interest for me, when contrasted with The Loop.
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Played The Loop once in each direction. Played the original course once.
Would return and play The Loop twenty times (10x each direction) against zero for the original course. The original course holds no interest for me, when contrasted with The Loop.
Wow. A bit harsh!
The Weiskopf course is the perfect complement to The Loop.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
They’re even more astute about generating engagement.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine. But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score. I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.
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Kyle, I don't think that it's harsh in the slightest.
There was nothing about the OG that impressed me in the slightest. Nowhere is there a rule book or slab of commandments that appoints one to appreciate courses outside their field of enjoyment.
I believe that the l∞P is a wonderful playground. I would return and play it, the new par three course, and the putting course.
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Played the Loop last year. Absolutely loved it and thought it was pure genius. Have played numerous courses in Ireland and thought the turf played as close to Ireland as I have played in the US.
Would have never been able to play it if not for carts. Spoke w the starter about allowing carts and he related that the owner asked the super if they could try carts and see if the turf would hold up. They did and it did.
I believe that golf should be a walking sport. But for those that condemn their use realize that u too will hopefully age. I am 71 w an awful back - arthritis, spinal stenosis, herniated disc. I am no longer able to walk and play golf.
I only wish that more of the destination courses - Bandon, Cabot, Sand Valley would allow carts. Yes, you can get a cart w a medical certificate, but often only for yourself. Must take a caddie, making the cost prohibitive, especially since my wife also requires a cart (two knee replacements).
If the Loop can allow carts w out significant turf damage why can't others? I would propose allowing carts for those over 60, no questions asked...
I’m sympathetic to your comments, Cliff, especially as I get older, but why should we expect to be physically able to play any course we want? Most of us must accept without question that there are certain private courses we’ll never have the money or connections to play. Is this really any different? It is a sport, after all.
Bethpage is my home course. The Black course does not allow carts and, as a result, I play it less and less as the years go by. That’s fine by me. I’d never dream of expecting them to allow carts. I had my time. And there are courses throughout the world I’ll never have a chance to play while I’m upright. So it goes.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine. But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score. I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.
If Sean, Robin or Ally (and some others) suggest to me a course is worth playing I listen hard and make a mental note to try and get there one day.
As suggested above NLU and others of a similar ilk have differing aims and priorities and the extent to which I pay attention to what they have to say is adjusted accordingly.
While its logistically unlikely I would love visit the Loop one day. The whole concept intrigues me. Hopefully, fingers crossed, nudge, nudge, wishful thinking, something like it might one day happen in the U.K.
Atb
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Finally a tipping point that I can get my hands around. NLU subscription canceled. Words have consequences.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Finally a tipping point that I can get my hands around. NLU subscription canceled. Words have consequences.
I find the NLU guys generally amusing as retail blogging golfers go... but JK , I can't believe you subscribed to their content offerings! ... so please advise, are you cancelling Buffalo Golfer too because Ron M didn't like the Forest Dunes Weiskopf course?
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine. But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score. I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.
If Sean, Robin or Ally (and some others) suggest to me a course is worth playing I listen hard and make a mental note to try and get there one day.
As suggested above NLU and others of a similar ilk have differing aims and priorities and the extent to which I pay attention to what they have to say is adjusted accordingly.
While its logistically unlikely I would love visit the Loop one day. The whole concept intrigues me. Hopefully, fingers crossed, nudge, nudge, wishful thinking, something like it might one day happen in the U.K.
Atb
Somewhat ironically then, it was NLU's Tourist Sauce YouTube video that prompted me to plan this trip. That and Eric Anders Lang Adventures in Golf offering.
Doubtful we will ever create something of this ilk anew in the UK. This concept needs a sandy site and unless some of the abundant military land on sand becomes available I can't see where else it is possible.
The channels and vales that feed into the greens at The Loop only work if the ground is hard and running. The concept would be wholly inferior if it were soft, receptive ground.
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The channels and vales that feed into the greens at The Loop only work if the ground is hard and running. The concept would be wholly inferior if it were soft, receptive ground.
Robin:
I am not so sure of that. Construction in sand is always easier, certainly, but Tom Simpson did several reversible projects [on a smaller scale] on what were surely not sandy sites. You can create an awful lot of interest just with the variety and dual orientation of the greens.
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Tom
Point taken, although if he were in the south of the UK where I am there is a chance he did have sand to work with, but even so, clay gets rock hard in the summer, so behaves in the same way, firm and fast.
I thought I detected a nod to Painswick 16 on Black 3, but that may just be my wishful thinking!
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To detail eighteen holes so intricately whilst keeping everything looking natural with nothing out of place is a true art, especially when that detailing marries such strong playing strategies....
