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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on June 16, 2022, 05:25:26 PM

Title: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 16, 2022, 05:25:26 PM
It all looks so idyllic. Beautiful home and loving family. Was 1913 a utopian society where working in a sporting goods store is considered child labor?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Ouimet
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on June 16, 2022, 06:00:53 PM
Sounds like this is a "you issue".  ;D


The David v. Goliath story works better when it is also painted as a class contrast.
Harry Vardon may have been poorer.


They all faired well in the end, especially Eddy!

Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 16, 2022, 06:14:11 PM
Watched the featured group feed today and the announcer choked on saying “Country Club” like it was the dirty word it is. Coupled with the beautiful drone shots of my dream home it made me wonder if subversive tactics were at hand solidifying the concept that American golf is as elitist as it was in 1913.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 16, 2022, 06:25:09 PM
John,


1) Harvard Football was retroactively declared "National Champions" for their 1913 season - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913_Harvard_Crimson_football_team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913_Harvard_Crimson_football_team)


2) Boston College moved from South Boston (Jesuit run, Irish neighborhood) to bucolic Chestnut Hill and Brookline in 1913 - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Boston-College (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Boston-College)


Lots of class movement and sporting opposites in 1913 in Boston.


Not arguing, actually agreeing with your observations. Ouimet was from a "mixed race" family too!! French Canadien Father + Irish (born in) Mother. Please define "poor"? Poor in money does not equal poor in spirit:


(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fDS1UVdf4s4/VL-MiKmThvI/AAAAAAAAAvw/_UUSMETDPrs/s1600/poor-in-spirit.jpg)
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 16, 2022, 09:43:30 PM
French Canadian mother and Irish Father sounds like genetic heaven. Just ask my kids.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on June 17, 2022, 04:44:21 AM
The David v. Goliath story works better when it is also painted as a class contrast.
Harry Vardon may have been poorer.


They all faired well in the end, especially Eddy!


The media writes a narrative that will get attention, even in that era.  The fact that they all faired well in the end shows he wasn't poor.


I do think golf in the US has a larger divide in class/wealth than in the UK/Ireland...it's just not official like it was previously in the UK (Lords/Commons).  I'm on a NI/Ireland trip now and have randomly been paired with a billionaire golf developer and a grocery store worker.  That being said I also played the Valley at Portrush and it's pretty clear they still have a bit of a class system in play...but I'd take playing on the Valley course every day.


Our ability to play a leisure game/sport like golf shows we're doing pretty good in life.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Rob Marshall on June 17, 2022, 08:29:30 AM
The David v. Goliath story works better when it is also painted as a class contrast.
Harry Vardon may have been poorer.


They all faired well in the end, especially Eddy!


The media writes a narrative that will get attention, even in that era.  The fact that they all faired well in the end shows he wasn't poor.


I do think golf in the US has a larger divide in class/wealth than in the UK/Ireland...it's just not official like it was previously in the UK (Lords/Commons).  I'm on a NI/Ireland trip now and have randomly been paired with a billionaire golf developer and a grocery store worker.  That being said I also played the Valley at Portrush and it's pretty clear they still have a bit of a class system in play...but I'd take playing on the Valley course every day.


Our ability to play a leisure game/sport like golf shows we're doing pretty good in life.


I too could play the Valley course every day. I played it before they lost a couple of holes to the Dunluce
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Paul Jones on June 17, 2022, 08:33:27 AM
My friend and I played Royal Liverpool about 7 years ago.  After we were finished, the caddies asked us if we would like to go upstairs and have a drink and play snookers.  I mention that I thought that was for members only and the caddies tell us not to worry, they are members.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: jeffwarne on June 17, 2022, 08:39:25 AM
His family "owned" a house-FULL STOP




which happened to be across the street from one of the top clubs in the country, in one of the more affluent cities in the country.
Poor people don't "OWN" houses.


Working class sure.And sure money was tight, but poor?
No
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 10:14:52 AM
His house sold for $875,000 a little while ago.


https://apnews.com/article/sports-united-states-golf-0d5887ab204ce93836676b93f3bb2629 (https://apnews.com/article/sports-united-states-golf-0d5887ab204ce93836676b93f3bb2629)
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 17, 2022, 10:49:40 AM
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence.  Hell the USGA even made its own amateur championship series for second class non-private club players...

