Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jerry Kluger on August 24, 2022, 04:12:10 PM
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Tom has given an interview where he goes far beyond architecture and goes into who Tom Doak the man really is. Not many successful people have opened up the way Tom has in this interview and it really comes down to the fact that he is an imperfect person which we all are but few come out so candidly and admit it. It is worth the time to listen to it and I have attached the link which I hope is available even if you are not a subscriber to The Golfers Journal.
https://www.golfersjournal.com/editorial/you-dont-know-doak/?utm_source=The+Golfer%27s+Journal&utm_campaign=3b0269579a-PodEp115-08242022&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_de397cb05c-3b0269579a-84679309
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Incredible podcast. Just open and honest. Great listen.
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I made it through 15 minutes. Can’t wait to play Boo Hoo Dunes.
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8) Interesting listen ... I made it through the whole thing, though I was multi-tasking...
Met TD and hiked the front 9 at Memorial Park with him and Mike Nuzzo one day while they were finishing things and my take-away was "focused and keeping it real." If he'd come to my workplace or workspace I'd hope he'd have the same thought.
First and most extensive TD exposure was Black Forest as summer home course from its build to closure, followed by High Pointe also from build to closure (hope the zoning gets revised on the east side, I'd invest in that Project!)
also played: Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Old Mac, Dismal River - Red, Rawls, Streamsong Blue, The Loop, Memorial Park... take-aways always seem to be I could learn more about the design stuff and my game, let's play it again, there's unfinished business. No strong complaints from this amatuer and some real good memories, what more could you ask?
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Similar thread started 25 minutes earlier!
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71294.0.html
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The impetus for doing that interview with Tom Coyne was an exchange we'd had the year before. Someone had sent me a copy of his book "A Course Called America", and in reading through his write-up of The Loop at Forest Dunes, he prefaced it with this paragraph:
"I wanted to nitpick and find the course inferior to Hixson's two-way in Oregon. Dan had been such a gracious host and playing partner, while I had reservations about Tom Doak. 'Socially remote' would be a politic way to sum up what I'd been told about his demeanor, but he was given a pass for being aloof because he was golf's wunderkind. I was less convinced, and preferred Bob Ford's 'It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice' perspective. But then I played The Loop, and I found myself reconfiguring my thoughts on Doak. Dammit, he was a genius. And plenty of savants have rubbed people the wrong way."
I thought that was a bit strong, from someone who had never actually met me or even reached out to me for an interview. I even reached out to a writer I know, a fan of Mr. Coyne's work, to ask him if he didn't think that was a little overboard, and the response was that it was really out of line, and whoever he'd spoken to about me must really hate me for some reason.
So, I reached out to Mr. Coyne, and we talked about it at length, and found that maybe we had some things in common. And I thought that maybe we should talk about some of those things on his podcast, since they affect so many people. I would guess, based on recent experiences and conversations, that as many as 25-50% of adults have trouble dealing with emotional issues that go back to some family history of alcoholism. Whether your parents were raging drunks [which mine were not] or teetotalers or religious zealots [which mine were not], or somewhere in between, they might well be that way because they're afraid of being like their parents, and they still have many of the behaviors they learned as kids to avoid trouble -- things like isolating themselves, struggling with authority figures, perfectionism, and other addictive behaviors. [It is much more complex than that, of course; I'm just giving you a taste of it to see if you can relate.]
Certainly I didn't do the podcast because I want anyone to feel sorry for me. Golfers care mostly about the work I've done, and some of these personality traits have led directly to a lot of my success in writing and design, even as they have caused struggle for me and for others around me. Many people with similar issues are afraid of what others think of them and go out of their way to please everyone. I was the opposite somehow; I came of age kind of expecting other people not to like me, so there was no point worrying about what they thought.
Unfortunately, there are only a handful of writers who know enough about golf architecture to write about the work, so they try to write about us as people instead, based on very limited interactions [or even NO interaction, in the above example]. And most architects are happy to sell their product that way, via a mutual, insincere flattery. Honestly, I'd prefer to remain misunderstood, if that's the only other option. ;)
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I'm an alcoholic parent of adult children so I don't want to make lite of the situation. Does anyone believe Mr. Coyne picked up 10 yds carry with the new driver he is advertising?