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Some time ago I suggested he was an artist here. The dude denied it! Go figure.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Seems to me that watching those guys is a big waste of time. I couldn't stand more than a couple of their episodes.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
The No Laying up guys all have terrible short games for their handicap. They continually miss the mark on courses that require a lot of short game creativity including a lot of Doak courses.
That said, my personal opinion is that Doak prioritises short game interest to the extent that a lot of approach shots become difficult to the point where criticism is valid so I don’t think the NLU guys are completely wrong.
If Doak ends up having a defining course my prediction is it will be a pitch and putt course with holes between 30 and 60 yards where playability meshes perfectly with a micro undulations.
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I haven't played the Loop but for architectural achievement Stone Eagle is hard to beat. If you look at the land it was built on and the unbelievable visuals on the course I consider Stone Eagle TD' s best work and the best course design in all of Palm Springs area.
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My observation (don't have the data) is the season-round percentage of cart players doesn't vary too much, and it's in the range of 85-95%. September is a high-volume month, October not so much. The season this year is May 5 - Oct 16.
That's amazing that a course can start out as walking only (meaning very walkable) and yet once carts are allowed virtually everyone rides. One of the many fails of the American golf industry in the last 50 years is how they have turned the vast majority of golfers into cart jockeys.
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My observation (don't have the data) is the season-round percentage of cart players doesn't vary too much, and it's in the range of 85-95%. September is a high-volume month, October not so much. The season this year is May 5 - Oct 16.
That's amazing that a course can start out as walking only (meaning very walkable) and yet once carts are allowed virtually everyone rides. One of the many fails of the American golf industry in the last 50 years is how they have turned the vast majority of golfers into cart jockeys.
Don't forget a lot of folks are on vacation... (and yes its an easy walk, all you need are 6-7 clubs in a small bag and a handful of balls)
The golf industry has also turned golfers into victims of fashion, and donkeys carrying 14 clubs, a dozen+ balls, a bag of tees, cell phones, music boxes, gps, and range finder paraphernalia, plus food & beverage supplies,... a vehicle definitely helps.
I think its too early to call any living gca's course a masterpiece, but the Loop may be in contention.
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Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine. But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score. I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.
I know little about architecture, but from what I do know I didn't think I would ever come across a more interesting result as Royal Worlington. The Loop surpasses this and then some. Five courses and over a week later I am still thinking about The Loop.
BTW, nothing to do with Tom, but I like Meadowbrook a load.
Ciao
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BTW, nothing to do with Tom, but I like Meadowbrook a load.
Well of course you do. You love Huntercombe and that was Andy’s principal inspiration for that project.
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I absolutely, positively LOVE The Loop. It was my last pre-pandemic golf vacation, and I loved every shot in both directions.
I was fortunate enough to have been there 2 years before it opened, but the course was under construction. I remember seeing the bunker on #1 (black?) thinking about it's tremendous size and visual impact. Sure enough, I as I played my approach, that same bunker was laughing at me, daring me to fly it to the green beyond.
From there, the 2 days at The Loop were never-ending fun.
But alas, the secret is out. I tried 3 times to arrange a road trip from Philly, but their lodging was sold out. Reminded me a bit of my favorite, Bandon Dunes, in 2000, before it became well known, crowded, and expensive.
Forest Dunes is a special place - the staff was always great, the cost was reasonable.
PS - The original course is a very nice contrast to The Loop. It's not The Loop - it doesn't try to be that type of golf course. But it was fun enough that we played it 3 times the first visit and once after playing The Loop in each direction. It most certainly is a golf course that should be enjoyed.
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Have the enjoyment of playing three reversible courses - St Andrews, Silvies Ranch and The Loop. I think The Loop is the best because it was purposely designed over a landform that was conducive to the project, plus it is truly reversible. There is an art to design and one would be hard pressed to argue about any hole at The Loop as to which was the primary design and what was modified to adapt to the condition of reverse play.
Yesterday I read a music essay on Daily Kos which parallels this question
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/9/4/2120830/-Let-s-talk-about-music-especially-one-hit-wonders-and-Dan-Fogelberg?utm_campaign=spotlight.
The Loop is unique and a masterpiece but that cannot detract from the other works produced. Pacific Dunes and Rock Creek Cattle Company are exemplary for the landform and the opus. (PD is in my "backyard" and RCCC was deemed "on the way" from home in
Portland to Sagebrush
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My observation (don't have the data) is the season-round percentage of cart players doesn't vary too much, and it's in the range of 85-95%. September is a high-volume month, October not so much. The season this year is May 5 - Oct 16.
Wait, you are saying 85-95% carts vs. walking on The Loop?
If so, good grief.
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When we played there was only one other group walking that we could see. The rest of the field was riding, often with loud music blaring out of the cart.
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When we played there was only one other group walking that we could see. The rest of the field was riding, often with loud music blaring out of the cart.
