Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ben Hollerbach on August 01, 2022, 04:34:45 PM
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In the world of limited time, limited space, and novel socialization it would seem that a Pitch and Putt course would be a perfect option. Great for beginners and families, still challenging for the established player, doesn't take too long to play, and doesn't require much equipment. For as much land as a TopGolf occupies you could build something like a Butler Pitch and Putt (https://butlerpitchandputt.com/).
So, this begs the questions; why is there not a, let alone many, Pitch and Putt courses in every major city? Why would a course of this type succeed in your town and why would it fail?
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In the world of limited time, limited space, and novel socialization it would seem that a Pitch and Putt course would be a perfect option. Great for beginners and families, still challenging for the established player, doesn't take too long to play, and doesn't require much equipment. For as much land as a TopGolf occupies you could build something like a Butler Pitch and Putt (https://butlerpitchandputt.com/).
So, this begs the questions; why is there not a, let alone many, Pitch and Putt courses in every major city? Why would a course of this type succeed in your town and why would it fail?
Ben:
It would probably be better to start with some examples of where they were thriving and profitable.
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Tom,
That’s kind of my point.
They are so much more common in the UK and nearly nonexistent in the States. Beyond Butler in Austin and Flushing Meadow in NYC there seems to be so very, very few.
The stark absence of Pitch and Putt courses in the states seems significant, I’m just trying to learn why.
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Our local university course had one but then converted it into a driving range. The range has a line of around 200 yards and is packed over the noon hour and in the evenings during the week and packed all day on the weekend.
It is not a nice range but the money it brings in must be orders of magnitude larger than it was when it was a par three course.
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This project looks very interesting. A par three course with a focus on accessibility for disabled people. I spoke with one of the people behind the project and hope it is successful.
https://www.barrierfreegolf.com/theloop
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Ben,
When I was a kid (many, many years ago), there was a lighted Pitch and Putt close to O’Hare Airport. It was our version of Top Golf. But you can imagine with land values being what they are, having a limit on the number of players given the sequential nature of such a course does not work from an economics perspective. Top Golf (actually never been) probably can have at least 5x the customers at any one point plus the food and beverage is right at hand. Areas where land is less costly might work, but then the population density limits the client base. I have not played the Schoolhouse Nine which seems closer to an Executive Course than Pitch and Putt, but even though it is in a sparsely populated area seems to thrive more as a community initiative than a business enterprise.
Ira
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This project looks very interesting. A par three course with a focus on accessibility for disabled people. I spoke with one of the people behind the project and hope it is successful.
https://www.barrierfreegolf.com/theloop (https://www.barrierfreegolf.com/theloop)
A great idea.
Ira
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Interesting topic.
Here in Salt Lake County there are several 9 hole, par 33 to 36, courses and 3 of them have an additional pitch and putt 9.
But there is only pitch and putt 9 and its part of a private club that includes a grill, tennis courts, pool, and social gathering areas...and currently has a waiting list to boot.
P.S. In all my travels around the Western US, I only recall two stand-alone pitch and putt courses and one is NLE for quite awhile now.
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Portland, OR has Colwood Golf Center. Part of Portland Parks Bureau and operated by Kemper sports. It has a 9 hole par 3 course, a six hole practice course and a lighted range. https://colwoodgolf.com/
Constructed on five holes of the NLE Vern Macan Colwood National course. Had an affinity for the old course as that was the scene of my first hole-in-one, and later my only (non-calloway scored) tournament victory.
I started golfing at Hoyt Park Pitch & Putt, deceased because of infrastructure for the Portland Zoo and original OMSI
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I've always understood them to be a tough deal because the most expensive parts (greens, then tees) are still there, but people expect to pay very little to play. They get beat up, too, because more people hit the greens and hit wedges and shorter irons from the tees. So… they're expensive to maintain for the price you can charge, and thus, they're not super easy to make profitable.
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Here in the SF Bay area, the renovation of Corica Park (Alameda muni) included the creation of a 9-hole par 3 course. It gets around the issue of wear & tear on the tee boxes by using mats.
https://www.coricapark.com/mif-par-3/
The Mariners Point Golf Center in Foster City has a 9-hole par-3 course that is lit for night play. It is a large complex with driving range, short-game practice areas, club-fitting service, etc.
https://www.marinerspoint.com
And much worse for wear, the 9-hole par-3 at the west end of Golden Gate Park continues to soldier on, offering an entry point into the game for people learning to play golf.
https://goldengateparkgolf.com/
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Arroyo Seco in Pasadena has been around for a long time. Played many nighttime rounds there back in the late 80s while in college. Nothing special about any of the holes but it was always crowded back then.
http://www.arroyosecogc.com/
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Nassau County opened up a county park pitch-and-putt in 2015 at Nickerson Beach, nine short holes playing over the dunes not far from Lido. Unlike the typical P&P, or at least the other local ones, Nickerson has some interesting elements -- a punchbowl-style green, mounding, moat bunker, waste-area carry, etc. There was some thought put into the design. I wrote about it in 2018 and the Fried Egg did as well in 2019, expressing a similar sentiment to Ben's original post, about how this type of course with tiny acreage could/should be a part of many towns and cities.
For whatever reason, Nassau chose to do next to nothing to promote it, so to about 98% of county golfers, it simply doesn't exist. I didn't even know about it until about two years after it opened, when I stumbled across the original county press release. Fast forward to this past spring, while talking to some local golfers for a piece on Lido, we got to talking about Nickerson, and the vibe I got was that the course had been neglected and in disrepair. I took a ride out there one day in April (pre-season for the park, so I was told to just go play, as no one is manning the course) and they were right. Chewed up greens, weedy traps, gnarled wooden boards (walking paths).
Now, the park/county did just post a few weeks ago that Nickerson is open for the season, with pics of cosmetic and grounds repairs on the course. I'll have to go see for myself when I have an hour to kill. That's the good thing about these courses -- you can play in an hour, take your kid (I took my 5-yo daughter there for her first-ever "round," and she's been into golf ever since), and have a great time. Not sure if this is Nassau's plan -- leave the course neglected for nine months then spruce it up for beach season -- but I sure hope it's not. Seems like a good amenity wasted.
All in all, I don't know the economics, but it seems to me a 10-acre P&P with some intelligent design and a mildly competent social media poster should work in many places around the country, even if confined to municipal city and county parks.
https://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2018/06/flyover-nickerson-dunes-pitch-putt.html
https://thefriedegg.com/nickerson-dunes-review/
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8)
When we were kids we often played pitch and putt at the Golf Farm in Gibbsboro , NJ. It was simple and fun with the longest hole being about 40 yards. They mandated play off the mat tees so the maintenance issues were minimized to some extent. Great fun and definitely sharpened your short game.
Don't know why it isn't more popular as it used to be busy weeknights and packed on weekends.
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8)
When we were kids we often played pitch and putt at the Golf Farm in Gibbsboro , NJ. It was simple and fun with the longest hole being about 40 yards. They mandated play off the mat tees so the maintenance issues were minimized to some extent. Great fun and definitely sharpened your short game.
Don't know why it isn't more popular as it used to be busy weeknights and packed on weekends.
It's still there, Archie, though I haven't been in years.
https://golflandnj.com/
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Nassau County opened up a county park pitch-and-putt in 2015 at Nickerson Beach, nine short holes playing over the dunes not far from Lido. Unlike the typical P&P, or at least the other local ones, Nickerson has some interesting elements -- a punchbowl-style green, mounding, moat bunker, waste-area carry, etc. There was some thought put into the design. I wrote about it in 2018 and the Fried Egg did as well in 2019, expressing a similar sentiment to Ben's original post, about how this type of course with tiny acreage could/should be a part of many towns and cities.
For whatever reason, Nassau chose to do next to nothing to promote it, so to about 98% of county golfers, it simply doesn't exist. I didn't even know about it until about two years after it opened, when I stumbled across the original county press release. Fast forward to this past spring, while talking to some local golfers for a piece on Lido, we got to talking about Nickerson, and the vibe I got was that the course had been neglected and in disrepair. I took a ride out there one day in April (pre-season for the park, so I was told to just go play, as no one is manning the course) and they were right. Chewed up greens, weedy traps, gnarled wooden boards (walking paths).
Now, the park/county did just post a few weeks ago that Nickerson is open for the season, with pics of cosmetic and grounds repairs on the course. I'll have to go see for myself when I have an hour to kill. That's the good thing about these courses -- you can play in an hour, take your kid (I took my 5-yo daughter there for her first-ever "round," and she's been into golf ever since), and have a great time. Not sure if this is Nassau's plan -- leave the course neglected for nine months then spruce it up for beach season -- but I sure hope it's not. Seems like a good amenity wasted.