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I'm an alcoholic parent of adult children so I don't want to make lite of the situation. Does anyone believe Mr. Coyne picked up 10 yds carry with the new driver he is advertising?
LOL
Tom C's my guest Saturday.
that was the first thing i was going to ask him(7 mph ball speed?)
I would've thought it was from his lesson two weeks ago, but alas, his new driver gets the credit.
Then again, if actually true about the driver, even more depressing. ;) ;D
I thought it was a fantastic interview.
I've been very fortunate to have many interactions with Tom D-some professional, some personal, some on the radio which is something I really appreciate him making time for.
All were extremely positive and informative(some were quite frank and that made them even more useful), and Tom has always been an extremely gracious host at events surrounding the RC.
;) ;D [size=78%]I have no idea if my Sqairz make me hit it farther, but they are comfortable and stable-especially on sidehill/unstable stance lies.But then they don't pay me-they pay McLean and I often do his reads in his absence. (I do wear them and I do have 2 free pairs)[/size]
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Very humanizing interview. I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.
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Very humanizing interview. I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.
In other words, if you love the Doak you know don’t listen. Before I ever met Tom my brother told me that Doak has a quick wit that bites but is funny as hell. Something celebrity no longer allows.
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Very humanizing interview. I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.
In other words, if you love the Doak you know don’t listen. Before I ever met Tom my brother told me that Doak has a quick wit that bites but is funny as hell. Something celebrity no longer allows.
Yes, if you actually have spent more than ten minutes with me, you don't need to listen to a profile to find out what I'm like. That probably already goes for most people here, as well. You've seen enough of me to have formed your own opinion [and that's all it is, your best guess].
And you are right that it is difficult in the modern world for anyone in the public eye to have a sense of humor. It's too easy for it to be misinterpreted or deemed "wrong".
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"Art enables us to find ourselves and lose ourselves at the same time" -- Thomas Merton
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Very humanizing interview. I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.
Peter,
I’ve known Tom Doak for almost twenty five years and never bought into the “asshole” narrative. We first met at a traditionalgolf.com (http://traditionalgolf.com) get together at Crystal Downs. This was before GolfCubAtlas.com (http://GolfCubAtlas.com) and Tom was gracious enough to do a slide show for the group.
Tom’s knowledge and passion for golf architecture was obvious. One could see it then, even before the success and fame that came with Pacific Dunes and other projects that followed. The group, which included passionate golf architecture junkies like Dick Daley from Green Bay, really appreciated the effort Tom made to make this golf get together more enjoyable.
Anyway, a few years later, GolfClubAtlas.com (http://GolfClubAtlas.com) came into existence and somewhere around 2000 I created a thread that was motivated by my memory of playing the 9th hole at Whitemarsh Valley almost twenty years before. In the thread, I commented that golf courses keep getting bigger and longer and suggested someone should buck the trend by building something really small, specifically a Par Three of 100 yards or less.
My recollection is that those who responded to my thread weren’t very enthusiastic about my suggestion to build “a little devil”. Tom was amongst those who posted and his input was that it would be tough to get a client to buy into the idea.
Well, four to five years went by before I found myself at Barnbougle Dunes for Tom’s annual Renaissance Cup. For the first round, I had the pleasure of playing with Jonathon McCleery from Melbourne who, if I remember correctly, was an investor in the project.
After playing the long and difficult 6th hole, I walked to an “oh my god” moment. There it was. There was “a little devil”, Barnbougle’s 7th. And, it was better than anything I had imagined. To say that I was giddy for the rest of the round would be an understatement.
But, I wasn’t prepared for what happened next. Tom approached me after the round and with a big smile and said “so, how do you like your hole?”.
It was a part of Tom not seen or generally known. It was the opposite of the “asshole” narrative.
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Very humanizing interview. I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.
After playing the long and difficult 6th hole, I walked to an “oh my god” moment. There it was. There was “a little devil”, Barnbougle’s 7th. And, it was better than anything I had imagined. To say that I was giddy for the rest of the round would be an understatement.
But, I wasn’t prepared for what happened next. Tom approached me after the round and with a big smile and said “so, how do you like your hole?”.
It was a part of Tom not seen or generally known. It was the opposite of the “asshole” narrative.
Very cool.
I doubled it, so going forward I will stop hating Tom for it, and move on to blaming you. ;)
I happened to be playing with Tom, literally just stumbled on each other, and he couldn't have been more gracious in his tour of the front nine.