Even pulling up to a green with two carts and two songs competing with each other as we are teeing off just beside…. Honestly don’t see the attraction…. At all
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Most unfortunate about the music...carts r one thing blaring music another. We live in an era of non stop noise pollution. From doctor's offices to restaurants to shopping a constant barrage of intrusive music - pretty sure not Baroque or jazz...If Liv influences golf it will only be negative and music on the course is likely...
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When we played there was only one other group walking that we could see. The rest of the field was riding, often with loud music blaring out of the cart.
Even pulling up to a green with two carts and two songs competing with each other as we are teeing off just beside…. Honestly don’t see the attraction…. At all
Thanks for this thread guys.
I was very curious before it; became certain I should make the effort after reading this, and then CRASH! Two days of listening to other peoples music whilst outdoors playing golf. OMG!
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Tony,
It really wasn’t that bad. Only one incident of what I noted above and generally they were far enough away that we barely heard the music (plus it was because it was one particular group just behind us).
There were lots of moments of tranquility as well. It shouldn’t put you off.
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Tony,
It really wasn’t that bad. Only one incident of what I noted above and generally they were far enough away that we barely heard the music (plus it was because it was one particular group just behind us).
There were lots of moments of tranquility as well. It shouldn’t put you off.
This is not an issue just at daily fee courses in the US -- rude/morons everywhere. I'm fine if you want to play music but if you pull up to a close tee/green use the f'ing pause button or at least turn it down.
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Tony,
It really wasn’t that bad. Only one incident of what I noted above and generally they were far enough away that we barely heard the music (plus it was because it was one particular group just behind us).
There were lots of moments of tranquility as well. It shouldn’t put you off.
Ally's correct, you shouldn't let our comments deter you. It's a bit unlucky to draw a tee time playing directly in front of music-blaring cretins who, to say the least, care nothing about their fellow golfers' experience.
Possible tricks to avoid them:
- Try to tee off early--fewer people on the course by definition and The Loop's serenity really makes an impression in the early morning hours.
- There is often a lull in big groups teeing off on The Loop between 11:30am and 1:30pm, because visitors are often trying to play two rounds in one day, one on the Dunes course and one on The Loop, divided into tee times from 8-10am and 2-4pm.
- Friday and Saturday are often saturated with golfers, including the large Buddy Trip groups of 16-24, mostly riding and often blaring. If you can, schedule around those busy times. The downside of playing earlier in the week is that the course is typically top-speed fast late in the week due to maintenance routines.
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Can a course be considered an architect's masterpiece if it is not one of the top 3 he built? I've not heard a lot of people say the Loop is better than Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, St. Andrews Beach, Tara Iti, Rock Creek, St. Patricks, etc. I'm not really sure what "masterpiece" means in this context, but it's hard for me to square that adjective for the Loop against several Doak courses that I would prefer to play.
That being said, I'll agree with everyone that the Loop is incredible and it's fascinating to see how the course works in both directions and how different holes play into the same greens. And I'll also generally agree with the NLU complaint that the course is unforgiving. They make the claim that "good shots are not rewarded" and I would agree with that (I know the rebuttal, I guess it wasn't a good shot then). If I had to boil my feeling down, it's that the slopes rarely seem to help a ball. They are much more likely to repel it. Compared to other rumpled courses like St. Andrews where it feels like you get to watch your ball randomly feed to the hole as much as away from the hole.
If I lived within driving distance, I'd love to visit every year. But to me, it is not Doak's masterpiece because there are a few other courses he's built I'd rather play.
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Can a course be considered an architect's masterpiece if it is not one of the top 3 he built? I've not heard a lot of people say the Loop is better than Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, St. Andrews Beach, Tara Iti, Rock Creek, St. Patricks, etc. I'm not really sure what "masterpiece" means in this context, but it's hard for me to square that adjective for the Loop against several Doak courses that I would prefer to play.
I haven't seen the Loop so I have no dog in this fight, but as we know the most important factor governing the ultimate quality of a golf course is the land on which it sits, it seems clear to me that it is perfectly possible for a course to be its architect's greatest achievement without actually being his best course.
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Can a course be considered an architect's masterpiece if it is not one of the top 3 he built? I've not heard a lot of people say the Loop is better than Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, St. Andrews Beach, Tara Iti, Rock Creek, St. Patricks, etc. I'm not really sure what "masterpiece" means in this context, but it's hard for me to square that adjective for the Loop against several Doak courses that I would prefer to play.
I haven't seen the Loop so I have no dog in this fight, but as we know the most important factor governing the ultimate quality of a golf course is the land on which it sits, it seems clear to me that it is perfectly possible for a course to be its architect's greatest achievement without actually being his best course.
Cha ching. A design can be great and result is an ok course.