P.S.  I'll bet the LIV guys are secretly snickering at how "poor" most of thier ex-PGATour mates are..
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Cliff Hamm on June 17, 2022, 11:42:32 AM
Current status of Ouimet's childhood house:




https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/06/06/sports/brookline-resident-buys-francis-ouimets-boyhood-house-with-eye-renovation-preservation/?p1=BGSearch_Overlay_Results (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/06/06/sports/brookline-resident-buys-francis-ouimets-boyhood-house-with-eye-renovation-preservation/?p1=BGSearch_Overlay_Results)
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: MCirba on June 17, 2022, 12:31:52 PM
All you need to know about class, wealth, and privilege in the United States in 1913 is that an American had already won the US Open prior to Ouimet...two years in a row, in fact, but a former caddie who turned...horror of horrors...into a golf professional didn't resonate as a great American success story in a society where such laborers were seen as a necessary evil not befitting proper society.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Rob Marshall on June 17, 2022, 01:10:44 PM
All you need to know about class, wealth, and privilege in the United States in 1913 is that an American had already won the US Open prior to Ouimet...two years in a row, in fact, but a former caddie who turned...horror of horrors...into a golf professional didn't resonate as a great American success story in a society where such laborers were seen as a necessary evil not befitting proper society.


He was a life long Amateur.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: MCirba on June 17, 2022, 02:01:20 PM
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.


I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Rob Marshall on June 17, 2022, 02:35:15 PM
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.


I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


Got it
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: JohnVDB on June 17, 2022, 03:04:07 PM
My friend and I played Royal Liverpool about 7 years ago.  After we were finished, the caddies asked us if we would like to go upstairs and have a drink and play snookers.  I mention that I thought that was for members only and the caddies tell us not to worry, they are members.


A lot of caddies are members. Almost all, if not all of the caddies at Dornoch are members.  I played Nairn with a couple of older members who caddied in the summer to supplement their retirement incomes.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 04:14:32 PM

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


This John J McDermott. He won the US Open at age 19, the second youngest person to ever win a major. I have a soft spot in my heart for him. He lost a playoff for the Open in 1910. I guess he was very brash and didn't win many friends. In 1913 he won the Shawnee Open, in which Vardon and Ray played. Evidently he told them in no uncertain terms that they should go home because they had no chance to win the Open at TCC. He went on to finish 8th in 1913. A year later he had some kind of breakdown and spent the next 60 years in and out of mental hospitals. There is speculation that some of his  outbursts might have been early manifestations of his illness. His is a sad story and is one of the ultimate "might have been" stories.


In 1971 his sisters brought him to Merion where he watched Trevino win. Palmer recognized him and befriended him when he was asked to leave the pro shop. a few weeks later he was dead.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: MCirba on June 17, 2022, 04:20:53 PM
Tommy,


My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.


I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 04:32:38 PM
Tommy,


My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.


I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.


Good for Mr. Burns. I hope there is a book as well. I’d like to know more about him. The early part of the 20th century was not a good time to have some kind of mental/emotional problem.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 17, 2022, 04:47:36 PM
Tommy,
My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.
I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.
Good for Mr. Burns. I hope there is a book as well. I’d like to know more about him. The early part of the 20th century was not a good time to have some kind of mental/emotional problem.
Yes, indeed, on both counts.
If I'm not mistaken, a year after Quimet's win another -- but very different -- working class professional won the US Open, Walter Hagen. God bless him, the grit and verve and moxie that he brought as an early pro to those then-genteel amateur environments. He drank, he smoked, he caroused and he lived large -- then and now perhaps at least some kind of bulwark against the stresses and strains that can so ravage our often fragile psyches.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 17, 2022, 04:53:16 PM
Tommy,


My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.


I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.


Good for Mr. Burns. I hope there is a book as well. I’d like to know more about him. The early part of the 20th century was not a good time to have some kind of mental/emotional problem.


Which is exactly why I am lucky to be living now.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike_Trenham on June 17, 2022, 06:59:07 PM

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


This John J McDermott. He won the US Open at age 19, the second youngest person to ever win a major. I have a soft spot in my heart for him. He lost a playoff for the Open in 1910. I guess he was very brash and didn't win many friends. In 1913 he won the Shawnee Open, in which Vardon and Ray played. Evidently he told them in no uncertain terms that they should go home because they had no chance to win the Open at TCC. He went on to finish 8th in 1913. A year later he had some kind of breakdown and spent the next 60 years in and out of mental hospitals. There is speculation that some of his  outbursts might have been early manifestations of his illness. His is a sad story and is one of the ultimate "might have been" stories.


In 1971 his sisters brought him to Merion where he watched Trevino win. Palmer recognized him and befriended him when he was asked to leave the pro shop. a few weeks later he was dead.