All in all, I don't know the economics, but it seems to me a 10-acre P&P with some intelligent design and a mildly competent social media poster should work in many places around the country, even if confined to municipal city and county parks.
https://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2018/06/flyover-nickerson-dunes-pitch-putt.html (https://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2018/06/flyover-nickerson-dunes-pitch-putt.html)
https://thefriedegg.com/nickerson-dunes-review/ (https://thefriedegg.com/nickerson-dunes-review/)
Phil,
If you haven't already, you should check out the Robert Moses P&P on Fire Island. It is a beautiful little course, and probably the best P&P I have seen. 18 holes, usually in good condition, with holes from roughly 50 to 120 yards. Nearby Cedar Beach also has a P&P, which is also fun, albeit not as good as Robert Moses.
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Phil,
If you haven't already, you should check out the Robert Moses P&P on Fire Island. It is a beautiful little course, and probably the best P&P I have seen. 18 holes, usually in good condition, with holes from roughly 50 to 120 yards. Nearby Cedar Beach also has a P&P, which is also fun, albeit not as good as Robert Moses.
Been to Robert Moses, very nice and scenic. Like you said, Cedar Beach is a notch below RM, but good for what it is. There's been chatter that the town wants to reduce it to nine.
Thanks to the location of my daughter's dance school, my go-to is the P&P/par-3 course at Sumpwams Creek in Babylon. Very solid nine short holes that can be played and enjoyed in a pinch.
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Herbert Strong designed a 2000 yard par 32 course for the private gated community of Sherwood Forest near Annapolis MD. There is no public access. It has been twenty years since I have been there so I don't know how much it is utilized now but it was busy when I played it.
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In Jupiter Fla, there is an 18 hole, 2200 yard par three, with holes ranging from 67 to 170 yards. It’s quite fun.
https://www.jupiterdunesgolf.net/ (https://www.jupiterdunesgolf.net/)
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8)
When we were kids we often played pitch and putt at the Golf Farm in Gibbsboro , NJ. It was simple and fun with the longest hole being about 40 yards. They mandated play off the mat tees so the maintenance issues were minimized to some extent. Great fun and definitely sharpened your short game.
Don't know why it isn't more popular as it used to be busy weeknights and packed on weekends.
I was going to mention the Golf Farm. I grew up in Voorhees and went to Eastern HS, and I'm not sure I'd be playing golf if not for the accessibility of Golf Farm and Kresson GC. My parents used to drop me off at both places for hours and hours and it was never uncomfortable in any way.
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I have been remiss not to visit in many trips to LA, but I had always heard the Armand Hammer Pony Course in Holmby Park was entertaining and that UCLA golfers were occasionally seen there in Corey Pavin's era. It always lists Bell as the architect
https://www.golfnow.com/courses/-3686-armand-hammerholmby-park-pony-golf-course-details
I can't remember whether it was just putting-miniature golf or not, but I enjoyed the mini grass course at WGHoF
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8) It should work anywhere there's some isolated land that isn't too expensive and can be coupled with some other attractions... and a kid worker corps...
Back in the 60's, we used to get dropped off at the Monroe and Talmadge intersection in Toledo where there was Brown's Par 3 & driving range on NW corner, a Pitch and Putt (& Bat-Bat + arcade) across street on SW corner, and a Putt-Putt on SE corner... short game heaven and hell, was a great time for many summers of adventure and fun, highly recommend it...
but land became too valuable and fell to "progress" ... easy to see history repeating itself elsewhere, but nice while it lasts
https://www.toledohistorybox.com/2016/07/22/par-3-at-talmadge-and-monroe-photos/
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but land became too valuable and fell to "progress" ... easy to see history repeating itself elsewhere, but nice while it lasts
So would an aversion to progress help?
The Butler Pitch and Putt in Austin, cited in the opening post of this thread, is in an area of Austin that has become extraordinarily expensive even by a city that has seen a lot of growth in home prices. It's adjacent to Zilker Park and just across the river from downtown. Homes in its immediate vicinity are easily 7 figures. A pitch and putt is probably the least profitable use of that land. I hope it stays, it's a super-cool spot and a fun thing to do. Even for non-golfers, it's got to be somewhat reassuring to see that things from a bygone era are still around in a city that has grown as quickly as Austin has. And I've never heard about it being under threat of closure or rezoning. But certainly other cities would have considered other uses for it. To add a pitch and putt in a central area of a large city certainly seems like it would be a tough sell!
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I understand that pitch-n-putt is very popular in Ireland with inter-club matches, national events etc. Shane Lowry has commented on how it was p-n-p that got him started in the game. Others too I suspect.
Perhaps someone form the Emerald Isle could explain its popularity?
Atb
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From a UK perspective most cities had pitch and putt courses from the 60s and they were municipal type operations very cheap to play and aimed at getting people into the sport (it was how I started) but they started to get closed in the 80s when councils started looking at their budgets and realising how much they were costing/loosing. In Bristol we had 5 in the mid 70s, now we have just 1 but it is 36 holes, its the 9 holers that did the worse.
So like many things it is down to cost. As a bolt on to an existing facility they can work but as a stand alone then NO.
7 days a week equals about 100 hours of being open so at minimum wage that's £1050 per week for the man/lady in the ticket office. You would need 1 Greenkeeper so say £500 per week...add a bit fuel, energy cost, machines another £500 you are looking at a cost to operate of £100,000 per year before any rent/rate. If you charge £6, you need to do a lot of rounds to get back level. HENCE why they close.
9 hole par 3 courses can work at existing facilities because many of those costs get zeroed out. The secret of financial success/get lots of play for a par 3 course is the holes must be very easy and encouraging so to allow the first timer to play. Island greens and forced carries, bunkers are the NO-NOs.
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I understand that pitch-n-putt is very popular in Ireland with inter-club matches, national events etc. Shane Lowry has commented on how it was p-n-p that got him started in the game. Others too I suspect.
Perhaps someone form the Emerald Isle could explain its popularity?
Atb
Yes, in Ireland P n P is a separate game from "proper golf". It can be very serious. They have a separate union with comps and championships. They use a heavy ball so greens can be very small! It's tough.
Ciao
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When I was a kid growing up in Durham, NC there were three par 3 courses in town; all three are long gone now. Two of the sites have houses on them, and the third is retail space. It’s just money.
Low cost to the consumer means low revenue to the operator, UNLESS you are getting Walmart type volume, and par 3’s just don’t. Most golf courses depend on a regular clientele, whether it’s members, or “avid” regulars, or resort guests, etc, and those sorts are looking to play “full size” golf. If your business model depends on casual, occasional golfers, good luck.
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When I was a kid growing up in Durham, NC there were three par 3 courses in town; all three are long gone now. Two of the sites have houses on them, and the third is retail space. It’s just money.
Low cost to the consumer means low revenue to the operator, UNLESS you are getting Walmart type volume, and par 3’s just don’t. Most golf courses depend on a regular clientele, whether it’s members, or “avid” regulars, or resort guests, etc, and those sorts are looking to play “full size” golf. If your business model depends on casual, occasional golfers, good luck.
Good points and also THE CLIENTELE that play pitch and putt golf are very likely to go one of two ways.
1. Give Up for Various reasons
2. Like it, get better and move on to full size golf....so their success actually means you lose a customer.
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I understand that pitch-n-putt is very popular in Ireland with inter-club matches, national events etc. Shane Lowry has commented on how it was p-n-p that got him started in the game. Others too I suspect.
Perhaps someone form the Emerald Isle could explain its popularity?
Atb
Yes, in Ireland P n P is a separate game from "proper golf". It can be very serious. They have a separate union with comps and championships. They use a heavy ball so greens can be very small! It's tough.
Ciao
Curious about this ‘heavy ball’. Any more info?
Atb
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I understand that pitch-n-putt is very popular in Ireland with inter-club matches, national events etc. Shane Lowry has commented on how it was p-n-p that got him started in the game. Others too I suspect.
Perhaps someone form the Emerald Isle could explain its popularity?
Atb
Yes, in Ireland P n P is a separate game from "proper golf". It can be very serious. They have a separate union with comps and championships. They use a heavy ball so greens can be very small! It's tough.
Ciao
Curious about this ‘heavy ball’. Any more info?
Atb
https://www.colgansports.ie/product/commando-3pk/ (https://www.colgansports.ie/product/commando-3pk/)
"Commando is the #1 ball for pitch n putt because its soft and spins alot when you catch it right it also only travels about 3/4 the distance of a normal golf ball which makes it ideal for pitch shots because you can nearly make a full swing at it and it wont go too far."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9S4KU-4tk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9S4KU-4tk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnIG81N_rYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnIG81N_rYY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRGjw62bI60
Ciao
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I understand that pitch-n-putt is very popular in Ireland with inter-club matches, national events etc. Shane Lowry has commented on how it was p-n-p that got him started in the game. Others too I suspect.
Perhaps someone form the Emerald Isle could explain its popularity?
Atb
Yes, in Ireland P n P is a separate game from "proper golf". It can be very serious. They have a separate union with comps and championships. They use a heavy ball so greens can be very small! It's tough.