Ciao
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Can a course be considered an architect's masterpiece if it is not one of the top 3 he built? I've not heard a lot of people say the Loop is better than Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, St. Andrews Beach, Tara Iti, Rock Creek, St. Patricks, etc. I'm not really sure what "masterpiece" means in this context, but it's hard for me to square that adjective for the Loop against several Doak courses that I would prefer to play.
That being said, I'll agree with everyone that the Loop is incredible and it's fascinating to see how the course works in both directions and how different holes play into the same greens. And I'll also generally agree with the NLU complaint that the course is unforgiving. They make the claim that "good shots are not rewarded" and I would agree with that (I know the rebuttal, I guess it wasn't a good shot then). If I had to boil my feeling down, it's that the slopes rarely seem to help a ball. They are much more likely to repel it. Compared to other rumpled courses like St. Andrews where it feels like you get to watch your ball randomly feed to the hole as much as away from the hole.
If I lived within driving distance, I'd love to visit every year. But to me, it is not Doak's masterpiece because there are a few other courses he's built I'd rather play.
My experience was very different. I thought both courses were very playable for my level of 15ish handicap...even from tees that were slightly too long to gain the max enjoyment. The courses were fairly firm and fast, but not overly so...close to ideal condition. Generally speakng, there is plenty of off the tee. I played with Ally who routinely hit greens pin high and I think he is about a 4 capper that probably played tees a bit too short to really test him. I don't recall thinking that any of the holes or shots were simply beyond my capability. The courses are a constant test at the greens, but nowhere near ott because there are few bunkers and no water. I reckon with a few plays I would know where not to go and where to go. If I had to compare The Loop to a course it would be Pinehurst 2.
I think the NLU boys played a special summer event known for jacking up the conditions. It's probably meant for very good and or Loop experienced golfers.
Ciao
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checkers, chess, 3-D chess.
Tom, where do you think the design process of The Loop falls in that scale, or more likely beyond?
P.S. When will loudspeakers be built into the green complexi? :P
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Adam and Sean, I agree with your point and think it's certainly possible. But it still feels like an unsatisfying resolution for the greatest achievement to be decent step below the greatest course. Though not surprising since we all know how a site dictates what can be achieved. Would this distinction be true for any other architects? Where their greatest achievement is no near their best course.
I also definitely don't think the course is over the top or there are any holes that are impossible. But it seemed very hard to hit the ball close in my 3 rounds there. Part of that is probably conditioning, as no one in North America is used to playing on wonderful firm turf and it can take awhile to adjust to it. I'd venture that handicaps would go up on the Loop if played regularly, but would love to see data on it.
Pete, they already have speakers built in at Forest Dunes! Though it's only on the par 3 course...
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Can a course be considered an architect's masterpiece if it is not one of the top 3 he built? I've not heard a lot of people say the Loop is better than Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, St. Andrews Beach, Tara Iti, Rock Creek, St. Patricks, etc. I'm not really sure what "masterpiece" means in this context, but it's hard for me to square that adjective for the Loop against several Doak courses that I would prefer to play.
I am uncomfortable using the word "masterpiece" to describe any of my courses . . . the Robert Trent Jones course at Treetops is marketed as "the Masterpiece" and it sounds very pretentious, so northern Michigan already has one of those. [oof]
Years ago, in a thread here, I suggested that every architect nominate three courses where his work is zealously preserved, rather than being subjected to numerous renovations and restorations. When I think about my own work, the first two courses that come to mind are not any of my "top 100" entries, but The Loop and St. Andrews Beach. St. Andrews Beach is the course I'd like to have in my backyard -- ironically it is in Mike Clayton's backyard -- and The Loop is something I'd dreamed about for a long time, but never thought I'd get to pull off. So, like Sean's lists, they are FAVORITE courses of mine, no matter what everyone else thinks are the BEST of my work. [And I'm not surprised at all than Sean shares this sentiment.]
What would my third entry be? Most likely, Pacific Dunes, because of its meaning to my career, and the fact that I've never wanted to change anything about it. Although most of the courses Joe Z name-checked would fall into that camp as well. Honestly, it's hard to believe that places like Stone Eagle and Cape Kidnappers don't even get a mention. I have lived a charmed life.
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Most unfortunate about the music...carts r one thing blaring music another. We live in an era of non stop noise pollution. From doctor's offices to restaurants to shopping a constant barrage of intrusive music - pretty sure not Baroque or jazz...If Liv influences golf it will only be negative and music on the course is likely...
I think LIV golf is an extension of Godwin's Law.
"Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law#cite_note-GL_FAQ-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law#cite_note-Godwin94-2) is an Internet adage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adage) asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison to Nazis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_comparison) or Adolf Hitler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) approaches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote) 1.[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law#cite_note-Godwin94-2)"
Thus it follows that as an online discussion on GCA grows longer, the probability of a LIV golf reference approaches 1.
