Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David_Tepper on June 19, 2022, 06:56:04 PM
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He wins his first major as a caddie after 40 years of caddying for some of the best players in the game.
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Caddies are a total waste of space and time. Golf would be immeasurably better without them.
F.
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Caddies are a total waste of space and time. Golf would be immeasurably better without them.
F.
That might be a tough sell to guys on the TOUR.
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It’s also incredibly idiotic. Sorry Marty, but terrible take.
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Billy Foster tells some great stories about caddying for Seve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrP5R3gFAgo
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It’s also incredibly idiotic. Sorry Marty, but terrible take.
Do tell what caddies bring to the game.
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I was the walking official with Lee Westwood and Billy at the 2007 and 2010 US Opens (2 rounds). Billy is a great guy and has a wonderful sense of humor. I’m very happy for him.
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It’s like a bring a Grip working on an Academy Award winning picture. The sense of accomplishment must be overwhelming. We should all experience such success. Congrats. Congrats indeed.
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It's odd to me when people credit caddies with tournament wins. They are a part of the staff and maybe the player wouldn't have won with someone else carrying their clubs, but the caddie doesn't hit a single shot.
How many majors did Steve Williams "win" when he didn't happen to be carrying for Woods?
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It's odd to me when people credit caddies with tournament wins. They are a part of the staff and maybe the player wouldn't have won with someone else carrying their clubs, but the caddie doesn't hit a single shot.
How many majors did Steve Williams "win" when he didn't happen to be carrying for Woods?
It is the same way instructors get credit for a win. They all play part, how important is that part depends on player and his needs.
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John M. and John K. -
The reason I started this thread was to acknowledge the decades that Billy Foster has been part of the game and congratulate him in some small way for what I am sure was a very rewarding and gratifying experience for him.
I make no claim that any caddie wins a tournament for a professional golfer. On the other hand, there is little doubt in my mind that some caddies are better than others and some do contribute to a golfer's performance in some small way.
It would certainly be interesting to hear what golfers who have won majors have to say on the subject.
DT
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Whether a caddy contributes to a tournament win depends on the caddy and player. Justin Thomas and Matt Fitzpatrick seem to value their caddies. The price paid for services suggests hat there is value added.
But on a more basic level, caddies are a wonderful way to introduce youth to the game. In Chicago, the birthplace of the Evans Scholar Foundation, young men and women earn a significant amount of money during their summer breaks. They are exposed to the game and the lucky (and talented) ones can even earn a full ride to college. Others benefit from other scholarships. We work hard to keep caddy programs alive. Playing with a caddy is a real pleasure and encourages walking. Golf is much more than the professional game.
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David,
I meant no harm. Being a Grip on an Oscar wining picture must be very satisfying and even career defining.
My apologies.
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Whether a caddy contributes to a tournament win depends on the caddy and player. Justin Thomas and Matt Fitzpatrick seem to value their caddies. The price paid for services suggests hat there is value added.
But on a more basic level, caddies are a wonderful way to introduce youth to the game. In Chicago, the birthplace of the Evans Scholar Foundation, young men and women earn a significant amount of money during their summer breaks. They are exposed to the game and the lucky (and talented) ones can even earn a full ride to college. Others benefit from other scholarships. We work hard to keep caddy programs alive. Playing with a caddy is a real pleasure and encourages walking. Golf is much more than the professional game.
Hogan, Nelson, Snead, Hagan, Sarazen, Casper, and Evans himself. Pretty good list of caddies.
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David's original post said that Foster "wins his first major as a caddie." That's the comment that I responded to. Of course caddies have value and the amount of value depends on the player needs and relationship. I'm not diminishing that. I just don't think that caddies should get recognized as winning a tournament if they aren't the one playing - especially on a website devoted (at times) to the discussion of Golf Course Architecture.
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John H. -
Just a guess on my part, but it would not surprise me at all that, among his fellow tour caddies, more than one of them said or thought "nice to see Billy win his first major."