Ciao
Curious about this ‘heavy ball’. Any more info?
Atb
https://www.colgansports.ie/product/commando-3pk/ (https://www.colgansports.ie/product/commando-3pk/)
"Commando is the #1 ball for pitch n putt because its soft and spins alot when you catch it right it also only travels about 3/4 the distance of a normal golf ball which makes it ideal for pitch shots because you can nearly make a full swing at it and it wont go too far."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9S4KU-4tk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9S4KU-4tk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnIG81N_rYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnIG81N_rYY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRGjw62bI60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRGjw62bI60)
Ciao
Thank you.
The good ol’ Commando. I recall them well from general play a few decades ago when they were cheap and durable as against balatas that cut and were expensive.
I’ve one I use for hickory play. Rather pleasant to play with. Soft and spinny but doesn’t go far. A spec that would actually be pretty good for a rollback ball but best not go there just now! :)
Atb
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When I was a kid growing up in Durham, NC there were three par 3 courses in town; all three are long gone now. Two of the sites have houses on them, and the third is retail space. It’s just money.
Low cost to the consumer means low revenue to the operator, UNLESS you are getting Walmart type volume, and par 3’s just don’t. Most golf courses depend on a regular clientele, whether it’s members, or “avid” regulars, or resort guests, etc, and those sorts are looking to play “full size” golf. If your business model depends on casual, occasional golfers, good luck.
Good points and also THE CLIENTELE that play pitch and putt golf are very likely to go one of two ways.
1. Give Up for Various reasons
2. Like it, get better and move on to full size golf....so their success actually means you lose a customer.
Adrian,
Couldn't agree more on point #2. And it doesn't even need to be an 18 hole course, it just needs to have longer holes so people can bang away with the big stick and 3 wood.
Here in northern Utah I count more than 10 standalone 9 hole courses that are all somewhere between par 33 and 36. And only 1 standalone P-N-P, but private where presumably fees are such to make the math work.
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What's the difference between a par 3 course and a pitch & putt course? Is it the length of the holes? If so, what's the magic number for the distinction? The state of New York operates at least two par 3 courses that get very heavy use. Both are in state parks that also have a "full size" course. The par 3 course at Rockland Lake is 18 holes and about 2,700 yards. They have one set of tees and use mats to tee off from. Saratoga Spa is 9 holes (7 par 3's and two short par 4's) and is about 1,600 yards. Green fees at each are about $20 for 18 holes. Less than that for seniors and juniors. The holes at Rockland Lake range from 100 yards to 200 yards. The par 3 holes at Saratoga range from 90 yards to 160 yards. The two par 4's at Saratoga are 270 and 300 yards. Both courses are in very nice parkland settings. Rockland has a lot of elevation changes. When my son was little he loved the drop shot second hole at Rockland Lake. The tee marker said its 150 yards but it played around 120 and even a terrible shot could trickle down close to the green. Are these courses too long to be considered pitch & putt courses? In any event they are very busy.
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Pitch n putt is 2 club golf. So I would 1800 yards would be quite long.
Ciao
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What's the difference between a par 3 course and a pitch & putt course? Is it the length of the holes? If so, what's the magic number for the distinction?
Internationally, the cutoff is 90 meters (98 yards). But its not uncommon to see courses that have a hole or two in the 100-110 yard range.
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Shame that the once very common municipal pitch-n-putts and putting greens (and bowling greens) no longer exist in U.K. parks.
Isn’t there a very short yardage pitch-n-putt in the middle of Edinburgh (that’s maybe even free or very cheap to play)?
Lerwick in the Shetland Isles has a local council mown area with a p-n-p that’s free to play.
Who are the clientele going to be and how much space is really needed?
What spec and conditioning is really needed for total beginners, novices and those wanting some simple fun? Greens with a low height of cut? Nah, not really. Bunkers? Nah, not really. Raised tee mounds? Nah not really. Just cut some 4.25” holes in the ground and mow the damn grass and/or let some sheep graze the area. Golf’s essentially a simple stick, ball and hole game. No need to over complicate it.
And then there’s jumbo size putting greens. More Himalayas like putting courses would be really cool.
And as a slight aside, what about ‘crazy golf’, as it’s called in the U.K. Somewhere many of us first held a club and hit a wee ball.
Atb
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Thanks for everyones feedback. It does appear that a large portion of the PnP courses in the states have/had some municipal connection. Which I can understand can allow them to exist for a lot longer breaking even and will eventually cause their ultimate demise as those in power when the course was built are long gone when the decision is made to repurpose the land for future needs.
Low cost to the consumer means low revenue to the operator, UNLESS you are getting Walmart type volume, and par 3’s just don’t. Most golf courses depend on a regular clientele, whether it’s members, or “avid” regulars, or resort guests, etc, and those sorts are looking to play “full size” golf. If your business model depends on casual, occasional golfers, good luck.
Good points and also THE CLIENTELE that play pitch and putt golf are very likely to go one of two ways.
1. Give Up for Various reasons
2. Like it, get better and move on to full size golf....so their success actually means you lose a customer.
Adrian,
Couldn't agree more on point #2. And it doesn't even need to be an 18 hole course, it just needs to have longer holes so people can bang away with the big stick and 3 wood.
Here in northern Utah I count more than 10 standalone 9 hole courses that are all somewhere between par 33 and 36. And only 1 standalone P-N-P, but private where presumably fees are such to make the math work.
I don't know if this is entirely true anymore, at least in the way you're looking at it. Places like mini golf (putt putt) have not exited as a gateway to regular golf. Topgolf's does not seem to target current or aspiring players, their focus seems to be more on the social aspects. The same with a place such as Puttshack. In many ways Pitch and Putt seems to be the middle ground between. Those generally non-golfers who are attracted to try out a place like Topgolf or Puttshack would also seem to be the clientel who would try pitch and putt.
Topgolf and a pitch and putt course occupy the same amount of land, 10-13 acres. The cost to build a top golf averages around $18 million! A large staff means high operational costs. Thus why they need so many hitting bays, high priced food, and a $30-50 per hour rate for a hitting bay.
It would seem possible for a fraction of the cost to build and operate a Topgolf you could take the Butler PnP model and reproduce it all over the place. Balance the experience to be only 40% golf and 60% social, allow the golf to be a conduit to entertainment and community. If people are drawn to the PnP for the social and entertainment aspects, perfect. If they come to fall in love with golf, even better.
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It’s just money.
Low cost to the consumer means low revenue to the operator, UNLESS you are getting Walmart type volume, and par 3’s just don’t. Most golf courses depend on a regular clientele, whether it’s members, or “avid” regulars, or resort guests, etc, and those sorts are looking to play “full size” golf. If your business model depends on casual, occasional golfers, good luck.
Pitch n putt is 2 club golf. So I would 1800 yards would be quite long.
Ciao
A.G., it's why I cited Arroyo Seco in an earlier post. I'm surprised it still exists. I don't know why considering its location. Your post neglects to assume those jumping to the "full size" level will not be filled by the next generation that will occupy the void and continue the cycle. Anyone have thoughts on why AS still lives?
Sean, I agree with the yardage you provide. However, ALL golf is 2 club golf if one chooses to do that. ;)
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Ben:
I think this is the correct opinion. Pitch and Putts are a tough sell due to the costs to run them are far greater than the average greens fee. This makes it a challenge to run them without a model that has a profit motive. The only pitch and putts that I can think of that are profitable are attached to large-scale resorts. The model of an open field being mowed down with pins is a tough sell in the North American market if you want to charge more than $10. Which is not enough of a fee for these places to survive without a strong volunteer culture or support from a community organization. It is also the same reason that Par 3 courses not attached to large-scale resorts tend to struggle as people are not willing to pay the cost to make them a functional option for a for-profit entity.
This is why I suggest the model of executive courses with alternative tees is probably the best model as people seem to be more willing to pay to play a course with 3 par 4's and 5 par 3's rather than playing just 3's. This makes sense as par 3's are the hardest holes in golf to score on. Also, golf is a game of variety so playing a course of only one length of hole can be challenging to make work unless the site or the shaping is extreme. This is not the case in most of these examples. I think it would be cool to see golf embrace the use of more alternative teeing areas to create golf courses that have more flexibility.
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Ben H,
TopGolf is interesting, I only have anecdotal data from 4-5 visits thru the years including one last week.
On the most recent visit 95% of the shots taken by our group of 5 players over 3 hours was 3 wood or driver, and that confirms what i've seen in prior visits. Very few if any want to have wedge and 9 iron contests but it would certainly be fascinating to analyze the macro data for all TopGolf venues in the aggregate.
And as mentioned, this seems to correlate well with full length stand-alone 9 holers being able to keep the doors open, but nearly every pitch & putt I've ever played was a secondary course to the main attraction.