I'd like to think he might've enjoyed my double there, but no doubt he's seen many disasters there by now, and I'm pretty sure the other doubles I made that day made that particular double less special.
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Nice listen, thanks for sharing the link. And thanks all for the stories shared.
I suspect Tom's "problems" early on with his reputation were really more the problems of those hiring him. Almost by definition, golf course ownership is a wealthy person's game. You don't generally get to that level of financial success without having a strong ego, and many/most of these individuals simply think they know everything.
My wife always say, well, you think you know everything. And I always respond, no, I KNOW I know everything, there's a difference. :)
But we both know I'm kidding. My repeated failures in the business world have hammered humility into me better than any Marine Corps drill sergeant...
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8) Hey George,
You indirectly bring up a very important thought... a spouse may a strong force in helping one laugh at oneself and staying real & humble!
Ms Sheila says hi... been a while since the Land of Enchantment outing ;D
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True indeed, although I've been laughing at myself for just over 55 years now. She doesn't like when I poke fun at myself in front of others, but she doesn't have my strong ego... :)
Tell Ms. Shelia I said hi. Maybe I'll make it down to Houston one day.
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I suspect Tom's "problems" early on with his reputation were really more the problems of those hiring him. Almost by definition, golf course ownership is a wealthy person's game. You don't generally get to that level of financial success without having a strong ego, and many/most of these individuals simply think they know everything.
My wife always say, well, you think you know everything. And I always respond, no, I KNOW I know everything, there's a difference. :)
Hi George:
Your point about the rich guys is certainly oversimplified. I have dealt with a lot of very wealthy people over my career, and most of them are pretty straightforward. They seem to be the least likely people to be concerned that I'm "difficult". I'd bet that some have heard that same label about themselves, so they take it with a grain of salt. They are mostly very direct in their communications and don't rely on intermediaries. In fact, the majority of my conflicts over the years [which are not as many as people think] have come when there was a middle man who was not accurately communicating between me and the client, or with more "corporate" clients who insist on a long chain of command.
You are 100% right though that one's wife will sort out one's ego right quick.
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I suspect Tom's "problems" early on with his reputation were really more the problems of those hiring him. Almost by definition, golf course ownership is a wealthy person's game. You don't generally get to that level of financial success without having a strong ego, and many/most of these individuals simply think they know everything.
My wife always say, well, you think you know everything. And I always respond, no, I KNOW I know everything, there's a difference. :)
Hi George:
Your point about the rich guys is certainly oversimplified. I have dealt with a lot of very wealthy people over my career, and most of them are pretty straightforward. They seem to be the least likely people to be concerned that I'm "difficult". I'd bet that some have heard that same label about themselves, so they take it with a grain of salt. They are mostly very direct in their communications and don't rely on intermediaries. In fact, the majority of my conflicts over the years [which are not as many as people think] have come when there was a middle man who was not accurately communicating between me and the client, or with more "corporate" clients who insist on a long chain of command.
You are 100% right though that one's wife will sort out one's ego right quick.
That's great to hear, happy to be wrong. You know better rich people than I do, apparently. :)
(That is a joke, for anyone offended. Most of my college friends are fantastically successful, and none the worse for it. My observation earlier is based on a lifetime of exposure to driven, highly capable, mostly financially successful people. Feel free to disagree. :) [size=78%])[/size]
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Edit: Wrong thread
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Tom,
Really great not-golf + golf interview. Both you and Tom Coyne have led interesting lives in golf.
Looking forward to hopefully seeing one of your coastal courses, Saint Pat's, next season.
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They are mostly very direct in their communications and don't rely on intermediaries.
This, and how personally many take the opinions of others, are leading causes of "that guy is an asshole."
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I remember when we had a GCA get together at Bandon Dunes for the opening of Old Macdonald and George Bahto was there and couldn't wait to show Ran the course and Tom was there speaking at dinner. After dinner we retired to the bar area and I happened to strike up a conversation with Tom and he couldn't have been more gracious spending quite a bit of time with a guy who had so much to learn about gca. Its funny that the next time I saw him was in the restroom of the clubhouse at Streamsong not long after it opened and he laughingly asked me not to say anything to the group as he was there with his wife to show her the course and didn't want to be pulled away from spending the time with her. I would say that his reputation so far as I was concerned was far different from some others who perhaps dealt with him while he was working at his trade. In any event I would commend him for recognizing any issues he might have had and trying his best to better relate to people.