This story about the 1971 US Open is not true.  He was well known by all the golf professionals in Philadelphia, the person this was attached to as having asked him to leave was never an an assistant at Merion and likes to embellish a bit.  I would not doubt he was ignored by others in the event, but it was always a welcome moment in Philadelphia when his sisters brought him around to section events and clubs.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: MCirba on June 17, 2022, 07:22:13 PM
As I recall, McDermott suffered from a readily diagnosible and medically manageable condition, had he been around today. Back then, I can't imagine what he went through.


Perhaps John, who sometimes posts here, will weigh in with more specifics.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 07:55:45 PM
As I recall, McDermott suffered from a readily diagnosible and medically manageable condition, had he been around today. Back then, I can't imagine what he went through.


Perhaps John, who sometimes posts here, will weigh in with more specifics.


When I was a pastor in Baltimore I often visited the local psychiatric hospital. Even into the 80’s patients were regularly given medication to keep them “manageable.”
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 17, 2022, 08:18:17 PM

When I was a pastor in Baltimore I often visited the local psychiatric hospital. Even into the 80’s patients were regularly given medication to keep them “manageable.”


"Manageable" to who? Jesus Christ?
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Terry Lavin on June 17, 2022, 08:20:52 PM
Ouimet won the 1931 US Amateur at Beverly. Bobby Jones handed him the trophy. They looked different. Jones had already done it. Ouimet was chasing his idol. They both looked prosperous.


The game has prospered too.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 17, 2022, 09:20:19 PM

When I was a pastor in Baltimore I often visited the local psychiatric hospital. Even into the 80’s patients were regularly given medication to keep them “manageable.”


"Manageable" to who? Jesus Christ?


I was using the same term that Mike used if you reread my post.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: MCirba on June 18, 2022, 09:16:47 AM
I'm not a psychiatrist and my wording is clearly imprecise. 


Please...no offense intended and I apologize for sounding insensitive.


I will check with John but if memory serves McDermott suffered from a malady that is somewhat routinely treated on an outpatient basis with medication these days.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Joe Bausch on June 18, 2022, 11:02:01 AM
I'm not a psychiatrist and my wording is clearly imprecise. 

Please...no offense intended and I apologize for sounding insensitive.

I will check with John but if memory serves McDermott suffered from a malady that is somewhat routinely treated on an outpatient basis with medication these days.

From this Links magazine article:

https://www.linksmagazine.com/characters_john_mcdermott/

It says this:

The diagnosis was schizophrenia with paranoiac tendencies
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: MCirba on June 18, 2022, 12:00:55 PM
Thank you so much Joe.


 Clearly I should stick to architecture.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Wagner on June 18, 2022, 12:09:26 PM
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence. 



What does this even mean?
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Jim Sherma on June 18, 2022, 12:47:46 PM
In 1913 golf circles someone that needed to caddy as a youth and have a wage job as a young adult would have been seen as poor relative to the crowd that defined the proper golf of the USGA clubs.


When compared to those that use summering as a verb he was poor. Relative to todays middle/upper-middle classes poor would be an improper term.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 18, 2022, 02:01:17 PM
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence. 


What does this even mean?


Unlike other sports where many players were legitimately poor growing up and rose to the ranks of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc...how often does this occur in Golf?  Outside of Tony Finau, who grew up in a lower-end middle class neighborhood of SLC, how many guys on Tour didn't have regular access to a club/course, range and practice area, regular lessons, top notch equipment, ability to travel to play events, etc.

Golf was nearly exclusive to only the affluent for most of its history, so much so that golf's governing body took pity on second class "public links" players by hosting a national championship just for them for nearly a century.  And while stigma like this have certainly improved significantly, there is no doubt a lot elitism that remains in the game which I've experienced first hand in various ways.

So its not surprising to see tone deafness where some may claim a middle class golfer who doesn't belong to a club is "poor".  I have several friends who are millionaires and still chose to play at the local muni because they refuse to join the proverbial...or literal... club.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Wagner on June 18, 2022, 03:35:16 PM
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence. 


What does this even mean?


Unlike other sports where many players were legitimately poor growing up and rose to the ranks of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc...how often does this occur in Golf?  Outside of Tony Finau, who grew up in a lower-end middle class neighborhood of SLC, how many guys on Tour didn't have regular access to a club/course, range and practice area, regular lessons, top notch equipment, ability to travel to play events, etc.

