Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Paul Jones on August 08, 2022, 08:41:22 AM
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Looking for examples where a Par 4 or 5 hole is a really good and completely straight hole.
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8) ;D
How about better than "good"
The second hole at Pine Valley is dead straight, short and one of the best holes I've ever played..
PVGC sycophant lol
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8) ;D
The second hole at Pine Valley is dead straight, short and one of the best holes I've ever played..
PVGC sycophant lol
Archie,
That is a good call because the bunkers are on both sides and in front of the green, so it does not play like a dogleg.
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What do you classify as completely straight? Would the 10th at Riv or the 15th at Augusta be classified as straight?
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What do you classify as completely straight? Would the 10th at Riv or the 15th at Augusta be classified as straight?
Standing in the middle of the tee box and you look straight... you will be looking at the middle of the green.
The 7th at ANGC is a straight hole. The 15th is not, it is a slight dogleg left.
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I think there are loads of good examples of completely straight - and great - holes where bunkers, hazards and green orientation are used to define playing lines.
There are less examples of great, straight holes where this isn’t the case. Because almost by definition, these holes are either less interesting or penal by design.
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Seems like several straight holes that are great at Beverly - likely a function of the rectangular workspace. But I will nominate the 7th hole as I find it difficult to make a straight par 5 interesting and this hole is certainly interesting.
From the tee box (575 from the tips) you cannot technically see the middle of the green, because all you can see is heartbreak hill. After cresting the hill, you have a decision to make on your second shot. Large bunkers hog the middle of the fairway, starting about 80 years from the front of the green. Avoiding the dreaded mid-length bunker shot causes many of us to lay up to just short of the bunkers, leaving a 100 yard shot to the middle of the green that has a nice hump in the middle, directing balls in all directions, with the rough shaved down on the right taking balls all the way to the 8th tee.
The 7th has a lot of what we profess to enjoy in a golf hole/course. Dramatic movement in the land, a fun/challenging green at the end, and thoughtful bunkering along the way.
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I think there are loads of good examples of completely straight - and great - holes where bunkers, hazards and green orientation are used to define playing lines.
There are less examples of great, straight holes where this isn’t the case. Because almost by definition, these holes are either less interesting or penal by design.
Ally,
I started thinking about all my favorite holes, then I realized non were straight. Then I started to think of a great hole that was straight and started to struggle.
Please let me know which ones you think are great. I have played quite a few courses, but I have not play Beverly so I cannot comment on Tim Fitz post.
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What do you classify as completely straight? Would the 10th at Riv or the 15th at Augusta be classified as straight?
Standing in the middle of the tee box and you look straight... you will be looking at the middle of the green.
The 7th at ANGC is a straight hole. The 15th is not, it is a slight dogleg left.
Sure looks straight...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wdNHQhLpxJ2MytBqvTQbbluykIvazd93ec4ISrj3wh2sfvukCKGH9cq0P8ljc3xdZIk5jV5qQBdbRhQvtfsWxlBydbL63iENkBdFYJ3ia7AtYo48EeAuEU3uK46nlNaYsgR_PD8Tvv8=w2400)
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Second hole at Cabot Cliffs. Sixteenth hole at Cabot Links.
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Would the Foxy 14th at RDGC be one for consideration??
Atb
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I think there are loads of good examples of completely straight - and great - holes where bunkers, hazards and green orientation are used to define playing lines.
There are less examples of great, straight holes where this isn’t the case. Because almost by definition, these holes are either less interesting or penal by design.
Ally,
I started thinking about all my favorite holes, then I realized non were straight. Then I started to think of a great hole that was straight and started to struggle.
Please let me know which ones you think are great. I have played quite a few courses, but I have not play Beverly so I cannot comment on Tim Fitz post.
Hi Paul,
I guess it depends on your definition of straight, hence my original point. Most of the holes on The Old Course (or many out and back routings) are ostensibly straight for instance.
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What do you classify as completely straight? Would the 10th at Riv or the 15th at Augusta be classified as straight?
Standing in the middle of the tee box and you look straight... you will be looking at the middle of the green.
The 7th at ANGC is a straight hole. The 15th is not, it is a slight dogleg left.