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Pretty brave of you to put yourself out there like that Tom.
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Just listened to this. Awesome stuff.
Regarding Coyne's 7 mph ball speed gain, he made no mention of the driver he was replacing. What was it, a Burner Bubble from '98? A Cleveland VAS uber offset from '93? A Wood Bros. Texan from '78? Everything's relative.
I guess the juciest tidbit for me was further smoke around the HP resurrection.
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I found Tom’s discussion of #17 at Tara Iti interesting. He built a hole he was very proud of, and changed it at the request of the owner. What I wonder is, how often does an owner’s preferences (other than budget and other economic issues) influence a design? I know Tom didn’t say he didn’t like the Tara Iti change, but would an architect design something at an owner’s request even if he felt his idea was preferable?
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I’m more concerned about why we perceive someone to be an asshole rather than if they are one.
Watching an interview with Weiskopf makes me wonder why I let “them” get away with it.
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I’m more concerned about why we perceive someone to be an asshole rather than if they are one.
Watching an interview with Weiskopf makes me wonder why I let “them” get away with it.
I have not listened yet but I was thinking the same thing. The easiest way to be perceived as an asshole(IMHO) is to not agree with everything some dude is wanting you to agree with. So many club committees would have been much better off if they had hired the "asshole" that interviewed instead of the dude that would do as they say and spent $10,000 grand on a presentation. That's why the really high net worth owners ( if they made their own money) are easy to work for....they know that and BS quit impressing them a long time ago. As for Weiskopf, I was around him some when he was building Harbor Club. I really liked the guy and the people that considered him an asshole were the ones where he called out their BS.
Didn't he jump Kuchar's dad once when he was caddying for him and marked the ball with a quarter or something?
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Mike--
Tom Weiskopf got heated with the then reigning US Senior Amateur Champion Jim Stahl at the 1996 US Senior Open at Canterbury when they were paired together. You are correct in that it was regarding Stahl using a quarter to mark his ball. I met Jim on several occasions, and he was a great guy and a true gentleman.
The Peter Kuchar incident involved Justin Leonard at the 1998 US Open at Olympic.
I listened to the podcast and found it enjoyable and enlightening. I think if everyone realized that no one's perfect, the world would be a happier place.
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Who thinks anyone is perfect besides themselves?
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Very enjoyable listen.
Funny, Tom met a few of my friends at Stonewall a couple of years ago in the bar. Somehow my name came up and Tom responds, "I know Jim Franklin. We aren't friends. He loves my course in Montana." (or something to that effect) My boys got a kick out of that and let me know any chance they get. Tom was not wrong. I love Rock Creek.
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Mike--
Tom Weiskopf got heated with the then reigning US Senior Amateur Champion Jim Stahl at the 1996 US Senior Open at Canterbury when they were paired together. You are correct in that it was regarding Stahl using a quarter to mark his ball. I met Jim on several occasions, and he was a great guy and a true gentleman.
The Peter Kuchar incident involved Justin Leonard at the 1998 US Open at Olympic.
I listened to the podcast and found it enjoyable and enlightening. I think if everyone realized that no one's perfect, the world would be a happier place.
I remember the quarter story being about Weiskopf and Joel Hirsch. Funny how memory is so unreliable. I can’t count the times I have thought I remembered something and was wrong.
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Funny, Tom met a few of my friends at Stonewall a couple of years ago in the bar. Somehow my name came up and Tom responds, "I know Jim Franklin. We aren't friends. He loves my course in Montana." (or something to that effect) My boys got a kick out of that and let me know any chance they get. Tom was not wrong. I love Rock Creek.
Jim:
That’s a good story because it illustrates my conundrum. If that were Bill Coore or Gil Hanse your friends had met, their expectations would be different, and it just wouldn’t get reported back to you the same way. But most people, having read all the bs that they’ve read, assume I have an edge and interpret everything I say in that light instead.
Thankfully the majority of people don’t recognize me or know who I am, and I can have a drink with them or play nine holes and they just think I’m a nice guy. I kind of don’t want to introduce myself, because my (golf business) persona precedes me.