It's a matter of perspective. ;)
DT
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I'm kind of stunned by a few of the opinions on this thread. Really?
- Part of the game since the early 19th century.
- An honest and healthy way to make a living, get through college, etc.
- Enable a certain demographic to keep walking when they can't or don't choose to lug the bag any longer.
- A pipeline into the game.
- Collaborating with players lousy and legendary with apparently positive results or they would have all disappeared by now.
- Explicitly and profusely thanked by most of your favorite Pro golfers when they win because they added value.
- Add personality and interest to the tours what, no Fluff, Bones, Carl Jackson, Tony Navarro, Herman Mitchell, Tip Anderson, Joe Lacava, Angelo, Fanny, Squeeky, Bruce Edwards, Andy Martinez, and yes, Steve Williams among many many others. They have added a lot of enjoyment to watching the game, at least for me.
+1 for Evans Scholars, add Ouimet Fund and I am sure a score of regional/local programs.
No Eddie Lowery?
I think caddies add a lot to the game, whether they are on your bag or Matt Fitzpatrick's --- or even if you're just a spectator.
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I think a more interesting question is, outside of Tiger Woods...
Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie? Carrying the bag for 72 holes, up and down often very hill golf courses, getting all your own yardages, raking your bunkers, keeping grips dry in the rain, having one to bounce ideas and confirm judgments with, having an ally, helping you with a read on the green, etc...the list goes on and on
So while a caddy doesn't win PGA Tournaments, the chances of winning on Tour without one is basically nil, (unless no one has one..)
P.S. I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?
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I think a more interesting question is, outside of Tiger Woods...
Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie? Carrying the bag for 72 holes, up and down often very hill golf courses, getting all your own yardages, raking your bunkers, keeping grips dry in the rain, having one to bounce ideas and confirm judgments with, having an ally, helping you with a read on the green, etc...the list goes on and on
So while a caddy doesn't win PGA Tournaments, the chances of winning on Tour without one is basically nil, (unless no one has one..)
P.S. I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?
If what your say is true wouldn't it be in the interest of architecture to fire all the caddies on tour. At an average increase of 5 shots per tournament there is no more need for high rough or way back tees. Are caddies the reason our great courses are becoming obsolete?
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I think a more interesting question is, outside of Tiger Woods...
Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie? Carrying the bag for 72 holes, up and down often very hill golf courses, getting all your own yardages, raking your bunkers, keeping grips dry in the rain, having one to bounce ideas and confirm judgments with, having an ally, helping you with a read on the green, etc...the list goes on and on
So while a caddy doesn't win PGA Tournaments, the chances of winning on Tour without one is basically nil, (unless no one has one..)
P.S. I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?
If what your say is true wouldn't it be in the interest of architecture to fire all the caddies on tour. At an average increase of 5 shots per tournament there is no more need for high rough or way back tees. Are caddies the reason our great courses are becoming obsolete?
The reason courses are becoming obsolete are mostly due to the ball, not the caddies.
Without caddies, average time to complete a round would no doubt increase with all the extra duties the player would incur, and I don't think anyone wants that.
And sure, between extra exertion over the course of a round, and lack of caddie advice, I suspect winning scores would in fact increase!
P.S. For that matter, maybe we could "fix" bomb and gouge, by also banning fore-caddies and spectators, so players would incur more lost ball penalties and have extra incentive to hit it shorter and straighter. Imagine watching all those glorious walks of shame! ;D
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Talent would adapt and it would be same scores, different winners. Caddies are a tradition that I would hate to see go away.
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P.S. I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?
This is a odd analogy to use.
Coaches in team sports have much more responsibility for the outcome of a game than a caddie does. Those coaches are making decisions that the players are tasked with implementing. While professional sports are a bit different in terms of indirect power that highly paid players possess, coaches are generally in charge of what happens. They aren't simply "actively advising."
Surely you understand the difference?
