Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jerry Kluger on August 09, 2022, 05:01:34 PM
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I played a new course this weekend which is within a new housing development. Most of the holes on the front nine had houses being built and they really hurt the appearance of the holes. So much so that the few holes without houses just looked many times better. Then played the back nine which had no houses and felt that it flowed so well through the mature trees and ponds. I was trying to be as objective as I could be in comparing the two nines and all I could think about was how the back nine was going to look after so many trees are removed and houses built.
Are there courses where houses have minimal affect on the golf course or perhaps even enhance the course?
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I don't like houses on a golf course, but when I played Wilshire and Riviera, for example, it was awfully fun looking at some of those amazing homes and learning who they belonged to. Even the least tasteful ones were pretty fascinating.
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I can't think of any course I played that enhanced the course. When the course only has homes on the perimeter, it's not dreadful. Riviera's homes don't really front the course because they are up high.
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I don't like houses on a golf course, but when I played Wilshire and Riviera, for example, it was awfully fun looking at some of those amazing homes and learning who they belonged to. Even the least tasteful ones were pretty fascinating.
Same with Pebble Beach. When I have played there I have enjoyed checking those out.
Merion has pretty cool homes on the course, or right across the street, especially the ones on Golf House Road.
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The houses at Desert Mountain fit in the landscape better than the golf courses.
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Why does the town of St. Andrews enhance that course? I think almost everyone agrees that it makes 17 and 18 more memorable and better. The shops and hotel are certainly a lot more charming than a suburban McMansion, but is there anything else to it? I wonder if it's just that it's public and busy vs silent and private.
Thinking about this difference may answer the question if a house could ever achieve the things Scottish towns add.
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Are there holes at Pebble Beach with houses on both sides and if so, how are they when compared with those that have the ocean on one side which certainly adds to the holes.
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Most places I would say that homes detract from the view and experience. One place I really did not mind was at Redlands Mesa in Colorado. Most were up at a higher elevation.
(https://i.ibb.co/8XtDmDq/IMG-4821.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M9QDgDr)
To answer your question, I don't think that they can ever "enhance" a golf course.
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I was pretty enamored with the homes alongside North Berwick as well. I do think they can add to the experience, as long as they’re out of play and nearly as interesting as the course. Don’t always hurt, at least.
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Jerry,
It has been discussed and debated on this site forever; are the views off the course part of or not part of the design/architecture? Some say they are not and they should not have any impact since they are out of the architect’s control. That is all true isn’t it ;)
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Mark it is still absolutely true but my recent experience showed me that no matter how much I try to focus on the architecture of the course the architecture of the homes around it can have a dramatic affect.
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Are there holes at Pebble Beach with houses on both sides and if so, how are they when compared with those that have the ocean on one side which certainly adds to the holes.
14 and 15 technically have houses on both sides. 1, 2 and 17 kind of have buildings on both sides.
The holes with buildings on one side and the ocean on the other are 4, 5 and 18.
Not going to include 10, 11 and 12 that have the maintenance facility bordering.
I can't make any conclusion based on those groups of holes. I like 14 and think of 15 as rather forgetful. I like 2 and 17 but not a big fan of 1. I like 4 and 18 but don't love 5. I think I would say the same about the holes with water or without and with buildings and without.
As an entire course I don't think Pebble would be the same without the ocean views, say for example the ocean was a cliff in AZ, UT, CO (there'd still be some pretty spectacular holes though).
To answer the original question I've never encountered buildings that enhanced the course. For me this includes many mentioned in Scotland.
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I wouldn’t say houses enhance the course but do create a sense of place. Some courses are neighborhood courses. My home course has houses because the suburbs of Philly exploded after 1926.
So we are connected to our neighbors and give the teenagers a place to drink at night and the sledders a great place to go in the snow.
I honestly don’t even notice them.
A modern course that I thought gave the good land to the course instead of the houses is Odessa National in Delaware.
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Mayday: Could you explain what made the land for the golf course better than the land for the houses?
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Mayday: Could you explain what made the land for the golf course better than the land for the houses?