Sure looks straight...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wdNHQhLpxJ2MytBqvTQbbluykIvazd93ec4ISrj3wh2sfvukCKGH9cq0P8ljc3xdZIk5jV5qQBdbRhQvtfsWxlBydbL63iENkBdFYJ3ia7AtYo48EeAuEU3uK46nlNaYsgR_PD8Tvv8=w2400)
Ben,
That does look pretty darn straight :-). I guess what threw me is you cannot see the green from the tee box and it plays like a slight dogleg from the middle of the fairway when trying to avoid the trees on the left. It is a straight hole.
That got me thinking there are probably more holes that are good/great that I might not be aware are straight since not able to see the green from the tee.
They also moved the 15th tee back, over a little and lowered it last year.
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1st hole at Mid Pines.
14th at OFCC North/ 3rd hole at OFCC North.
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Pacific Dunes #13 looks pretty straight on Google Maps.
On the flip side, was there any architect who built fewer straight holes than Stranz? Just looked at 3 of his courses and only found 1 straight hole, and one other that maybe could be argued such.
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Pebble #6
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Pebble #6
I am going to have to change my definition of a straight hole :) . It is straight if you go for the green in 2 shots, otherwise the upper fairway is a different angle. Once again, cannot see the green from the tee. It is a great hole.
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Talking Stick (O'odham) #2 and #3. aka Talking Stick North
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Pebble #6
I am going to have to change my definition of a straight hole :) . It is straight if you go for the green in 2 shots, otherwise the upper fairway is a different angle. Once again, cannot see the green from the tee. It is a great hole.
Well hold on here, your second shot layup can still be played on the direct line from tee to green. Admittedly you'd be aiming for the right side of the fairway and you'd have to hit maybe one club more to make sure you clear the edge of the cliff. I'm too lazy to try to post a Google Earth screenshot as evidence, but it's certainly possible to play it as a dead-straight three-shotter.
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Cape Kidnappers par 5 15th. Dead straight and thrilling at the same time.
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Pebble #6
I am going to have to change my definition of a straight hole :) . It is straight if you go for the green in 2 shots, otherwise the upper fairway is a different angle. Once again, cannot see the green from the tee. It is a great hole.
Well hold on here, your second shot layup can still be played on the direct line from tee to green. Admittedly you'd be aiming for the right side of the fairway and you'd have to hit maybe one club more to make sure you clear the edge of the cliff. I'm too lazy to try to post a Google Earth screenshot as evidence, but it's certainly possible to play it as a dead-straight three-shotter.
It is possible, but not the way the hole was designed... or maybe it was? I need to change my definition :-)
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Killiecrankie #7 at Cape Breton Highlands Links
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Pacific Dunes #13 looks pretty straight on Google Maps.
On the flip side, was there any architect who built fewer straight holes than Stranz? Just looked at 3 of his courses and only found 1 straight hole, and one other that maybe could be argued such.
A lot of my best holes are straight, but you generally play left or right of center depending on your ability.
The first hole I thought of seeing the title of this thread was the 16th at The Old Course. It's straight, IF you can avoid the bunkers that are straight in the middle.
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And seeing TD's name made me think of the 1st at Crystal Downs -- as 'straightaway' a Par 4 as you can find, if memory serves, except that it is a long Par 4, and from the tee you get a magnificent view of the front 9, and then you get your first taste of the CD greens, where I found myself not far above the hole in two fine shots, and then 3 putted (or it may have even been 4 putted, I have blocked it out!)
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What I am learning from this exercise is that most holes that are straight and really good, you cannot see the green from the tee. At least the holes that I have played that were mentioned above.
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Seems like several straight holes that are great at Beverly - likely a function of the rectangular workspace. But I will nominate the 7th hole as I find it difficult to make a straight par 5 interesting and this hole is certainly interesting.
From the tee box (575 from the tips) you cannot technically see the middle of the green, because all you can see is heartbreak hill. After cresting the hill, you have a decision to make on your second shot. Large bunkers hog the middle of the fairway, starting about 80 years from the front of the green. Avoiding the dreaded mid-length bunker shot causes many of us to lay up to just short of the bunkers, leaving a 100 yard shot to the middle of the green that has a nice hump in the middle, directing balls in all directions, with the rough shaved down on the right taking balls all the way to the 8th tee.
The 7th has a lot of what we profess to enjoy in a golf hole/course. Dramatic movement in the land, a fun/challenging green at the end, and thoughtful bunkering along the way.
Tim,
I agree regarding 7 at Bev. The other ones at Bev that I prefer are #5 , 14, and 16. At Blue Mound #2 and 8 are world class in my opinion. They have some of Raynor's best template greens- Double Plateau and PunchBowl. Very special holes indeed.