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As to how many clubs how about 1, yes 1!
It's happening in Melbourne, Aussie. Well done Sandy Jamieson.
See - https://www.1club.golf/
atb
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This is why I suggest the model of executive courses with alternative tees is probably the best model as people seem to be more willing to pay to play a course with 3 par 4's and 5 par 3's rather than playing just 3's. This makes sense as par 3's are the hardest holes in golf to score on. Also, golf is a game of variety so playing a course of only one length of hole can be challenging to make work unless the site or the shaping is extreme. This is not the case in most of these examples. I think it would be cool to see golf embrace the use of more alternative teeing areas to create golf courses that have more flexibility.
Ben,
I'm not sure an executive course would be any more profitable.
While a Pitch and Putt course can be built on ~10 acres, you would need nearly 3x as much land for a 9 hole par 3 or executive course. Purchasing that much land anywhere near a city center would be nearly impossible or extremely expensive.
Then you'd have a significant increase in maintenance cost. Whereas a PnP may use mat tee boxes and smaller greens, a par 3 / exec course would most likely need grass tees, fairway, and larger greens.
All which could nearly double the cost to play, and increase the time to play the course by 1.5 - 2x.
as people seem to be more willing to pay to play a course with 3 par 4's and 5 par 3's rather than playing just 3's.
This might be true for the established weekend warriors looking for their weekend round. But I don't believe its as true for the guy looking to get his golf fix during lunch hour on a Tuesday or happy hour on a Friday. It's certainly not true for someone new to the game who finds par 4's daunting because they may not be able to reach the green in 4 shots. Or for the person that finds the cost and time too expensive to try out.
Much like how Topgolf isn't used by the retail player to replace a full scale round of golf, I don't believe the target for Pitch and Putt would either. If anything, its for them to augment their other golf and to possibly replace one of their weekly range sessions. It is also a place people can bring their children and non-golfing friend to introduce them to the game in an relaxed and social atmosphere.
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Ben H,
TopGolf is interesting, I only have anecdotal data from 4-5 visits thru the years including one last week.
On the most recent visit 95% of the shots taken by our group of 5 players over 3 hours was 3 wood or driver, and that confirms what i've seen in prior visits. Very few if any want to have wedge and 9 iron contests but it would certainly be fascinating to analyze the macro data for all TopGolf venues in the aggregate.
And as mentioned, this seems to correlate well with full length stand-alone 9 holers being able to keep the doors open, but nearly every pitch & putt I've ever played was a secondary course to the main attraction.
It does seem Topgolf almost caters to their patrons taking big swings, but that could easily be steering into the skid, or that the average non-golfing patron feels the big headed driver is the easier club to try and hit.
It would make sense for the PnP to be with another facility, My question though, does that other facility have to be golf related. If the PnP was connected of the back of a brewery or food hall, could the combo of the two make each more desirable? Something like Welter's Folly (https://www.journeyman.com/golf)?
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There's a local one here that best matches that description. They do call themselves a CC thou, even if the course is a par 3 9 holer fit into a tiny piece of land. They offer a ton of social amenities and there has been a waiting list in place for years, so seems its pretty popular. :) Certainly seems to benefit from its location too, sits right on the edge of probably the largest group of high end homes in the valley.
https://cottonwoodcc.org/ (https://cottonwoodcc.org/)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cottonwood+Country+Club/@40.6510346,-111.8417206,540m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x875262117221327f:0xde0d0da8b6de5010!8m2!3d40.6521957!4d-111.841682 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cottonwood+Country+Club/@40.6510346,-111.8417206,540m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x875262117221327f:0xde0d0da8b6de5010!8m2!3d40.6521957!4d-111.841682)
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I think we can take Topgolf out of this discussion; it has nothing to do with PNP’s in any way. Not in concept, not in target demographic, not in operation.
I don’t think a significant number of people go to Topgolf to practice; that’s not what Topgolf is about. It’s also not weather dependent, or daylight dependent, or tee time dependent, or any of the other stuff the golf courses, big or small, have to factor in.
Topgolf is another thing entirely, and not very instructive about anything else.
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AG,
I would wholeheartedly disagree. I believe there is a great deal that could be learned about who goes to Topgear and why they visit that could be directly applied to a pitch and putt type facility (https://youtu.be/NZNF02ngnuY).
I would say that the connections between pitch and putt and Topgolf are greater than between pitch and putt and regulation golf.
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AG,
I agree with Ben. Top golf and PNPs probably have more things in common, including the top one: Inexperienced players...
Last time I was there, the side bay protectors and safety nets got plenty of use, and not just ours...
However, I would agree that:
1) Those who want to play and excel in golf will play less and less PNPs...
2) Purely social players aren't seeking out PNPs, or regulation 18 holers for that matter.
Perhaps PNPs would do best at YMCA clubs or venues setup to attract kids?
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AG,
I would wholeheartedly disagree. I believe there is a great deal that could be learned about who goes to Topgear and why they visit that could be directly applied to a pitch and putt type facility (https://youtu.be/NZNF02ngnuY).
I would say that the connections between pitch and putt and Topgolf are greater than between pitch and putt and regulation golf.
You can say that, but you’d be wrong. Topgolf is a large scale arcade. A pitch and putt is small scale golf.
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There's a nice, and challenging, Pitch and Putt course in Doolin, IE
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Shame that the once very common municipal pitch-n-putts and putting greens (and bowling greens) no longer exist in U.K. parks.
Isn’t there a very short yardage pitch-n-putt in the middle of Edinburgh (that’s maybe even free or very cheap to play)?
Lerwick in the Shetland Isles has a local council mown area with a p-n-p that’s free to play.
Who are the clientele going to be and how much space is really needed?
What spec and conditioning is really needed for total beginners, novices and those wanting some simple fun? Greens with a low height of cut? Nah, not really. Bunkers? Nah, not really. Raised tee mounds? Nah not really. Just cut some 4.25” holes in the ground and mow the damn grass and/or let some sheep graze the area. Golf’s essentially a simple stick, ball and hole game. No need to over complicate it.
And then there’s jumbo size putting greens. More Himalayas like putting courses would be really cool.
And as a slight aside, what about ‘crazy golf’, as it’s called in the U.K. Somewhere many of us first held a club and hit a wee ball.
Atb
You are right. Folks here are envisioning proper 18 hole conditions for a PnP. I've only played two, Bruntsfield Short Links and Doolin. Neither was a conditioning marvel. I would go so far as to say Bruntsfield was rudimentary, but a bunch of us had fun. Being in the centre of a major city and basically a park to boot certainly helps, but location always matters. PnP takes vision where many lack it. Times are changing.
Ciao
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There's a nice, and challenging, Pitch and Putt course in Doolin, IE
Craig, nice mention of Doolin Pitch & Putt. I had looked forward to playing but it was closed when we were there. Spectacular views of the Cliffs of Moher - within walking distance of the village.
If I may go off topic, anyone visiting nearby Lahinch should take an extra day or two to visit Doolin. Specifically, the Doolin Cliff Walk and the Doolin Music House should not be missed. 4th generation farmer Pat Sweeney leads the 7 miles hike from Doolin to the Cliffs of Moher Visitors Center, climbing 700 feet along a path he helped create that is mere steps from the cliff-line. A delightful and insightful fellow.
Follow that up with an evening at Doolin Music House, where Christy Barry and his wife host a dozen or so visitors in their home. Christy plays the whistle, spoons and flute accompanied by a fiddler and discusses the history of songs and Irish music between numbers. All this in front of a peat fire with plenty of wine served.
A pint of two at Gus O'Connor's Pub closed what both my wife and I consider our best day of traveling - ever.
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AG,
I would wholeheartedly disagree. I believe there is a great deal that could be learned about who goes to Topgear and why they visit that could be directly applied to a pitch and putt type facility (https://youtu.be/NZNF02ngnuY).
I would say that the connections between pitch and putt and Topgolf are greater than between pitch and putt and regulation golf.
You can say that, but you’d be wrong. Topgolf is a large scale arcade. A pitch and putt is small scale golf.
I like Topgolf. I enjoy the fast turf, cold beer, and the fact that my golf-hating wife enjoys it as much as my buddies who join leagues for Midwestern winter practice do.
Adapt the pitch and putt concept into something more like Topgolf and maybe I'd get on board.
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AG,
I would wholeheartedly disagree. I believe there is a great deal that could be learned about who goes to Topgear and why they visit that could be directly applied to a pitch and putt type facility (https://youtu.be/NZNF02ngnuY).
I would say that the connections between pitch and putt and Topgolf are greater than between pitch and putt and regulation golf.
You can say that, but you’d be wrong. Topgolf is a large scale arcade. A pitch and putt is small scale golf.
I like Topgolf. I enjoy the fast turf, cold beer, and the fact that my golf-hating wife enjoys it as much as my buddies who join leagues for Midwestern winter practice do.