The course has some water running through it which would have been nice for homes. There are a few nice hills on the course which for Delaware is a big deal. Instead of houses on the hills there was golf.
I only saw a hole with houses close by.
There are two courses on the other side of town that have houses on both sides.
It looks like the houses came first then the course.
Odessa looks like the course came first.
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Courses such as Winter Park 9, that exist in a true urban park environment, draw a lot from their community feel. You extract the course from its city park setting and put it in more natural expanse and the feeling around the course would be dramatically different. It would lose something about the place of the course and how it interacts with surrounding neighborhood.
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Courses such as Winter Park 9, that exist in a true urban park environment, draw a lot from their community feel. You extract the course from its city park setting and put it in more natural expanse and the feeling around the course would be dramatically different. It would lose something about the place of the course and how it interacts with surrounding neighborhood.
I was going to say that about The Presidio in SF.
Does MacKenzie's house enhance Pasatiempo?
I've never played it, but when I was watching the Golf Digest video on "Every hole at Winged Foot" prior to the 2020 US Open I remember liking the way that some of the holes had some nice homes behind the green that added to the parkland feel. I'd imagine you could say that about a lot of courses.
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I played a new course this weekend which is within a new housing development. Most of the holes on the front nine had houses being built and they really hurt the appearance of the holes. So much so that the few holes without houses just looked many times better. Then played the back nine which had no houses and felt that it flowed so well through the mature trees and ponds. I was trying to be as objective as I could be in comparing the two nines and all I could think about was how the back nine was going to look after so many trees are removed and houses built.
Are there courses where houses have minimal affect on the golf course or perhaps even enhance the course?
I would say a few houses at North Berwick are a slightly negative visual impact, but not much because its easy to look at the sea going out. A few others are no bother because there are no views in their direction. They sit above the course. But I can't think of a course which is visually better for houses.
So far as a residential course, Hope Valley is very good. The housing doesn't enhance the course, but the course was designed to be in a neighbourhood. I spose Yeamans is good that way as well.
Ciao
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Good question Jerry.
It's not just the houses it's all the other things that go with them.
One of the best aspects of playing golf is the peace and tranquillity of being out on the course.
The lack of noise, movement and the absence of the hurly-burly of everyday life. Take these away and golf becomes a far less appealing game/pastime.
atb
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Sunningdale has some beautiful houses adding to the golf. The old one, over the hill, on the 7th might be the best of them.
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The houses behind and around the 9th green / 10th tee at Royal Lytham really create a nice little corner on the golf course...
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Places like Kiawah Island (River Course) did a great job of having the houses pushed back from the course and the back of the homes, has to look like the front of those homes. When you looked down the fairway, you did not see the homes. I really hate it when build a house directly behind a green. GC of Georgia did a good job also, original owner would not let the homeowners cut down trees that were close to the golf course.
I usually do not mind when homes are only on 1 side of the hole and pushed away.
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I’ll give you two houses on the course, not next to it, that enhance the experience. One is Milton Hershey’s house on #5 at Hershey. The other is the historical house (second oldest in the county) behind #12 at Rolling Green. I believe it adds to the beauty of the hole.
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Simply having houses border the course does not bother me, although a course without them is much better looking. What does bother me is when a real estate course is clearly routed with the intent of maximizing the number of lots that can be sold at a premium as “on the golf course” or to make use of land unsuited for houses. This often in an results in an unwalkable course with long distances between holes, multiple road crossings, and cart paths through yards or between houses. Those of you who design courses likely have comments or stories on this.
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Why does the town of St. Andrews enhance that course? I think almost everyone agrees that it makes 17 and 18 more memorable and better. The shops and hotel are certainly a lot more charming than a suburban McMansion, but is there anything else to it? I wonder if it's just that it's public and busy vs silent and private.
Thinking about this difference may answer the question if a house could ever achieve the things Scottish towns add.
To a certain extent, I think the answer is yes. Using Riviera again, it’s a better golf experience and a more interesting golf course because of the homes surrounding it. Thick walls of trees would add nothing to Riv. It’s exclusivity is all the isolation it needs. The homes and the stories of their owners help you feel part of the action that’s just as native to LA as finishing back in town is to St Andrews.