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When we played there was only one other group walking that we could see. The rest of the field was riding, often with loud music blaring out of the cart.
Even pulling up to a green with two carts and two songs competing with each other as we are teeing off just beside…. Honestly don’t see the attraction…. At all
Thanks for this thread guys.
I was very curious before it; became certain I should make the effort after reading this, and then CRASH! Two days of listening to other peoples music whilst outdoors playing golf. OMG!
If carts are predominant ya pretty much have to put up with music on US public courses these days. A lot of hootin and hollerin as well.
Ciao
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BTW, nothing to do with Tom, but I like Meadowbrook a load.
Well of course you do. You love Huntercombe and that was Andy’s principal inspiration for that project.
Meadowbrook is comfortably better than Huntercombe. There are some terrific front to back greens.
Ciao
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I am uncomfortable using the word "masterpiece" to describe any of my courses . . .
I can't blame you for feeling this way, but maybe if we take the definition back to its original usage in the old European Guild system (with some expansions from there) it might make for an interesting discussion. By its original meaning the masterpiece was the piece that fully inaugurated you into the profession. It was like your senior thesis or maybe your bar exam. By this very strict definition there can only be one answer, in this case your first course. If we start to expand the definition a bit, from memory, the masterpiece wouldn't likely involve a case of working with the finest raw materials (but it wouldn't involve junk either, it was meant to test one's ability across a number of disciplines). So it would be a good but not great site, would have to be excellent work, and would have to be produced with far less assistance than what a typical full professional would get. Or I would argue, would evoke similar feelings in you to what you felt when your produced your very first work that you could call your own. Would the Loop qualify in any of these senses, or would something else be a better example?
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By its original meaning the masterpiece was the piece that fully inaugurated you into the profession. It was like your senior thesis or maybe your bar exam. By this very strict definition there can only be one answer, in this case your first course. If we start to expand the definition a bit, from memory, the masterpiece wouldn't likely involve a case of working with the finest raw materials (but it wouldn't involve junk either, it was meant to test one's ability across a number of disciplines). So it would be a good but not great site, would have to be excellent work, and would have to be produced with far less assistance than what a typical full professional would get. Or I would argue, would evoke similar feelings in you to what you felt when your produced your very first work that you could call your own. Would the Loop qualify in any of these senses, or would something else be a better example?
Well, by that definition, clearly my masterpiece was High Pointe. I was the only one on site who had ever built a golf course before, other than Neal Iverson the irrigation designer and installer.
Since then I pretty much always have had a lot more help. I guess I got similar feelings out of the three courses I named, so you're on the right track:
Pacific Dunes -- proving I could build a course at the highest level
The Loop -- making a concept work that I'd dreamed about
St. Andrews Beach -- which any of my crew will tell you, was my dream job in terms of speed and minimal change
Hopefully I get those feelings again if I get to rebuild High Pointe.
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Quick question (apologies if I missed it in the terrific responses):
Does playing the course in two directions affect the maintenance more or less than a standard course? I saw the parts about more playable ground around the greens and tees, but other than that, is there a significant difference versus a standard, one way course?
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Just saw Tom's last post, so another question:
What is the status of St Andrews Beach? Does it still exist? I remember doing a Google search awhile ago, and it seemed to still be around. Just curious.
I'm sad with my weird life that I haven't made it to any of Tom's courses other than Rawls, but I'm especially sad I haven't made it down under. For personal reasons, I feel a strong attachment.
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Most unfortunate about the music...carts r one thing blaring music another. We live in an era of non stop noise pollution. From doctor's offices to restaurants to shopping a constant barrage of intrusive music - pretty sure not Baroque or jazz...If Liv influences golf it will only be negative and music on the course is likely...
I think LIV golf is an extension of Godwin's Law.
"Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law#cite_note-GL_FAQ-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law#cite_note-Godwin94-2) is an Internet adage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adage) asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison to Nazis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_comparison) or Adolf Hitler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) approaches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote) 1.[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law#cite_note-Godwin94-2)"
Thus it follows that as an online discussion on GCA grows longer, the probability of a LIV golf reference approaches 1.
On the bright side, the chances of Greg Norman parachuting into the 18th green at the Loop (as he did at the LIV Boston event this past weekend) are hovering at right around zero..
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Quick question (apologies if I missed it in the terrific responses):
Does playing the course in two directions affect the maintenance more or less than a standard course? I saw the parts about more playable ground around the greens and tees, but other than that, is there a significant difference versus a standard, one way course?
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Just saw Tom's last post, so another question:
What is the status of St Andrews Beach? Does it still exist? I remember doing a Google search awhile ago, and it seemed to still be around. Just curious.