Adapt the pitch and putt concept into something more like Topgolf and maybe I'd get on board.
Ok, I’m game. Explain to me how a pitch and putt could become more like Topgolf.
Be sure not to leave out the fact that your buddies are there in the winter because “real” golf courses of ANY size probably might not even open, and that the bays at Topgolf are heated. Be sure to include your golf-hating wife, too.
I’ll give you a pass on the cold beer part.
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With the huge success of pickelball, I would think some version would work.
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With the huge success of pickelball, I would think some version would work.
A pickleball court is the size of a tiny green, usually imposed on an already-existing tennis court or gym floor, often indoors and heated, and always paved.
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So, this begs the questions; why is there not a, let alone many, Pitch and Putt courses in every major city? Why would a course of this type succeed in your town and why would it fail?
The par three Cane Patch in Myrtle Beach was in The Confidential Guide. It was lit and close to other attractions in the area. Nothing special, as Tom wrote, but it did offer some opportunities for creativity and semblance of real golf. It was busy every time I visited. It was closed for redevelopment (which still has not happened).
Maybe the offers to cash out and eliminate the headaches of business ownership is just too attractive.
As for TopGolf, I gotta give those guys credit. I guess "Swing & Swill" wasn't great for marketing because that place is akin to GOLF as much as frisbee golf.
That's just me though. I'm off to the batting cages with a twelve pack of warm Schlitz and a couple buddies. We're all gonna convince ourselves we're hitting ropes off Randy Johnson.
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First let's decide what we are talking about. Is it a pitch and putt course or an executive course? It seems like everyone wants to talk about the expenses of a pitch and putt course due to the lower land requirements but then you talk about the revenue of an executive course. So let's talk about a pitch and putt course.
First, good golfers won't play a pitch and putt course for the exact reason mentioned: golfers want to hit driver. Period. I own an executive course and we see about 1/2 the rounds of a full length course for just that reason. So that means you're talking about very limited demand from kids and beginners unless you are in a totally unserved market like New York City, in which case you can't afford the 10 acres to begin with. If a typical public course in the market has 35,000 rounds, a pitch and putt will have maybe 10,000 rounds. What's the greens fee? If it's a flat piece of land with some greens mowed in it, it's probably less than $10. So 10,000 rounds x $10 is $100,000. In the US, by the time you pay electricity, insurance, property taxes, and course maintenance, assuming you want even decent conditions, you're looking at no less than $200,000 to run the place. What's land cost these days - $300K an acre? Even 10 acres is a $3M investment. Throw in a million or so to build the course and you're in for $4M. Good luck making $600K PROFIT to get a 15% return on that. You would need revenue of $800K or so, which is about $80 a round. And, if you want to get a better greens fee by making an interesting course, your investment just went into the multiple millions, you will need more land, and your maintenance cost went up.
For the same amount of land, you can build a driving range for less, and have more revenue and lower expenses. The math is really quite simple. And if you have the land to build a driving range, you can sell it for development and make even more money with no risk.
As for the TopGolf argument, it is a bar that happens to have a driving range. It isn't full on a Friday night because people want to practice, it's full because 20 somethings are getting loaded on $10 cocktails and having fun. Unless you can sell $10 cocktails on a pitch and putt, it's a totally different deal. That's why you see these bars coming out with putt putt courses like Puttshack. The bar is where the money is. I applaud any city looking to build courses like this because we need places for people to learn golf, but I can't imagine how a private developer would make any money today.
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Keep your eye on a new business developing in this space. They are targeting a national (and eventually an international) footprint and will be "bringing TopGolf and more to green grass."
They have a well-experienced and respected team that has access to significant capital and a very shrewd business plan. fresh ideas.
I believe they'll remain in "stealth mode" for a little while longer, but their ability to find and secure well-located venues is impressive.
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Sounds like you're talking about Topgolfs new model of including actual courses with their facilities, like they have in LA with The Lakes at El Segundo. (https://www.golfthelakes.com/)
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First let's decide what we are talking about.
As for the TopGolf argument, it is a bar that happens to have a driving range. It isn't full on a Friday night because people want to practice, it's full because 20 somethings are getting loaded on $10 cocktails and having fun. Unless you can sell $10 cocktails on a pitch and putt, it's a totally different deal. That's why you see these bars coming out with putt putt courses like Puttshack. The bar is where the money is. I applaud any city looking to build courses like this because we need places for people to learn golf, but I can't imagine how a private developer would make any money today.
https://aeroclubgolf.com/
I think Michael Whitaker knows the individual or group that owns/runs it.
Do people really prefer an antiseptic bay over a place like this?
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Slapper:
It will be interesting to see what this new model to "Swing & Swill" Topgolf rolls out as..........and Swing & Swill is pretty successful.
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First, good golfers won't play a pitch and putt course for the exact reason mentioned: golfers want to hit driver. Period.
I don't even think it's drivers. It just can't be a series of sand wedges. That's why I found the Cradle to be too short and completely underwhelming compared to something like the Sandbox, where you might hit a few full 7/8/9 irons and have a lot of exciting chances to experiment with different shot types. We had just as much fun there as we did on the big courses.
Edit: That said, the main appeal of the Sandbox is as a complement to the big courses. It's a blast, but it's not a replacement.
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If I’m not playing “real” golf, I’m probably going to Top Golf way before I’m headed to a par 3 or pitch n putt or even a nice putting course. Why? Convenience, fun, lack of required skill or seriousness. I get to stand around in a bay, whack the rock, get food and drink and music and compete for who pays the check with buddies. Or I get to watch my non-golfer wife dribble one off the mat playing Angry Birds while giggling and looking like a million bucks.
Stand alone (meaning not associated with a regular full length facility) par three courses or pitch n putts are an that sound great until the realities of finances and preferences of consumers are taken into account.
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That's just me though. I'm off to the batting cages with a twelve pack of warm Schlitz and a couple buddies. We're all gonna convince ourselves we're hitting ropes off Randy Johnson.
Peter,
This one had me rolling, prolly cause i knew a few of these dudes who were convinced they were gonna play pro ball, but couldn't even make the high school team! ;D
P.S. I'm aware of only one model that has integrated the Top Golf/Pitch N Putt concept and that's The Las Vegas Golf Center. Went there years ago when I was passing thru and the bar, driving range, and lit-up short course were all packed!
https://lasvegasgolfcenters.com/
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I would not view a pitch and putt as a replacement for a full round of golf. If you have the time and money of course you'd pick playing on a full size regulation course. If anything, I would view it more as a replacement or augmentation of a range session. For the serious golfers it would be a wedge/shortgame focused range session.
But even that to me would not be the fundamental draw of such a facility popping up near large metro areas. If you don't have the time, money, or experience to play on a full size course the pitch and putt can fill that niche. You have a free hour and you want to actually play the ball in the hole. You want to introduce your children to the game in a laid-back environment, you want a fun social activity to go do with your significant other / friends that still allows you to play some golf, the pitch and putt would work well for those scenarios.
The Aero club in Myrtle Beach looks to be very close in concept to the PnP/Topgolf-esque hybrid that I'm thinking of. For a place like MB, it may be very well placed to catch all 3 scenarios I mentioned above, plus the potential for late afternoon/evening E9 type play from golf trips to the area.
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Sounds like you're talking about Topgolfs new model of including actual courses with their facilities, like they have in LA with The Lakes at El Segundo. (https://www.golfthelakes.com/)
Ben,
TG is calling it a new model, but in reality the El Segundo location is more of an outlier...it was TG's only feasible site in the LA-SoCal market. I will say there are two GCA people involved.
I'm hearing some of the architectural creativities will be unique.
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Interesting Steve,
It would seem plausible that Topgolf could find quite a few rundown 9 hole / par 3 courses across the country that they could repurpose for similar type facilities. It would also seem very plausible that in this "golf-lite" environment that the architecture could be taken to new and exciting extremes.
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If I’m not playing “real” golf, I’m probably going to Top Golf way before I’m headed to a par 3 or pitch n putt or even a nice putting course. Why? Convenience, fun, lack of required skill or seriousness. I get to stand around in a bay, whack the rock, get food and drink and music and compete for who pays the check with buddies. Or I get to watch my non-golfer wife dribble one off the mat playing Angry Birds while giggling and looking like a million bucks.
"i get to stand around in a bay." I hope I'm dead before any golfer touts this as positive.
I couldn't imagine a world in which my friends and I couldn't manufacture an-OUTDOOR-golf simulation of any length that would cost a third of TopGolf. Coolers and BBQs are reusable.
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Funny this thread is on here because I was just thinking about this. I live in South Jersey and use to drive past this abandoned sand quarry every day and think what a perfect place it would be for a par 3/ pitch and putt. It was about 10 miles from Pine Valley and had that same pine scrub look with movement in the land. Problem around here is the cost of the land. It was over a million dollars for the lot then I would imagine the cost of creating it would be a lot. You would have to try to fetch a pretty goof fee to recoup the investment.