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Do tell what caddies bring to the game.
In 2018 I caddied for a chap in the U.K. final of the BMW International at the Castle Course, St Andrews. I was surprised only around half of the field had a caddie.
My guy had a reasonable front nine, then a wobble, after three putting the 12th the player said he’d had enough and was giving up on the score card. I persuaded him to keep plugging away and enjoy the round, he kept going and finished with three straight par net birdies and walked off with 33 points. A decent effort for a guy who’d given up on his round.
As we were greenkeeping at St Andrews that year I was up at 4.30am and found a text on my phone sent after midnight. My guy had won on count back and was going to the world final in Mexico. The prize included his wife, business class flights, 7 days in a 5* hotel, practice rounds, tournament and a high end entertainment package for non golfing partners. Basically a £10-£15,000 package.
The golfer finished 3rd in the world final. Not bad for £80 and a round he’d mentally given up on. He messaged to say without me he wouldn’t have been off to Mexico.
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From the NY Post:
https://nypost.com/2022/06/19/us-open-matt-fitzpatrick-delivers-caddie-unbelievable-first-major/
"And yet the first-time major winner almost seemed more taken by his caddie’s breakthrough. “It means the world to Billy,” Fitzpatrick said. “I can’t tell you how much it means to Billy. It’s unbelievable. I know it’s something he’s wanted for a long, long, long time. To do it today is incredible.” '
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Do tell what caddies bring to the game.
In 2018 I caddied for a chap in the U.K. final of the BMW International at the Castle Course, St Andrews. I was surprised only around half of the field had a caddie.
My guy had a reasonable front nine, then a wobble, after three putting the 12th the player said he’d had enough and was giving up on the score card. I persuaded him to keep plugging away and enjoy the round, he kept going and finished with three straight par net birdies and walked off with 33 points. A decent effort for a guy who’d given up on his round.
As we were greenkeeping at St Andrews that year I was up at 4.30am and found a text on my phone sent after midnight. My guy had won on count back and was going to the world final in Mexico. The prize included his wife, business class flights, 7 days in a 5* hotel, practice rounds, tournament and a high end entertainment package for non golfing partners. Basically a £10-£15,000 package.
The golfer finished 3rd in the world final. Not bad for £80 and a round he’d mentally given up on. He messaged to say without me he wouldn’t have been off to Mexico.
Great story. What was his handicap? He needed 3 straight pars to make the world final and he was going to quit. How did he survive breakfast without a butler?
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If I recall he was around a 13, it was a very blustery day and he qualified with 33 points on count back so made almost a third of his points in the last 3 holes. He probably thought as in most of those kind of events 40 was required, but anyone who knows the Castle Course is well aware it’s tough on the average player.
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If I recall he was around a 13, it was a very blustery day and he qualified with 33 points on count back so made almost a third of his points in the last 3 holes. He probably thought as in most of those kind of events 40 was required, but anyone who knows the Castle Course is well aware it’s tough on the average player.
Great story Chappers.! You can marshall a guy around a course for sure.
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;D
Marty , really ???
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How many majors did Steve Williams "win" when he didn't happen to be carrying for Woods?
Two majors and 82 player wins with others (Norman, Floyd, Adam Scott, Day - 25 years)
Twelve majors and 63 player wins with Woods (13 years)...
You might still be obtuse in the face of such stats, but at least you'll see fine, successful golfers, past and present, major winners all, including the greatest modern champion, who thought the guy was somehow important or valuable to their success...kept him around and paid him enough millions that he seemingly owns most of New Zealand.
I mean, what are you f'n trolls talking about? Congrats Billy Foster, what a great payoff for a wonderful career; everyone's happy in his orbit. And way to go Fitzpatrick for recognizing his man's contribution and sharing the glory. Kid gets it.
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Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie?
Vijay said he would manage fine without a caddy.