Hi George:
Last question first: St. Andrews Beach is thriving under new ownership as a popular, reasonably-priced public course. It's had some of its thunder [and even its Gunnamatta name] stolen by our redesign of the Ocean course at The National close by, but it's good enough that when we had the Renaissance Cup at The National, and played St. Andrews Beach the day before -- after playing Royal Melbourne the day before that! -- there were still people coming up to me at the event buzzing about how much they liked St Andrews Beach.
As to your question about maintenance, one downside of a reversible design is that you have to have more area of maintained turf, because if you were hitting over native stuff off the tee on one hole, it would be on the approach the next day. At The Loop it is almost continuous turf . . . if you started on the first tee of the Red course, you could putt your ball all the way to the 3rd green . . . the only real breaks are at the par-3 holes where you are sometimes playing a par-3 either way over some native stuff. [We did add a break on the par-4 8th Red just for variety's sake.]
So, if I recall correctly, there is something like 33% more irrigated turf at The Loop, compared to my other courses. This would be cost-prohibitive [or at least raise the green fee significantly] with certain types of turf being used on fairways . . . you wouldn't want to turn Winged Foot or Congressional reversible at the level of maintenance they expect. But with fescue fairways, it doesn't add that much to the overall cost. The same would be true of St Andrews Beach, by the way . . . Bermuda that goes dormant part of the year is not so expensive for additional fairway acreage.
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More short grass areas, especially if little or no irrigation is needed or excepted, sounds like another benefit to having reversible courses.
Playability by more and less opportunities for lost balls. Like Mackenzie advocated near 100 yrs ago. Interesting that Mackenzie’s unbuilt design for El Boqueron in Argentina was a reversible course (wasn’t an initial design of his for the short course at ANGC also reversible?).
Atb
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Quick question (apologies if I missed it in the terrific responses):
Does playing the course in two directions affect the maintenance more or less than a standard course? I saw the parts about more playable ground around the greens and tees, but other than that, is there a significant difference versus a standard, one way course?
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Just saw Tom's last post, so another question:
What is the status of St Andrews Beach? Does it still exist? I remember doing a Google search awhile ago, and it seemed to still be around. Just curious.
Hi George:
Last question first: St. Andrews Beach is thriving under new ownership as a popular, reasonably-priced public course. It's had some of its thunder [and even its Gunnamatta name] stolen by our redesign of the Ocean course at The National close by, but it's good enough that when we had the Renaissance Cup at The National, and played St. Andrews Beach the day before -- after playing Royal Melbourne the day before that! -- there were still people coming up to me at the event buzzing about how much they liked St Andrews Beach.
As to your question about maintenance, one downside of a reversible design is that you have to have more area of maintained turf, because if you were hitting over native stuff off the tee on one hole, it would be on the approach the next day. At The Loop it is almost continuous turf . . . if you started on the first tee of the Red course, you could putt your ball all the way to the 3rd green . . . the only real breaks are at the par-3 holes where you are sometimes playing a par-3 either way over some native stuff. [We did add a break on the par-4 8th Red just for variety's sake.]
So, if I recall correctly, there is something like 33% more irrigated turf at The Loop, compared to my other courses. This would be cost-prohibitive [or at least raise the green fee significantly] with certain types of turf being used on fairways . . . you wouldn't want to turn Winged Foot or Congressional reversible at the level of maintenance they expect. But with fescue fairways, it doesn't add that much to the overall cost. The same would be true of St Andrews Beach, by the way . . . Bermuda that goes dormant part of the year is not so expensive for additional fairway acreage.
I am one of the fortunate few that has played St Andrews Beach - it is a very good course and enjoyable/challenging to play first time round then I played the Dunes by Tony Cashmore which was tougher and looking back wished I had played St Andrews Beach again
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Thanks for the thoughtful and thorough answer, Tom. Less native grass sounds fantastic to me.
And I'm thrilled to hear SAB is thriving. I look forward to getting there...someday.
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"I haven't seen the Loop so I have no dog in this fight, but as we know the most important factor governing the ultimate quality of a golf course is the land on which it sits, it seems clear to me that it is perfectly possible for a course to be its architect's greatest achievement without actually being his best course."
Adam Lawrence
Well said.
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Thanks for the thoughtful and thorough answer, Tom. Less native grass sounds fantastic to me.
And I'm thrilled to hear SAB is thriving. I look forward to getting there...someday.
We actually left more native grasses close to the fairways than normal there, because there is so much of it for straight hitters. It's not uncommon to lose a ball or two if you're unfamiliar with where the ball ought to be. That's actually one of the things I like about the course, it does make you keep it between the lines on a few of the tee shots.
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Thanks for the thoughtful and thorough answer, Tom. Less native grass sounds fantastic to me.
And I'm thrilled to hear SAB is thriving. I look forward to getting there...someday.