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I normally hate houses on the golf course. The one place that springs to mind that has houses around it (though well back from the playing areas) is St George's Hill. It helps that they're some of the nicest houses in the country.
I do concur with the Winged Foot example. Didn't Bobby Jones say the 10th on the West was like hitting a long iron into someone's bedroom?
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I normally hate houses on the golf course. The one place that springs to mind that has houses around it (though well back from the playing areas) is St George's Hill. It helps that they're some of the nicest houses in the country.
I do concur with the Winged Foot example. Didn't Bobby Jones say the 10th on the West was like hitting a long iron into someone's bedroom?
Thought that was Hogan as quoted by Dan Jenkins.
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I've always thought that the narrow views of the homes sprinkled around Pine Valley were interesting.
The most dramatic are clearly the mansions alongside (and above) the likes of Sherwood CC, LACC, Bel-Air CC, The Preserve, Mayacama, Maidstone, and Merion. They do provide an enhanced backdrop.
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8) In only one case, otherwise no, I've seen way too many nice courses or parts of courses synoptically destroyed by housing...
I only make exception for when a friend owns the house and serves drink and food to players passing by... can't beat that!
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At Ardglass GC, the house/cottage hard by the 7th green and then the one in the middle of the fairway on the #16 par 5 certainly enhance the golf course.
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At Ardglass GC, the house/cottage hard by the 7th green and then the one in the middle of the fairway on the #16 par 5 certainly enhance the golf course.
Many years ago when I played Ardglass I almost hit one up the ass of a cow on that dogleg hole.
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At Ardglass GC, the house/cottage hard by the 7th green and then the one in the middle of the fairway on the #16 par 5 certainly enhance the golf course.
Many years ago when I played Ardglass I almost hit one up the ass of a cow on that dogleg hole.
There is definitely a LOT going on at Ardglass.
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The 15th tee at Maidstone says yes.
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The Playboy Mansion or Lionel Richie's house certainly adds to the sense of place at LACC!
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Front yards often good - [size=78%]plus you get the benefit of OB being a public street, it’s a lot more romantic to hit a public street than some kids swing set with a wayward drive.[/size]
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I normally hate houses on the golf course. The one place that springs to mind that has houses around it (though well back from the playing areas) is St George's Hill. It helps that they're some of the nicest houses in the country.
Agree on St. George's Hill. The house to the left of the 9th fairway might be my #1 "lottery dream home."
A few contrasting examples from Northern California, in my view, are Pasatiempo and Sea Ranch. The mostly ordinary homes on the former are an unfortunate distraction from a sublime golf course. The unique and unobtrusive homes on the latter are fully part of the experience of visiting Sea Ranch; i.e. many more people drive up the coast to look at the homes than those who go to play golf.
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I normally hate houses on the golf course. The one place that springs to mind that has houses around it (though well back from the playing areas) is St George's Hill. It helps that they're some of the nicest houses in the country.
Agree on St. George's Hill. The house to the left of the 9th fairway might be my #1 "lottery dream home."
A few contrasting examples from Northern California, in my view, are Pasatiempo and Sea Ranch. The mostly ordinary homes on the former are an unfortunate distraction from a sublime golf course. The unique and unobtrusive homes on the latter are fully part of the experience of visiting Sea Ranch; i.e. many more people drive up the coast to look at the homes than those who go to play golf.
Agree on both counts, Jordan, especially Sea Ranch. Great call-out. Those homes were specifically designed to blend in with, complement, and enhance their surroundings. Just like a great golf course. Homes like that, when unobtrusive, can certainly enhance the golf experience.
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When I was a kid I thought the house to the left of the 5th at Spyglass Hill would be the coolest spot to live.
I can’t think of many places where houses enhance the course but there are many that don’t spoil it - there are houses in the property at Pine Valley, houses to the right of the 2nd at Cypress Point, and houses bordering Royal Melbourne, and no one cares.
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There is a course in the Czech Republic that reputedly had a 'house of ill repute' adjoining one of the holes. It certainly enhanced the experience for many patrons!
