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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 10:49:50 AM

Title: Slumps
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 10:49:50 AM
Looking at Rickie Fowler this week hoping to get into the Open when someone withdraws makes me sad. There is no accounting for slumps. Some guys, like Spieth, can come out of them. Some guys like Duval and Baker Finch never do. I was in a two year slump. Don't know why I had it or how I got out of it. They are a mystery.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 17, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
Looking at Rickie Fowler this week hoping to get into the Open when someone withdraws makes me sad. There is no accounting for slumps. Some guys, like Spieth, can come out of them. Some guys like Duval and Baker Finch never do. I was in a two year slump. Don't know why I had it or how I got out of it. They are a mystery.
Who is to say it is a slump, and not just a slightly longer than normal hot streak? Is Brooks in a slump, or did he simply get hot for 16 months?
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on June 17, 2022, 11:23:42 AM
Architects worry about soil slumps, usually a combo of excess rain, steep banks, and loose soil particles.   :D


I have had a few spectacular holes eliminated from consideration after reading a Geotech report advising against putting a golf hole on the very edge of a high ridge, due to potential slumping.  That is always disappointing......


Just to bring it back to architecture........LOL
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 11:27:03 AM

Just to bring it back to architecture........LOL


Along the same line of bringing it back to architecture. I live on a course that is pretty user friendly. I could still score decently on it, yet it didn't make a difference to me because I still didn't hit the ball as well as I was used to.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Robert Mercer Deruntz on June 17, 2022, 11:33:18 AM
Having seen Rickie's swing as a kid, and having worked with top players who had interesting ideosyncrasies, it probably was a bad choice to change his back swing to downswing part of his swing.  Though Butch tightened up his swing, he had the wisdom to not mess with the transition.  Unfortunately, he was sold a bill of goods by another instructor who failed to recognize that transition as an integral part of his swing's success.  This is a slump, but if he has the fortitude, he will emerge a stronger player.  Hopefully, he will seek an instructor like Jeff Warne, Jim Suttie, and Jim McLean who are very adept at helping great players with interesting swing components.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on June 17, 2022, 11:38:29 AM
Tommy,


I think there is some psychology to slumps on particular golf courses.  I recall a hole on the course my HS golf team played, with a real narrow chute for the tee shot.  Somehow, I got it through the first time I played, and never had trouble with that hole.  Others could never hit that narrow fw.


There is also the old horses for courses saying which could mean it would be a bad time to slump break if you are playing a course that doesn't fit your game.  If your game is such that no course fits it.....hmm.


Other than that, yes slumps are a mystery.  I will say that of all the pros I know, they could tell you if they were going to be top 5 that week based on their practice and prep, and somewhat based on how well they felt they could play a certain course.  By contrast, I am sure they know the weeks they have no chance to win.


As to long term, I recall playing a grand opening with a well known DFW area pro from the last generation.  He was in the midst of a very long and well publicized slump, and even shanked about half the shots he made in our little 9 hole exhibition.  At some point, it must be all between the ears, methinks.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Rob Marshall on June 17, 2022, 12:40:19 PM
Having seen Rickie's swing as a kid, and having worked with top players who had interesting ideosyncrasies, it probably was a bad choice to change his back swing to downswing part of his swing.  Though Butch tightened up his swing, he had the wisdom to not mess with the transition.  Unfortunately, he was sold a bill of goods by another instructor who failed to recognize that transition as an integral part of his swing's success.  This is a slump, but if he has the fortitude, he will emerge a stronger player.  Hopefully, he will seek an instructor like Jeff Warne, Jim Suttie, and Jim McLean who are very adept at helping great players with interesting swing components.


When you have been a student of the game for almost 50 years you learn that when certain people speak you have to listen. Just a wealth of information. You hit the nail on the head with those three.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Steve Lang on June 18, 2022, 01:12:35 AM

Just to bring it back to architecture........LOL


Along the same line of bringing it back to architecture. I live on a course that is pretty user friendly. I could still score decently on it, yet it didn't make a difference to me because I still didn't hit the ball as well as I was used to.