We actually left more native grasses close to the fairways than normal there, because there is so much of it for straight hitters. It's not uncommon to lose a ball or two if you're unfamiliar with where the ball ought to be. That's actually one of the things I like about the course, it does make you keep it between the lines on a few of the tee shots.
In the case of The Loop, I too liked that we were playing down corridors for much of the course, albeit wide, playable ones. The holes nearest the starter’s hut (1-4 R / 15-18 B and 1-4 B / 15-18 R) have an English heathland vibe to them, albeit without heather. Then in the middle of each nine on both routings, you move in to this really clever sequence with more open views, changes in direction (with some greens played at from 90 degrees to the other course as opposed to closer to 180 degrees) and as a result, more short grass outside the normal corridors of play.
It adds good variety to the look and feel.
The heavy fescue rough when we were there was ball-findable and playable but it was definitely to be considered. It wasn’t just “open your shoulders and you will be in play”.
Ally
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I have regrets that I was unable to catch up with you on this leg but am in full agreement. Having had the opportunity to play it back to back on one of the rare days where they flipped the pins over lunch. It was quite an experiential 36 Holes where you spend at least a 1/3 of the time trying to re-create in you mind, the path of the shot you took that morning from the other direction.
It must be played both ways hopefully on consecutive days.
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Last Summer I got around both the Black and the Red twice. My second round on the black, as a single with the last tee time of the day, afforded me time to spend chipping and studying each green complex. Black 6/Red 12 Green is unlike anything I’ve seen. I also have a soft spot for Black 11/Red 7 Green. (I would imagine that Black 17/Red 2 receives the most ink/opinions.)
The presentation of the course is what initially surprised me the most. I catch myself daydreaming that my local courses were blessed with such fast and firm characteristics.
However, the actions of my playing partners were the most surprising. With no usual framing of tee boxes and secondary rough boundaries of the fairways the cart traffic left a negative impression on me. I realize this has nothing to do with Doak’s design, but it was an odd sight to see carts parked next to (and on) greens; often I would notice carts parked directly on the green approach for tomorrow’s routing. Aesthetically this was not pleasing.
The only other nitpicking I would offer is that the green to tee walks/transition were burdensome. I believe this is the case because when after holing out, the next corridor/fairway begins immediately; its right there in front of you (because this is the approach for the next days routing). I had a desire to peg the tee right there next to the hole (like the original rules of golf) and thus begin playing, but those walks to the little tee marker often left me thinking the routing could be more ‘compressed.’ (I had initially thought that the tees would be 90 degrees from the previous green, but it seemed the slight majority were 60 yards down the fairway, albeit slightly skewed to one edge of the fairway)
Overall, it’s a unique design with no other peers (Silvies Golf in Oregon seems to be a different concept); and therefore, I have a difficult time labeling it a masterpiece. Its hard to label a one of one as a masterpiece. (I do think green complexes are exceptional)
I too am a fan of tees close to greens. However, some element of safety should be considered. The day we played the Red a golfer behind us was hit in the head while standing on a par 3 back tee. His mate thought many of the back tee locations were dangerous. If you play in Scotland etc you learn to pay attention even when on tees or stand away from tees while waiting. But the point is valid.
While on the subject of the tees, it may seem a mundane issue, but their design is pure beauty. They are often shaped as not wholly completed, but it's obvious when on them that they are tees. When not using those tees they blend into the background or are hidden. Remarkable.
I am stunned the Conf Guide goes with 7 for The Loop. It's the essence of a must see course. My joining this trip hinged on two days at The Loop as it was on my bucket list. I wouldn't have gone otherwise. There should almost be three ratings, Red, Black and The Loop.
Ciao
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I am stunned the Conf Guide goes with 7 for The Loop. It's the essence of a must see course. My joking this trip hinged on two days at The Loop as it was on my bucket list. I wouldn't have gone otherwise. There should almost be three ratings, Red, Black and The Loop.
I get a lot of crap when rating my own courses so I tend to rate them no higher than a friend would rate them. But I do think it's worth a long trip to see. Glad to hear someone else say it. A shame it didn't get used for the Midwest Mashie before that went commercial.
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I am stunned the Conf Guide goes with 7 for The Loop. It's the essence of a must see course. My joking this trip hinged on two days at The Loop as it was on my bucket list. I wouldn't have gone otherwise. There should almost be three ratings, Red, Black and The Loop.
I get a lot of crap when rating my own courses so I tend to rate them no higher than a friend would rate them. But I do think it's worth a long trip to see. Glad to hear someone else say it. A shame it didn't get used for the Midwest Mashie before that went commercial.
There can be no question The Loop is worth a bit of effort to see. I say three ratings because The Loop is clearly a case of the sum being better than its parts. If the Red and Black are 7s The Loop is a 10. You and your team should be proud of this achievement.