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Sometimes homes improve the experience but it is rare. Some examples:
1. Indian Canyons North - Palm Springs. The golf course is pedestrian and will not win any awards but the houses are outstanding examples of mid-century modern architecture that give the place a feel of stepping back in time to a groovy Mad-Men era series of pool cocktail parties.
2. The Reserve - Palm Springs. An ordinary Weiskopf design is dramatically improved by the experience of viewing opulent stone exterior houses.
3. Scottish links courses that return to town provide a fabulous sense of place.
4. The "cabins" at Augusta National seem to add to the sense of place.
Generally housing detracts from the experience although I suspect the choice of land used for the course v housing and the resulting compromises in course routing are a big component of that detraction. I have always thought Harbor Town was an example where housing may not add to the exerience but is accomodated and hidden so well that the golf experience is in no way negatively impaceted.
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Definitely.
North Berwick, St. George's Hill.
Even houses occasionally in play are cool. if sparingly(example Pitlochry)
Houses lining both sides generally not cool, but along a perimeter can be cool(Rivierra)
a few mid century 20th homes along TCC were cool this year to me.
Yeaman's Hall another good example
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Some courses that come to mind along this topic:
Mountain Lake - Probably the most harmonious coexistence of homes and golf course I've seen anywhere in a planned community (in other words, TOC and North Berwick and Lahinch are excepted). Part of what makes the place so great is the realization that, whoa, it's (theoretically) possible for this to be your backyard.
Windsor - Very good RTJ2 golf course here in Vero that is integrated with an incredibly thoughtfully planned and great-looking New Urbanist community with West Indies houses. It's one of the most expensive addresses in the golf real estate world but I am at a loss to understand why so few less-expensive communities have even tried that alternative style of housing arrangement.
Turnberry Isle - 36 holes of core golf (a little on the cramped side in places) surrounded by huge condominium towers. It's kind of interesting, kind of eerie playing golf with literally thousands of verandas and windows oriented in your direction.
Currituck - Stands out as having the most obtrusive housing on an otherwise-nice course I've played. On the more scenic holes, the tall condo buildings are BRUTALLY close to the line of play.
Orange Tree - An Orlando club whose corridors are so absurdly compromised by homes and OB stakes that I marvel that anyone could enjoy playing there. It's a shame because the holes themselves are not that bad, just hellaciously tight.
Creighton Farms - Has to have the biggest houses by average square footage of any course I've played (Wexford on Hilton Head would be the runner-up
Golfcrest - Mid-century south-of-Houston club with typical Texas McMansions, but with wildly different architectural styles one to the next (I'm talking pagoda, then Mediterranean, then French Chateau styles all in a row), plus a feature I've not noticed anywhere else: little wee driveways at the back of the garages meant for residents to drive their own golf carts straight onto the course paths.
In general, as long as the houses grant the holes enough width, I'm determined not to let them detract from my enjoyment of the golf. When the golf itself is good, it's easy to ignore the houses. One strong example of that phenomenon here in FL is Lakewood National. The homebuilder granted Brandon Johnson enough room to build 36 reeeeeeally fun, varied and compelling golf holes, so it's easy to ignore the fact that the homes that surround it are of the typical modern Florida variety. I'd be thrilled to play both those courses regularly.
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It appears that houses almost universally do not enhance a golf course. Have others seen a course which they really liked and then houses were built which really detracted from the golfing experience?
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I would posit that the one exception to this is Mrs. Formans, assuming that public houses counts a houses. But, alas, it is no more.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scottishgolfhistory.org%2Fassets%2FUploads%2F_resampled%2FResizedImage600371-Mrs-Formans-1900-C.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
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When I was a kid I thought the house to the left of the 5th at Spyglass Hill would be the coolest spot to live.
Shareen’s Dream! Only problem is the wind blows in the, uh, scent from Seal Rock a few hundred yards out to sea.
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Jason, Indian Canyons North is one of my favorite places for this very reason, thanks for adding it here. Tahquitz Creek’s Legends, also in PS and also Wm. Bell, Jr., has the same atmosphere for me even if the homes would not quite do for the men at the top of Sterling Cooper. The same retro vibe goes for Cathedral Canyon (D. Rainville) in Cathedral City, at least for me.