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I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned what is surely the best pitch and putt in the United States- The Hay!
I've played it a few times now. It's absolutely phenomenal, the vision and execution by Tiger on a tight and sloped piece of land was perfect. (They use mats four days a week and grass three days a week to reduce wear.)
Tiger started at a community pitch and putt- Heartwell in Long Beach. I started at pitch and putts in NYS. I truly believe they could work anywhere.
My hope is people will experience the Hay on their Pebble Beach travels and realize what a community benefit it could be in their home towns.
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Sounds like you're talking about Topgolfs new model of including actual courses with their facilities, like they have in LA with The Lakes at El Segundo. (https://www.golfthelakes.com/)
Ben,
TG is calling it a new model, but in reality the El Segundo location is more of an outlier...it was TG's only feasible site in the LA-SoCal market. I will say there are two GCA people involved.
I'm hearing some of the architectural creativities will be unique.
I'm likely going to play there on Saturday. Anybody played it yet?
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If I’m not playing “real” golf, I’m probably going to Top Golf way before I’m headed to a par 3 or pitch n putt or even a nice putting course. Why? Convenience, fun, lack of required skill or seriousness. I get to stand around in a bay, whack the rock, get food and drink and music and compete for who pays the check with buddies. Or I get to watch my non-golfer wife dribble one off the mat playing Angry Birds while giggling and looking like a million bucks.
"i get to stand around in a bay." I hope I'm dead before any golfer touts this as positive.
I couldn't imagine a world in which my friends and I couldn't manufacture an-OUTDOOR-golf simulation of any length that would cost a third of TopGolf. Coolers and BBQs are reusable.
There was a lot more to that sentence than that, Oxford comma and all. :)
But I don’t have to defend it. I go to the Top Golf that’s nearby perhaps three times per year and actually play golf a hell of a lot more than that. As a 12 handicap I might as well be a ringer there, by the way. Not many serious golfers around those parts. But it makes a helluva date night. And it sure beats sitting in a pub with the fellas from time to time.
If I were to bring up going to a pitch n putt with the same fellas, they’d ask why we weren’t playing “real golf.” Top Golf doesn’t even register as golf to them, or me. It’s entertainment. That’s a tough chasm to cross for modern pitch n putts and par three’s.
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If I’m not playing “real” golf, I’m probably going to Top Golf way before I’m headed to a par 3 or pitch n putt or even a nice putting course. Why? Convenience, fun, lack of required skill or seriousness. I get to stand around in a bay, whack the rock, get food and drink and music and compete for who pays the check with buddies. Or I get to watch my non-golfer wife dribble one off the mat playing Angry Birds while giggling and looking like a million bucks.
"i get to stand around in a bay." I hope I'm dead before any golfer touts this as positive.
I couldn't imagine a world in which my friends and I couldn't manufacture an-OUTDOOR-golf simulation of any length that would cost a third of TopGolf. Coolers and BBQs are reusable.
There was a lot more to that sentence than that, Oxford comma and all. :)
But I don’t have to defend it. I go to the Top Golf that’s nearby perhaps three times per year and actually play golf a hell of a lot more than that. As a 12 handicap I might as well be a ringer there, by the way. Not many serious golfers around those parts. But it makes a helluva date night. And it sure beats sitting in a pub with the fellas from time to time.
If I were to bring up going to a pitch n putt with the same fellas, they’d ask why we weren’t playing “real golf.” Top Golf doesn’t even register as golf to them, or me. It’s entertainment. That’s a tough chasm to cross for modern pitch n putts and par three’s.
Ben, thanks for the honest response.
I am blessed/cursed with friends who cannot sit in a bar without a frequent outdoor activity.
Is the future of pitch and putts in major cities married to entertainment, i.e., group drinking? I've stated how boring I find The Cradle but I do appreciate watching a 7-some of friends, lubricated or not, enjoy the hell out of their time there.
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If I’m not playing “real” golf, I’m probably going to Top Golf way before I’m headed to a par 3 or pitch n putt or even a nice putting course. Why? Convenience, fun, lack of required skill or seriousness. I get to stand around in a bay, whack the rock, get food and drink and music and compete for who pays the check with buddies. Or I get to watch my non-golfer wife dribble one off the mat playing Angry Birds while giggling and looking like a million bucks.
"i get to stand around in a bay." I hope I'm dead before any golfer touts this as positive.
I couldn't imagine a world in which my friends and I couldn't manufacture an-OUTDOOR-golf simulation of any length that would cost a third of TopGolf. Coolers and BBQs are reusable.
There was a lot more to that sentence than that, Oxford comma and all. :)
But I don’t have to defend it. I go to the Top Golf that’s nearby perhaps three times per year and actually play golf a hell of a lot more than that. As a 12 handicap I might as well be a ringer there, by the way. Not many serious golfers around those parts. But it makes a helluva date night. And it sure beats sitting in a pub with the fellas from time to time.
If I were to bring up going to a pitch n putt with the same fellas, they’d ask why we weren’t playing “real golf.” Top Golf doesn’t even register as golf to them, or me. It’s entertainment. That’s a tough chasm to cross for modern pitch n putts and par three’s.
Ben, thanks for the honest response.
I am blessed/cursed with friends who cannot sit in a bar without a frequent outdoor activity.
Is the future of pitch and putts in major cities married to entertainment, i.e., group drinking? I've stated how boring I find The Cradle but I do appreciate watching a 7-some of friends, lubricated or not, enjoy the hell out of their time there.
I absolutely love The Cradle, and as I understand it, it’s now the leading money maker at Pinehurst.
BUT put it a few miles away without the courses that surround it and the Pinehurst clubhouse, etc, and it’s a different story. I’ve played it three times; all three were either before or after an 18 hole round, and I’d wager that’s the story for the vast majority of the rounds there.
It’s also important to remember that The Cradle benefits from perhaps the greatest economy of scale in all of golf for maintenance; labor, equipment, chemicals, etc.
Like Topgolf, I don’t think the success of The Cradle tells us anything at all about the chances of success for short courses. That real estate was golf long ago, and was never going to be anything else, which is a far cry from what has happened to most short courses in urban areas.
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If I’m not playing “real” golf, I’m probably going to Top Golf way before I’m headed to a par 3 or pitch n putt or even a nice putting course. Why? Convenience, fun, lack of required skill or seriousness. I get to stand around in a bay, whack the rock, get food and drink and music and compete for who pays the check with buddies. Or I get to watch my non-golfer wife dribble one off the mat playing Angry Birds while giggling and looking like a million bucks.
"i get to stand around in a bay." I hope I'm dead before any golfer touts this as positive.
I couldn't imagine a world in which my friends and I couldn't manufacture an-OUTDOOR-golf simulation of any length that would cost a third of TopGolf. Coolers and BBQs are reusable.
There was a lot more to that sentence than that, Oxford comma and all. :)
But I don’t have to defend it. I go to the Top Golf that’s nearby perhaps three times per year and actually play golf a hell of a lot more than that. As a 12 handicap I might as well be a ringer there, by the way. Not many serious golfers around those parts. But it makes a helluva date night. And it sure beats sitting in a pub with the fellas from time to time.
If I were to bring up going to a pitch n putt with the same fellas, they’d ask why we weren’t playing “real golf.” Top Golf doesn’t even register as golf to them, or me. It’s entertainment. That’s a tough chasm to cross for modern pitch n putts and par three’s.
Ben, thanks for the honest response.
I am blessed/cursed with friends who cannot sit in a bar without a frequent outdoor activity.
Is the future of pitch and putts in major cities married to entertainment, i.e., group drinking? I've stated how boring I find The Cradle but I do appreciate watching a 7-some of friends, lubricated or not, enjoy the hell out of their time there.
No I don’t think so. I think the future of pitch n putts is already here. It’s tied to the after glow, down time fun time at higher end private clubs and resort facilities. Ballyneal, Pinehurst, Bandon, Shelter Harbor, Colorado Golf Club…the list goes on and on. A.G, nailed this in his last post.
What I think he may have missed is the success of Top Golf not impacting the success or failure of pitch n putts or par three courses. Think about it. What’s better than a low stress, low consequence environment to teach a kid than whacking a ball and watch it knock over some bowling pins on a screen or something stupid like that. Sure “real” golf comes later. But for getting my six year old to actually enjoy being terrible? I’ll take Top Golf over a par three course any day.
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Why would it not work? Real estate value.
In the Toronto area it is hard to see how any golf courses beyond munis, member owned clubs, or courses on undevelopable lands will be built in the future, or even continue to operate as golf courses, unless we see a substantial real estate crash. Even some excellent member owned clubs are at risk of being developed - like Beacon Hall.
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It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons.