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Guess Billy's now going to have two stories to dine out on ...... Seve's over he wall shot at Crans and now Matt's fairway bunker shot at Brookline.
atb
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Can't help thinking that one day Rory will reflect and realise there's a difference between BFF and best caddie?
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I equate caddies with jockeys in horse racing. Jockeys also get credit for wins but never run a race. They just steer the horse and give them the whip when they need it. ;D
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How many majors did Steve Williams "win" when he didn't happen to be carrying for Woods?
Two majors and 82 player wins with others (Norman, Floyd, Adam Scott, Day - 25 years)
Twelve majors and 63 player wins with Woods (13 years)...
You might still be obtuse in the face of such stats, but at least you'll see fine, successful golfers, past and present, major winners all, including the greatest modern champion, who thought the guy was somehow important or valuable to their success...kept him around and paid him enough millions that he seemingly owns most of New Zealand.
I mean, what are you f'n trolls talking about? Congrats Billy Foster, what a great payoff for a wonderful career; everyone's happy in his orbit. And way to go Fitzpatrick for recognizing his man's contribution and sharing the glory. Kid gets it.
You know someone has a quality argument when they throw out insults like obtuse and troll to make their point!
I've never said that caddies don't provide value to professional golfers. My point all along was that the caddie isn't the one that won the tournament - that's all.
Forgive my ongoing obtuse nature, but I see the stats you provided much differently. In 13 years with Woods, there were at most 52 possible majors and Woods won 12 of them - 23%. In the other 25 years, there were 100 possible majors and the other players won 2 of them - 2%. How is this disproving my suggestion that Steve Williams "won" majors based on who the player was?
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He wins his first major as a caddie after 40 years of caddying for some of the best players in the game.
Gotta admire/applaud any person experiencing the summit after so many years of work and dedication. I'll wager his colleagues view his week as a win.
Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie?
Vijay said he would manage fine without a caddy.
Yet, he didn't go without one. ??? I've also heard caddies could do without Vijay.
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I just don't think that caddies should get recognized as winning a tournament if they aren't the one playing - especially on a website devoted (at times) to the discussion of Golf Course Architecture.
John, did I read this too snidely?
Seems most (pro/great) caddies would know/offer a lot about each course's architecture.
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John, I take it that you would be satisfied if Billy was congratulated for "being on the winner's bag" instead of for "winning". I can accept that distinction while continuing to maintain the value of a good caddy and the value of a caddy program.
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I just don't think that caddies should get recognized as winning a tournament if they aren't the one playing - especially on a website devoted (at times) to the discussion of Golf Course Architecture.
John, did I read this too snidely?
Seems most (pro/great) caddies would know/offer a lot about each course's architecture.
Peter,
Billy Foster may know tons more about golf architecture than I do. But there's no discussion of golf architecture on this post. For that matter, Mohammed Bin Salman could have many novel ideas about golf architecture, but those aren't being discussed on the various Saudi/LIV posts. I was simply commenting on the fact that threads like this belong somewhere other than GCA. Then, like a good hypocrite, I post on it.... I'll try to do the right thing and end my participation on this thread with this post.
Shelly,
As I have often seen, you have a way of more clearly expressing thoughts than the original poster. I completely agree with your post.
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I was wondering which golfer in my lifetime could have used a great caddie. Doug Sanders came to mind. In the following article written by a lifelong caddie he takes no responsibility for even a single shot. I will give him credit for respecting women in a manner foreign to me as a 19 year old in the 70's.
https://www.alifein.golf/home/2016/4/17/doug-sanders
Who was on the bag when DS missed that famous short putt?
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He wins his first major as a caddie after 40 years of caddying for some of the best players in the game.
Gotta admire/applaud any person experiencing the summit after so many years of work and dedication. I'll wager his colleagues view his week as a win.
Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie?
Vijay said he would manage fine without a caddy.
Yet, he didn't go without one. ??? I've also heard caddies could do without Vijay.
He didn’t have a choice. Caddies are required on tour.