So its your angle of repose at play to define a slump in soil or play,,, its always relative to one's expectations, on a sliding scale of happy
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Thomas Dai on June 18, 2022, 04:46:07 AM
Look up Ralph Guldahl. No TV booth to transfer to back then.
atb
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Bruce Katona on June 18, 2022, 10:03:57 AM
I was thinking about slump in poured concrete Jeff Brauer, not soil.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: DFarron on June 18, 2022, 12:59:47 PM
It’s super interesting that a lot of these your stars like to dump great teachers like Butch because he’s not “hip” and they jump to one of the new cool kid teachers and fall into the abyss.


Meanwhile players like Harold Varner and Danielle Kang are vastly improved and players like Rory, Webb Simpson are sneaking in under the radar to take lessons from Butch.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on June 18, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
Looking at Rickie Fowler this week hoping to get into the Open when someone withdraws makes me sad. There is no accounting for slumps. Some guys, like Spieth, can come out of them. Some guys like Duval and Baker Finch never do. I was in a two year slump. Don't know why I had it or how I got out of it. They are a mystery.
Who is to say it is a slump, and not just a slightly longer than normal hot streak? Is Brooks in a slump, or did he simply get hot for 16 months?
During Brooks' "slump" he has had a T2 in the PGA a T4 in the US Open and a T6 in the Open Championship - those are all in 2021.  That's a slump?
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: mike_beene on June 19, 2022, 12:00:53 AM
Morikowa is a good example: he can’t figure out how to hit is preferred cut and is looking at old swings .Pretty impressive he made the cut.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 19, 2022, 07:58:41 AM
During Brooks' "slump" he has had a T2 in the PGA a T4 in the US Open and a T6 in the Open Championship - those are all in 2021.  That's a slump?
I didn't say he was in a slump - I asked the question and said that he may have just had a hot streak. Is Jordan in a slump, or did he just play way above his level and "get hot" for awhile (admittedly he's probably in my second bullet point below)?

Kinda depends on how you define "slump." IMO, to have a "slump," one of two things needs to happen:
You see it all the time in other sports. A lifetime .297 hitter over 11 seasons goes 12-for-June one year. Clearly a slump. Meanwhile, a player comes up from AAA and hits .327 the first four months… before falling back down to the .266 hitter he is because pitchers get the book on him. Not a slump.

The "sophomore slump" is only ever a slump if the player comes out of it. Otherwise, it's just what type of ball player they are.

Players get hot from time to time. I don't think it's always a "slump" when they kinda return to their more normal level.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Jerry Kluger on June 19, 2022, 08:25:36 AM
I understand the swing issue with the tour players but putting stats are also quite interesting: Total putting ranks of interest: Dustin Johnson 192, Colin Morikawa 163, Ricky Fowler 155, Jordan Spieth 143.  It does seem that too often players attribute a slump to their swing while it is quite hard to score well when your putting is bad.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Rick Sides on June 19, 2022, 08:31:33 AM
I think being a professional athlete can be mentally draining at times and so much of success is based between the ears . When I think of slump, mental block , I can help but think of second baseman  chuck knoblauch not being able to throw to first base
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 19, 2022, 08:38:01 AM
I think being a professional athlete can be mentally draining at times and so much of success is based between the ears . When I think of slump, mental block , I can help but think of second baseman  chuck knoblauch not being able to throw to first base
That's not a slump, that's the yips. Steve Blass Syndrome/Disease.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 19, 2022, 09:28:20 AM
Funny thing about golf. When I got on a hot streak, like Erik is suggesting, I thought that I got it figured out and wouldn't play poorly ever again. When I was in my two year slump I thought I'd never play well again because I got old.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Cal Carlisle on June 19, 2022, 09:37:30 AM
Maybe he just hit his peak.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Steve Lang on June 19, 2022, 11:17:47 AM
I think being a professional athlete can be mentally draining at times and so much of success is based between the ears . When I think of slump, mental block , I can help but think of second baseman  chuck knoblauch not being able to throw to first base