I have heard of a reversible 9 hole course in the Netherlands. Though I don't recall its name, it too will be on my bucket list.
Ciao
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I am stunned the Conf Guide goes with 7 for The Loop. It's the essence of a must see course. My joking this trip hinged on two days at The Loop as it was on my bucket list. I wouldn't have gone otherwise. There should almost be three ratings, Red, Black and The Loop.
I get a lot of crap when rating my own courses so I tend to rate them no higher than a friend would rate them. But I do think it's worth a long trip to see. Glad to hear someone else say it. A shame it didn't get used for the Midwest Mashie before that went commercial.
I have heard of a reversals 9 hole course in Netherland. Though I don't recall its name, it too will be on my bucket list.
https://www.thelinksvalley.nl/ (https://www.thelinksvalley.nl/)
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I am stunned the Conf Guide goes with 7 for The Loop. It's the essence of a must see course. My joking this trip hinged on two days at The Loop as it was on my bucket list. I wouldn't have gone otherwise. There should almost be three ratings, Red, Black and The Loop.
I get a lot of crap when rating my own courses so I tend to rate them no higher than a friend would rate them. But I do think it's worth a long trip to see. Glad to hear someone else say it. A shame it didn't get used for the Midwest Mashie before that went commercial.
The Mashie was scheduled there prior to Covid IIRC
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I am stunned the Conf Guide goes with 7 for The Loop. It's the essence of a must see course. My joking this trip hinged on two days at The Loop as it was on my bucket list. I wouldn't have gone otherwise. There should almost be three ratings, Red, Black and The Loop.
I get a lot of crap when rating my own courses so I tend to rate them no higher than a friend would rate them. But I do think it's worth a long trip to see. Glad to hear someone else say it. A shame it didn't get used for the Midwest Mashie before that went commercial.
HA As were headed to the Loop in 2020... then COVID hit. And after the boom year they had during COVID, when we called to inquire about 2022, their response to our request for a weekend in the fall of 2022 after a sold out 2021 was understandably... tepid and "reflective". LOL
But we gladly accept Tom's offer to host us at the Loop for the 2023 Mashie! Tom, we look forward to your confirmation!
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I mean, in fairness, the Mashie went corporate in 2021 when we started doing shit like playing on greens stimping 14 and driving Dodge Rams on alternative entrance roads.
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I mean, in fairness, the Mashie went corporate in 2021 when we started doing shit like playing on greens stimping 14 and driving Dodge Rams on alternative entrance roads.
Lol. Commercial? Tom D’s inference the Mashie has gone “commercial” is a Doak 2. We are a guerrilla operation.
We hustle and scramble for Mashie sites in a market where clubs have waitlists and public tracks have sold out tee times. All to find architecturally interesting places for our golf achie geek pals to play in between NGLA and Cypress Point.
Shit, we cold call folks we know and don’t know. Let’s be clear, we hunt for opportunities and if we find them, we try to secure a Mashie Site. We took a risk and asked Will for a Landmand Mashie before they even knew how the grass was going to grow-in at Landmand.
We had the Loop and a couple months out, the Loop rightfully got cold feet about us overnighting during COVID, George literally picked up the phone and reserved a 36 hole single day of emergency tee times at Lawsonia and the week before we were to arrive, Craig Haltom helped us get them back after the computer deleted them sometime after they were made.
We grind, work with courses and folks we know, pitch folks we don’t, all in an attempt to find interesting sites between the coasts for the Mashie. Commercial nor profitable we are not. No sponsors. Just grinders.
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All right, Vaughn. Your thread-jump is justifiable and worded well. Hustle and grind is the way of the winning world.
Back to the original thread. I don't know if anyone has taken umbrage with the suggestion that any talent is restricted to one masterpiece. That's not how it works.
Pacific Dunes is a masterpiece.
The Loop is a masterpiece. I've seen and played both/all three.
From all accounts, St. Patrick's is a masterpiece. I've not seen it.
I anticipate the Lido will be a masterpiece. I walked it during construction, shot photos, and marvelled at its scale and bravado.
I hope that other masterworks await us, before Tom segues into a new career in the breeding of roses.
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Ronald,
St. Patrick’s is indeed a masterpiece. Like The Loop, there is nothing else to compare it to: No true links course - at least in GB&I - has ever before been built on 300 acres of prime dune land (maybe Sandwich is the closest comparison). The scale is huge and very modern in that sense. What makes it stand out is the absolute mastery and confidence in the design decisions and the detail in marrying the build to a sensitive landscape where anything “artificial” can usually be spotted by the trained eye.
The Loop’s mastery is less about marrying the build to a sensitive landscape, more about how the concept has been made to work so beautifully and seamlessly.