Someone smarter than me would have to break down the economics, but it seems to me that there are ways for a P&P to be successful as part of a municipal park. Like I mentioned previously, Nassau County built a 10-acre P&P on unused beachfront, with enough interest in the design that it caught the attention of The Fried Egg. Unfortunately, the county opened and has since operated the course in complete anonymity and has largely left it to the forces of seaside nature.
Let's say we go back in time and place someone forward-thinking at the helm. You have a park intern put up social media posts about the course once or twice a week. You bring in rotating food trucks on summer/fall weekends to serve burgers, tacos and whatnot at the course gate throughout the day (or some approved county vendor if we're gonna get into the weeds on municipalities). You run a hole-in-one or closest-to-pin contest once a month. All the while you're giving the locals an attractive place to spend an hour or two, and a stepping stone for young kids and beginners to play with friends and family. Is this not a reasonable model for a successful P&P? It seems to me that it is, provided you're not purchasing the land, but I admit I don't really have a handle on the economics.
Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?
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It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons.
Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?
Phil,
The exact opposite seems to be the case from where I sit.
A private P&P can charge dues and fees well above what the public would pay for same experience. As mentioned in a prior post, the only standalone P&P in the entire SLC metro area is private as they have a social club, dining, pool, etc at same facility. Every other short course without exception is bundled in at a facility with a regulation length 9 hole or 18 hole course and driving range.
P.S. As for softball, it may just be a Western US phenomena, but I've lived in California, Utah, and Washington state and every available muni owned softball complex is at capacity for rec league play as weather permits which in most parts of Cali is year round.
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It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons.
Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?
Phil,
The exact opposite seems to be the case from where I sit.
A private P&P can charge dues and fees well above what the public would pay for same experience. As mentioned in a prior post, the only standalone P&P in the entire SLC metro area is private as they have a social club, dining, pool, etc at same facility. Every other short course without exception is bundled in at a facility with a regulation length 9 hole or 18 hole course and driving range.
P.S. As for softball, it may just be a Western US phenomena, but I've lived in California, Utah, and Washington state and every available muni owned softball complex is at capacity for rec league play as weather permits which in most parts of Cali is year round.
There's no doubt it varies from region to region. Here on Long Island, while many baseball/softball fields are certainly operating at capacity and bringing in a ton of permit fees, there are also many that are underused. I'd bet they can be converted for other purposes without issue.
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It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons.
Someone smarter than me would have to break down the economics, but it seems to me that there are ways for a P&P to be successful as part of a municipal park. Like I mentioned previously, Nassau County built a 10-acre P&P on unused beachfront, with enough interest in the design that it caught the attention of The Fried Egg. Unfortunately, the county opened and has since operated the course in complete anonymity and has largely left it to the forces of seaside nature.
Let's say we go back in time and place someone forward-thinking at the helm. You have a park intern put up social media posts about the course once or twice a week. You bring in rotating food trucks on summer/fall weekends to serve burgers, tacos and whatnot at the course gate throughout the day (or some approved county vendor if we're gonna get into the weeds on municipalities). You run a hole-in-one or closest-to-pin contest once a month. All the while you're giving the locals an attractive place to spend an hour or two, and a stepping stone for young kids and beginners to play with friends and family. Is this not a reasonable model for a successful P&P? It seems to me that it is, provided you're not purchasing the land, but I admit I don't really have a handle on the economics.
Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?
Phil,
Isn't one of the issues with Nickerson that you need to be a paid member of the beach club to access it?
It's private, but a great example of the vibe you're talking about is The Loma Club in San Diego. Lovely place.
https://thelomaclub.com/
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Phil,
Isn't one of the issues with Nickerson that you need to be a paid member of the beach club to access it?
It's private, but a great example of the vibe you're talking about is The Loma Club in San Diego. Lovely place.
https://thelomaclub.com/ (https://thelomaclub.com/)
I don't think that's the case. You have to be a County resident (or with one) to use the park, and you have to pay a park entrance fee in season. Other than that I don't think there are any restrictions.
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This thread brings to mind ice rinks. I would ice rinks are quite expensive to operate, but I think most are muni owned and sometimes operated. There seems to be tolerance for a relatively few number of rinks even in crazy climates. I think the idea of a rink is not to make money, but to provide recreational opportunities for residents. I would think a p&p would be about the same land footprint given parking lots etc. Well run rinks are heavily utilized and provide a ladder from midgets sometimes all the to low level pro hockey as well figure skating and open skating.
Where there is a lack of public facilities, there is a place for muni golf which could easily include p&p if the facilities are well run.
Ciao
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https://youtu.be/hJo23J73Q8E (https://youtu.be/hJo23J73Q8E)
Adlington Golf Centre in Cheshire has an excellent pitch and putt course and a par 3 course - both Hawtree designs.
They’re in the course adding an adventure golf courses and have just doubled the size of the range.
The place is clearly thriving.
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Phil,
Isn't one of the issues with Nickerson that you need to be a paid member of the beach club to access it?
It's private, but a great example of the vibe you're talking about is The Loma Club in San Diego. Lovely place.
https://thelomaclub.com/ (https://thelomaclub.com/)
I don't think that's the case. You have to be a County resident (or with one) to use the park, and you have to pay a park entrance fee in season. Other than that I don't think there are any restrictions.
Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.
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Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.
So let's take the model I proposed and transplant it a few miles north. Let's say NYS decides they want to replace the soccer field at Valley Stream State Park with a nine-hole P&P. It's the perfect size, no land purchase or clearing required. Direct access to the parkway; parking lot already in place; surrounded by dense communities and one of LI's few black holes for public golf courses. Maybe a nerd like me posts every once in a while about how there used to be a pre-WWII course right across the parkway. NYS maintains and promotes it with some of the revenue crumbs from Bethpage. Could it work then?
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https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328
we are building a new dual function practice range at our municipal golf facility which will have a six hole P&P built into the range using the target greens. The range would closed on the days/times we are using it as a P&P (see link above)
plan is to use this for juniors and/or beginers on select days/times.
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Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.
So let's take the model I proposed and transplant it a few miles north. Let's say NYS decides they want to replace the soccer field at Valley Stream State Park with a nine-hole P&P. It's the perfect size, no land purchase or clearing required. Direct access to the parkway; parking lot already in place; surrounded by dense communities and one of LI's few black holes for public golf courses. Maybe a nerd like me posts every once in a while about how there used to be a pre-WWII course right across the parkway. NYS maintains and promotes it with some of the revenue crumbs from Bethpage. Could it work then?
I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield. A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out. Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever. If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.
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or age
Agree with almost everything except that… a soccer field is more age exclusive than golf. Not many 60-year-old soccer players out there. :)
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I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield. A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out. Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever. If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.
I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields. I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.
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https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328 (https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328)
we are building a new dual function practice range at our municipal golf facility which will have a six hole P&P built into the range using the target greens. The range would closed on the days/times we are using it as a P&P (see link above)
plan is to use this for juniors and/or beginers on select days/times.
I'm glad to seen someone push a project like this. The first time I read about Shorty's at Bandon (https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/blog/shortys-at-the-bandon-dunes-practice-center/) I thought it was a concept that could become more common place.
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I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield. A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out. Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever. If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.
I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields. I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.
It's an interesting location, for sure. I'm of the mind that pitch and putt needs to be attached to a full-size course, or driving range and trendy restaurant/bar, to be remotely successful. Even if it was a Doak or a C&C. That said, my views are clouded by the fact that I don't find pitch and putt to be particularly enjoyable (unlike par 3 courses, which I do enjoy). I liked it as a kid, and it's a good way to learn, but even then I still spent way more time at the driving range and practice green that were connected.
I had a blast at the Loma Club in San Diego, which has the cool restaurant/bar, and is connected to a bunch of other food and shopping options, and is somewhere between pitch and putt and par 3 course — but I went as a random complement to a larger golf trip, and in the six times I've been to San Diego since with my clubs, haven't thought much about returning, despite having gone back to the complex it's in for food/drinks.
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Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.
So let's take the model I proposed and transplant it a few miles north. Let's say NYS decides they want to replace the soccer field at Valley Stream State Park with a nine-hole P&P. It's the perfect size, no land purchase or clearing required. Direct access to the parkway; parking lot already in place; surrounded by dense communities and one of LI's few black holes for public golf courses. Maybe a nerd like me posts every once in a while about how there used to be a pre-WWII course right across the parkway. NYS maintains and promotes it with some of the revenue crumbs from Bethpage. Could it work then?
I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield. A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out. Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever. If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.
The City of Atlanta shut down their municipal courses in the spring of 2020. The use of the parks during the shutdown naturally evolved into becoming city parks. Especially courses such as Candler Park and Chastain Park. Both are courses that are integrated into larger parks within the city and both exist in more affluent areas of town. It became commonplace to see people all over the courses having picnics, sunbathing, or playing a game of pickup. When the courses re-opened there was a big push by the surrounding communities to keep the courses as parkland, or provide some alternative as to how the properties could share their usage. Either provide "park days" where the course were closed or reduce the courses to smaller footprints by repurposing some of the holes.