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Call me an old fogey, but I do not like houses on golf courses -- no enhancement. I would make exception for historic venues where buildings can be considered part of the environment (as others have noted, the Old Course fits that bill). I've been watching the USGA Women's Amateur at Chambers Bay and am reminded of how much I like the trains as part of that environment. Obviously this is not a historic situation, since the course is a new one, but for me it works. I've never played the course, but have seen it from the other side, the tracks, on a couple of passenger car trips between Seattle and Portland.
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It appears that houses almost universally do not enhance a golf course. Have others seen a course which they really liked and then houses were built which really detracted from the golfing experience?
I think I have a good example - Laurel Creek in South Jersey. It’s a Palmer design built to be an upscale private club. There were no houses and it was quite good. It didn’t make it, and was bought by Toll Brothers and turned into a housing project. Big deterioration.
Bent Creek, a Reece Jones in Lancaster, PA is a similar story.
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Bent Creek, a Reece Jones in Lancaster, PA is a similar story.
Jim,
Bent Creek is a Morrish/Weiskopf not Rees
I've only played it once the houses were built but I heard the same from a number of people, ie that the houses took something away from it. Personally, I don't hate them there or think they take away from it too much but there are a few spots where it looks a bit resorty as they are right up against the course.
Personally I think I can see a course for what it is with or without houses. Although saying that I also think that driving though a development to get to the next hole rather than nature, creates the perception of a course being lessor as it creates that resorty feel ie it was built rather than designed. I don't really get that from Bent Creek but I have definitely experienced it at Fla and Az courses where it feels the course routing was second to the houses not the other way.
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The lighthouse on/adjacent to Pacific Grove is kinda cool and in my opinion, adds character. Can't think of any other instance where I'd prefer seeing residential houses to seeing untouched land, even if the houses are architecturally interesting.
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Housing is basically a frame for the picture. Ornate framing usually doesn't work. The frame has to work with the picture.
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There's the frame--and the margins (see Derrida).
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1. Half-way houses? Yes.
2. Out-houses? Yes, sometimes it's a challenge to relieve oneself on course.
3. Pump-house? Yes, the super loves his irrigation system!
4. Clubhouses? Yes, great place to gather.
That about covers the need for houses I should think...;-)
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When I was a kid I thought the house to the left of the 5th at Spyglass Hill would be the coolest spot to live.
During my treasured round at MPCC, Bob Huntley said that house changes hands frequently. The setting is spactacular but the smell from the upwind seals and birds is horrible.
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Aren't there homes that abut a few holes at Mid-Ocean Club? I'm assuming either the landscape screening prevents visual intrusion or the Bermuda style architecture enhances the visual?
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What would Hogan have aimed at if there wasn’t a house beyond #10 at Winged Foot? What fun is #17 at The Old Course if you can’t skirt or carry the shed/hotel with your tee shot? How much less scary is #18 at North Berwick if there we no cars/homes just right of the green? Who can’t picture Donald Ross sitting on his porch as you walk up the 3rd hole at Pinehurst #2? How can you play Belair and not be thinking about "my mansion is bigger than your mansion".,,, ;D
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(https://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/images/thumbs/slideshow/northberwick/670x400/0-0-0-0/1/19_63.jpg)
(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5e6a7467ca178c668c7377c5/604635945238b1d3cb42feb6_Golf-Club-Prestwick.jpg)
Not sure if these qualify. But the top one is my ipad background. I used to have a photo that someone posted of Prestwick that I thought looked amazing, with houses on the surrounds. The above photo is similar, but not quite there.
Rich Goodale, RIP, did a My Home Course on Dornoch, and I teased him about it just being another housing development course, due to a few photos he included.
I do love the quaint surroundings for older UK courses.
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I have only played the Country Club of Detroit once; however, the mansions in the front 9 did not detract from my experience and I found myself enjoying the course and the housing. IMO many things when done well can work together- the housing on CCD is done well and is well off all of the fairways.
Chris