I’ve never minded being labeled as “controversial,” I see that as a good thing. Mr Dye said at the TPC in 1982, “Golf is a controversial game and I’m glad to be part of it.”
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8) So TD, Do any of your personal tastes lead you to Round's or Potter's or Paesano's or Mode's or Boone's in TC? Inquiring minds want to know, and if any investors would be sought to aid the rebirth of High Pointe?
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8)
Played with Tom a couple times most notably at Lost Dunes in Michigan, which is a cool place 8) We had fun talked a lot of golf and he appreciated my experiences caddying for some of the great players and architects themselves when I was young. I was struck by his interest in how various levels of player approached the game and particular shots. To me that's an integral part of being a great GCA. We both laughed heartily when I recounted how Pete Dye found this old hollowed out bunker way out of play left on #6 at PVGC and at 60 years old was enjoying jumping around in it like a little kid.
On a personal level we still chat on occasion and it has been a pleasure for me ! We had a mutual friend who died too young and it has been a glue in our relationship. We both share memories of Tom McCarthy , who worked in the shop with me at Pine Valley and worked with Tom building Riverfront GC . Tommy Mac was a Notre Dame guy, which neither Tom or I held against him. He got me an invite from Tom D to the Renaissance Cup that year in Michigan. It's a great memory of mine.
I'm still laughing to myself thinking of our walk around Twisted Dune in it's raw state. Famous up and coming architect spent the time to visit and see the giant sandbox we built. To this day don't know if he liked it or just thought I was nuts , or both 8) might have been one of the few times he couldn't fashion an opinion lol
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If you look in between an acquaintance and a friend you might find a buddy.
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;D 8)
Good one JAKA
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Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?
There is nothing as unreliable as people's memories of events and interactions. I've lost track of how many times I was sitting in a meeting, get together, whatever, and came away with a completely different recollection of said meeting, get together, whatever, than someone else who was in the same meeting.....
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Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?
They are a gateway to poker chips.
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I met Tom Doak in the pro-shop at Crystal Downs one afternoon. He seemed surprised to see me - even though he had invited me for a round about two weeks prior.
He quickly started needing me about my inconsistent game... And continued doing so even when I started playing better. e.g. When I drove about 285 yds down the middle of the 11th, he quickly assessed that "I was the third longest Australian on that hole, after Adam Scott and Ian Baker-Finch."
He took great pleasure in the fact I double-bogeyed the signature 17th hole and seemed disappointed by the fact I scratched out a par on 18 despite never seeing the fairway or the green in anything close to regulation.
I, on the other hand, took great pleasure in the fact the barman at the clubhouse insisted on putting my two beers on his tab despite the fact I offered him cash.
That said, we both seem to like many of the same things and dislike the same people including TFG and Greg Norman.
I think his reputation as perhaps the premier architect of our times is likely deserved... he seems to know everything there is to know about golf course design and construction. His knowledge can really only be compared to people like Martin Scorcese or the Coen Brothers in terms of being both a practitioner and a student in his field of endeavor.
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From butt boy to buddy in the blink of an eye.
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Funny, Tom met a few of my friends at Stonewall a couple of years ago in the bar. Somehow my name came up and Tom responds, "I know Jim Franklin. We aren't friends. He loves my course in Montana." (or something to that effect) My boys got a kick out of that and let me know any chance they get. Tom was not wrong. I love Rock Creek.
Jim:
That’s a good story because it illustrates my conundrum. If that were Bill Coore or Gil Hanse your friends had met, their expectations would be different, and it just wouldn’t get reported back to you the same way. But most people, having read all the bs that they’ve read, assume I have an edge and interpret everything I say in that light instead.
Thankfully the majority of people don’t recognize me or know who I am, and I can have a drink with them or play nine holes and they just think I’m a nice guy. I kind of don’t want to introduce myself, because my (golf business) persona precedes me.
I’ve never minded being labeled as “controversial,” I see that as a good thing. Mr Dye said at the TPC in 1982, “Golf is a controversial game and I’m glad to be part of it.”
Tom -
I had no problem with your description. My friends really enjoyed talking with you. We all agree you are a top architect. My opinion did not change. We have never met, but have communicated electronically. Does that make us friends? Not really. It makes us friendly maybe. I am just happy I can say you know who I am. Lol. And Rock Creek is still my favorite course.