(As an aside, some of these request seemed a bit missplaced as both courses had incorporated park land and were also located very close to other city run parks. Candler Park is a 55 acre park that is connected to the 200+ acre Freedom Park and is less than 2 miles from the 190 acre Piedmont Park.)
I attended a town hall meeting where the subject was being discussed, as to how the two entities could co-exist. There seemed to be pretty good momentum in the idea of dedicating one or two weekdays to using the courses as general parkland, that is until the discussion of financials came up. The cost to maintain the ground as a park, predominantly to pick up all the trash left behind by the park goers, was greater than the daily revenue generated by the course. From the cities perspective, if the properties were not golf courses collecting greens fees they could not fund the maintenance and upkeep on the land as anything else.
From a political standpoint, the people may rather have the property be a park, but operationally that could not happen without other downstream ramifications. Either an increase in public taxes or a fee levied on those groups who use new facilities will be needed to continue maintenance and operation. The one benefit of golfers, we do pay our own way.
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I think AG hit the nail on the head for the political considerations.
Golf is pretty much one purpose..
But a soccer field can be used for multiple purposes: Soccer, Lacrosse, Football, or a whole host of other informal stuff like kite flying, people working out, parents playing with young kids, older kids playing stickball/baseball, fairs, flea markets, social gatherings, etc). And for the informal stuff its almost always free use aka subsidized thru local taxes.
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I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield. A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out. Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever. If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.
I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields. I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.
I'm of the mind that pitch and putt needs to be attached to a full-size course, or driving range and trendy restaurant/bar, to be remotely successful. Even if it was a Doak or a C&C. That said, my views are clouded by the fact that I don't find pitch and putt to be particularly enjoyable (unlike par 3 courses, which I do enjoy). I liked it as a kid, and it's a good way to learn, but even then I still spent way more time at the driving range and practice green that were connected.
Mark, how do you differentiate a pitch and putt vs. a par three course?
Did you pay for your time on the range or green back then? What made those spots more enjoyable?
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Doolin Pitch and Putt starts around minute eleven
https://youtu.be/48qfJ4wlmHI
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8)
When we were kids we often played pitch and putt at the Golf Farm in Gibbsboro , NJ. It was simple and fun with the longest hole being about 40 yards. They mandated play off the mat tees so the maintenance issues were minimized to some extent. Great fun and definitely sharpened your short game.
Don't know why it isn't more popular as it used to be busy weeknights and packed on weekends.
It's still there, Archie, though I haven't been in years.
https://golflandnj.com/ (https://golflandnj.com/)
Photographic evidence!:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/GolfLand/index.html
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I'll bet fewer than 10% of Philly golfers have ever heard of the Alverthorpe Park pitch-and-putt. It has a couple of greens that will make you smile!
Photo tour here:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/AlverthorpePark_2022/index.html
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I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield. A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out. Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever. If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.
I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields. I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.
I'm of the mind that pitch and putt needs to be attached to a full-size course, or driving range and trendy restaurant/bar, to be remotely successful. Even if it was a Doak or a C&C. That said, my views are clouded by the fact that I don't find pitch and putt to be particularly enjoyable (unlike par 3 courses, which I do enjoy). I liked it as a kid, and it's a good way to learn, but even then I still spent way more time at the driving range and practice green that were connected.
Mark, how do you differentiate a pitch and putt vs. a par three course?
Did you pay for your time on the range or green back then? What made those spots more enjoyable?
Peter, I view pitch and putts as being much shorter with mostly short pitches with sand wedges, versus a par 3 course that lets you hit a larger variety of irons and has more room to get creative. Pitch and putt is a casual recreation, par 3's are legit golf just smaller. Most pitch and putts I've played as an adult feel almost too insubstantial to even be worth the effort. And that counts the Cradle at Pinehurst, which I thought was far less fun than the putting course. The Sandbox at Sand Valley felt like a completely unique golf experience; the Cradle felt like a way to kill time, and not enough of it.
As a kid in the late 80s/early90s, I spent a lot of time at the aforementioned Golf Farm in South Jersey. They had a pitch and putt, driving range, and practice green (there was originally an executive course as well, but that land was sold off). I did have to pay for range balls and the pitch and putt. And I wouldn't say I necessarily enjoyed the driving range or free putting green more than pitch and putt at the time, I just remember using them a lot more because I wanted to practice and it was more bang for my limited bucks. I also spent a lot of time at the nearby Kresson Golf Course, which was a bigger course (~4500 yards) that was inexpensive and great for kids and players of all skills. Again, always chose that over the P&P.
@Joe Bausch, thanks for that walk down memory lane. I remember skulling one out of a bunker there and it going straight into the windshield of a car driving by. Hole #8, I believe. Was never approached about it. Looks like they (smartly) removed that bunker. I also just checked out your photos from Kresson. What a treat to see it again. Thank you.
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https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328 (https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328)
we are building a new dual function practice range at our municipal golf facility which will have a six hole P&P built into the range using the target greens. The range would closed on the days/times we are using it as a P&P (see link above)
plan is to use this for juniors and/or beginers on select days/times.
That is so cool to hear.
Paxon Hollow is an absolute hidden gem of a course. Looks like the conditioning has improved drastically since I last played it.
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or age
Agree with almost everything except that… a soccer field is more age exclusive than golf. Not many 60-year-old soccer players out there. :)
True, but not many 8 year olds on golf courses, either.
In Alpharetta, GA, wher I used to live, there was/is a park where there was a huge, if informal, Hispanic soccer league on Sunday mornings, organized around the countries or even towns that the players had come from; uniforms and everything, all on their own. Probably no 60 yr old players, but close.
Similarly, there was a group that came out on week nights looking for an empty softball field to play cricket. Again, informal, but a LOT of guys, and a no cost to them.
In Econ, this is a “free rider” example, which golf courses typically do NOT have, but it was/is very cool to see, and a pretty high density use of the fields. My point being, of course, that using those fields for a PNP would be a very tough sell to the public ar large.
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Arroyo Seco in Pasadena has been around for a long time. Played many nighttime rounds there back in the late 80s while in college. Nothing special about any of the holes but it was always crowded back then.
http://www.arroyosecogc.com/ (http://www.arroyosecogc.com/)
I started playing at age 8 or 9 and played there and Arcadia par 3 almost exclusively until I started playing "big" courses when I was about 13. Great places to learn the game. Arroyo Seco was the nicer of the two.
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Why not bump up a few small greens on the range and offer pitch and putt during certain hours?
When it opened Quintero featured 9 smallish greens on the range that were tightly mowed -nothing else. Zero maintenance costs. The first hole teed at one end of the range teeing area and played to its other end.
Or how about a public park with play each weekday morning until noon?
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In this morning’s local newspapers, it has been announced that 401 Golf will be closing soon, replaced by a multi use residential and commercial development. 401 Golf has been open since 1972, and the driving range is the one shown in the movie “Bull Durham”.
401 Golf occupies 72 acres south of Raleigh, NC, in unincorporated Wake County. There is a driving range, a putt-putt course, and a “9 hole par 3 pitch and putt” course (their words) with holes ranging from 50 to 115 yards. 401 sells monthly memberships, and the walk up rate to play the par 3 range from $6 to $9 depending on the day of the week and time of day.
There is also a golf school and a pro shop,as well as a food and beverage operation, and, by all accounts, business has boomed since the beginning of the pandemic in 2020.
The sale price for the site hasn’t been announced, nor has the timeline for either the closing or construction.
Granted that The Triangle is one of the real boom areas in the country for real estate development, but it’s also worth noting that 401Golf is well south of Raleigh, and well east of either Durham or Chapel Hill.
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There was once a 9-hole par 3 course and driving range in the HEART of downtown Chicago and I think it was done by PB Dye.
Had a replica of #17 at TPC Sawdust.
I lived at the time about 2 miles from it and NEVER once played it.
It was bulldozed about 15 years ago and now has apartment buildings on its site.
Dont know why it didnt work, but it sure did not work.
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There was once a 9-hole par 3 course and driving range in the HEART of downtown Chicago and I think it was done by PB Dye.
Had a replica of #17 at TPC Sawdust.
I lived at the time about 2 miles from it and NEVER once played it.
It was bulldozed about 15 years ago and now has apartment buildings on its site.
Dont know why it didnt work, but it sure did not work.
Ian,
TPC Sawdust? Misspell or code for something else? ;D
P.S. Pretty sure it didn't work because even a few acres for something like that in downtown Chicago of all places, gotta be worth a shit ton. Reminds me of this run down Carls Jr with a large parking lot in the heart of downtown SLC that I couldn't figure out why it wasn't bought up years ago. Guess they finally made em an offer they couldn't refuse, as now they're constructing what will be the tallest building in Utah there.