Golf was nearly exclusive to only the affluent for most of its history, so much so that golf's governing body took pity on second class "public links" players by hosting a national championship just for them for nearly a century.  And while stigma like this have certainly improved significantly, there is no doubt a lot elitism that remains in the game which I've experienced first hand in various ways.

So its not surprising to see tone deafness where some may claim a middle class golfer who doesn't belong to a club is "poor".  I have several friends who are millionaires and still chose to play at the local muni because they refuse to join the proverbial...or literal... club.


I still don't get the point. Golf is expensive and always has been? Yep. You've experienced "elitism" ... I would love to hear specific examples of that.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Peter Flory on June 18, 2022, 04:56:08 PM
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.

One thing that I didn't realize until I read about Ouimet's loss of amateur status was that anyone who caddied for money after the age of 16 would also lose their am status.  That's crazy. 

Maybe that explains why the caddies were all so young in the old pics. 
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 18, 2022, 05:40:29 PM

I still don't get the point. Golf is expensive and always has been? Yep. You've experienced "elitism" ... I would love to hear specific examples of that.


The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.


I live in Manhattan and payed $36 to play golf today on Long Island.


I practice more than I play at Spook Rock GC north of Manhattan during the week. The place is filled with kids during the summer. The Pro has placed a bunch of college golfers over the years.


This is a silly conversation. If you have talent, they will find you!! I did not have talent so...

Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Wagner on June 18, 2022, 06:15:17 PM

I still don't get the point. Golf is expensive and always has been? Yep. You've experienced "elitism" ... I would love to hear specific examples of that.


The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.


I live in Manhattan and payed $36 to play golf today on Long Island.


I practice more than I play at Spook Rock GC north of Manhattan during the week. The place is filled with kids during the summer. The Pro has placed a bunch of college golfers over the years.


This is a silly conversation. If you have talent, they will find you!! I did not have talent so...


Love this.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 18, 2022, 06:25:38 PM

Love this.


For the record, the course was "ranked" #12 in the world at one point!!


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/


And yes, $32 + $4 reservation fee :)


http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Wagner on June 19, 2022, 12:36:46 PM

Love this.


For the record, the course was "ranked" #12 in the world at one point!!


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/)


And yes, $32 + $4 reservation fee :)


http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees (http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees)


This just made my bucket list.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Joe_Tucholski on June 19, 2022, 04:48:18 PM

The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.



I often say the military is the best social welfare program we have in the US.  Providing guidance and opportunity for some who have no real path to succeed.  That being said growing up the son of a retired officer who worked for a defense contractor really isn't someone who is poor or disadvantaged.


Not to diminish Tiger as he has talked about playing in junior tournaments where he wasn't able to use locker room facilities that his competitors used.  He talks about his feelings coming up in the golf establishment at age 14.
Tiger Woods On Racism: Unedited RARE 1990 Interview - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw9iaKKrem0&t=304s)
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 19, 2022, 05:09:33 PM
You can work, inherit, lotto or scam your way out of being poor. Not the same.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Ben Sims on June 19, 2022, 05:32:21 PM

The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.



I often say the military is the best social welfare program we have in the US.  Providing guidance and opportunity for some who have no real path to succeed.  That being said growing up the son of a retired officer who worked for a defense contractor really isn't someone who is poor or disadvantaged.


Not to diminish Tiger as he has talked about playing in junior tournaments where he wasn't able to use locker room facilities that his competitors used.  He talks about his feelings coming up in the golf establishment at age 14.
Tiger Woods On Racism: Unedited RARE 1990 Interview - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw9iaKKrem0&t=304s)


Not to hijack the post, but I couldn’t agree more. More and more middle class (which Ouimet most assuredly would be if he lived in 2022) kids graduate institutions of higher learning and can’t break into the job market in their chosen fields. Then I see how successful the military is at providing solid pay, good benefits, and great training for young officers and I wonder why more don’t make that leap.


I learned to play golf on a military golf course. There was no issue of not being gilded there. Except for the retirees getting early access to tee times, it was pretty damn democratic.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on June 19, 2022, 07:01:01 PM

The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.



I often say the military is the best social welfare program we have in the US.  Providing guidance and opportunity for some who have no real path to succeed.  That being said growing up the son of a retired officer who worked for a defense contractor really isn't someone who is poor or disadvantaged.