I played first base for a handful of years in grade school/jr high little league and had one 2nd baseman that could easily turn the 6-4-3, but could not, for his life, throw with any authority to me at 1st, after fielding a simple ground ball, it was always a wildcard how he'd toss it, high low, right, left in that 20-30 ft...  so I always can relate to that 6 inch space between the ears issue... pro or am


 
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: cary lichtenstein on June 19, 2022, 12:37:23 PM
Even the great ones have slumps, how could Rory have not won a major since 2014, seems impossible, hope he wins today, go Rory!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: David_Tepper on June 19, 2022, 12:46:21 PM
What ever happened to Hunter Mahan?
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on June 19, 2022, 10:24:50 PM
What ever happened to Hunter Mahan?
You must have missed this from CPG:

https://twitter.com/ClubProGuy/status/1537585820894232581?s=20&t=215QGOPRF4_iNlzMMEqNmA
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: David_Tepper on June 19, 2022, 10:41:00 PM
Wayne -

Yes, I did miss that one. CPG is not in my regular viewing rotation. :)

DT
 
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on June 20, 2022, 10:47:44 AM
I was thinking about a slump in poured concrete Jeff Brauer, not soil.


Well, that is important, too.  My personal take is that golf course construction doesn't test concrete nearly as intensively as they do in building construction.  Of course cart paths can only crack, but they can't fall down, LOL.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Jason Topp on June 20, 2022, 11:02:30 AM
There is a one stroke difference per round between being a top player and struggling to keep your job.


In 2019, Rickie Fowler gained 1.066 shots on the field per round and won four million dollars, finishing 15th on tour.


In 2022, he has gained .037 shots per round on the field and is 96th on the money list with just less than one million. 


Three quarters of the difference (0.75 strokes per round) is putting. 
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Ira Fishman on June 20, 2022, 12:38:01 PM
The number of players with the talent and aspiration to play Pro golf has grown both because of population growth and more countries producing top flight golfers. The number of Major Championships has stayed the same. It just is so darn difficult to win a Major, not that it ever was easy, that I am not sure that Slump is an appropriate concept. Tiger truly is a once in a couple generation talent.
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: PPallotta on June 20, 2022, 12:59:29 PM
JT, IF - thanks for those stats and posts, which put much of this thread in good perspective. To paraphrase F. Scott Fitzgerald, tour pros aren't like you and me -- our pet theories and personal experiences and anecdotal analogies don't apply to them. Meanwhile, my own 'slump' is now of such long standing that I've come to realize it's actually the real me, and a reflection of my true game and skill level, and that the occasional good score I shot three years ago was merely an accidental outlier produced by smoke and mirrors. To be honest, I feel better and much relieved to admit that -- it's the (false) hope and (unfulfilled) expectations that are so very hard to bear! 

 
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Steve Lang on June 20, 2022, 03:20:50 PM
 8)  Peter,


Sounds like you got to Step 4 OR 5 ???...  Good on Ya!


Step One:  “We admitted we were powerless over golf–that our lives had become unmanageable.”
Step Two: "We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”
Step Three:“We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a PGA Professional as we understood Him.”
Step Four: “We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.”
Step Five: “We admitted to our PGA Professional, to ourselves and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.”
Step Six:  “We were entirely ready to have our PGA Professional remove all these defects of character.”
Step Seven:  “We humbly asked our PGA Professional to remove our shortcomings.”
Step Eight: “We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.”
Step Nine:“Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”
Step Ten: “Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.”
Step Eleven:  “We sought through practice and meditation to improve our conscious contact with our PGA Professional as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.”
Step Twelve:  “Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to all golfers, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.”
Title: Re: Slumps
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 20, 2022, 04:07:13 PM
I'm inclined to think most of these guys don't get in slumps as Erik suggested.

Its more along the lines of everyone on Tour is crazy good, and from time to time someone gets hot, wins a bunch, and that's that.  Golf is littered with these kinds of players, like Hunter Mayhan, Chris Demarco, or Anthony Kim to name a few.  Even someone like John Daly was lucky enough to get hot a couple of times despite his complete lack of training regimen.

Its 100% plausible that someone like Scottie Scheffler, the latest hot player, will be 105th on the money list in just a couple of years from now.