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What I am learning from this exercise is that most holes that are straight and really good, you cannot see the green from the tee. At least the holes that I have played that were mentioned above.
Paul, If you get a chance look up 5,14,and 16 at Beverly. Also 8 at Blue Mound -it's all right in front of you.
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What I am learning from this exercise is that most holes that are straight and really good, you cannot see the green from the tee. At least the holes that I have played that were mentioned above.
Paul, If you get a chance look up 5,14,and 16 at Beverly. Also 8 at Blue Mound -it's all right in front of you.
I agree Jack - terrific golf holes. Again, at least with 5 & 16, there is some dramatic movement in the land. 14 is a temptress given its length, but the treacherous bunkers and a green that seems to defy gravity at times, makes for a great short 4.
Beverly’s routing was limited by the two rectangles. Perhaps we are blessed with more wonder straight holes than most because in some cases the only routing available was straight.
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I played a cracker today. The par 5 13th at Silloth. Not only is it straight and you can see the green from the tee but it also doesn't have any bunkers.
Niall
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15 at RSG is dead straight. The flag is typically a good line from the tee. 18 is also pretty much dead straight. Down the road from there is RCP - 1 is straight, 3 is straight, 12 is straight - all really good holes.
At Shinnecock, 10, 12 and 16 all look pretty much dead straight. 16 is an interesting one because the fairway snakes all over the place, but if you play it in the natural three shots, then each one you would be aiming at the green.
5, 8 and 9 are also all dead straight at NGLA. I feel like there's lots of really good straight holes. Though I must admit some that I thought were straight aren't quite. 15 at PV is the one that I thought was a good example of a super long hole that's straight, but it turns slightly right at the end.
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I find it an enlightening topic because I thought too that most of my favorite holes are doglegs or curve noticeably. In thinking about it, there are several holes that I would never have guessed are actually straight:
Ballyneal 2 and 8
Friar’s Head 15 and 16
Yale 1
Pac Dunes 3, 6, and 15
Ballybunion 7
Brora 10 and 17
NB 16
PH2 14
Pasatiempo 14
Sleepy Hollow 8
Golspie 8 and 15
RD 5
Somerset Hills 5 and 7
Lahinch 9
Ira
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Ira
I think there's a difference between the playing corridor being a straight rectangle and the hole actually playing straight. I don't know what category the holes you listed come into.
Niall
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7th at NSWGC.. Mackenzie more known for his doglegs but this a good one..
It's all uphill so you can see the green from the tee...
https://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/australia/newsouthwales/large/New%20South%20Wales%207th.jpg
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I would like to nominate Hole 10 at St. Enodoch. ;)
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Ira
I think there's a difference between the playing corridor being a straight rectangle and the hole actually playing straight. I don't know what category the holes you listed come into.
Niall
Niall,
That is what made me scratch my head. On several I listed, the best line is not necessarily straight even though the hole actually is straight. That is what strikes me as making them good holes. And I forgot to include Woking 4 which may define the point.
Ira
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Ira
Absolutely. The playing corridors are straight but often what makes a good hole is that the best line isn't necessarily straight up the middle of the playing corridor.
Tom D pointed out years ago that when you look at aerials of old classic courses the playing corridors are usually pretty straight and regular in shape yet on the ground the hole doesn't play that way. In contrast an aerial of some modern courses show all different shapes with some sharp dog-legs. Whether the dog-leg involves playing anything than up the middle of the playing corridor is often debatable.
Niall
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Ira
Absolutely. The playing corridors are straight but often what makes a good hole is that the best line isn't necessarily straight up the middle of the playing corridor.
Tom D pointed out years ago that when you look at aerials of old classic courses the playing corridors are usually pretty straight and regular in shape yet on the ground the hole doesn't play that way. In contrast an aerial of some modern courses show all different shapes with some sharp dog-legs. Whether the dog-leg involves playing anything than up the middle of the playing corridor is often debatable.
Niall
This is what I was getting at with my reply no.5.
Your final point is also well noted. Many modern designs have more deliberate doglegs. It’s often easy to think that this is down to architects designing in defined turning points at 250m on the topo and then creating their hole around that.
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I think there are loads of good examples of completely straight - and great - holes where bunkers, hazards and green orientation are used to define playing lines.
There are less examples of great, straight holes where this isn’t the case. Because almost by definition, these holes are either less interesting or penal by design.