Not to diminish Tiger as he has talked about playing in junior tournaments where he wasn't able to use locker room facilities that his competitors used.  He talks about his feelings coming up in the golf establishment at age 14.
Tiger Woods On Racism: Unedited RARE 1990 Interview - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw9iaKKrem0&t=304s)


Not to hijack the post, but I couldn’t agree more. More and more middle class (which Ouimet most assuredly would be if he lived in 2022) kids graduate institutions of higher learning and can’t break into the job market in their chosen fields. Then I see how successful the military is at providing solid pay, good benefits, and great training for young officers and I wonder why more don’t make that leap.


I learned to play golf on a military golf course. There was no issue of not being gilded there. Except for the retirees getting early access to tee times, it was pretty damn democratic.


I grew up on military courses as well, five of them. I made a friendship of one of the pros who became like a second father to me. I played golf with him until he died. I played with bunches of other kids and even worked on the ground’s crew on one of them.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 19, 2022, 08:24:38 PM
The worst golfer I ever met grew up at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis. No one cares.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Ben Sims on June 20, 2022, 12:18:36 AM
The worst golfer I ever met grew up at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis. No one cares.


I’m starting to think you meant “pleasing” instead of “offensive” in your OP.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Sean_A on June 20, 2022, 02:06:55 AM
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.

One thing that I didn't realize until I read about Ouimet's loss of amateur status was that anyone who caddied for money after the age of 16 would also lose their am status.  That's crazy. 

Maybe that explains why the caddies were all so young in the old pics.

That was about controlling access. Very much in the same way country clubs controlled membership access. In some ways this golden age of golf wasn't very golden.

Ciao
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Kyle Harris on June 20, 2022, 11:39:33 AM
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.

One thing that I didn't realize until I read about Ouimet's loss of amateur status was that anyone who caddied for money after the age of 16 would also lose their am status.  That's crazy. 

Maybe that explains why the caddies were all so young in the old pics.

That was about controlling access. Very much in the same way country clubs controlled membership access. In some ways this golden age of golf wasn't very golden.

Ciao


All of this.

As for the miltary? There's an inherent trust in the government to establish policy lacking that makes being in the military appealing.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 20, 2022, 12:18:00 PM
The worst golfer I ever met grew up at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis. No one cares.


I’m starting to think you meant “pleasing” instead of “offensive” in your OP.


Relax. He’s a two time Major champion dear friend of mine.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on June 20, 2022, 02:32:56 PM
My friend and I played Royal Liverpool about 7 years ago.  After we were finished, the caddies asked us if we would like to go upstairs and have a drink and play snookers.  I mention that I thought that was for members only and the caddies tell us not to worry, they are members.


A lot of caddies are members. Almost all, if not all of the caddies at Dornoch are members.  I played Nairn with a couple of older members who caddied in the summer to supplement their retirement incomes.
One of the caddies at Cabot Links is (not sure if he is still there) John Wedge who is the retired chief of surgery at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto and a member of Rosedale Golf Club, the hoity-toitiest club in Canada.  https://fairwaysgolf.ca/2016/10/24/john-wedge-how-i-spent-my-summer-vacation/
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Ben Sims on June 21, 2022, 01:55:02 PM
The worst golfer I ever met grew up at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis. No one cares.


I’m starting to think you meant “pleasing” instead of “offensive” in your OP.


Relax. He’s a two time Major champion dear friend of mine.


That’s funny.


I was rather hoping you’d engage on the question. I think it’s an important one. The Ouimet story is pretty funny if you really think about it from a perspective of class and exclusion.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 21, 2022, 02:00:41 PM
I was concerned my post displayed a lack of respect for the military.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Ben Sims on June 21, 2022, 02:10:41 PM
I was concerned my post displayed a lack of respect for the military.


I didn’t read it that way, but I’m not sensitive to it.
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Jim O’Kane on June 21, 2022, 03:24:52 PM

Love this.


For the record, the course was "ranked" #12 in the world at one point!!


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/)


And yes, $32 + $4 reservation fee :)


http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees (http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees)


This just made my bucket list.


Mine too!
Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 21, 2022, 04:54:53 PM

Love this.


For the record, the course was "ranked" #12 in the world at one point!!


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/)


And yes, $32 + $4 reservation fee :)


http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees (http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees)


This just made my bucket list.


Mine too!


Friendly reminder, I am a nut and a realist. See this thread and my last post:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54925.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54925.0.html)


There is something like 4 original holes left:


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7lCd_TWEA0D6k4?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7lCd_NWYAAtzzQ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Title: Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on June 23, 2022, 08:52:44 AM

Love this.


For the record, the course was "ranked" #12 in the world at one point!!


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/)


And yes, $32 + $4 reservation fee :)


http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees (http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees)
True, but it is no Foulpointe!