It is all good. Keep doing you. No regrets. By the way, I was a '61 baby and now 61 as well. So we have that in common.
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Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?
They are a gateway to poker chips.
Ok. I generally use two markers - a quarter if I'm not near anyone's line, and a dime if I am. The quarter is just easier to see, and I'm 55 and having trouble spotting dimes.
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Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?
They are a gateway to poker chips.
Ok. I generally use two markers - a quarter if I'm not near anyone's line, and a dime if I am. The quarter is just easier to see, and I'm 55 and having trouble spotting dimes.
Its all good George, this is a complete nothing burger, I use a quarter too...and its just as easy to move it as anything else.
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I met Tom Doak in the pro-shop at Crystal Downs one afternoon. He seemed surprised to see me - even though he had invited me for a round about two weeks prior.
He quickly started needing me about my inconsistent game... And continued doing so even when I started playing better. e.g. When I drove about 285 yds down the middle of the 11th, he quickly assessed that "I was the third longest Australian on that hole, after Adam Scott and Ian Baker-Finch."
He took great pleasure in the fact I double-bogeyed the signature 17th hole and seemed disappointed by the fact I scratched out a par on 18 despite never seeing the fairway or the green in anything close to regulation.
I, on the other hand, took great pleasure in the fact the barman at the clubhouse insisted on putting my two beers on his tab despite the fact I offered him cash.
So, how many other architects have taken the time to host you at their home club? Did Gil Hanse take you to Fishers Island?
I have done that for at least 100 people over the years whom I only knew from the internet, because Crystal Downs is a special place and I like to help people get to see it.
Also the 11th is a par-3, Adam Scott has never been to the Downs (although Clayts and Finchy have played there with me), and you can’t get a beer in the clubhouse on your own, as far as I’m aware.
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Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?
They are a gateway to poker chips.
Ok. I generally use two markers - a quarter if I'm not near anyone's line, and a dime if I am. The quarter is just easier to see, and I'm 55 and having trouble spotting dimes.
Its all good George, this is a complete nothing burger, I use a quarter too...and its just as easy to move it as anything else.
I don't know why everyone (except on tour where I think it's not allowed) doesn't use white markers that stick into the ground. Easy to see and flat. I always feel like a pain in the ass if I ask someone to move their coin. Pennies are very hard to see and poker chips might as well be manhole covers.
I assume it's cause not enough places sell or give away white flat markers (which can be logo'ed), but maybe there is another good reason why people don't use them.
Anyhow, I don't want to divert the thread. The interview with Doak was very good. To me, Tom came off very candid and frank and like a good guy.
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My 2c. The whole kerfluffle about Tom and whether or not he is an asshole- or the greatest guy around- stems from the fact that his talents have made him very well know in golf circles around the world. The problem with notoriety is that everyone thinks that a) they know you well enough to have an opinion and b) someone else cares about their opinion. I first met Tom at White Bear Yacht Club in the mid-90s when he was still getting known and was able to work at old clubs who were figuring out what they were and what they wanted to be. I was a young, ignorant golf chair who had read a bunch of architecture books and pushed hard to get Tom to the club. When we met, I was excited to present to him a partial copy of the original typewritten Confidential Guide, which I had gotten my hands on from another friend also not on the original mailing list. I asked him to sign it- and he said "Where did you get that?" I explained, and he said something to the effect of "I didn't send it to you so no." Initially taken aback, I had to laugh. The next time he came to the club, he had self-published the Guide in the brownish hard cover version, which I had bought as soon as it came out. I brought my copy and again presented it and asked if he would sign this one. He laughed and replied "You bet- you got it legitimately!" I'm happy to say that Tom, then working with Jim Urbina, helped raise our consciousness about what exactly we had and why we should invest in its preservation and improvement. We have.
I have done my best to support the expanding Doak library since then.
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I just listen to the pod while driving an hour and a half from taking my youngest son to a baseball tournament.
I've worked some with Tom and have always marveled at his design mind as I never see what he sees. At Dismal River I couldn't in a million years see the holes where he put them until we built them. At Memorial Park I remain amazed at how a course can be so challenging for the best players and so fun for the masses.