Ally,
I started thinking about all my favorite holes, then I realized non were straight. Then I started to think of a great hole that was straight and started to struggle.
Please let me know which ones you think are great. I have played quite a few courses, but I have not play Beverly so I cannot comment on Tim Fitz post.
Hi Paul,
I guess it depends on your definition of straight, hence my original point. Most of the holes on The Old Course (or many out and back routings) are ostensibly straight for instance.
Ally is right. Straight can be function of how far the ball is hit. You get a hole like 5 at Sandwich. It's a bit of a legger left. For big boys in the right conditions it's a straight hole. There is no dogleg.
Ciao
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As Yogi Berra once said, 90% of them par 3's are straight
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Howdy Paul
The straight hole most bendy at Wolf Point would be the 5th.
Standing on the tee you can see a straight path to the green, although the fairway bends around infierno.
The others that are straight: 1, 2, 3, 4, 13, 14 & 16. someone has said every one of those was great.
How many of the Old Course's holes are straight?
Cheers
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Howdy Paul
The straight hole most bendy at Wolf Point would be the 5th.
Standing on the tee you can see a straight path to the green, although the fairway bends around infierno.
The others that are straight: 1, 2, 3, 4, 13, 14 & 16. someone has said every one of those was great.
How many of the Old Course's holes are straight?
Cheers
I really love 4 at Wolf Point. Yes it's straight, but each time I've played it the wind has been strong from left to right. To avoid the junk on the right and the fairway bunkers, you can aim as far left as you want; you can practically turn it into a 90 degree dogleg if you like. But then you have zero hope of getting your approach anywhere near the hole thanks to the mound off the left side of the green and everything running to the right.
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Howdy Paul
The straight hole most bendy at Wolf Point would be the 5th.
Standing on the tee you can see a straight path to the green, although the fairway bends around infierno.
The others that are straight: 1, 2, 3, 4, 13, 14 & 16. someone has said every one of those was great.
How many of the Old Course's holes are straight?
Cheers
Mike,
Hole 1 is a great example as you have water on the left and 100s yards to the right, but the further from the water, the more difficult angle into the green.
You all have listed a lot of great straight holes, especially links golf.
I guess I do not consider a hole straight if the fairway bends. Pete Dye often would let you see the green from the tee, but made you play around something to get to the green.
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I find it an enlightening topic because I thought too that most of my favorite holes are doglegs or curve noticeably. In thinking about it, there are several holes that I would never have guessed are actually straight:
Ballyneal 2 and 8
When you started this thread, I immediately thought of Bally 2 as the only candidate on the property. Looked at it on google maps -if your playing the back tee boxes it is. And surprisingly 8 is, mentally I passed it over as not straight.
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13 at Elie
10, 14, 18 at Muirfield
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9th at Pine valley especially if you are playing the left green
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From a few recent plays:
#9 and #17 at Riviera are both dead straight. Both have staggered bunkers in the fairway and an elevated green with multiple sections directing play. #12 ~feels~ dead straight, though the aerial makes it seem like a slight dogleg right. W
#1 'Valley' and #12 'Punchbowl' at Chicago are among my favorites on the course. CGC has quite a few more straight holes, but these two are standouts.
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On a property with expertly nuanced dogleg angles and sublime fairway margin turns, the WF course boast five fine straight away holes, two of them standout half pars...
6 9, and 11 West; 2 & 10 East
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Adding one more that I recently played that may only partially count. The Chanel Hole (#4) at Lido is a straight shot from tee to green…if you have the length. For mere mortals like me there is a longer, but safer route to get there. Not sure if it falls into the “straight hole” category or not, but I assume some golfers will take the most direct approach and hope they have the length to get to the first fairway and then to clear the bunkers and climb the hill to the green on the approach.
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10th hole, “Carries” at Yale. An overlook, sometimes maligned hole but one of my favorite holes on the course.
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The 14th hole at TPC Sawgrass
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The par 5 17th at Prairie Dunes is dead straight and dead solid perfect.
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I often cite #13 at the Stanford Golf Course as a fine golf hole. It's both straight and rather flat, with five well placed bunkers and a green that encourages an approach from the left side of the wide fairway. It could be built anywhere and work.
It's not unlike the 9th hole at Riviera, which was designed by the same architect.
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Oakmont seems to have a lot that meet the test.
#1, #3, #7, #9, #10, #18. There are others that are debatable.