Personally, I think of Tom as someone who made much of my career possible. I had the drive, and I'd like to think the ability, but getting breaks isn't easy in this dog eat dog business, especially in the time period when I caught my first one from Tom. I do believe that he saw that drive and ability in me, and I think he has a knack for matching individuals with the right situation for success. I've seen him welcome so many up and comers, happy to share knowledge but seeming always also letting them know they better be damn persistent if they wanted to make a living in golf.
Tom's comment in the pod about Gil telling a writer that Tom is misunderstood but the writer not using it is about how it is.
I've worked with a bunch of architects, and many are insecure and highly critical of their competitors. In my experience with Tom he isn't like that at all, which flies in the face of the reputation he got from the confidential guide. And for someone who is supposed to be hard to work with, he is very open to ideas from just about anyone.
I think as we age we begin to understand what has shaped us. I do think that a lot of what may have brought us challenges, has also given us positive attributes that helped make us successful, and maybe added some focus that helps us not get too concerned about impressing everyone we meet along the way.
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Being blunt comes with some risks. It can create perceptions that the person does not intend. While their answer or interactions may be open and honest, it can be read differently by the person receiving them. In most instances the initial negative reaction is easily overcome with more interaction. This creates a deeper understanding of the blunt personality and provides the tools to adapt to the style. Being blunt can have some great advantages, but it does hurt some feelings along the way too. If someone doesn't like the style, they are more likely to label you as difficult and share that opinion with others.
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I don't know Mr. Doak very well, having met on one occasion at the Mashie he hosted at Lost Dunes, and a few years later during a tour of his not yet completed course at Dismal River, at a 5th Major. I had of course read "about" him prior to the event, and had no idea what to expect. His after-dinner presentation and Q and A session was awesome, as was the couple of hours sitting around the living room table in the cabin thereafter (highlighted by his stories about the dangers of ticks and Lyme's disease -- followed closely by my spotting and picking a tick off his golf shirt!). I found him to be engaging, and willing to share his insights on gca to (in my case at least) a bunch of know-nothings. It was very cool to see him running over to the guy in bobcat shaping the 18th green at Dismal on the second portion of our tour. I look forward to getting back there some day to see how the course has grown in.
I also very much enjoy his (and our other gcas) participation on this discussion board -- the inside baseball that we as a group are blessed with is imo very cool.
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I met Tom Doak in the pro-shop at Crystal Downs one afternoon. He seemed surprised to see me - even though he had invited me for a round about two weeks prior.
He quickly started needing me about my inconsistent game... And continued doing so even when I started playing better. e.g. When I drove about 285 yds down the middle of the 11th, he quickly assessed that "I was the third longest Australian on that hole, after Adam Scott and Ian Baker-Finch."
He took great pleasure in the fact I double-bogeyed the signature 17th hole and seemed disappointed by the fact I scratched out a par on 18 despite never seeing the fairway or the green in anything close to regulation.
I, on the other hand, took great pleasure in the fact the barman at the clubhouse insisted on putting my two beers on his tab despite the fact I offered him cash.
So, how many other architects have taken the time to host you at their home club? Did Gil Hanse take you to Fishers Island?
I have done that for at least 100 people over the years whom I only knew from the internet, because Crystal Downs is a special place and I like to help people get to see it.
Also the 11th is a par-3, Adam Scott has never been to the Downs (although Clayts and Finchy have played there with me), and you can’t get a beer in the clubhouse on your own, as far as I’m aware.
Sorry Tom. I misremembered both the hole and the other Australian who outdrove me. Now that you have jogged my memory it was the 12th hole. And the other Australian was indeed Mike Clayton. Although it adds to my embarrassment that even my best poke couldn't match the efforts of two modest in length (although highly accomplished) pros from my home country. Basically my game has been in steady decline since Steve Elkington pipped me by a stroke at the NSW Schoolboys event in 1979.
BTW - I was not aware Gil Hanse was a member of Fishers Island.. he must have some fancy friends... Although I must have a couple as well, since I managed to get out there without his assistance last year.
As far as paying for your drinks at Crystal Downs, your bar staff are real sticklers for the rules. I struck up a conversation with a Michigan football fan on the balcony who ordered a couple of beers for me... When it came time to pay, I offered him the cash... he told me the barman had already put it on your tab since that's who invited me.
And yes, Crystal Downs is a special place.. I particularly enjoyed all the holes in the main paddock below the clubhouse.